The Great Canadiens Gripe Thread

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

We probably wouldn't be discussing this game like we are now if Gainey did deal Souray.

True, but as I said all along, who gives a shit? The point is to WIN THE STANLEY CUP not finish 8th, squeak into the playoffs, and then get blown out in 5 games. Trading Souray could have yielded a young stud who could have anchored our roster for years. However, this is an old debate, it's water under the bridge.

Edited April 8, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[sbhatt]

4. Gainey made a HUGE mistake in not dealing Souray. That is obvious and has been all along.

I'm not impressed with the job done by Gainey either....nor Carbonneau. If the plan is to run a 'rebuilding' team out there, or if that's just what ends up happening because no free agents want to sign in Montreal, this team won't be worth watching next year.

[PB]

Many topics will be proposed in order to explore various aspects of our season and why the team

has regressed this season.

Any thoughts on the Carbonneau experience ?

Here are some of mines.......I am not a connoisseur on this topics (or any) and that's why I am proposing it.

First I thrusted the coaching selection BECAUSE Gainey made it.........on the other hand Gainey's goal (from his words ) is always to improve the team over its previous season and to go further in the playoffs.

It didn't work out this year.......and unlike the last two seasons the CH failed to qualify.

I think that the regression is relate with the hiring of Carbo as a coach.

Everyone seem to suggest that a rookie coach will make mistakes.......then my question is why would

Gainey give this important job to a prospective coach that is bound to make mistakes........ovbiously mistakes are never welcome under any circumstances......looking at Carbo this year I am failing to see as to why the CH should have been givin to him to become his training ground ? There was a price to pay and I wonder about the logic behing it.

We missed the playoffs,......the team never found itself during the season,.......never showed that it had acheived a basic sens of identity and cohesion in its play......I never had the impressions that the team was learning throught the season and progressing as a result of it.......and not unike many people I thought that his approach or system didn't produce meaningfull results and that it also made hochey boring to watch......and that is a very bad resulting combo.

He didn't use Kostsitsyn until two players were injured and only at the very end of the season...........he also passed on Garbowski when our team kept free falling as if they was no tomorow.........we could have used some help and increased the scoring depth of our team........he prefered keeping Murray and Downey.......keeping them and falling with them......I have not see anything special about is coaching.......unless you tell me, I havent.

In tonight's game I saw Begin being overly-agressive from the get go early in the game......he slashed someone on the leg but no referee saw him. A little later he received two minutes for slashing......a no-no if you want to win this game. At this stage someone should have talk to him to cool him down........obviously no one did because a little later he did the worse he could ever do and got a 4 minutes for hight sticking....this cost us our lead and pretty much the playoff.

At this very point, being very early in the third all was needed was to score one goal to get even with TO but

Carbo kept playing players with minimal talents like Begin, he should never have even for a second.....the best offensive players should have doubled shift until the bitter end.......instead amazing enought kovalev

was practically left on the bench in the third........and was not even used when Huet was replace by a forward at the end........no matter if Kovalev was subpart or useless during the season.......you cant decide to punish him while the team is sinking away unless a goal get scored..........this is childish.....and of course we didn't get the goal and it's over.

All and all Carbo didn't help our cause this year, he also doesn't communicate well it seems....I am dispointed of Gainey's choice.......I dont see the point.

[Habsfan24]

This team was suppose to take a step forward this season not a step backwards:(

[Habber]

Carbo's gotta Go!!!! Carbo's gotta Go!!!! Carbo's gotta Go!!!!

Can we be patient with him again..and hope for the best next year?? NOOO! Montreal is to good a hockey city to have a rookie or sophomore coach. Go hahead Bob judge Carbo on this embarrassment. there's coaches being fired for being second in the conference..a firing should be in order for someone that clollapsed from 4th to out of the playoffs.

[Habber]

I agree 100%. An experienced coach is required. Look at the Islanders. Let Nasville or Florida or LA be the breeding ground for rookie coaches.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

No offence, but punctuation exists for a reason.

