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Pierre the Great

"Reasonable Accommodations" Discussion

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religion is fine as long as it aint shoved in anyones face who isnt interested.

right on, exactly what immigrants should understand about a province wich fought hard for that fews years ago...

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No it doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, opposing the imposition of the religious opinions of any minority on the majority is simply common sense. Why should Canada be the most accomodating country on Earth? Why should immigrants be granted special privledges? Trying going to an Arabian Gulf country and get any rights and see how far you get.

it would have an validity if

Any of there insane laws were actually true in Canada

None of what they said actually happens in Canada, its Illegal all of it.

What this whole mess boils down to is a manifesto by a little town saying we hate muslims.

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it would have an validity if

Any of there insane laws were actually true in Canada

None of what they said actually happens in Canada, its Illegal all of it.

What this whole mess boils down to is a manifesto by a little town saying we hate muslims.

It all started with "frosting a gym windows" to hide females work out in gym clothes, hiding Christmas tree in an airport because some didn't like that, excluding men from prenatal courses, etc. Just some little things to accomodate the minority, but some minor things people who use to come from a family who was completely alienated by religion don't want to see/ear/feel/know anymore.

Then Herouxville said, "enough is enough, we will stop that right now by forbidding the worse thing who could happen". So they forbide stoning, excision of the clitoris, etc. That's it.

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And it goes even further... A lawyer aked for a referendum concerning "reasonables accomodements".

link in french : http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20071025...88/CPACTUALITES

translation via www.reverso.net :

Why no referendum on the reasonable settlements? It is the suggestion which made on Thursday a lawyer in front of the Committee Bouchard-Taylor, which sits for the third day consecutive to Three Rivers.

Mr René Duval, who has an experience of 17 years in the file of the rights of the person, proposed such a referendum to settle(adjust) the controversy to the reasonable settlements which rages in Quebec.

Mrs Duval does not believe that it is necessary, as suggested it on Wednesday the representatives of Hérouxville, to amend the Canadian charter to counter the religious settlements.

He also suggested to resort to the exceptional clause to shield(subtract) a possible Quebecois law on the subject from the Canadian Charter of the rights.

Mr Duval does not believe that it is necessary, as suggested on Wednesday by the representatives of Hérouxville, to amend the Canadian charter to counter the religious settlements.

Quebec would just have, according to him, to adopt a law forbidding these religious settlements and he just has to have appeal to the exceptional clause. His(her,its) law would so be subtracted from the application of the Canadian charter, and the same if the Supreme Court had to pronounce on a demand of settlement, he supported.

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So does that mean you accept the Canadian Constitution?

Anyway no you are missing the point again. What that town did was say no muslims allowed basically. All the stuff it mentioned IS ILLEGAL UNDER CANADIAN LAW.

The modern equivalent would for me to start something in Nanaimo about mormons and multiple wives and forced marriages when in fact the Mormon church doesn't do that.

That little town might as well say "french people only, no english" that's what they're saying.

This isn't "reasonable accommodation" this is racism.

I thought you would know the difference.

And if you want to change the Charter you might want to look under the Quebec Constitution where it says "freedom of religion".

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So does that mean you accept the Canadian Constitution?

Anyway no you are missing the point again. What that town did was say no muslims allowed basically. All the stuff it mentioned IS ILLEGAL UNDER CANADIAN LAW.

The modern equivalent would for me to start something in Nanaimo about mormons and multiple wives and forced marriages when in fact the Mormon church doesn't do that.

That little town might as well say "french people only, no english" that's what they're saying.

This isn't "reasonable accommodation" this is racism.

I thought you would know the difference.

And if you want to change the Charter you might want to look under the Quebec Constitution where it says "freedom of religion".

You miss the point. It's not about a specific race or religion, it's about comportements. They ain't mention muslism or any religion specifically. They mention comportements they don't want to see in their MUNICIPALITY.

And don't forget Québec's signature is still missing at the bottom of the Canadian Constitution. And for the Quebec Constitution : i would definitely (if it was up to me) clear this line who says : freedom of religion.

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You miss the point. It's not about a specific race or religion, it's about comportements. They ain't mention muslism or any religion specifically. They mention comportements they don't want to see in their MUNICIPALITY.

And don't forget Québec's signature is still missing at the bottom of the Canadian Constitution. And for the Quebec Constitution : i would definitely (if it was up to me) clear this line who says : freedom of religion.

so you want a fascist state? Where religion is banned, and freedom of choice is curtailed?

