Best Habs Goaltender of all-time!

[jackp]

I didn't like Roy's attitude neither. But he was a great goalie, no doubt about it. What particularly irked me was his reaction to Mario Tremblay's first speech to the team. Roy was sitting in the back, giggling during the entire talk. Now I know Tremblay turned out to be a terrible coach, but a team player just doesn't do that. Roy was all about Roy. Under Demers, he would even determine who would play goal that night. (Of course, this was as much Demers' fault as Roy's.)

Everyone loves his wink at Sundstrom during the '93 playoffs. I thought it was a hot dog move by a hot dog player. I never liked it; as a Habs fan, I was actually embarassed by it. I know, as a player, that would have given me even more motivation to score on the smug bas---d. Good thing that Leclair settled things early in that overtime.

Roy also gave Detroit extra motivation with that guaranteed win comment. This time, his tendency to hot dog cost him big time.

For me, this guy was hot and cold. Hot, more often than cold, I admit. I think when sufficient time passes and people look back, Roy won't even be considered the best goalie of his era. I think Marty Brodeur will get that honor. (Imagine the hype had Brodeur played for Montreal)!

I don't agree with the poster who said that people prefer the goalie they grew up with. I think when you're a bit older (okay, maybe a lot older!), you have the advantage of having actually *seen* all the goalies being discussed. Thus, you're better able to make a comparison. I daresay that many of those who have voted for Roy, have never seen the other 2 (Dryden and Plante) play...

- Jack

[Colin]

Here's an interesting question to think about:

Would the Habs have won without Plante?

What about the dynasty of the 70's without Dryden?

Would Montreal have taken two Cups without Roy?

I think the answer for the first two questions is less obvious. While both goalies were outstanding, they had teams in front of them that were unreal. In Roy's case, though, you can make a very legitimate argument that he stole those two Cups on his own.

Doesn't answer anything, but food for thought, anyhow.

[JMMR]

Here's an interesting question to think about:

Would the Habs have won without Plante?

What about the dynasty of the 70's without Dryden?

Would Montreal have taken two Cups without Roy?

I think the answer for the first two questions is less obvious. While both goalies were outstanding, they had teams in front of them that were unreal. In Roy's case, though, you can make a very legitimate argument that he stole those two Cups on his own.

Doesn't answer anything, but food for thought, anyhow.

Would the Habs have won without Plante hmm Yes but not as often

Would the Habs have won without Dryden ? YEs but not as often.

As for Roy no doubt he was a King.

All in all the Habs have had many wonderful goalies and to judge between eras is so tough.

If I were to rank them in terms of Career

Roy

Dryden

Plante

but with the Habs

Plante

Roy

Dryden

[Mont Royale]

I think the answer for the first two questions is less obvious. While both goalies were outstanding, they had teams in front of them that were unreal. In Roy's case, though, you can make a very legitimate argument that he stole those two Cups on his own.

Doesn't answer anything, but food for thought, anyhow.

I agree that this argument could be made.

It could also be argued that the Habs were beneficiaries of other teams upsetting the overwhelming favourites in those 2 years (Edmonton in '86, Pittsburgh in '93). This doesn't diminish the team's or Roy's accomplishments - much like playing on a great team doesn't diminish Dryden and Plante's - but it would have been interesting to see how we would have fared against the best teams in those years.

[newfiehab27]

I seriously think that AEBISHER is being overlooked.

One thing that I've learned is that stats don't lie

Season Team League GP W L T MIN GA SO GAA SV%

2005-06 Montreal Canadiens NHL 7 4 3 0 418 26 0 3.73 .892

2006-07 Montreal Canadiens NHL 32 13 12 3 1760 93 0 3.17 .900

[Habsfan84]

First of all welcome to Habsworld newfiehabs27. I think I can speak for all the members here in saying were happy to have you here and look forward to your posts and replies. I hope you enjoy yourself.

