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Arguments about Koivu


SAKS-AVENUE

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Time is running out.....something drastic has to happen to either get Sucko to play better....or for him to not play as much. I'd like to see Sucko out, Chips in for a game or two at this stage.

Ugh... do you watch the games? Saku has been playing well recently, hell, in Florida he was probably our most dangerous forward on the ice for most of the game. Of course you want Saku out, you hold a ridiculous grudge against him. Fortunately you're not running any part of this team, because sure as hell all the players would hate you.

Saku is up and down like a toilet seat!

He will never be any better than a second line centre and I really think Bob should look at doing something with him. Its to fish or cut bait and we've stuck with this guy long enough. Lets get someone that knows what it is to be a captain! :clap:

What do you know about 'knowing what it is to be a captain?' How can someone on the outside even judge his leadership abilities, we're not in the locker room, at the practices, on the bench with him. He's still the captain of this team, they don't just hand that title to people for almost a decade if the person isn't right for the job.

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Ugh... do you watch the games? Saku has been playing well recently, hell, in Florida he was probably our most dangerous forward on the ice for most of the game. Of course you want Saku out, you hold a ridiculous grudge against him. Fortunately you're not running any part of this team, because sure as hell all the players would hate you.

What do you know about 'knowing what it is to be a captain?' How can someone on the outside even judge his leadership abilities, we're not in the locker room, at the practices, on the bench with him. He's still the captain of this team, they don't just hand that title to people for almost a decade if the person isn't right for the job.

..and I guess YOU do know what it is to be a captain eh? Give me a break! U can't tell me that Sak is at the same level of captain as, ummmmm lets say a Scott Stevens when he played. Or lets even look at the other great captains in the past - even Guy Carb. A captain is someone that takes the team by the throat, off and ON the ice. Do U honestly see Saku doing that? Like I said - a second line centre.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are dead wrong but thats fine. :clap:

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..and I guess YOU do know what it is to be a captain eh? Give me a break! U can't tell me that Sak is at the same level of captain as, ummmmm lets say a Scott Stevens when he played. Or lets even look at the other great captains in the past - even Guy Carb. A captain is someone that takes the team by the throat, off and ON the ice. Do U honestly see Saku doing that? Like I said - a second line centre.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are dead wrong but thats fine. :clap:

Ya that's why he's been captain for so long. I think I'll trust Gainey on this one a little more then your self entitled opinion........

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Ya that's why he's been captain for so long. I think I'll trust Gainey on this one a little more then your self entitled opinion........

Like this team has a had choice the last few yrs as to who to make Captain - lets see - we could have had Gino Odjick. Or theres always was Ribeiro. Or hey maybe even Rivet - theres a keeper!

Can U honestly stand back and really vision Saku being called up to the podium as Captain on the Montreal Canadiens to accept the Cup? I can't.

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Ya that's why he's been captain for so long. I think I'll trust Gainey on this one a little more then your self entitled opinion........

One has to remember that Saku was not named captain by the current regime. He was already a long standing captain. I don't think it would have done Gainey well to make renaming his captain his priority in rebuilding this historic francise, however I believe he will install his choice when the time is right and that person has shown himself. Right now I couldn,t say who that guy would be, Maybe Kovalev but that is based only on this season. He is, in my opinion, showing true leadership qualities at least with his line. Can't say about in the dressingroom. Saku isn't showing that leadership ability on the bench right now. In the past I have seen shots of him talking out previous plays on the bench as Kovy does this year. He isn't doing this and things aren't working, Kovy wasn't last year and he stank. See the correlation?

We can all have our own opinions on this matter and obviously do. Let's keep it civil.

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..and I guess YOU do know what it is to be a captain eh? Give me a break! U can't tell me that Sak is at the same level of captain as, ummmmm lets say a Scott Stevens when he played. Or lets even look at the other great captains in the past - even Guy Carb. A captain is someone that takes the team by the throat, off and ON the ice. Do U honestly see Saku doing that? Like I said - a second line centre.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are dead wrong but thats fine. :clap:

A second line centre well yes if you believe there are only 5-10 first line centres in the league but I believe there are 30.

This year he may indeed be a 2nd line centre but if he is, he is among the best in the league.

As for a 2nd line centre not being a good Captain what about Patrick Marleau is he a good captain,

Bobby Holik in Atlanta?

Tim Taylor in Tampa

Clark in Washington.

Like this team has a had choice the last few yrs as to who to make Captain - lets see - we could have had Gino Odjick. Or theres always was Ribeiro. Or hey maybe even Rivet - theres a keeper!