As to your point: obviously Gainey believes that Carbo has the stuff to become an excellent coach. I'm sure he expected better, but I doubt that Gainey is completely surprised that Carbo had some growth pains.

It's clear that Bob did not expect this team to win this year. He is obviously prepared to approach winning as a 'process' in which his long-trusted protégé is given the opportunity to develop into a top coach, hand in hand with the young players' developing into top players.

While I've fretted over Carbo's handling of the youth this season, no one can deny that the young guns led the charge at season's end and pretty much every one of them except Perezhogin seems to be developing nicely under Carbo. Carbonneau's problems, in the end, relate more to the veterans (Samsonov, Rivet, Kovalev, perhaps even Koivu) - but in the long run that may not matter much. The future clearly resides with Pleks, Kostityn, Lats, etc.. The last two minutes against TO - vets on the bench - are a harbinger of things to come.

This was a transitional year disguised (unfortunately) as a breakthrough season. Next year, some of these young players will be asked to take charge and lead. In that context carbo might come away looking quite different.

Time will tell.

[rafikz]

Wow ; he is not alone ; some Habs players have seriously messed things up this season

-Whiny Samsonov

-Diva Kovalev

-Saku "I show up twice a month to get a standing ovation"

(Or Saku "I take stupid lazy selfish penalties" Koivu)

-Sheldon " I give a goal to the opponent for every goal I score" Souray

(Or Sheldon "my only motivation is to score PP goals to get a big contract" Souray)

-David " 6 holes" Aebischer

A SHAME !!!!

[PB]

Wow ; he is not alone ; some Habs players have seriously messed things up this season

-Whiny Samsonov

-Diva Kovalev

-Saku "I show up twice a month to get a standing ovation"

(Or Saku "I take stupid lazy selfish penalties" Koivu)

-Sheldon " I give a goal to the opponent for every goal I score" Souray

(Or Sheldon "my only motivation is to score PP goals to get a big contract" Souray)

-David " 6 holes" Aebischer

A SHAME !!!!

CMON guys lets keep this thread about the topic-----the Carbonneau experience----.

I agree that some players didn't showned up, but that is fairly commun to any team at any given time.....

take Naslund which didn't show up this year in Vancouver or teams that have had their best players missed large chunk of the season like the Devils have this year.......that didn't stop Vigneault or Julien to do their little miracle.

We were not that bad off, with what we got we where good enought to occupy the 4th position in the East......the players made it happen,......this team had some proven elements or features ( PP, goaltendind, etc) that was working in this league........the coach didn't capitalised and built on the positive we already had......an maybe lost his team by not doing so. .

[OneSharpMarble]

-Saku "I show up twice a month to get a standing ovation"

(Or Saku "I take stupid lazy selfish penalties" Koivu)

I really don't understand you people who rip on Saku. The guy is out there every night driving the zone creating scoring chances. He gets 3 - 4 assists in a night and everyone overlooks him and says "well he didn't get any goals"

You have to pay closer attention. Kovalev is the biggest waste of skin on the team, all season he slacked off and everyone kept that damn "he will show up for playoffs" mantra going WELL GUESS WHAT? He didn't!

[Dalhabs]

CMON guys lets keep this thread about the topic-----the Carbonneau experience----.

I agree that some players didn't showned up, but that is fairly commun to any team at any given time.....

take Naslund which didn't show up this year in Vancouver or teams that have had their best players missed large chunk of the season like the Devils have this year.......that didn't stop Vigneault or Julien to do their little miracle.

We were not that bad off, with what we got we where good enought to occupy the 4th position in the East......the players made it happen,......this team had some proven elements or features ( PP, goaltendind, etc) that was working in this league........the coach didn't capitalised and built on the positive we already had......an maybe lost his team by not doing so. .

Julien was fired...

