JLP Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 The pool scores goals and assists only, it is tight and I have the last trade, will drop Havlat. Who would you take -- Sakic or Forsberg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Sakic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Forsberg. He will have a hand in almost any point that Sakic puts up from here on out, now that Smyth is probably done for the year, and he'll have more points on the PP. It would be even easier to call if Svatos wasn't also hurt, because he's a goal scoring machine when somebody gets him the puck. In my estimation, Forsberg will single-handedly be responsible for getting one of our UFAs to be (Hlinka, Brunette, or Wolski (RFA)) more money in free agency because of increased production late in the year. On this note: Let me be the first to predict that the Avalanche will have serious salary cap issues, and will struggle to bring back Forsberg (UFA) AND Foote (UFA) AND Sakic (UFA) AND Liles (UFA) AND a starting goaltender (Theo UFA). (See: 2005 off-season.) Based on recent history, the Avalanche will mis-manage it horribly and end up back in the middle of the pack in the western conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 What recent history? 2005? We have a new GM. And Liles can bugger off. Go with Sakic, we're not getting the same Forsberg back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 What recent history? 2005? We have a new GM. And Liles can bugger off. Go with Sakic, we're not getting the same Forsberg back. I didn't say we were getting the same Forsberg back, in fact I've acknowleged in other posts that he won't be near the super star he was when he left. However, he was on a point per game click with Philly (40 in 40), and barely under with Nashville (15 pts, 17 GP). The question isn't performance, it's whether or not he plays at all. As far as who is likely to produce more in the last 16 games of this regular season, it's Forsberg. Say he plays in 16 games for the Avalanche, he's likely to get between 14-16 points, mostly assists. On a line with Sakic and Hejduk/Brunette, he'll do the playmaking, and the other will do the scoring. Sakic has put up a similar points per game, but has been slow to return from injury. Forsberg at 50% is a better playmaker than Smyth, Wolski, or any of our other left wingers. (I know Forsberg is a natural centre, but he probably won't push Stastny or Sakic to the wing on a regular line.) Now that I think about it, Brunette stands to benefit the most because Wolski/Hlinka won't likely play on a line with Forsberg very often. Forsberg has continued to consistently produce, even in the face of missing significant time since the lockout. Mismanagement in recent history (and yes, 2005 is recent history. That's 2.5 years back out of 12.5 years of Avalanche hockey): 2005: Letting both Foote and Forsberg go. Should've devoted all 6 mil to one guy, probably Forsberg. 2006: Trading Tanguay for Leopold. (Injuries aren't Leopold's fault, but we didn't need another smallish, puck-moving defenseman. We already had Liles and Cumiskey, and that's enough for one team as is.) 2007: Acquiring Foote and Forsberg (good players, but no way to keep them under the cap without losing somebody else, and giving up a 1st rd. pick was questionable for Foote. I repeat: Good players, fit our needs. I just think it may have been a short-sighted attempt to get attendance back up. This off-season will be rough.) Jury is still out on Liles IMO. He hasn't developed as expected. He should be head and shoulders above Clark and Finger. He's not. Trading him at the deadline would've been the best option. I can't speculate as to why that didn't happen, all I know is it didn't happen. The team hasn't shown that it can shrewdly deal with the salary cap limitations. I hope I'm wrong. It would be really impressive to see some rhyme to the reason, and I'll be the first to step up and point out their success, but I just don't think we've made the best decisions ever. Still struggling to adjust to post-lockout economics. Look for yourself, tell me how we can keep Forsberg and Foote. Remember, Sakic hasn't taken hometown discounts in the past, and we have no evidence to make us believe that Footer or Foppa would either. Avalanche Salary Overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycing Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Sakic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 thanks guys, one more day to make sure that Havlat is not coming back, they I go with the majority and pick up Sakic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I didn't say we were getting the same Forsberg back, in fact I've acknowleged in other posts that he won't be near the super star he was when he left. However, he was on a point per game click with Philly (40 in 40), and barely under with Nashville (15 pts, 17 GP). The question isn't performance, it's whether or not he plays at all. As far as who is likely to produce more in the last 16 games of this regular season, it's Forsberg. Say he plays in 16 games for the Avalanche, he's likely to get between 14-16 points, mostly assists. On a line with Sakic and Hejduk/Brunette, he'll do the playmaking, and the other will do the scoring. Sakic has put up a similar points