Who stays who goes?

[smon]

Without passing judgement on your post, smon -

1) Kovalev had 18 goals this season, not 14 (thanks to his back-to-back two-goal games)

2) First-line players do not have to be complete.. In fact, the majority of first-liners are one-way offensive players. The star players are usually less complete than the players who play on the other lines. The complete guys are the ones like Higgins and Plekanec who will play on the second or third lines, in most cases.

3) Kovalev never said he had a good year. In fact, he actually said he would not be able to take another year like this.

I agree with your choices, Partisan. Hannan and Drury are my favourites.

Regardless, I will never be satisfied that the team's second highest paid forward and supposedly the most talented is one who scores 18 goals a year. If there are fans out there who support that, then go ahead...but I expect better from the CH. He's a self centred dead weight at his current salary, filled with negativity, poisoning the team's younger Russians against Carbonneau and unfairly picking on two young kids in Lapierre and Latendresse. How does he rationalize his behaviour? It's just inexplicable, really.

Kovalev's offensive talent isn't suspect, but he doesn't finish as much as he should and he isn't pulling off the same moves he once did. He never really has been a scorer, sure it's nice to see a guy who dipsy doodles around, but he floats nearly the entire game, disappears in the clutch, etc. It's really a joke to consider him a first line player. He got more than enough icetime and chances this season. It's time someone else is given a shot.

Being a complete player isn't everything, of course as you mention. Let's take Michael Ryder for example, who has major shortcomings but he comes up in the clutch when the games count - e.g. the hat trick against Toronto. Where was Kovalev when the team needed him? Dreaming of golf, or some ridiculous equivalent.

Kovalev said he was satisfied with his play this season, but said he couldn't take another year in his current role. He never said he could have played better.

To be honest, I soured on Kovalev the minute he grabbed his hand in supposed pain in order to draw a penalty against the Bruins, letting Glen Murray race off to score the overtime winner. Souray nearly beat him up in the dressing room after, and I'd have done the same. I'm not alone in this view, Red Fisher was quoted as thinking more or less the same thing in the Gazette recently.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I disagree with the premise of this thread. 'Clearing dead weight' sounds great but you have to REPLACE players with someone better. Addition by subtraction, except in rare cases, is terrible math.

Sammy has burned his bridges, clearly. Kovalev, what can I say. He was a PPG player with us in 2005-06. That's pretty damned good production and about what you get for $4.5 mil these days. (I don't care whether he's *capable* of more. The point is that such production would make a positive difference for us). Can he do it again? It depends on his knee - which I still think is damaged - and his attitude. Certainly, the Habs braintrust should have a long, honest sit down with him, and see whether at least some of his concerns might be at least partially accommodated. It might also be worth sussing out Koivu and Souray, confidentially, on how Kovalev is viewed by his teammates. If he's widely viewed as toxic, then he definitely does have to go. If the room doesn't loathe him, and his knee is good, then we should make a good-faith effort to get him back to form. Otherwise we throw away 80 points.

[PB]

Timonen and Rafalski are both UFAs... seeing how Nashville has pettered out fast in the playoffs and Foppa/Kariya might not return, I'd really like Bob to make a strong pitch to sign Kimmo. Saku could try to help out, if he's so damn tired of rebuilding than he should do a little extra curricular activities and work to bring in UFAs.

The house is a little to messy for Koivu to confidently go out there and personally recommand free agents to joined their destiny to ours. Koivu has already expressed his frustrations with the negative results and poor acheivements this organisation as provided the team thus far ( the lost of prospects, bad untimely players exchanges, signing the wrong UFAs...or the wrong coach....or both,....missing the playoffs ).....and the possible damaged cap space ahead or the uncertainty resulting from not having signed our own best free agents during the season, is nothing reassuring as to what awaits the CH the next couple of years or the free agents adventurous enought to join in.

[MAK]

I disagree with the premise of this thread. 'Clearing dead weight' sounds great but you have to REPLACE players with someone better. Addition by subtraction, except in rare cases, is terrible math.

