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Game Thread | Carolina vs. Habs | 12/08/07


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You might be right. It's not like with our fans and media, there isn't already enough negativity around the team.

I'm always curious when you get a rookie coach - zero experience whatsoever - to take over a veteran-oriented team. Coaching is a lot different than being a captain.

It really sounds like the team has totally tuned out to whatever messages come from above. Trade them, or someone is on the chopping block - increasingly no two ways about it.

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I'm calling out Christ Higgins. In the 1st period( or was it the 2nd..doesnt matter) koivu took a slashing. while koivu tried to defend himself Higgins looked the other way...thats not an assistant-worthy attitude.

I found that ryder played better. he may not have scored but he tried hard and had some good opportunities.

giving ten minutes for being the instigato of a fight to komisarek was really harsh. yet' komi should've known better. walker was already penalized on the play. komisarek should'Ve kept his cool and try to have his revenge ion the next shift.

O'byrne played like a vet and Lapierre showed exactly what is expected from him.

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I didn't see the game due to work issues, so I may be talking out of turn, but still...

I don't think firing Carbo is the answer. We've gone through Therrien, Julien, now Carbo - at some point you have to face the conclusion that the coach, whatever his strengths and weaknesses, is not the core problem. The team simply can't transcend mediocrity with its only offensive catalyst being Saku Koivu. (Don't accuse me of 'blaming' Koivu, the problem is simply that he's not good enough to carry this team offensively over a whole season; it's not his fault). Even if Koivu gets hot again and we squeak into the playoffs, it'll be the same old desperate song and dance next year, because none of our youth shows any signs of evolving into serious, elite-level offensive leaders.

I don't often say this, but I fear that it's time. Bob has to make a move. A big one. It could be Koivu for Marleau. It could be Ryder and a package for someone else. But it has to involve 'core' players, both coming and going. I know this sounds like panic, but there comes a time when assessment has to end and bold action is required. The fundamental talent simply isn't good enough for this team to be a bona fide winner, either now or in the forseeable future.

Hope I'm wrong. But haven't we suffered enough???

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I didn't see the game due to work issues, so I may be talking out of turn, but still...

I don't think firing Carbo is the answer. We've gone through Therrien, Julien, now Carbo - at some point you have to face the conclusion that the coach, whatever his strengths and weaknesses, is not the core problem. The team simply can't transcend mediocrity with its only offensive catalyst being Saku Koivu. (Don't accuse me of 'blaming' Koivu, the problem is simply that he's not good enough to carry this team offensively over a whole season; it's not his fault). Even if Koivu gets hot again and we squeak into the playoffs, it'll be the same old desperate song and dance next year, because none of our youth shows any signs of evolving into serious, elite-level offensive leaders.

I don't often say this, but I fear that it's time. Bob has to make a move. A big one. It could be Koivu for Marleau. It could be Ryder and a package for someone else. But it has to involve 'core' players, both coming and going. I know this sounds like panic, but there comes a time when assessment has to end and bold action is required. The fundamental talent simply isn't good enough for this team to be a bona fide winner, either now or in the forseeable future.

Hope I'm wrong. But haven't we suffered enough???

Stop the whining ladies.......the slabs aint that good.

EasternBi

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Stop the whining ladies.......the slabs aint that good.

EasternBi

Umm... thanks for contributing?

You can call CC's point "whining". I call it an articulate, well thought out post that was enjoyable to read. Take notes.

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Pretty bad game, but if Price stood on his head and we got some bounces it could have been close. We were outplayed, but not completely run over (only on the scoreboard, where it counts).

I couldn't understand Pierre and Yvon's incredulity at the first goal being overturned. As soon as I saw the top angle I knew it would be overturned, the puck hadn't crossed the line and it was clearly a forward movement of Streit's skate that pushed it in. Which is a shame because if he didn't touch it it probably would have gone in off the inside of the net half a second later.

Komisarek needs to stop fighting. Invariably he fights someone less valuable to the team, and in this case he took himself out of the game for a period and cancelled a powerplay. Fighting a few times a season is OK, but he's doing it too much. I'm starting to think that we need some kind of an enforcer to take the fighting majors.

And seriously, how many times this season has Higgins tried to stickhandle in front of a defenseman and gotten it pokechecked away? Every game? He needs to make better decisions out there, don't try to take the team on your back all by yourself. I don't know if he's ready for the A on his sweater yet, granted he obviously cares a lot.

And as usual, Koivu is weak.

