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Showing content with the highest reputation on 05/16/18 in all areas
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We Ok lets look at the Entire body of work: 2012 off-season. His first big free agent move was overpaying and wasting cap space on Brandon Prust. At the same time he made this move, he was overpaying Travis Moen, a contract he'd later have to dump, taking back the decrepit body of Sergei Gonchar just to get rid of him. 2013 off-season The next year, he took Michael McCarron in the first round, and Connor Crisp in the third round. Both for their character. More talented players like Anthony Duclair, and Pavel Buchnevich were available in the third round but had character concerns. He then signed Douglas Murray and George Parros in the off-season. He allowed Michael Ryder to walk, instead signing Daniel Briere. Later Briere was shipped out and Parenteau brought in. At the 2015 deadline Defense was improved with Petry. We needed more scoring.. what did we add for forwards... character in Torrey Mitchell, Bryan Flynn, and Devante Smith-Pelley 2015 off-season after we failed to score enough goals. We brought in Fleischmann and Semin instead of you know... talent. 2016 we flamed out. Subban was traded for Weber We overpaid for Andrew Shaw We signed Radulov, but only one year cause character was a question At the deadline when we needed scoring, we instead got Martinsen, Ott, Nolan, Benn. 2017 we let markov and radulov walk we grabbed character in Alzner. There are a shit ton of moves that can be traced back to ####ing character.4 points
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On a different (but similar) note. I hate the team, but I look at what Bill Belichick does every single year in New England and it works. never trade up. Trade down and get more picks whenever possible. Statistically people overvalue the trade up. I already hear a ton of people saying we should trade 35 and 39 for a pick in the mid-twenties... thats dumb. Accumulate picks... take more swings... the more second rounders you have, the better. We have 4... if two become top 6/top 4 players and two bust out, we are already ahead of the game. There are a ton of centres and puck moving D in the second round. Guys who have real potential, but have one or two small flaws to work on. Take 4 of them... and figure out if a couple can fix that issue. There is very little statistical difference in players making the NHL and being impact players drafted at 25, or drafted at 30-40.... so keep the extra picks.2 points
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Tinordi and Crisp were two of most recent trade-ups...how did that work? When were more skilled guys available, without trading up at all. But, I still think was a push from Molson to add size, so his team wouldn't be called smurfs any more. No, likely better value to trade down or even to next year's draft, to trade up you need to overpay in pick value. Here are two of a hundred different draftpick value bits: http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_NHL_Draftchart.pdf https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.7861311 point
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Drafting, trading for, and signing players with skill instead of getting Brandon Prusts, or Travis Moen, or Andrew Shaw, or Jordan Nolan, or Torrey Mitchell, or Michael McCarron or whoever it is would make this team better. Question... if this team drafted Shea Theodore instead of Michael McCarron, would that have solved the hole at LH Puck-moving defence? Would theodore have made a good partner for Weber? if this team had drafted Jake Guentzel or Pavel Buchnevich instead of Connor Crisp, would that have helped. If we gave Radulov a long term deal from day 1, instead of a one-year prove your character deal, woudl that have helped the top 6? If we traded for a goal scorer at the 2017 deadline and re-signed him, would that have helped? Would any of the players we could have gotten 3 or 4 years ago, been able to be traded for better talent than Zach Kassian, or the rotting corpse of Sergei Gonchar? It all has an effect when you use your resources (cap space and draft picks), on taking character over talent.1 point
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I think the point may be that the message from management has been that their is a character or atitude problem. Not that there's a talent problem. That would put it squarely on MB shoulders. He deflects by saying there is a character problem and then proceeds to sign character players. I agree that the first pairing right d is not the reason that the team sucks. But it wasn't before either, so why make the trade in the first place?1 point
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If they are trying to sell the pick then somebody will move up and get Svechnikov. I'd rather it be the Habs that does than anyone else.1 point
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These are definitely concerns. This forum has said that is all about the unauthorized donation. But you can't ignore the fact that he had so many fights with team mates. And it may seem petty, but how the heck do you not nominate pk as your teams choice for king Clancy on the year that he made a Canadian record setting charity donation. That was the team voting that. I like to look at both sides. Don't like the trade overall. Miss PK and goes mobility. Don't miss the on ice dramatics like going down ad though he were shot. Don't care about celebrations. Question if there were some cancer issues sometimes.0 points
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Because some guys are on their own program, a headache to the team and just gotta go. You didn't hear one complaint from any of players, just fans who can only speculate and make up reasons based on very little.0 points