Sammy has burned his bridges, clearly. Kovalev, what can I say. He was a PPG player with us in 2005-06. That's pretty damned good production and about what you get for $4.5 mil these days. (I don't care whether he's *capable* of more. The point is that such production would make a positive difference for us). Can he do it again? It depends on his knee - which I still think is damaged - and his attitude. Certainly, the Habs braintrust should have a long, honest sit down with him, and see whether at least some of his concerns might be at least partially accommodated. It might also be worth sussing out Koivu and Souray, confidentially, on how Kovalev is viewed by his teammates. If he's widely viewed as toxic, then he definitely does have to go. If the room doesn't loathe him, and his knee is good, then we should make a good-faith effort to get him back to form. Otherwise we throw away 80 points.

He only got over 80 pts once and he was only a line with straka and lang. their first line at the time was jagr, lemieux and whoever else.

I don't think he'll be able to score over 65 points no more: he's slower, bad knees and clearly he doesn't get the same supporting cast.

now, if there was a way to get lang at a cheap price, I'm all for it. he would be good to kovalev but they wont be as good as they were 7-6 years ago.

[Pierre the Great]

how many times do I have to say it.

Kovalev is not a go to player. He's a good player yes, but his role/fit on a team shouldn't be a top winger. He's not that, never has been. His numbers in Pittsburgh reflect the team and the players around him.

so please as they say in economics adjust for inflation. thank you.

[JoeLassister]

What about BG making a move a la Pierre Lacroix in 2001 (Roy, Blake, Sakic). Meet Souray, Markov and Komisarek at the same time in an office with their agents and try to get those 3 accept a litle less money to play in a good team. Komi and Markov a 5 years deal and 2 for Souay... would be nice.

[Chris]

The problem is the Habs aren't a good team. 3 playoffs in 8 years isn't good.

Unless you meant packaging them to different good team.

[PB]

The problem is the Habs aren't a good team. 3 playoffs in 8 years isn't good.

Unless you meant packaging them to different good team.

Blunt yet sharp and funny....keep them coming bad boy.

[BTH]

Well the idea is that they sign for less and then you have more caproom to bring in the necessary players to make you a good team.

[Chris]

Thanks PB, i'll try.

The Habs just need to keep building from within and STOP looking for 1 player to save the team. The team is heading in a good direction and has very good youth. When they start winning the big boys will look at Montreal as being a good place to play.

[JoeLassister]

Well the idea is that they sign for less and then you have more caproom to bring in the necessary players to make you a good team.

right on

[PB]

What about BG making a move a la Pierre Lacroix in 2001 (Roy, Blake, Sakic). Meet Souray, Markov and Komisarek at the same time in an office with their agents and try to get those 3 accept a litle less money to play in a good team. Komi and Markov a 5 years deal and 2 for Souay... would be nice.

A little less money to be in a BONA FIDE CUP CONTENDIND TEAM was more like it in Colorado those days.....

but hay,....Bob could always give it a try.

[Bullsmith]

Thanks PB, i'll try.

The Habs just need to keep building from within and STOP looking for 1 player to save the team. The team is heading in a good direction and has very good youth. When they start winning the big boys will look at Montreal as being a good place to play.

Amen to this. Couldn't agree more. Of course we'd all love a big, impact centre or a puck-moving defenceman who's competent in his own end. But free agents aren't going to turn this team into a consistent winner- good drafting and solid player development are.

[JoeLassister]

Amen to this. Couldn't agree more. Of course we'd all love a big, impact centre or a puck-moving defenceman who's competent in his own end. But free agents aren't going to turn this team into a consistent winner- good drafting and solid player development are.

We have now good drafting and solid development with Grabovski, Kost brothers, O'Byrne, Emelin, etc. I think it's time for a big UFA who could possibly turn this team around.

[Chris]

1 great player isn't going to do it.