[PB]

Julien was fired...

I wish Lamoriallo had waited a few more days before firing him.......according to some Julien would have

been a candidate for the Jack Adams trophe given to the best coach of the year.....this would have emphasised even more how '' particular '' Lamoriallo is.

The point is Julien, just like Landy Ruff of BUFFALO have been tested to the limit and have successfully kept

their team competing at the highest of level despite many of their best players missing for lenthy period du to injury.

[kaos]

True, but as I said all along, who gives a shit? The point is to WIN THE STANLEY CUP not finish 8th, squeak into the playoffs, and then get blown out in 5 games. Trading Souray could have yielded a young stud who could have anchored our roster for years. However, this is an old debate, it's water under the bridge.

By trading Souray we were accepting that the fact that this team wasn't good enough to make the playoffs, and he gave us no better chance. Montreal would still have ended up on the outside looking in, but they would have had a prospect and another 1st round pick while doing so

[Chips]

Hey I will be the first to admit that I was happy with Carbo coming on board as coach.

was I expecting rookie mistakes yes, was I expecting growing pains yes.

but did I expect total failure, and out right missed events with players like sammy? NO and nobody can!

the fact is that if we had won that game last night. 90% of everyone who has come out of the wood work to give there version of the truth would have been praising carbo, the sun the moon and yes RYDER!

so give it sometime before jumping to thoughts out of frustration.

some say its a game yes, but this is a professional team that needs to learn and make adjustments, they will and we should too.

we can start by accepting Carbo as a rookie coach and therefore we have no one to blame but ourselves for having shouldered him and praising him as our coach. we need to take the good and the bad, the wins and the losses.

and the habs have the off season to rethink, rebuild and re-start! we should do a little bit of that too.

GO HABS GO!

[shortcat1]

Hey I will be the first to admit that I was happy with Carbo coming on board as coach.

was I expecting rookie mistakes yes, was I expecting growing pains yes.

but did I expect total failure, and out right missed events with players like sammy? NO and nobody can!

the fact is that if we had won that game last night. 90% of everyone who has come out of the wood work to give there version of the truth would have been praising carbo, the sun the moon and yes RYDER!

so give it sometime before jumping to thoughts out of frustration.

some say its a game yes, but this is a professional team that needs to learn and make adjustments, they will and we should too.

we can start by accepting Carbo as a rookie coach and therefore we have no one to blame but ourselves for having shouldered him and praising him as our coach. we need to take the good and the bad, the wins and the losses.

and the habs have the off season to rethink, rebuild and re-start! we should do a little bit of that too.

GO HABS GO!

i agree with you, chips... this isn't the time for knee-jerk decisions...

carbonneau will have made errors, he will have been outcoached but the team could have done worse with someone else...

the 'core' will be changed somewhat, i'm certain... (i hope koivu isn't shipped out... for his penalty errors, he is a heart guy who gives it for the team...) 'core' players that might be moved on, if possible - kovalev (the most...), samsonov (the 'experiment' is over), maybe dandenault too...

markov must be resigned, bonk should be resigned and, if possible, souray too...

but, bottom line, no firesales!!!

GO :hlogo: GO!

[brobin]

opps

Edited April 8, 2007 by brobin

[brobin]

Bob,

I will keep this short and sweet buddy. You need to retool this team. Here is the bad news. You don't have any real top line talent on this team. Ryder is okay, he can score like a first liner. Kovalev.. well, he is a good pilot...

Anyway, the good news is you have a great bunch of young players. Don't get all crazy and think you have first liners there. Maybe Higgins. What you do have is a great young core of 2nd and 3rd liners, plus two 4th lines in Hamilton. So you don't need to do a 'Begin or Murray' type trade. You need to get a legitimate number 1 center and winger. Fill in the rest of the team with the young guys you have.

