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Game Thread | Ottawa vs. Habs | 11/19/07


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Well as bad as the defense was, the Habs have scored a grand total of 5 goals in 3 games against the sens. Not going to win much doing that. The defense has been mediocre at best since the Philly game. It isn't going to get any easier from here, 3 more games this week and against teams that have better work ethic then the Habs.

Well it only took 59 and a half minutes but i did see a body check. The Habs were soft, lazy, and couldn't cover anyone in there own end. The Habs really need to watch the game film on that one, notice the Sens actually drive to the net, score goals around the net. Other then Lats the Habs are pretty much a perimeter team. this why they always have problems scoring.

Good news;

Chipchura plus 6, Lats had a decent night.

The thing that continues to confound me is why a team with Gainey, Jarvis, Muller and Carbonneau do not work hard every game, do not know how to play shut down hockey and defend leads and are terrible in the face off dot. This goes against everything these guys were as players.

Usually the traits of your coaching staff show in your teams performance. Are they bad teachers? I don't buy "it's the players" theory because I watch Lemaire and Burns turn defensively inept teams into lockdown defenders everywhere they go.

These are the things that my brain says will improve, yet I sit here and wait, and wait, and wait. Common sense says it will happen, I am just confused as to why after 100 games with this staff it hasn't.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Well Wamsley, i beleive it is the players. Especially the vets. They have been given a free ride for too many years and they developed alot of bad habits. For whatever reason it's takes these guys forever to learn things. They do it for a game or then back to the old ways.

I also think they need a real defensive coach, they have all forwards.

Now they may have a problem in teaching, like the Gretzky theory, "god given talent" on certain things you can't teach. What drived GC to be the best at what he did, talent and desire. Not everyone has it, you can't teach it, either you have it or you don't.

Too many floaters on the team still. I will give some of them credit for picking it up, but unfortunately i still think they are a year or 2 away.

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The thing that continues to confound me is why a team with Gainey, Jarvis, Muller and Carbonneau do not work hard every game, do not know how to play shut down hockey and defend leads and are terrible in the face off dot. This goes against everything these guys were as players.

Usually the traits of your coaching staff show in your teams performance. Are they bad teachers? I don't buy "it's the players" theory because I watch Lemaire and Burns turn defensively inept teams into lockdown defenders everywhere they go.

These are the things that my brain says will improve, yet I sit here and wait, and wait, and wait. Common sense says it will happen, I am just confused as to why after 100 games with this staff it hasn't.

You can't turn any player into a good defensive guy. You can make them better, and I would argue that most of them have shown improvement, but I don't expect miracles.

I think the biggest issue is we lack a true defenseman coach. Wonder if Robinson is available. :)

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Well the 4th goal would for sure not have happened becuase Heatleys shot would not have resulted in a rebound off of the checst of Price.

But then they still would have lost 4-2 becuase Alfi would have scored an empty netter.

Please watch the replay again JMMR. I think you are doing a disservice to Huet.

The guy was wide open and Huet came out and challenged him. The shot was low to far corner and it went of Huet's pad, near the toe. The rebound therefore went to the slot. There was no rebound off the chest, there was no shot to the chest.

I can say with certainty after watching the replay that the exact same rebound would have come off price or any other goalie in that situation. If Huet had not come out, it would have been a goal on the first shot. That play requires the defense to take away the slot guy and clear the rebound.

Gerber made a similar save the difference was his defense had our guys tied up and I believe it was Phillips who cleared the puck from the slot.

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Well Wamsley, i beleive it is the players. Especially the vets. They have been given a free ride for too many years and they developed alot of bad habits. For whatever reason it's takes these guys forever to learn things. They do it for a game or then back to the old ways.

I also think they need a real defensive coach, they have all forwards.

Now they may have a problem in teaching, like the Gretzky theory, "god given talent" on certain things you can't teach. What drived GC to be the best at what he did, talent and desire. Not everyone has it, you can't teach it, either you have it or you don't.