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Why Montreal Lost This Game:

1) First of all I have to say that the War Room cost Montreal this game. That Streit goal should have of Counted. He did not kick it in. This was a pivital moment because the fans were back in the game intill the goal was waved off. For Montreal having such a delicate confidence right now it just sucked the life out of the team. Had that goal of counted i feel that the Habs would have of won the game.

2) The Refs. They were not very good last night. On one play Komisarek got hit from behind and a penalty was coming to Carolina. Then Komisarek and that Carolina guy fought. Somehow the penalties were evened up at the end of this and the teams were both skating 5 on 5. They said that Komisarek got the instigator when it was the Carolina guy who had his gloves off first. There were ots of calls that went unnoticed.

3) The Habs had no life anymore. They have no chemisty.

4) Waste of Valuable chances. The Habs had lost of chances to score and missed.

5) Two Words: Cam Ward

6) Habs players struggling. I felt that Koivu played a terrible game.

There were many more reasons but thats all the ones that I will give.

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I didn't see the game due to work issues, so I may be talking out of turn, but still...

I don't think firing Carbo is the answer. We've gone through Therrien, Julien, now Carbo - at some point you have to face the conclusion that the coach, whatever his strengths and weaknesses, is not the core problem. The team simply can't transcend mediocrity with its only offensive catalyst being Saku Koivu. (Don't accuse me of 'blaming' Koivu, the problem is simply that he's not good enough to carry this team offensively over a whole season; it's not his fault). Even if Koivu gets hot again and we squeak into the playoffs, it'll be the same old desperate song and dance next year, because none of our youth shows any signs of evolving into serious, elite-level offensive leaders.

I don't often say this, but I fear that it's time. Bob has to make a move. A big one. It could be Koivu for Marleau. It could be Ryder and a package for someone else. But it has to involve 'core' players, both coming and going. I know this sounds like panic, but there comes a time when assessment has to end and bold action is required. The fundamental talent simply isn't good enough for this team to be a bona fide winner, either now or in the forseeable future.

Hope I'm wrong. But haven't we suffered enough???

I think you are right.

Koivu is only capable of being dominant for short stretches. At times he looks unbeatable out there but most of the time he is ineffective, no matter how hard he tries.

I am starting to think that we need to dump all of our core. Koivu, Kovalev, Ryder and maybe even Markov. Not because of their play but to change the atmosphere of this team. Three quality players out, three new quality players in.

Maybe I'm panicking a little but 14 years of this is making me a sad panda.

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Well unfortunately due to a snow and ice storm i was unable to attend a Xmas party with my girlfriend so i had the night free to watch the game. Boy what a mistake i made. I thought after a few weeks of not watching them something would change but nothing did. Same old stuff different day. So i'll lay it out one more time, this team needs an ENEMA. Iread a few posts to catch up.

So here goes: These guys suck, period. No effort, no pride, no heart and no character.

Coaching: 3 problems

1, They need a defensive coach

2, GC says he expects hard work and dicipline, however he apparantly only expects it from rookies. He doesn't treat everyone the same, that is his major problem. Only benches Ryder and Lats? That's not a statement.

3. For everyone bitching about GC, may i remind everyone that AV, MT and CJ all coached this team and got the same results. NOTHING. They are all 3 now coaching playoff teams, this doesn't sound like a coaching problem, it's a lazy player problem.

Reember, this is the same coach who had this team playing awesome the first 12 games. My guess is the message hasn't changed, the players have.

PK: Absolutely pathetic Pk is about hard work so it's no mystery the habs struggle since they don't work hard. They might as well just throw out 4 pilons oout there and see if the goalie makes the stop.

Goaltending: Most people like to bash the goaltending, however i'll say it's the teams only strength. I'm a numbers guy so here goes, most NHL goalies stop between 90-95 shots out of 100. Unfortunately for the habs it takes teasm about 2 1/3 games to get to 100 shots, where it takes other teams about 3 1/2 games. Too many shots against. I feel bad for the goalies playing in front of that defensive mess.

Defense: Horrid, can they back up any more and be any softer? Carolina went through them like swiss cheese.

Forwards: Miserable: Absolutely no clue how to create offense or back check. that's not a good combination. On a team that can't score the solution is dressing 8 defeseman? WTF.

The top players are certainly not earning there money, Koivu, Markov have been miserable at best.

Good points: Hamrlik +7 on a team full of minus players. Chipchura plays very well. Surprisingly Kovalev has been pretty good.