Can U honestly stand back and really vision Saku being called up to the podium as Captain on the Montreal Canadiens to accept the Cup? I can't.

Yeah I think he could be the first euro captain to win the cup.

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In the past I have seen shots of him talking out previous plays on the bench as Kovy does this year.

1) Judgeing him by selective TV clips is pretty weak.

2) What the hell is a guy supposed to say when Higgins/Ryder/Latendresse blow an open net??

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1) Judgeing him by selective TV clips is pretty weak.

2) What the hell is a guy supposed to say when Higgins/Ryder/Latendresse blow an open net??

Dont forget to add S.Kot. to that list. He has missed his share of Saku's feeds. Maybe he could tell them to shot at the net instead of the goalie? Encouragement maybe? Something is better than nothing. Maybe I am judging by a few clips but we have to judge by what we see. I see a frusterated centre, who's feeds, for some reason aren't being finished. Alot like Ribs in the past. He would probably explode in a new enviroment the same way Ribs did. Something is wrong here, as all our wingers can't suck as bad as they seem to on his line. Or do they? If so maybe we have deep rooted problems. I don't think that is the case.

We have all agreed for years that we need a big centre for the second line. In the past it Saku was the little centre on the top line. That spot is filled by Pleks and should be for many years to come. We still have two little guys centering our top lines. That is still a problem in my eyes. The difference over previous seasons is Saku is now that 2nd centre. Would you keep Saku or Pleks? Are you fine with two small centers for our top lines? I love Saku and cheer for him each game, his photo is still over my desk and will remain there even if he is traded. However I put the team over any one player and for the team to be a contender I think we need that big presence up front.

There is the other side of the coin that tells me over and over again that if Higgins/Koivu/Ryder ever get it back the second line will be scary, however logic and previous seasons of disappointment have me still feeling that size up the middle will continue to be an issue. I hope they prove me wrong soon. Tonight would be a good start against a very aggressive Flyer team.

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When Saku was playing like shite for 10 or so games after christmas, we could not blame it on anyone else but he, himself. But in the last few games, his play has picked up (as those of us who watch the games know..). During this time I think we've again seen what has held Saku back somewhat during his career....Higgins et al. missing great setups and not reciprocating his play.

Given, Higgins seems to be picking it up a bit too, but even when he looked like the best player on the ice, he couldnt put the puck in a wide open cage. I still think we need a goal scorer on that line.....and it doesnt need to be a 50-goal scorer. Someone with the potential to score 30 (like Ryder used to be), would get that line going right now IMO.

Hossa would be nice, but I guy like Prospal (even though he's LW) might be a perfect fit. I'll be interested to see what Bob does for this line.....it has to be something.

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Dont forget to add S.Kot. to that list. He has missed his share of Saku's feeds. Maybe he could tell them to shot at the net instead of the goalie? Encouragement maybe? Something is better than nothing. Maybe I am judging by a few clips but we have to judge by what we see. I see a frusterated centre, who's feeds, for some reason aren't being finished. Alot like Ribs in the past. He would probably explode in a new enviroment the same way Ribs did. Something is wrong here, as all our wingers can't suck as bad as they seem to on his line. Or do they? If so maybe we have deep rooted problems. I don't think that is the case.

I think the problem with the linemates is that they are just young. Skilled yes, but young players can suffer from confidence problems, and also their timing gets better with experience.

Ribs is a bit different style centre than Koivu, he generates a lot of his own line's offence (like Sundin) as opposed to guys like Spezza, Savard, Koivu and big Joe who are setup centres. Asides from maturing from his coketastic buena nights, it certainly helps Ribs' numbers to have a good vet winger in Brendan Morrow to play with.

Edited by Dirty Harry
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..and I guess YOU do know what it is to be a captain eh? Give me a break! U can't tell me that Sak is at the same level of captain as, ummmmm lets say a Scott Stevens when he played. Or lets even look at the other great captains in the past - even Guy Carb. A captain is someone that takes the team by the throat, off and ON the ice. Do U honestly see Saku doing that? Like I said - a second line centre.

No need to be foolish. I never said I knew what it was to be a captain, I said that you didn't. Niether of us are in any position to make a judgment of his leadership abilities, but that obviously doesn't stop you. And I never said that he was the greatest captain of all time, so comparing him to Scott Stevens who led his team to multiple Cups is a bit steep. You know that there are 30 captains in the NHL right now, and someone like you would only be satisfied with maybe 5 of them. Not everyone can be Scott Stevens. And where were you when Koivu took the team by the throat for all of last season? And every playoff series he has ever played? You just like to rush to judgment, and your memory is obviously pretty short.