Too many floaters on the team still. I will give some of them credit for picking it up, but unfortunately i still think they are a year or 2 away.

I guess I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen Hitchcock turn Columbus into a top defensive shutdown team (5 SOs), Murray do the same in St. Louis. And they did it with Pascal Leclaire and Manny Legace in net and in a lot less time.

Burns turns every team he goes to into a solid defensive team regardless of personel, Lemaire as well.

So I don't buy the player argument. You can make it, I don't buy it.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Can't win 'em all. Sens are the best, we're not. But as long as we keep beating the good teams and the bad teams we'll stay in the top eight. Anything can happen in the playoffs so let's stop focusing on one game. Sens make everyone look bad on most nights, but hey, even they lose to the Leafs now and then.

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Right, Ted Nolan does it too. Here is the difference between them and Carbo, carbo talks about hard work and expects it. The other coaches you mention will bench anyone at anytime, these coaches will call them out publicly. Carbo only seems to bench rookies and replace them with other rookies.

Examples:

Ryder should have been benched GC didn't , the other coaches you mentioned would have.

Markov would have been sat out after taking all those penalties during the one game i forgot which one. GC wouldn't do it.

So my omly problem with GC is he needs to treat everyone the same, if Lats had a bad game he'd be sitting, why aren't the vets.

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Right, Ted Nolan does it too. Here is the difference between them and Carbo, carbo talks about hard work and expects it. The other coaches you mention will bench anyone at anytime, these coaches will call them out publicly. Carbo only seems to bench rookies and replace them with other rookies.

Examples:

Ryder should have been benched GC didn't , the other coaches you mentioned would have.

Markov would have been sat out after taking all those penalties during the one game i forgot which one. GC wouldn't do it.

So my omly problem with GC is he needs to treat everyone the same, if Lats had a bad game he'd be sitting, why aren't the vets.

Yeah, he has made some strange decisions. Like benching Rivet and not Kovalev last year.

Personally, I did not mind the game last night from the perspective that they went right at Ottawa. The only problem being, you are guaranteed to lose against Ottawa like that. This team is still searching for an identity. I thought it would be a shut down team, and I still want to see that. But I don't think they know what they do best.

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Highlight of the game!

Kovy's hit on Daniel

if an identity is missing, then we missed Kosto in our line! in our search for identity at least we needed to finish a few more hits... Alfredson and company were too happy and dandy skating from one end to another

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I'll get jumped for this one but Koivu isn't a great leader. he is a great player and person, he just doesn't make his team better with his leadership.

Complete rubbish. You simply can't judge leadership capabilities from your basement...

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Kostopolous, no slouch in the leadership department himself, called Koivu the best captain in the league. Was he just making up stories?

I'm frankly getting tired of the way every time the Habs' game dips a bit, or Koivu himself slumps, he is instantly pounced upon for 'not being a leader.' It's as if he's supposed to be Moses parting the sea of opposing players with a single wave of his hand. Any player who is NOT inspired by sitting in the same dressing room as Koivu, watching him determinedly and cheerfully give his all through an endless parade of bad teammates, catastrophic injuries and near death by cancer, is simply a jackass.

As for the team's performance lately: let's keep in mind one thing. For the first dozen or so games of this season, THIS team, with THESE players, played precisely the kind of tight-fisted, hard-working, defensively smart hockey that we associate with the coaches and GM. That showed, to me, that these players can do it, and that the coaching staff's message is finally penetrating.

However, it is - hopefully - a *process.* People don't transform their most fundamental practices overnight. Usually you make progress, then backslide a bit, as part of the process of learning precisely what it takes to operate at the desired level on a consistent basis. Hopefully the coaches can use recent games as a teaching tool, showing the players: look, the one and only way we will become a good team is by playing good defence. You can't rest on your laurels, you can't start thinking your an offensive machine.