per game, but has been slow to return from injury. Forsberg at 50% is a better playmaker than Smyth, Wolski, or any of our other left wingers. (I know Forsberg is a natural centre, but he probably won't push Stastny or Sakic to the wing on a regular line.) Now that I think about it, Brunette stands to benefit the most because Wolski/Hlinka won't likely play on a line with Forsberg very oftenForsberg has continued to consistently produce, even in the face of missing significant time since the lockout. Being a playmaker off position hampers your ability to produce. It's a foregone conclusion that Forsberg will play LW, he doesn't have the footspeed to play C anymore. Sakic playing at C and being a whole lot better then Forsberg at this point in his career points to him producing more. I think Wolski has the most riding on this though, if he can't get up to play with our latest acquisitions then I say we cut him and run. He's starting to be a healty scratch more often and he shows absolutely zero desire to be out there on the ice when he does play. 2005: Letting both Foote and Forsberg go. Should've devoted all 6 mil to one guy, probably Forsberg. Right, because we've had so much trouble scoring post-lockout. I realize Forsberg is very creative and tries to use his big body effectively but our defense hasn't been the same since Foote left. Theres no arguing that, if you put Forsberg on the Avs team that year intead of Turgeon, we still lose to Anaheim. Put Foote on instead of Brisebois, and we'd win that series. Foote brought a presence to our D like no other and after he left, we had no effective marksman so other teams stars were allowed to roam free. 2006: Trading Tanguay for Leopold. (Injuries aren't Leopold's fault, but we didn't need another smallish, puck-moving defenseman. We already had Liles and Cumiskey, and that's enough for one team as is.) Come on now, you know what this deal was. We weren't interested in Leopold, we needed the cap room to sign Blake. You can't fault Giggy for not signing Blake, he was leading the entire organization along on a string with false hope and empty promises. As soon as July 1st hit, he was in LA faster then you could say "lieing scumbag". We're not the only team who has dealt a star for nothing just to save room. Besides, Burki has been looking better and better ever since we drafted him with the pick in that deal. 2007: Acquiring Foote and Forsberg (good players, but no way to keep them under the cap without losing somebody else, and giving up a 1st rd. pick was questionable for Foote. I repeat: Good players, fit our needs. I just think it may have been a short-sighted attempt to get attendance back up. This off-season will be rough.) Our prospect pool is one of the deepest in the league right now, one 1st isn't a bad thing for the one guy our corps so obviously needs and it doesn't look like he wants to quit anytime soon. I see another Chelios in Foote. Getting two guys of Foote and Forsberg's calibre while only losing a 1st round pick and nothing off your roster is hardly "mis-management" Jury is still out on Liles IMO. He hasn't developed as expected. He should be head and shoulders above Clark and Finger. He's not. Trading him at the deadline would've been the best option. I can't speculate as to why that didn't happen, all I know is it didn't happen. The team hasn't shown that it can shrewdly deal with the salary cap limitations. I hope I'm wrong. It would be really impressive to see some rhyme to the reason, and I'll be the first to step up and point out their success, but I just don't think we've made the best decisions ever. Still struggling to adjust to post-lockout economics. Look for yourself, tell me how we can keep Forsberg and Foote. Remember, Sakic hasn't taken hometown discounts in the past, and we have no evidence to make us believe that Footer or Foppa would either. Avalanche Salary Overview Liles is gone, plain and simple. We're not keeping him and we shouldn't. He wasn't dealt because Pittsburgh was the one team interested and traded everything we wouldve gotten (Armstrong or Christenen) for Hossa. Liles can go and Bruno can go (his skating, which wasn't great to begin with, has gotten atrocious this year). Theo takes a cut, he's got no choice, down to around 2.5-3 mil. Sakic has no bargaining chips for a raise unlike last year with his 100 points, he'll go back down to his 5 mil. And if Wolski keeps playing the way he is, I'm for taking the picks on the RFA market and running. I'd say cut Forsberg loose too but he was only going to sign with a team who would sign him for next year too. Plus you have to figure the cap will go up another 2-3 mil like every other year. That leaves us with atleast 13 mil to spend, a lot of which we can replace from within. Cumiskey and Hensick should both have regular spots on this club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Sakic or Forsberg? Who cares, just trade Koivu already. *snorts* (Okay, if you haven't seen the Pleky thread in the Habs Forum, you won't get that.) LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Jets: Although I still disagree entirely, you make some good points on Forsberg's positioning, the Tanguay trade, Brunette's skating, and Fotte's absence post-lockout. However, if they go the way you suggest, then