The problem is if a muslim family moved into that little town, none of that would happen because ITS ILLEGAL ALREADY.

Example again, Its lent, I'm a crazy protestant, I hate catholics, I pass a law saying no fish fries on fridays you eat meat damn it! Now is that a prejudice and hateful? You bet it is.

Or the same would be its a catholic state and everyone must become catholic or they will be jailed. That's not freedom.

What you are implying is that you don't want your province to be free.

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so you want a fascist state? Where religion is banned, and freedom of choice is curtailed?

The problem is if a muslim family moved into that little town, none of that would happen because ITS ILLEGAL ALREADY.

Example again, Its lent, I'm a crazy protestant, I hate catholics, I pass a law saying no fish fries on fridays you eat meat damn it! Now is that a prejudice and hateful? You bet it is.

Or the same would be its a catholic state and everyone must become catholic or they will be jailed. That's not freedom.

What you are implying is that you don't want your province to be free.

No i want my province to be free of mind, NO RELIGION bottom line, not only in my province, IN THE WHOLE WORLD. Think with your brain only, not on the basis of Coran, Bible, whatever book or doctrine who apply there. FREE OF MIND. But it will never happen because religion is too inked in the differents societies.

So, instead, i'd rather vote a law which assigns to nobody the right to evoke or to show any religion except the limits of his property. I'd do it tomorrow morning man. I can't stand the fact that religion can be the source of problems such as disease or natural catastrophe, cuz yes, people die for religion. At home : do what you want. In society : NO RELIGION sorry.

The real problem with province of Québec is : our local religion, who slowly dissapear as people who lived in a religious living mode begins to die, is catholicism and this religion doesn't require any special "twists" or treatments such as "no pork, wear a kirpan, woman only interact with woman, etc". so we're saying : WE DON'T WANT TO EAR ABOUT THESE TWISTS.

I'm not fascist, don't want nobody to be jailed. Just want immigrants to know and respect the fact that religion is "out" here in Québec. But, again, is it really out since a lot of immigrants and even québécois pure-laine still practice differents religions? about 50% of the population would say so... just like independance...

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you just said you hate the muslim faith. I'm sorry but that's wrong.

You can't force people to change because guess what? You force something on someone and they'll repress and grow stronger (faith wise).

and no 50% don't want to leave Canada. Its really 17%. Because know one in their right mind would give up you've got. Your like a grown adult still living at home. but that's another thread

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I think lot of people are missing the forest for the trees in this whole debate.

I dont condone what Herouxville did; or the radical racists perspective some people are expressing at the Bouchard-Taylor commission on accomodements raisonables. However this is all a backlash against the radical racism of some members from minority ethnic communities who abuses the Charter to ask for discrimatory treatment. To ask for preferential treatment based on faith is the same discrimination as to prohibit it.

In short, the various minorities who used their faith as an excuse to gain discriminatory rights and freedoms are now being faced with the fact that such a use of religion can go both ways.

In the end, the bottom line is that in order to live in a true free and democratic society, you have to keep religion out of the public space. What we see now in Quebec is the normal, natural reflex of a tolerant majority who pushes back because some minorities abused said tolerance.

The message is simple: the values (equality, justice, etc) of the majority in Quebec supersedes personal faith in the public sphere.

Take it or leave it.

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you just said you hate the muslim faith. I'm sorry but that's wrong.

You can't force people to change because guess what? You force something on someone and they'll repress and grow stronger (faith wise).

and no 50% don't want to leave Canada. Its really 17%. Because know one in their right mind would give up you've got. Your like a grown adult still living at home. but that's another thread

yeah, the male supremacy over women, holy war, coran who says if you die by holy war you'll got virgins girls in paradise, yeah i guess i could say i don't like this faith. Same for anti-contraception, anti-abortion, etc for catholicism faith. I'm not racist agains 1 religon, i'm racist against all religions. Is it racism ?

and it plays around 40% right now for independance. http://www.quebecpolitique.com/sondages/s-crop-2007-09.html, but this is another thread.

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yeah, the male supremacy over women, holy war, coran who says if you die by holy war you'll got virgins girls in paradise, yeah i guess i could say i don't like this faith. Same for anti-contraception, anti-abortion, etc for catholicism faith. I'm not racist agains 1 religon, i'm racist against all religions. Is it racism ?

and it plays around 40% right now for independance. http://www.quebecpolitique.com/sondages/s-crop-2007-09.html, but this is another thread.

that's a certain sect you are painting people with a wide stroke.

I could name a christian, jew and easily official athestic societies that persecute people for no reason other then they're something they don't like.