(The worst thing that happens is those 7-4 clobberings of Boston or Carolina. They instil in the players the delusion that they have sufficient offensive skill that they can forget to do the hard defensive work. But it's hard defensive work that actually enables them to get the most of their not-inconsiderable offensive talent.)

All of which is to say that, looking at the season so far, we've seen something we haven't seen from the CH in a decade: signs of a team with some talent that is able to play bona-fide sound, winning hockey based on a strong defensive system. But we've also seen the team regress somewhat back to the dismal ways of the recent past. For me, though, the first fact is significant. It shows that this team is capable of playing at a much higher level. And I have some hope that the coaches will be able to right the ship. It might take a little while, though, because the players themselves have to internalize the message that your 'offence' ultimately starts with your defense. They bought in early, then set it aside somewhat; buy they will likely buy in again. The question is whether they will do so sooner or later.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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Last night illustrated a lack of effort to defensively contain our slot. Plekanec actually let 2 Sens go in the slot so he has some egg on his face today.

Look at Buffalo and remember MacArthur. He went to the slot like gangbusters and was rewarded. Ottawa did the same thing last night. We have to work on that for sure.

What's all this Koivu leader stuff? That's GARBAGE!

Edited by Athlétique.Canadien
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Last night illustrated a lack of effort to defensively contain our slot. Plekanec actually let 2 Sens go in the slot so he has some egg on his face today.

Look at Buffalo and remember MacArthur. He went to the slot like gangbusters and was rewarded. Ottawa did the same thing last night. We have to work on that for sure.

That's sort of what I mean...Plekanec is NOT a defensively crap player. But he was partly to blame last night. He can and will play better defensively, and so can the team as a whole (remember: we now have Hamrlik as our #1 A defenceman, not Souray); which is why we should not be too pessimistic that the team has officially returned to its abysmal ways of the past.

I'm uncomfortable with recent analyses complaining about the Habs' lack of offence. Offence will come and go; players hit slumps, as the top line has done. It's the defensive game that worries me. And I think all the hand-wringing about offence may have contributed to the team's lassitude in the defensive end lately. Get the fundamentals right, boys - goals will take care of themselves. (And it wouldn't hurt to play Kovalev more than 16 minutes a game, Guy!! :angry: )

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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I'll get jumped for this one but Koivu isn't a great leader. he is a great player and person, he just doesn't make his team better with his leadership.

Right, because you obviously:

1. know what's said and done on the ice

2. know what's said and done on the bench

3. know what's said and done in the changing room

4. know what's said and done at practice

5. know what's said and done in miscellaneous occasions in which none of us are present either

All this, despite the fact that everyone that has had contact with Koivu has unanimously said he is an absolutely great leader and contributes immensely to the team.

Conclusion: I'll assume it was the emotional 4-2 loss that clouded your judgement and pushed you to write such an ignorant comment, i won't hold it against you.

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I'll assume it was the emotional 4-2 loss that clouded your judgement and pushed you to write such an ignorant comment, i won't hold it against you.
I get the impression that Chris is one of those "losing is unacceptable" while the "TV is thrown out the window or TV is shot with a pistol" type of fans.

OK, maybe not to that extreme. If the 'TV is thrown out the window or TV is shot with a pistol' type of fan ranks as a 10, I'd give Chris a 2 :lol:

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I don't get emotional about games winning or losing. The only thing i look for is a team that plays hard and does what it takes to win.

I mean these guys get thousands of dollars every game, so for them to play hard for 24 minutes or less each night isn't too much to ask for.

Your right, i don't know what was said or done behind the scenes. I do know that it doesn't transfer to the ice. 3 playoffs in 8 years isn't good.

I don't have a problem with koivu, he's no messier on the leadership front is all i'm saying.

The ship is turning around and i like the direction of the team.