we won't make the playoffs again before 2012, barring some excellent acquisitions. Letting Liles, Brunette and Forsberg go and relying on Wolski and Hensick as regular second-line guys would be tough to get through. You are WAY overvaluing our young guys. Stewart might be ready now, but Stoa suffered a serious knee injury with the Gophers this year, Shattenkirk is ANOTHER slightly undersized puck-moving defenseman, Boychuk has shown that he's habitually unprepared to play at the NHL level, Hensick will struggle becuase of his size, and Wolski is getting close to bust stuatus. I'm willing to agree to disagree on those points, because we obviously don't agree at all. You make some very solid points, and $13 mil to play with in the off-season would allow for excellent acquisitions. I hope that FG would have big plans for another Foote/Salei/Hannan type defenseman who's 6'2" or larger (not Sauer). Salei looks to be a great pick-up. Two or three more shrewd moves like that would be very exciting. It boils down to the idea that we didn't need to miss the playoffs last year to get where we are now, the team's financial issues this off-season will be terrible, and the guy who produces more in the last 16 games of the season will be Forsberg. Jets, what is our biggest need this off-season? If we can retain Foote and Finger, then we would have Clark, Salei, Hannan, Leopold, Foote, Finger, and Cumiskey. The only hole I see there is none of them are over 6'2". Sauer is large, but doesn't play like it consistenlty enough. So, IMO, a big defenseman would be nice. No more undersized puck-movers. We've got Leopold and Cumiskey, and Shattenkirk is on the way. At forward, a replacement for Brunette would be nice. Next season we for sure have Smyth, Stastny, Sakic (assuming he re-signs a 1 yr. deal), Hejduk, Wolski (RFA), and Svatos (RFA). I think a pure playmaker would be good, somebody with speed and passing skills to get on a line with Hejduk and Sakic and get the puck to those guys. First line of ???? - Sakic - Hejduk would work well. On the second line, Smyth - Stastny - Svatos? With Smyth and Statny, a strong shooter would be good, because Smyth and Stats are always around the net. I find Wolski to be an optional piece. Hlinka is gone. So, the wish list from my perspective is 1.) Starting goaltender 2.) Playmaker 3.) Big Defenseman 4.) Sniper. Agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I bet leopold has been a disapointment but that guy was lights out in calgary, and single handedly made Regehr into an allstar. What happened to calgarys defense once Leopold left?? It completely blew up.. Lydman for a 3rd? Commodore for a 4th? brutal trades by sutter.. we wouldnt need crap filler like zyuzin or eriksson if we had better depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 At forward, a replacement for Brunette would be nice. Next season we for sure have Smyth, Stastny, Sakic (assuming he re-signs a 1 yr. deal), Hejduk, Wolski (RFA), and Svatos (RFA). I think a pure playmaker would be good, somebody with speed and passing skills to get on a line with Hejduk and Sakic and get the puck to those guys. First line of ???? - Sakic - Hejduk would work well. On the second line, Smyth - Stastny - Svatos? With Smyth and Statny, a strong shooter would be good, because Smyth and Stats are always around the net. I find Wolski to be an optional piece. Hlinka is gone. So, the wish list from my perspective is 1.) Starting goaltender 2.) Playmaker 3.) Big Defenseman 4.) Sniper. Agree? I erased the rest because, like you said, agree to disagree. I agree on Wolski, like I said, we should thank Kevin Lowe for raising the RFA market and take the picks and run. Hlinka, I think he's gone too. What I want to see addressed this off-season is a big shot on the blueline for our PP. I'm willing to sign Theo to a 1 year deal and hold off on a starting goaltender for one more season (pending his performance in the playoffs should we make it there.) Like I've said before, I'm pro-Budaj so I'm still leaning towards giving him a shot as the stand alone #1 before we decide on a change in net. With your order, I'd probably just switch 3 and 2, as long as the big d-man has a boomer of a shot. I don't want a Souray or McCabe kind of guy, he should be able to play physical as well. Throw in a face-off specialist as well for the third line, Sakic has been by himself for what feels like forever. I think the last guy we had that could win faceoffs consistently was Nikolishin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I bet leopold has been a disapointment but that guy was lights out in calgary, and single handedly made Regehr into an allstar. What happened to calgarys defense once Leopold left?? It completely blew up.. Lydman for a 3rd? Commodore for a 4th? brutal trades by sutter.. we wouldnt need crap filler like zyuzin or eriksson if we had better depth. Him being lights out would be awesome, he's had such terrible luck with his health. If he could develop some of the Regher chemistry with Foote or Finger or Salei or Hannan, that would be a huge step forward. Maybe with more healthy time, it will develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I agree on Wolski, like I said, we should thank Kevin Lowe for raising the RFA market and take the picks and