What to do: 3 choices

1. Leave it as is. We all know what that will bring, the same as the last 10 years nothing.

2. Give up some youth to get a great player. I vote NO, the team is not one player away, it's closer to 10 players away.

3. Trade the vets and go to the youth movement. I am in favor of that.

Koivu: Has NTC, but could be moved for another struggling centre

Kovalev: can fetch you a good young forward and a 1st rounder i think.

Ryder: trade him for Torres, similar contracts and Edmonton is looking for a RW scorer. Torres lappiere Kosto looks good to me.

Smoke: Also NTC, will be tough to move

Bouillon: trade him and Brisby for whatever.

This team simply needs to grow some balls, visit the wizard to get some heart and courage. My rec team could out work these guys.

Anyway, after watching just one game in the last few weeks i think i need another vacation from these lazy slugs.

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Goaltending was the difference tonight. Price and Halak were...not very good. Cam Ward was rock solid.

The habs kept up with the canes offensively, but the difference was that Ward was robbing the habs on the doorstep while the Canes were getting goals on long shots from the point. The habs could've easily had 4 goals (esp. considering the one robbed) against a lesser goalie.

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don't you notice that ALL goalies look good against the habs? Thibaelt even shut them out. The canes dominated the habs until they backed off. They had like 19 shots after 1 period. The game was over then.

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Why Montreal Lost This Game:

1) First of all I have to say that the War Room cost Montreal this game. That Streit goal should have of Counted. He did not kick it in. This was a pivital moment because the fans were back in the game intill the goal was waved off. For Montreal having such a delicate confidence right now it just sucked the life out of the team. Had that goal of counted i feel that the Habs would have of won the game.

2) The Refs. They were not very good last night. On one play Komisarek got hit from behind and a penalty was coming to Carolina. Then Komisarek and that Carolina guy fought. Somehow the penalties were evened up at the end of this and the teams were both skating 5 on 5. They said that Komisarek got the instigator when it was the Carolina guy who had his gloves off first. There were ots of calls that went unnoticed.

3) The Habs had no life anymore. They have no chemisty.

4) Waste of Valuable chances. The Habs had lost of chances to score and missed.

5) Two Words: Cam Ward

6) Habs players struggling. I felt that Koivu played a terrible game.

There were many more reasons but thats all the ones that I will give.

Not even close.

1. The habs don't have very much talent.

2. The talent they have are not very confident right now.

3. Carolina is a much better team.

4. Goaltending didn't steal it for them.

5. coaching

The refs were fine. The first goal was kicked in, period. A blind mouse could see that. In fact, in the third they waved off a Carolina goal du e to goalie interference, but you can clearly see in the replay that it was Kovalev that hit Halek, on his own..

I don't think the answer is coaching. Carbo is no scottie bowman, but he is not the main problem with this team. He has one line to work with. He might have two lines if Ryder and Koivu were in better form, but they are not. Carbo has tried every trick in the book with that line, but at the end of the day, either Ryder and Koivu get it going or they don't. I did like ryder's intensity last night. He was checking people, causing turn overs, and creating some chances for the line. Baby steps I guess.

I predicted this at the start of the season. This is a mediocre bubble team. They will win some and lose some. Some nights they will look great, others they will suck. Everyone will scream murder at the losses. Everyone will scream trade. Everyone will call for Carbo's head.

People, this team is right about where they should be. They are not a great team laden with untapped talent. They are at best, average. Just line the Leafs, just like the bruins, just like a number of teams. Get use to it.

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Rask didn't look so good on Thursday, the habs even chased DiPietro (one of the top 5 in league imo) from the net a few weeks ago. Ward is a Conn Smyth winning goalie, give him some credit.

Not to mention, he likely was trying to redeem himself from getting chased the last time he played us on Oct 26th.

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Who won 2 nite? I couldn't attend the game due to my nude volleyball game down at zee beach. I assume the havs won 2 nite since they have won 24 cups and they are still the best team in the world. :puke:

..Joe..

Stop the whining ladies.......the slabs aint that good.

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I am continually confused that a team that is being built from the goalie out to be a shut down defensive team

can't shut down anybody with a lead, does not work hard and lacks a hard forecheck.

I really don't know if Carbo can teach these guys how to play shutdown hockey. I hope I am wrong.

People may disagree, but when Gainey took over from Julien the Habs played solid defensive hockey with

an aggressive forecheck and worked their ass off. They caused all types of problems with the same players

for the league for 40+ games. Huet had 5-6 shutouts and I expected more of the same with Carbo and co.

The Canes said it was their hardest series in the playoffs and I thought the franchise had turned the corner.

nope.