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You were implying that one of the reasons Montreal sucks is because of Subban for Weber. That's where we disagree. Having one elite #1 right defenseman instead of another isn't why they were so bad. One of the reasons is the #1 elite defenseman we have was injured in the 1st game of the season, played well for a couple dozen games and then was shut down with said injury. Name me a team that doesn't suffer because of a loss like that. Everything is amplified here because of certain circumstances and it is being twisted into false evidence. Along with Weber, losing Radulov and Markov for nothing, Carey Price playing worse than the waiver wire backup goalie and a coach who doesn't seem to have pulse on this team are the reasons the team failed this year, not Subban for Weber. If you want to talk about other problem character players on the team, I'll give you Karl Alzner. Dumb signing, way overpaid and for too long. Andrew Shaw is a good hockey player. Maybe a bit overpaid but a meaningful player who can produce. What's wrong with Jordie Benn for a million per season? And why bother mentioning the other bums? Let's talk about who was brought in. How about the supposedly bad character Jonathan Drouin, he is fairly talented. Jeff Petry would be considered a skilled defenseman. Thomas Vanek can stickhandle in a phone booth. Drafting Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Mete, Hudon, Andrighetto, Reway, and Scherbak indicates hope for talent. Signed Radulov and offered him an equal extension that was turned down. I don't think he signed Ales Hemsky to put up points with his character. Long before he was captain, the talented Max Pacioretty was signed to one of the best deals in hockey. The character and attitude narrative is blown out of proportion. One trade and a few soundbites don't corroborate with the entire body of work.0 points
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- This first point is blah. Nate Schmidt is better suited than Dustin Byfuglien for today’s NHL. I’d still rather have Dustin Byfuglien on my top pair. - Weber is elite in areas that our team would lack without him. - Perhaps he was. This can be twisted as a justification for the move or an outrage against the move depending on one’s position. - Signing Semin and Kassian shined a bright light on Bergevin’s lack of view and yet people home in on this. People always talk about puck moving defensemen but it’s on our left hand side that we really need one. At the time of the trade, we had Markov and Beaulieu. Not replacing either of them (though beaulieu turned out to suck) and then trading Sergachev is a bigger issue than having traded Subban. The Habs did well last year. - Weber can change the momentum of the game in one play. - It was already mentioned that Subban is “built for today’s NHL” and here’s the same argument again. Weber can play in the NHL today, trust me. Finally, let’s not forget that Subban truly has no apparent issues of his own on the ice according to some people. Absolutely none, whatsoever. Vegas has Brayden McNabb as their top pairing right defense. Tampa Bay has Dan Girardi as their top pairing right defense. Winnipeg has Josh Morrisey on their top pair. Washington has Michael Kempny on their top pair. ... and we’re complaining about having Weber? ”This trade was never about Weber” ”We’re not complaining about Weber” People sure are, when the most common angst against the trade is that Subban is an elite puck mover. That’s an indirect critism of an apparent weakness in Weber’s game. People can continue to hate the trade, but it’s not the issue with our team, nor is it even at the core of the issue. Weber wasn’t even here for most of this season, so it’s easy pickings right now.-1 points
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If I were to beg the question of what exactly a puck moving defenseman is and how it is represented in the difference in skill level of Weber and Subban I would get a myriad of answers. Someone would say it’s someone who can make a nice first outlet pass outside of the zone. Another would chime in that it’s a defenseman who can skate the puck out of their blue line into the other team’s zone. Another would state that it’s something that is demonstrated by corsi; your team has more possession and shots when the given player is on the ice. Another would disagree and state that it’s really only something you can distinguish with your own eyes. The first one is something both Weber and Subban are capable of. The second one is something Subban rarely does anyway, despite people thinking he does. Of course Weber does not either. The only problem with corsi is that one can be tied down with a worse player or be brought up by another player. Weber has also had his rough share of partners while on the Habs. Subban has as well, this isn’t a competition between the two. But he has also had phases with very solid defensive partners as well as forward units. Finally, the eye test can have confirmation bias. People see what they want to see, or they only watch at the wrong times. What I see here is people clamoring for what they perceive we don’t have, and it leads to irrationality. First of all, Weber isn’t as terrible a puck mover as people say. Second of all, we need a left handed defenseman to be the brilliant puck mover. If Weber is indeed worse at moving the puck, we need to find someone to compliment him rather than complain that he isn’t one or even that we don’t have one. There are weaknesses in Subban’s game as well and one can be damn sure that Ekholm does things better than Subban as well as differently, and they compliment each other. Give Subban Nate Schmidt as a partner and id be quite interested in how things turn out. These Ekholms and Emelins have a contrast in style with Subban. As for Girardi and Weber as a top pair, it’s first of all impossible since they are both right defense. That’s the point, we need a left handed defenseman on our team. Second of all, last year we had Weber and Emelin on the top pair at times and while I hated it, it didn’t seem to hurt us in the standings. Again, the issue there was Emelin on the top pair. Not our top pair right handed defenseman.-1 points