[Wamsley01]

I didn't like Roy's attitude neither. But he was a great goalie, no doubt about it. What particularly irked me was his reaction to Mario Tremblay's first speech to the team. Roy was sitting in the back, giggling during the entire talk. Now I know Tremblay turned out to be a terrible coach, but a team player just doesn't do that. Roy was all about Roy. Under Demers, he would even determine who would play goal that night. (Of course, this was as much Demers' fault as Roy's.)

Everyone loves his wink at Sundstrom during the '93 playoffs. I thought it was a hot dog move by a hot dog player. I never liked it; as a Habs fan, I was actually embarassed by it. I know, as a player, that would have given me even more motivation to score on the smug bas---d. Good thing that Leclair settled things early in that overtime.

Roy also gave Detroit extra motivation with that guaranteed win comment. This time, his tendency to hot dog cost him big time.

For me, this guy was hot and cold. Hot, more often than cold, I admit. I think when sufficient time passes and people look back, Roy won't even be considered the best goalie of his era. I think Marty Brodeur will get that honor. (Imagine the hype had Brodeur played for Montreal)!

I don't agree with the poster who said that people prefer the goalie they grew up with. I think when you're a bit older (okay, maybe a lot older!), you have the advantage of having actually *seen* all the goalies being discussed. Thus, you're better able to make a comparison. I daresay that many of those who have voted for Roy, have never seen the other 2 (Dryden and Plante) play...

- Jack

A coach's job is to win. If that was the best way to treat Patrick Roy to get him to perform, then Demers did the right thing. I have never heard Muller,

Damphousse, Leclair, Desjardins ever utter a poor word about Roy as a teammate. It is actually the reverse.

Roy winked at Sandstrom because he was in the zone and knew that they were screwed. It would not have mattered how many OTs they played,

(remember that was before OT number 9 and 10) they were going to win because he forced his will on them. The guy stood up in the dressing room

and said no more goals. Keane and Muller have said that Roy was not a vocal Rah Rah guy, but when he stood up and talked everybody shut up and

listened. Once again, if it is good enough for the leaders on the team, it is good enough for me.

As far as Roy not being the best of his era, he could be recognized as the best of two era's. The 80s and 90s. You cannot define wins as the main category for greatness

when the definitiion of wins has changed. Just like the Red Wings when they finished with more wins than the Habs (60), the Habs played in an era where there was no OT.

Roy played half his career with 5 on 5 OT with no extra point and did not play in the era where you get a shootout win. Brodeur has played half his career with 4 on 4 OT.

Those 2 numbers dramatically alter the final numbers.

Goalie's are judged on what they did in the playoffs, and there has been no better goalie in the post expansion history. 3 Conn Smythe trophies, 10 straight OT victories

and 4 Stanley Cups is what defines Patrick Roy, not his career wins record. Until Brodeur better's those numbers, he will not be universally recognized as the best.

Would the Habs have won without Plante hmm Yes but not as often

Would the Habs have won without Dryden ? YEs but not as often.

As for Roy no doubt he was a King.

All in all the Habs have had many wonderful goalies and to judge between eras is so tough.

If I were to rank them in terms of Career

Roy

Dryden

Plante

but with the Habs

Plante

Roy

Dryden

I agree that Roy is not the best goalie if you judge him based on his time in Montreal, but if I were to do that it would be Dryden.

His numbers are unparalleled as a starter.

[Fat Tony]

I don't agree with the poster who said that people prefer the goalie they grew up with. I think when you're a bit older (okay, maybe a lot older!), you have the advantage of having actually *seen* all the goalies being discussed. Thus, you're better able to make a comparison. I daresay that many of those who have voted for Roy, have never seen the other 2 (Dryden and Plante) play...