There is alot of garbage that needs to be taken out before this team is one player away. Alot of that garbage has several years left on contracts.

[PB]

We have now good drafting and solid development with Grabovski, Kost brothers, O'Byrne, Emelin, etc. I think it's time for a big UFA who could possibly turn this team around.

Absolutely.

Building a contender depends on how successfull a GM is with his aquisitions.

The Draft, the Trade, the UFA Market,......the GM's Saint-Trinity.

You dont get where BUFFALO and OTTAWA are today without steadily registering successfull aquisitions from those THREE sources,......its a pre-requisite,.......no teams can ever get there without their organization winning those battles first.

Althought we losted some of the prospects that Gainey inheritated from the previous organizations when

he took over, ( Beauchemin, Hainsey ) and that some were traded defavourably, (Hossa - Murray)

most are doing doing fine, ( Ryder, Komisarek, Higgins, Plecaneck, Perezhogin, A. Kostsitsyn, LaPierre )

and there is plenty of room for hope about the futur if what we saw from Latendresse, Havlak and Garbowski are any indication of what Gainey's own crop of draftees will be looking like.

A big successfull aquisition from the UFA market would be ideal at this point,

( better than one obtained from trading of course ) but, as we know much too well, it isn't being easily acheived in here as it is difficult to attrack them since we are not one player away from being a serious contender, yet it will have to be done one day,.......the sooner the better, yes,....is it feasible under our circumstance ? ( the dead weight and all ).....I doubt it.

Edited May 1, 2007 by PB

[JoeLassister]

a kind of Brière (or any real 1rst center) for 3 years or more would be AWESOME

[PB]

a kind of Brière (or any real 1rst center) for 3 years or more would be AWESOME

Which top center would come here to play with Kovy under Carbo,.....you see UFAs of pedigree

have numerous choices in term of destinations.....Montreal is a little too shaky and unpredictable

as it stand right now.....I doubt things to be different when the UFA market opens.

[JoeLassister]

Which top center would come here to play with Kovy under Carbo,.....you see UFAs of pedigree

have numerous choices in term of destinations.....Montreal is a little too shaky and unpredictable

as it stand right now.....I doubt things to be different when the UFA market opens.

No doubt if I was a center player, i'd go to WASHINGTON. Playing with Ovechkin is awesome for a hockey player.

[Bullsmith]

We have now good drafting and solid development with Grabovski, Kost brothers, O'Byrne, Emelin, etc. I think it's time for a big UFA who could possibly turn this team around.

I would love this team to bring in a real star, but let's not restrict ourselves to UFAs. For one thing Bob's a better trader than he is a signer. He's overpayed for underachieving free agents throughout his career as a GM, it's his biggest weakness. For another thing, we have all the assets needed to make a trade to a bottom dweller- cheap young talent and an abundance of picks. Bigtime franchise players do get traded in this league. Hell, Brian Burke alone has made deals to get Pronger in Anaheim. He brought in Naslund and Berttuzzin in Vancouver,( the latter of whom turned into Luongo. ) He wheeled at the draft to get both Sedin twins.

UFA's aren't the only way to go.

[Tony]

Well, no idea where to put this but I guess here's good for now.

Quick Sheldon Souray update (heard this on Sport 30 during a Gainey interview):

Bob hasn't started any talks him with yet because he's waiting for the medical briefing of his recent surgery.

[BTH]

Hmm... well that tells us that Bob is considering signing a replacement for Souray, especially if he's out for the start of the season.

Question: if Souray is announced to be out until, let's say, January, does his salary count against the cap for the first half of the season, for whatever team signs him? I doubt it. So basically, if Souray is out long-term, we can sign Markov, Souray and then still have loads of caproom for a UFA and then maybe another player. That would give us half a year to try to dump the salary.

[Tony]

First off, Souray isn't gone until January. He's fine.

And yes, it wouldn't count on the cap since he'd be on the long-term injury list. Just look at Tim Connolly for example.