run. Hlinka, I think he's gone too. So you think Lowe is going to rob you of Wolski eh? Wouldn't surprise me if we beat them to Jeff Carter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 So you think Lowe is going to rob you of Wolski eh? Wouldn't surprise me if we beat them to Jeff Carter. No but he's definitely started the "Lets overpay for an RFA" I'll take the 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Wolski, he'll get a Penner type offer if he hits the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Oh, that would be sweeter than seeing Joe Louis Arena sink into Lake St. Clair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Oh, that would be sweeter than seeing Joe Louis Arena sink into Lake St. Clair. What would be sweeter than seeing Joe Louis Arena explode to seeing Zetterberg causing destruction in the Avs zone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 What would be sweeter than seeing Joe Louis Arena explode to seeing Zetterberg causing destruction in the Avs zone? This sentence makes no grammatical sense. I think you're trying to diss us but I can't be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 This sentence makes no grammatical sense. I think you're trying to diss us but I can't be sure. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. Zetterberg terrorizing the Avs. The Avs being destroyed. Detroit fans celebrating and going crazy. You're right. I'm not trying to diss you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. Zetterberg terrorizing the Avs. The Avs being destroyed. Detroit fans celebrating and going crazy. You're right. I'm not trying to diss you. *meanwhile Luongo is watching the 1st round matchup on the couch* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 *meanwhile Luongo is watching the 1st round matchup on the couch* I actually wouldn't mind if that happened. I already see it happening sadly. You obviously haven't seen me rant lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I actually wouldn't mind if that happened. I already see it happening sadly. You obviously haven't seen me rant lately. No, I have, I'm just making my own prediction. I don't see Vancouver in the playoffs either at this point. They've got a month to turn it around though but they're the only team battling for the 8th spot that is on a cold spell right now. A lot of Canucks fans on a board I go to want AV fired. Is that the feeling throughout the fanbase or is that just an isolated idea amongst the board I go to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 No, I have, I'm just making my own prediction. I don't see Vancouver in the playoffs either at this point. They've got a month to turn it around though but they're the only team battling for the 8th spot that is on a cold spell right now. A lot of Canucks fans on a board I go to want AV fired. Is that the feeling throughout the fanbase or is that just an isolated idea amongst the board I go to? HF? Some people are ######ed. Alain Vigneault is not the problem per se. It could be said that he juggles his lines A LOT but if the players could actually produce then I don't think he'd have to juggle the lines as much to get the production needed. Burrows and Kesler play together regularly and they've been lights out for us. No one comes close to those 2 lately. That's how great they've been. If this team actually had secondary scoring then I'm pretty confident he'd just roll his lines. I don't agree with everything he does though, as for example, he has failed at using Pettinger in a top 6 role so far etc... I HIGHLY doubt AV will be fired though. There's more to this coldspell that meets the eye. This team's TRUE leader outside of Luongo is Mitchell and it's blatantly obvious he's playing injured. He was huge for us last year and you just don't see that energy from him this season and you know he's probably hurting a lot right now. This team lacks the energy that Mitchell can bring and this is where I overlooked the Cooke factor. This is a time where I wish Jovo was still on this team. Forgot to add the players like Ohlund and Salo and especially Nazzy need to step up and lead this team. Linden I always see the effort from so no problems with him. If the Canucks are to fight their way back, they need to play with that relentless energy where they fight for the full 60 minutes. That's what makes this team dangerous. My bet is if you don't see it tomorrow night vs the Avs, this season is as good as done for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I think tomorrow's game will be pretty boring, I bet the Smyth and Svatos injuries have taken some air out of the team as well so if both teams play with no energy. Ick. Unless Foppa is ready to go, that could provide a spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I think tomorrow's game will be pretty boring, I bet the Smyth and Svatos injuries have taken some air out of the team as well so if both teams play with no energy. Ick. Unless Foppa is ready to go, that could provide a spark. Forgot to mention the other star players need to step up and lead this team. Big time for the twins. I still think you guys take tomorrow's game hands down however. Vancouver sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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