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I don't see how PQ can go from hated to loved in over a couple weeks. Plus, referendum era is over, your province is a in a mess, it can't even fix its own infrastructure. Plus even if the poll is true, its probably due to frustration, like all those polls are in Quebec. You could do the same poll in BC, Alberta, Newfoundland and get the same result.

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I heard about Gazi yeah. A teacher ever told us he was very radical, but, from what my teacher told me (10-15 minutes) he separated the politic and the spiritual, how do you say "laïciser" in english?, gave women's right to vote and made Turkish a mordern society. Now, this country is knocking on UE door... But i don't really know about his "radical" measures, can you suggest me a book or something?

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i have no idea on books

but yeah he separated mosque and state

a great man so.

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GREAT thanks. I tend to forget that wikipedia even exists. This is freakin complete.

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Well, I think it's a little ridiculous that Herouxville's people have nothing better to do than pass silly charters against immigrants.

In case you didn't know, the only immigrants who live in the town are one Swiss couple, and the only person of colour is an adopted boy from Africa.

Wow! Is there anybody circumising and stoning women? No! Have there even been cases of immigrants in Canada stoning women? Didn't think so.

Hey, the wonderful folks of Herouxville could be worrying about regional development and their poor economy, but nothing's more fun than passing bylaws against non-existent immigrants, especially Muslims, who can easily be blamed for everything.

It's kind of smart, maybe they'll get some like-minded folks to come by and visit. Maybe Minutemen. Who knows?

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i agree but their is a counter arguement that two wrongs dont make a right and canada not being a backwards fundamentalist state should show other countries like those in the middle east the way forward in multiculturalism- you agree pierre? :wacko:

There is no way forward for Canadian style multiculturalism in the Gulf. They have a tiny population of local Arabs(20% of the pop.) surrounded by expatriates who do most of the work. My point was that accomodation is fine but we should expect a certain degree of assimilation from people who want to live in Canada and become citizens. There is no reason why Muslims--OR ANY OTHER GROUP-- should be given rights or privledges that other Canadians do not receive.

religion is fine as long as it aint shoved in anyones face who isnt interested.

I think you just agreed with me.

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There is no way forward for Canadian style multiculturalism in the Gulf. They have a tiny population of local Arabs(20% of the pop.) surrounded by expatriates who do most of the work. My point was that accomodation is fine but we should expect a certain degree of assimilation from people who want to live in Canada and become citizens. There is no reason why Muslims--OR ANY OTHER GROUP-- should be given rights or privledges that other Canadians do not receive.

I think you just agreed with me.

:lol: i did indeed.

you know what pierre you have enlightened me i had a long hard think this weeknd on my political views, and i suppose people like you and i are lucky to live where we live- i moan about immigrants but at the end of the day non of us are truly of any nationality- we were just lucky to come out of vagina in the country we came out of it in all be it england or canada-so why should i hate on people who are jsut trying to do the best by them and their families?

for christs sake ill be reading george orwell novels next :blink:

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Well, I think it's a little ridiculous that Herouxville's people have nothing better to do than pass silly charters against immigrants.

In case you didn't know, the only immigrants who live in the town are one Swiss couple, and the only person of colour is an adopted boy from Africa.

Wow! Is there anybody circumising and stoning women? No! Have there even been cases of immigrants in Canada stoning women? Didn't think so.

Hey, the wonderful folks of Herouxville could be worrying about regional development and their poor economy, but nothing's more fun than passing bylaws against non-existent immigrants, especially Muslims, who can easily be blamed for everything.

It's kind of smart, maybe they'll get some like-minded folks to come by and visit. Maybe Minutemen. Who knows?

Missed the point, that's not against those already in, but those who would like to move there and adopt some "contreversial" behavior. You also, not only you but EVERYBODY, miss the point by always pointing out the "big scary" comportments like stoning. They just wrote an exhaustive list of behavior who will not be allowed in their municipality. They do not want to hide Christmas trees, to give prenatal courses where the men are forbidden, frost the windows of a gym because men can see through the window women wearing gym clothes. They also want to offer some meat in any cafeteria all year long and allow the woman doctors to cure all the men.

It's not about stoning, stoning is just the extreme limit of what has been done in the foreign countries. Herouxville, as anybody, don't expect this to happen.

It's more like: we already have rules and law, don't try to change things.

Try tohave an examination of the prostate made by a woman in Afghanistan...

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NEW TOPIC - WOMEN THE ROUTE OF ALL EVIL? Discuss....................

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