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I'm no Saku Koivu fan, but the Habs' struggles to get to the elite level have little to do with leadership. They have to do with the lack of a top-line winger that can put the puck in the net consistently (Ryder MIA), and a true #1 offensive centre. Koivu could be the greatest leader since Alexander The Great, and it wouldn't address the glaring holes in the line-up.

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Can't win 'em all. Sens are the best, we're not. But as long as we keep beating the good teams and the bad teams we'll stay in the top eight. Anything can happen in the playoffs so let's stop focusing on one game. Sens make everyone look bad on most nights, but hey, even they lose to the Leafs now and then.

Exactly. We make the playoffs in top 7, Leafs take 8th and oust them 1st round, then who cares if we can beat the Sens! :lol:

If my wife reads this I am so not getting any for awhile.

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I also disagree on the Koivu nonsense.

But I will say, people do the same thing to the goaltenders.

Here is the arguement (The team doesn't win so a) Koivu is not a leader or a winner B) the Goaltender did win it for them (make the big save, etc), therefore we need to A) Get a new leader or B) Play the other goaltender.

Both these arguments are dumb for the same reason. They ignore the rest of the team.

If the goaltender is letting in bad goals, then you change the goaltender.

If the leader doesn't lead, the team don't think he leads, etc. you replace the leader.

You can't just pin losses on a goaltender or the captain unless they are really the problem. (same goes for the coach).

Mark Messier could not have won a cup with this team in the last 10 years with the talent that was on it.

This is a team game and last night the team played poor defensively. Let's wait and see how they bounce back before we panic. Ottawa sucked on Saturday night and lost to the Leafs. They didn't panic, they came back and kicked our butts.

Let's go kick some Islander butt....

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I also disagree on the Koivu nonsense.

But I will say, people do the same thing to the goaltenders.

Here is the arguement (The team doesn't win so a) Koivu is not a leader or a winner B) the Goaltender did win it for them (make the big save, etc), therefore we need to A) Get a new leader or B) Play the other goaltender.

Both these arguments are dumb for the same reason. They ignore the rest of the team.

If the goaltender is letting in bad goals, then you change the goaltender.

If the leader doesn't lead, the team don't think he leads, etc. you replace the leader.

You can't just pin losses on a goaltender or the captain unless they are really the problem. (same goes for the coach).

Mark Messier could not have won a cup with this team in the last 10 years with the talent that was on it.

This is a team game and last night the team played poor defensively. Let's wait and see how they bounce back before we panic. Ottawa sucked on Saturday night and lost to the Leafs. They didn't panic, they came back and kicked our butts.

Let's go kick some Islander butt....

I don't understand why everybody gets so bent out of shape when somebody says Saku is not a great leader. Koivu is a good captain, he is an inspiration for fighting through cancer, returning from an eye injury and the work he does in the Montreal community.

But this team for 6-7 years has failed to work hard on a night to night basis. Like it or not that is not something you find on the mantle of a great leader. All the people that jump to his defence and say Mark Messier could not have won with this team are the same people that say TOLD YOU HE WAS A GREAT LEADER when they do win. Well what is it? Is it the team or is it the leadership?

I respect the things that Chris has to say, I don't always agree. I do not disrespect his view that Saku is overrated. I fall somewhere in the middle and see both points of view. I agree with arguments that have been made on both sides.

As far as the board saying switch goalies that has happened once this year. After the Leaf game.

If you are referring to me last night I never blamed Huet, I have been pretty constant in my praise of Price since the Calder Cup Finals. I am a big fan and I think he is better than Huet. If you disagree, so what. If you want to lump me in with that attitude go ahead. Doesn't make it true.

This team is flawed, we all knew it before the season. We all know it now. This team is slowly building and everybody here wants the process to speed up. Some people complain out of frustration, some out of ignorance, but you are lumping alot of people here together and calling them dumb. Chris does not post dumb or nonsensical ramblings and I think he has earned more respect than that.

Edited by Wamsley01
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