[Zowpeb]

Players I'd like to see gone:

Samsonov

Bonk

Aebischer - obviously should be...

Murray

Boullion

Frankly, I still believe this team is just missing a couple of key pieces. I'm sick of watching 2nd line guys being paraded as #1 line guys. I'm also sick of watching d-men trying to move the puck who simply do not have that ability.

A good puck moving d-man, a good skating, physical, defensive depth d-man, and a top C.

Higgins-UFA-Ryder

Latendresse/Grabovsky-Koivu-Kovalev

Kosty/Perez-Plekanec-Johnson

4th line - Begin, Lapierre and whoever is left.

Komisarek

Markov

Souray

UFA

UFA

Dandenault

Streit

Huet

Halak/Danis

If this team had a 90 point, top line C to play with Ryder and Higgins we'd have a legit top line. Our 2nd line would have 3 guys who could be 65 point players. Our 3rd line would have 3 guys who can play in their own end, as well as put up 45+ points each. We have all the players needed to play around a top line C...it's like we have a San Jose without a Thornton.

Our D has 1 good puck moving d-man in Markov, 1 great PP guy in Souray, 1 good skating, physical guy in Komi and then the wheels fall off. The Habs need another 2 guys, one with similar skill sets to Markov but a tier below him and one with similar skill sets to Komisarek. Without that, this D is a problem...those players likely aren't ready from our system so the choice is to sign the UFA's or wait.

There isn't a lot of dead weight. It's a matter of no blue chip, high end talent, and a lack of quality depth on our D...we have a D that is, overall, very average defensively and simply can not support our skilled forwards. We want to see more scoring but there is only 1 d-man who can be counted on to get them the puck in a good position...and that's Markov.

[ShortHanded]

Players I'd like to see gone:

Samsonov

Bonk

Aebischer - obviously should be...

Murray

Boullion

Frankly, I still believe this team is just missing a couple of key pieces. I'm sick of watching 2nd line guys being paraded as #1 line guys. I'm also sick of watching d-men trying to move the puck who simply do not have that ability.

A good puck moving d-man, a good skating, physical, defensive depth d-man, and a top C.

Higgins-UFA-Ryder

Latendresse/Grabovsky-Koivu-Kovalev

Kosty/Perez-Plekanec-Johnson

4th line - Begin, Lapierre and whoever is left.

Komisarek

Markov

Souray

UFA

UFA

Dandenault

Streit

Huet

Halak/Danis

If this team had a 90 point, top line C to play with Ryder and Higgins we'd have a legit top line. Our 2nd line would have 3 guys who could be 65 point players. Our 3rd line would have 3 guys who can play in their own end, as well as put up 45+ points each. We have all the players needed to play around a top line C...it's like we have a San Jose without a Thornton.

Our D has 1 good puck moving d-man in Markov, 1 great PP guy in Souray, 1 good skating, physical guy in Komi and then the wheels fall off. The Habs need another 2 guys, one with similar skill sets to Markov but a tier below him and one with similar skill sets to Komisarek. Without that, this D is a problem...those players likely aren't ready from our system so the choice is to sign the UFA's or wait.

There isn't a lot of dead weight. It's a matter of no blue chip, high end talent, and a lack of quality depth on our D...we have a D that is, overall, very average defensively and simply can not support our skilled forwards. We want to see more scoring but there is only 1 d-man who can be counted on to get them the puck in a good position...and that's Markov.

Not bad. I agree with quite a bit of this in terms of what we're missing, but I don't know if I'd line up the lines the way you have. First of all, I disagree that your second line here has 3 guys who could be 65 point players... I think Kovy's 65 point years are behind him, whehter it's his lack of work ethic or his wonky knee doesn't matter for this, he just won't put up those kind of numbers again. I HOPE i'm proven wrong, but i doubt it. Latendress and Grabovsky, I think they'll put up those kinds of numbers in the future, but I DOUBT it'll be starting with next season. Koivu's the only one you have there that's realistic for those numbers.