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It's almost comical that I should be accused of accepting mediocrity when you are literally the one who wants the Habs to tank for the next few years, with part of the reason obviously being wanting Bergevin to get fired. That's really strong grounds for producing productive analysis for the betterment of our team. I won't get into the discussion on Price, other than to say I'm happy our team has the problem of having potentially the best goalie in the world. It's a problem people bring up in various ways but as long as he actually remains at his potential high level, that's a good thing. On the other extreme, if people really think he's the only reason our team has a chance at being successful and people truly want to rebuild, Price is the one who should be used for a good return. I don't agree with this stance but it will quiet down those who think our management is actually blinded themselves by the Price factor. All I've done is indirectly suggest that Weber and the 19 goals he would have scored this year are not a problem and are great to have. In addition to that, I've tried to suggest that we should keep our best players and use the available cap space to surround them by better players. With that simple solution, the habs are automatically a better team next year than they were this year, which doesn't say much, but they will be better on paper and not just in the standings. Trade our best players as I've seen you suggest, and the Habs will certainly be worse for at least another year... But at least Bergevin may get fired. I'm not the one who wants to accept mediocrity. I see it the other way.-1 points
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I also think the most recent attitude thing is stupid but you don’t have to be in the room to see how the Habs handled things once they got scored on. They broke down. That in and of itself is an attitude thing, or at the very least a mental thing. I also acknowledge that the team wasn’t great on paper and that it was Bergevin’s fault but I sometimes think that words that come out of Bergevin’s mouth, while they are stupid, also get lost in the way the he says them.-1 points
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A pointless lateral move at best, justified by complete balderdash about "character." Indeed, a big part of the reason that that trade was so enervating was precisely that it had absolutely zero to do with hockey and everything to do with an ossified management's ego. Other than that, it's been less about trading away talent for character and more about high-profile plodders like Alzner, Benn, and even Shaw, not to mention McCarron, bums like Ott and King, etc., without bringing in a critical mass of talented players to make us overlook his asinine self-justifications about "character" and "attitude."-1 points
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You're talking about 3rd and 4th players from 5 years ago as if that's why this team currently sucks. What "character instead of skill" guys are currently in our top 6 that are hindering the performance of the team?-1 points
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Sure they do some different things. But honestly... the #1 reason for the trade was off-ice character considerations. Its been part of every report on the trade. Every story... whether it's the King Clancy stuff.. or the whispers of fights with teammates, or the Bergevin press conference, or the talk of how Weber is a leader, or the fact that the Analytics were heavily swayed in Subban's favour but Bergevin ignored them saying that it was more than just the numbers, or the coach banning the triple low five, or the fact that no one from the organization showed up at the hospital for his announcement, or the fact the team didn't like the PK76 branding that he's done, and on and on. The price interview about the trade with Friedmann, Gallagher's comments on Subban this year, all of it is about character. Or the reports that Bergevin was concerned about Subban having too much power after his no trade clause kicked in. Or Therrien calling out subban in the media. The marinaro report the next day that was a total attack on Subban that came from "inside sources"... all of it. Its simply not a believable narrative that the Character issue was anything less than the #1 reason for that trade. If you believe anything else, I'd like to sell you my ownership stakes in the brooklyn bridge, or perhaps some florida everglades waterfront property. As for complaining about downvotes... join the club... I've been downvoted twice for my post above and 5 times for the post on Weber/Subban last week, so don't cry to me about downvotes on the issue.-1 points
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Unauthorized donation???? Really??? A hockey player needs authorization from his hockey team to make a large donation??? Are we talking about an employer-employee relationship, or a master-slave relationship??? Or I guess since Subban is black, he should have checked with his masters!!!??-1 points
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Boy I’m sure the hawks should have traded Kane for his issues with teammates and cab drivers??. Could have avoided all of th hassles like winning a friggin cup. could it be that he is more coachsble, because he is actually has a legitimate coach and not some ex-bouncer bafoon who likes to make up stories about his broken hearted captain crying in his arms?-1 points
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Yes only goals matter in hockey. The assists that lead to those goals are irrelevant? thats why Gretzky was so useless once he stopped leading the league in goals. Maybe the kings should have kept Nichols and traded Gretzky? hmm, I wonder who usually has more assists - Subban or Weber??-1 points
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It’s not true. One can say that character and an attitude were part of the reasons of the trade but there are things Weber does better than Subban. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Simple as that.-2 points
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Bullshit.. If you honestly believe character wasn't a huge consideration in that trade, I don't know what to tell you, other than calling bullshit on that premise. Character was by far the #1 reason, not just some minor consideration. The goals was the smaller consideration, but far and away was the lockerroom/off-ice issues. if you don't believe that, you haven't been paying attention.-2 points