Given, Higgins seems to be picking it up a bit too, but even when he looked like the best player on the ice, he couldnt put the puck in a wide open cage. I still think we need a goal scorer on that line.....and it doesnt need to be a 50-goal scorer. Someone with the potential to score 30 (like Ryder used to be), would get that line going right now IMO.

The thing is, Higgins might still get 30, he isn't that far off and he just needs to go on a hot streak. Ryder was really streaky last year, and slumped for extended periods, but still managed to get 30 with a hat trick in the final game. Higgins definitely has the potential to score 30, and if we're talking about guys with the potential to pot 30, I'd much rather have Higgins there than Ryder.

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No need to be foolish. I never said I knew what it was to be a captain, I said that you didn't. Niether of us are in any position to make a judgment of his leadership abilities, but that obviously doesn't stop you. And I never said that he was the greatest captain of all time, so comparing him to Scott Stevens who led his team to multiple Cups is a bit steep. You know that there are 30 captains in the NHL right now, and someone like you would only be satisfied with maybe 5 of them. Not everyone can be Scott Stevens. And where were you when Koivu took the team by the throat for all of last season? And every playoff series he has ever played? You just like to rush to judgment, and your memory is obviously pretty short.

Ahhhh ok. Perhaps your memory isn't as good as it should be. I can't recall him grabbing the team by the throat last yr and if he did it was piss-poor cause look where they ended up. Its true not everyone can be a Stevens but I am not rushing to any judgement at all - its the facts. We've had him as cap since 1999 - buddy he doesn't have what it takes. End of story.

Just like U are not in a position to make judgement of "leadership abilities", don't make a judgement as to what I consider a good Captain. :angry:

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Ahhhh ok. Perhaps your memory isn't as good as it should be. I can't recall him grabbing the team by the throat last yr and if he did it was piss-poor cause look where they ended up. Its true not everyone can be a Stevens but I am not rushing to any judgement at all - its the facts. We've had him as cap since 1999 - buddy he doesn't have what it takes. End of story.

Just like U are not in a position to make judgement of "leadership abilities", don't make a judgement as to what I consider a good Captain. :angry:

He was our best player last year, and pretty much carried us. We didn't make it to the playoffs, but there were 20 other players on the team who deserve more blame for that. And can you count how many captains have brought their team a Cup since 1999? Yeah, it's about 5 give or take a few. And all of them have done it with teams that have finished 3rd in their conference in points or better. So my comment stands about your standards for a captain, which are unreasonable. We've got a good one, not the best, but better than most.

Edited by Neech
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He was our best player last year, and pretty much carried us. We didn't make it to the playoffs, but there were 20 other players on the team who deserve more blame for that. And can you count how many captains have brought their team a Cup since 1999? Yeah, it's about 5 give or take a few. And all of them have done it with teams that have finished 3rd in their conference in points or better. So my comment stands about your standards for a captain, which are unreasonable. We've got a good one, not the best, but better than most.

Our best player last yr? Points yes. But in the NHL, there is something called a plus/minus - no doubt U know nothing about that. In 06/07 he was a minus 21. MINUS. That isn't a positive. In fact, thats 3rd WORST on the team.

Perhaps your standards when it comes to being a captain is unreasonable, since it appears that only standard U go on is points. :wacko:

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Our best player last yr? Points yes. But in the NHL, there is something called a plus/minus - no doubt U know nothing about that. In 06/07 he was a minus 21. MINUS. That isn't a positive. In fact, thats 3rd WORST on the team.

Perhaps your standards when it comes to being a captain is unreasonable, since it appears that only standard U go on is points. :wacko:

Yeah his +/- was bad last year but lets get real when you are on a bad defensive team you can not have a god +/- number.

Is Brad Richards a good player?

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This is the same horseshit that was going around last year with Kovy. Now everyone can't say enough about him. Koivu has been great for so many years for this team.

He has been slow this year. Who knows maybe his wife is having an affair, maybe he's hurt or aching all of the time. I don't know. It definitely doesn't help that Ryder and Higgins disappeared too this year. This is the first year since Koivu was made Captain, that if he plays poorly, the team can still win.