Defense is a mess. See if you can sign Markov and/or Souray. Good luck with that. After that, well, you have 6 number 6 defensemen. You got nothing coming up. That said, trading a top forward for next years version of Niinimaa isn't going to help. Perhaps you can trade Kovalev into a decent defensive prospect. There is a sucker born every minute... go find the sucker. (if you are not sure what a sucker looks like, check out a picture of you when Dallas called last fall..)

Goalies.. you best hope that Huet gets better next year, its a long wait for Price.

So in summary, go get those key players. Dump the old vets who have kept this team mediocre for the last 10 years. Fill the 2nd and 3rd line with our young guys.

Oh, and either dump Carbo or sit down and teach him how to coach. Little things like how to act in front of refs. How to talk to players. How to set lines. How not to ruin the morale in the room. How about the appropriate use of a time out?

Yours truly,

Ontario habs Fan.

[brobin]

I was glad they kept Souray, but it was a tough call and could have gone either way. If anything, it was a minor mistake. For all we know, he was offered crap for Souray.

The big Gainey mistakes this year was getting rid of Ribs for Niiny. If he wanted to dump Ribs, fine, but that was a brutal trade.

His failure to get a top center for this team was also a mistake.

Failing to get a goalie at the deadline to backup Abby was dumb. We got lucky that Halak played as well as he did, but I think a Belfour rental would have got us that extra point.

I also think he signed Koivu to too much money. It was clear at that point that Gainey felt Koivu was our number 1 center. Koivu just had a career season at 75 points. That is not the number one center on a top team. Thats a number 2 center. Recognizing that and moving Koivu down the depth chart would be a big step forward.

I don't blame Gainey for signing Sammy. Who knew. I do suspect that half the issue was Carbo. Sammy and Kovalev play a very offensive style and Carbo didn't want them to play that way. He also failed to communicate well with them, leading to bad feelings all around. Shame.

In any case, imo, Gainey needs to do something brilliant this summer. He needs to sign the big player and screw some other GM in a big way.

[MAK]

Dear BOB, DO NOT listen to brobin !! he said it would be brief and he turns it into a novel

see he even edited his post. !!

I'll keep mine short:

he has some good points. that Ribeiro trade looks worse every minute but I understand why you made the trade...Niinima ?? come on.

you honestly thought that samsonov would be an update to this team...every body else did too. one thing: If he unfrotunately comes back next year, could you ask him to be in shape this time ??

as for carbonneau, please be patient. there are some growing pains with a rookie coach but he'll be 10x the coach next year and a wiser man as well.

please,please,please change our D. dandenault really sucked this year. on the last pairing, we need scappers, not guys that can skate backward real fast.

and if you could bring a legit 1st liner to help saku, that would be great. also if you could send kovy home or elsewhere that would be nice too. he seems like a likeable person but he just doesn't have any juice left in the tank.

take some time too rest, Bob. it's been a rough year. we need a rested GM on draft day. heck maybe you can ruse a fellow gm like macclean and steal his draft pick.

oh by the way, I think I speak for few people here when I say that anything short a semi fianls next year we be considered failure.

ps: sign markov. If you don't my name will be pointless and I'll have to pull a bulis the habbie and call myself MAK.

Edited April 8, 2007 by marky_and_komi

[MAK]

my reply

[Nesquik]

I don't remember seeing a rookie coach win 70 matches in a season and wining the stanley cup. Look even with an other coach the habs wouldn't of even won the cup or make it pretty far, Bob got the idea of getting Carbo because he could be a good coach and he's gonna get experience and be better next year, I think Carbo proved to be able to be a great coach, in my opinion he had a very good rookie year. You guys are looking too much at his stats but he does great work around the rookies, look at Ryder, Plekanec, Latendresse, Lapierre, Komisarek, Higgins, Kostitsyn. They improved by A LOT. And he had to face a team flu, work without his first goalie, play with whiney players like Samsonov and Kovalev, and face the veterans that played like a bunch of losers this season. Carbo has to be here next season.