- Jack

Well I kind of contradicted myself with that statement as I grew up watching Dryden. I can't remember Plante as a Habs but saw him with the Blues & Leafs, yet I still go with Plante and hope to change that to Price 15 years from now But your last line is pretty much word for word what I was saying that Roy's biggest supporters are in their 30's and is hands down the best goalie let alone Habs goalie they ever personally seen. And that's fair, you can't penalize them for being younger than you

[JMMR]

I agree that Roy is not the best goalie if you judge him based on his time in Montreal, but if I were to do that it would be Dryden.

His numbers are unparalleled as a starter.

Yeah but I also judge by the team in front of him.

I know Dryden stole some games but I could have been in the net some of those games and they still would have coasted to vistory.

[Fat Tony]

Here's an interesting question to think about:

Would the Habs have won without Plante?

What about the dynasty of the 70's without Dryden?

Would Montreal have taken two Cups without Roy?

I think the answer for the first two questions is less obvious. While both goalies were outstanding, they had teams in front of them that were unreal. In Roy's case, though, you can make a very legitimate argument that he stole those two Cups on his own.

Doesn't answer anything, but food for thought, anyhow.

That's a really great question. Plante's & some of Dryden's teams were great teams, all-time greats, so it's likely they could have won some of their cups with different goalies. I think we'll all agree that there's no way the Habs win their '86 & '93 cups without Roy.

[Wamsley01]

Yeah but I also judge by the team in front of him.

I know Dryden stole some games but I could have been in the net some of those games and they still would have coasted to vistory.

1971

Dryden leads the Canadiens to a Cup win by defeating a team that was the defending Cup champion, would be the Cup champion again

in 1972 and reach the Finals again in 1974, had arguably the best player of All-Time on it's roster, finished 23 pts ahead (in a time where

there was no free points) and scored over 100 goals more than the Habs that season.

Add to the fact that during his hiatus the Habs finished with 21 points less than the season before and 14 less than the season of his return

you could argue that the 76-77 Habs would not be considered the greatest team of all time without him.

He may not have been an innovator, but nobody accomplished as much in their stay with the tricolore as he did.

He had a .758 regular season Winning Percentage, a .714 Playoff Winning Percentage and won the Stanley Cup 6 times in 8 seasons.

Just like Plante, what came first. The chicken or the egg? Were they great because of Dryden/Plante or were they great because of the team?

I think he was a major contributor to their success and defined his whole legend with the Canadiens alone.

[Habsfan]

Let's not forget that Roy played in the high scoring era of the NHL... 80's and Early 90's, whereas Brodeur didn't.

Back in the 80's a goalie was considered very good if he had a GAA under 3.00, which Roy did almost every year. Teams like the Oilers would score well over 400 goals per season...we don't see that anymore.

Like someone else mentionned, the Habs of the 50's and 70's would have won most of their cups even without Plante or Dryden. The 86 and 93 Habs would have never won those cups without Roy!!

Edited March 12, 2008 by Habsfan

[Fat Tony]

I said it before and I'll say it again, great thread with plenty of compelling arguments for multiple goalies.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but I made a comment that 30 somethings would gravitate to Roy. As a laugh, I just checked the Roy supporters profiles...the ones with listed ages are as follows;

Habsfan - 31

Wamsley01 -34

sbhatt - 33

Helmethead -31

Shu - 16

mathieu30 - 30

So am I a genius yet or just a guy with waaaay too much free time

[Wamsley01]

I said it before and I'll say it again, great thread with plenty of compelling arguments for multiple goalies.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but I made a comment that 30 somethings would gravitate to Roy. As a laugh, I just checked the Roy supporters profiles...the ones with listed ages are as follows;

Habsfan - 31

Wamsley01 -34

sbhatt - 33

Helmethead -31

Shu - 16

mathieu30 - 30

So am I a genius yet or just a guy with waaaay too much free time

I believe the Cucumber is in his 30s and he went with Plante, Kozed is in his 30s as well I believe and he went with Roy.

I talked to Believeau1 who was around for Plante and he chose Plante.

The bias may work both ways. Some people do believe that they don't make them like they used to.