He was the backbone of the team for 10 years. You may argue that it wasn't much of a team, so the backbone need not be that strong to hold it up, but that isn't his fault. I hope that Gainey brings in a Canadian winger and sets up a co-captaincy like Buffalo last year, so some of the pressure is deflected from Saks.

That said, he appears to be getting shifty again and using his quickness to his benefit, so hopefully there will be a payoff on the scoresheet. The reason I wonder if he isn't hurt is that he doesn't seem to take the hit to make the play like he used to.

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This is the same horseshit that was going around last year with Kovy. Now everyone can't say enough about him. Koivu has been great for so many years for this team.

He has been slow this year. Who knows maybe his wife is having an affair, maybe he's hurt or aching all of the time. I don't know. It definitely doesn't help that Ryder and Higgins disappeared too this year. This is the first year since Koivu was made Captain, that if he plays poorly, the team can still win.

He was the backbone of the team for 10 years. You may argue that it wasn't much of a team, so the backbone need not be that strong to hold it up, but that isn't his fault. I hope that Gainey brings in a Canadian winger and sets up a co-captaincy like Buffalo last year, so some of the pressure is deflected from Saks.

That said, he appears to be getting shifty again and using his quickness to his benefit, so hopefully there will be a payoff on the scoresheet. The reason I wonder if he isn't hurt is that he doesn't seem to take the hit to make the play like he used to.

The most important part of this post.

I have been saying it for so long thank you.

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This is the same horseshit that was going around last year with Kovy. Now everyone can't say enough about him. Koivu has been great for so many years for this team.

He has been slow this year. Who knows maybe his wife is having an affair, maybe he's hurt or aching all of the time. I don't know. It definitely doesn't help that Ryder and Higgins disappeared too this year. This is the first year since Koivu was made Captain, that if he plays poorly, the team can still win.

He was the backbone of the team for 10 years. You may argue that it wasn't much of a team, so the backbone need not be that strong to hold it up, but that isn't his fault. I hope that Gainey brings in a Canadian winger and sets up a co-captaincy like Buffalo last year, so some of the pressure is deflected from Saks.

That said, he appears to be getting shifty again and using his quickness to his benefit, so hopefully there will be a payoff on the scoresheet. The reason I wonder if he isn't hurt is that he doesn't seem to take the hit to make the play like he used to.

Saks is going through a minor scoring funk. He has not lost the team. Everyone respects him from Gainey to the waterboy/towel guy. There is no pressure to be deflected. The only pressure that exists is on these forums. When he gets out of the funk everyone in these forums will want his babies and demand Gainey resign him. Yup same old horse shit,

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nuetral observer here, what is the point of this thread? Sounds like ultimate fan boyism.

habs are in first place, in the division and the conference. Nothing can be better right now. give it a rest.

You know.....you are going to have to ask Kozed that question. It all started in a game thread, and him using some reversal forum strategy to get Saks going. An arguement started and Kozed decided it wasn't a game thread issue anymore......it should, I guess, have it's own thread. I felt like you P the G. Why? this is stupid and it still is stupid, as I bump it myself. :wacko:

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nuetral observer here, what is the point of this thread? Sounds like ultimate fan boyism.

habs are in first place, in the division and the conference. Nothing can be better right now. give it a rest.

The topic started months ago and has hit peaks and valleys.

When they struggle Koivu gets even more heat, but he has played better lately and the hate has subsided somewhat.

Like it or not it is a hot topic or it would not have 9 pages and appear in essentially every game discussion.

Edited by Wamsley01
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With things looking like there is no stopping the Kovy line, if Saku, Higgy and even Ryder start to chip in alot more, like in Philly on Sunday, the Habs will be much better for it.

It's hard to believe that with Saku struggling a little offensively, that the Habs are contending for No. 1 in the East. But it goes to show how much the young talent on the club is improving daily. I should say the young talent and Kovy up front, and the Hammer on the back-end. If the Habs had an unsung hero, there is no doubt that Hamrlik would be at the top of that list. He might not get the points of a Souray, but he is the glue of the back-end. What a physical force, and with Komi stepping up his play, look out.

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The topic started months ago and has hit peaks and valleys.

When they struggle Koivu gets even more heat, but he has played better lately and the hate has subsided somewhat.

Like it or not it is a hot topic or it would not have 9 pages and appear in essentially every game discussion.

I'm sure there are plenty of burn Kovalev on the cross threads from last year that surpassed 9 pages.Do they matter now? Where's the faith? At least Koivu isn't slamming everything in the media in Finland. How quickly everyone forgets.............Patience and respect ....It's not a perfect world. He'll come around.

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