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I really thought we played a pretty good game until the 4th or 5th goal, we gave up after those. At the beginning, sure we were losing, but there was energy in our game, which we didn't see in our usual performances when we get dominated (4-1 against Detroit, 3-1 against Carolina, 4-3 against Nashville, ...).

If the Habs want this defensive style to work out, we're going to have to become offensive oppotunists. If we're going to get few scoring chances, while allowing lots of them, we're going to have to score on the majority of our chances. Odd-man rushes are going to have to wind up in the back of their nets. Guys like Higgins, Koivu and Ryder have to start finishing more of their chances (Higgins has been scoring, but only his garbage goals, he doesn't often finish his great chances).

We're also going to need better goaltending. You can't blame the loss on Price but he has to be better. Huet had to be better. Even Halak looked very misplaced in the period he played. With the style of hockey we play, top notch goaltending is a must. If we're not going to get it then we might as well forget the whole defensive gameplan and try scoring some goals.

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I am continually confused that a team that is being built from the goalie out to be a shut down defensive team

can't shut down anybody with a lead, does not work hard and lacks a hard forecheck.

I really don't know if Carbo can teach these guys how to play shutdown hockey. I hope I am wrong.

People may disagree, but when Gainey took over from Julien the Habs played solid defensive hockey with

an aggressive forecheck and worked their ass off. They caused all types of problems with the same players

for the league for 40+ games. Huet had 5-6 shutouts and I expected more of the same with Carbo and co.

The Canes said it was their hardest series in the playoffs and I thought the franchise had turned the corner.

nope.

I felt the same way, but for the year and a half since Carbo's taken over, I've become convinced that the only guy who could get them to do it from behind the bench in Gainey. I'm not sure the players like carbo. Some of the things he's said have peeved me off and I don't have to deal with him on a daily basis. He doesn't seem to have much tact. He may know hockey, but unless he can get those around him to want to play well for him, it means nothing.

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I felt the same way, but for the year and a half since Carbo's taken over, I've become convinced that the only guy who could get them to do it from behind the bench in Gainey. I'm not sure the players like carbo. Some of the things he's said have peeved me off and I don't have to deal with him on a daily basis. He doesn't seem to have much tact. He may know hockey, but unless he can get those around him to want to play well for him, it means nothing.

There's no question that Gainey outclassed every coach the organization has had since, perhaps, Pat Burns. The fact that guys like Rivet left down still talking about the huge respect they have for him, after having played under him nightly for half a season, speaks volumes. That being said, Carbo's struggles are bewildering. He was always such a smart player, a masterful tacticial on the ice; and he's been brought along as Gainey's understudy for his entire career. Why, then, can't he instil the kind of suffocating defensive system he used to execute in his sleep? (Even more baffling is that, earlier this season, when the Habs were playing pretty damned good team defence, they were winning lots of games, even dominating at times. Wasn't that enough to demonstrate to the players that this is the way to win? What the hell is going on??)

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You guys might be interested in this quote from Erik Cole from this article in the local Raleigh newspaper:

"Toward the end of the game, I was booing from the penalty box for the fans, trying to start something for them," Cole said. "We addressed that, that you can get the crowd turned on them a little bit. It's different than other arenas. Here you've got to put one in the net. Other places, you can just slow the game down. Here it takes a little more, that's for sure."
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There's no question that Gainey outclassed every coach the organization has had since, perhaps, Pat Burns. The fact that guys like Rivet left down still talking about the huge respect they have for him, after having played under him nightly for half a season, speaks volumes. That being said, Carbo's struggles are bewildering. He was always such a smart player, a masterful tacticial on the ice; and he's been brought along as Gainey's understudy for his entire career. Why, then, can't he instil the kind of suffocating defensive system he used to execute in his sleep? (Even more baffling is that, earlier this season, when the Habs were playing pretty damned good team defence, they were winning lots of games, even dominating at times. Wasn't that enough to demonstrate to the players that this is the way to win? What the hell is going on??)

I have beaten this horse to death. I can't understand why a team with some of the greatest/hardworking defensive players in Canadiens history cannot teach/get these guys to but into this system.

I defend the long range plan, but the plan will yield absolutely nothing if they cannot instill the discipline it takes to shut down games. How many games do you give Carbo to show progress?

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I have beaten this horse to death. I can't understand why a team with some of the greatest/hardworking defensive players in Canadiens history cannot teach/get these guys to but into this system.

I defend the long range plan, but the plan will yield absolutely nothing if they cannot instill the discipline it takes to shut down games. How many games do you give Carbo to show progress?

he's had a year and a about 20 games. that's long enough in my opinion.

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