[brobin]

Dear BOB, DO NOT listen to brobin !! he said it would be brief and he turns it into a novel

see he even edited his post. !!

I'll keep mine short:

he has some good points. that Ribeiro trade looks worse every minute but I understand why you made the trade...Niinima ?? come on.

you honestly thought that samsonov would be an update to this team...every body else did too. one thing: If he unfrotunately comes back next year, could you ask him to be in shape this time ??

as for carbonneau, please be patient. there are some growing pains with a rookie coach but he'll be 10x the coach next year and a wiser man as well.

please,please,please change our D. dandenault really sucked this year. on the last pairing, we need scappers, not guys that can skate backward real fast.

and if you could bring a legit 1st liner to help saku, that would be great. also if you could send kovy home or elsewhere that would be nice too. he seems like a likeable person but he just doesn't have any juice left in the tank.

take some time too rest, Bob. it's been a rough year. we need a rested GM on draft day. heck maybe you can ruse a fellow gm like macclean and steal his draft pick.

oh by the way, I think I speak for few people here when I say that anything short a semi fianls next year we be considered failure.

ps: sign markov. If you don't my name will be pointless and I'll have to pull a bulis the habbie and call myself MAK.

ROFL, yours is just as long as mine...

Sad fact is, there are so many issues, it is hard to keep it short...

[BTH]

brobin, you criticize us for having a 75-point man as our leading scorer and then you glorify Ribeiro for being Dallas' leading scorer with what, 56 points. Dallas is something like 8th in the NHL and you say we cannot be a top team with only a 75-point guy. What we need is either to be outstanding in offence or defence, not pretty good in both.

Also, we had no room for him. He's clearly worse than Koivu, Plekanec filled his skates and then some as our #2 center, Bonk was superb this year and Lapierre was a pain in the ass to every team we've played. Ribeiro had no place on our team whether he had an attitude problem or not.

[brobin]

brobin, you criticize us for having a 75-point man as our leading scorer and then you glorify Ribeiro for being Dallas' leading scorer with what, 56 points. Dallas is something like 8th in the NHL and you say we cannot be a top team with only a 75-point guy. What we need is either to be outstanding in offence or defence, not pretty good in both.

No, I said that Ribs was a leading scorer on a very defensive team.. PLAYING 3RD LINE MINUTES!..... He was worth way more then Ninny and we didn't replace his 56 points. Did our 3rd line guy get 56 points? Ribs would have been 3rd on this team in points...

I don't think Ribs is a first line center either!!!!!!!!! I do notice that he fit in very well defensively for Dallas, perhaps better coaching? Think about it. He had Bonk's role in Dallas and scored 56 points, and was a plus player. (granted, he got lots of PP time, but that goes to show how good the coaches are, they use players to get the most of them).

This team is not even close to being like Dallas defensively. If you look at our team, we have a lot of young, fast skaters with decent offensive potential. Koivu is not stellar defensively either.

So on my team, Koivu is at best a number 2 guy, and we would play a more offensive style of game, to suit our players. Buffalo comes to mind......

Unless we end up with Brodeur or Luongo as our goalie, let's not pretend Koivu's totals are enough to get this team to the next level.

Oh, and I don't bring up Kovalev because he should just get dumped. He was moved to the 2nd line and he couldn't even do that....

Edited April 8, 2007 by brobin

[BTH]

His +/- is because of his team. And also because he doesn't get much even strength time.

Ribeiro, Kovalev and Souray are all similar in the way that they should all get average to low even-strength minutes and then a shitload of PP time. That's how they rack of the points. Maybe the same thing can be said for Ryder.

Our only real great players on even-strength are Bonk, Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Koivu (despite his +/-), Markov and maybe a couple of 4th line guys like Lapierre. Almost all our players seem to be specialists of either the PP or PK. That could explain why our powerplay is #1 (and our PK was for half the year) yet we must be bottom five at 5-on-5 play.