It definitely comes down to the determining factors as far as I am concerned. If you change the criteria you will most likely

get different answers.

Is it the best goalie based on their work as a Canadien? Then it becomes a battle between Plante and Dryden

Is it the best career from a player that played on the Canadiens? Then you can toss Tony Esposito and Rogie Vachon in to the mix

Is it the best playoff performer? Then Roy, Dryden and Plante are your men

Is it based on the regular season? Dryden and Plante again

Is it a goalie who took a team and made it overachieve? Then you have Dryden and Roy

Is it innovation? Then it is Roy and Plante

I don't think any goalie meets all those criteria, hence the debate that exists. I guess we should be lucky that the 15-35 year olds aren't

trying to tell you that Curtis Joseph/Felix Potvin is better than Terry Sawchuk, Turk Broda and Johnny Bower

[Wamsley01]

I bet Dick Irvin could settle this debate!

[Habsfan]

I said it before and I'll say it again, great thread with plenty of compelling arguments for multiple goalies.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but I made a comment that 30 somethings would gravitate to Roy. As a laugh, I just checked the Roy supporters profiles...the ones with listed ages are as follows;

Habsfan - 31

Wamsley01 -34

sbhatt - 33

Helmethead -31

Shu - 16

mathieu30 - 30

So am I a genius yet or just a guy with waaaay too much free time

No problem bud!

Obviously 30 somethings are gonna root for Roy. He was the man when we were growing up. But I know a few people older than I am(who saw Dryden Play) and they still think Roy was better.

How many cups would the Habs have won had Roy started his career in 1970 instead of 1986??? My guess is that they would have won it 10 years in a row...then again there's nothing scientific about my comment...it's just a personnal opinion.

I also saw Lafleur play when I was a kid. He retired when I was 8 years old. Even though the Lafleur I saw was nowhere near the superstar he was in the 70's, I can say without a doubt that nobody since him can even be considered at the same level. I'd even dare say that Lafleur was probably the best player to ever wear the Bleu Blanc Rouge...even better than Richard(please don't kill me )

Edited March 12, 2008 by Habsfan

[Habsfan]

I bet Dick Irvin could settle this debate!

Agreed. Even though Dick is now an old fart , he's pretty objective when it comes to these kinds of debates!

[Wamsley01]

No problem bud!

Obviously 30 somethings are gonna root for Roy. He was the man when we were growing up. But I know a few people older than I am(who saw Dryden Play) and they still think Roy was better.

How many cups would the Habs have won had Roy started his career in 1970 instead of 1986??? My guess is that they would have won it 10 years in a row...then again there's nothing scientific about my comment...it's just a personnal opinion.

I also saw Lafleur play when I was a kid. He retired when I was 8 years old. Even though the Lafleur I saw was nowhere near the superstar he was in the 70's, I can say without a doubt that nobody since him can even be considered at the same level. I'd even dare say that Lafleur was probably the best player to ever wear the Bleu Blanc Rouge...even better than Richard(please don't kill me )

Dick Irvin says Lafleur was the most exciting player to ever play for the bleu, blanc et rouge. But not the best.

Richard stood for more than hockey and can never be measured in his importance to this franchise. I wouldn't even try to make that argument

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Richard is a legend, a figure of myth...a man who incarnated all the aspirations and hopes of an entire people...who played through more pressure than any NHLer in history, probably...a man who means more to the :hlogo: than any other. You can argue over who our 'best' player was, but will never be a greater Habs than The Rocket. No argument!!!!

BTW, yes, I'm well over 30 and love Roy, but I vote Plante!!

Edited March 12, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Habsfan]

Richard is a legend, a figure of myth...a man who incarnated all the aspirations and hopes of an entire people...who played through more pressure than any NHLer in history, probably...a man who means more to the :hlogo: than any other. You can argue over who our 'best' player was, but will never be a greater Habs than The Rocket. No argument!!!!

BTW, yes, I'm well over 30 and love Roy, but I vote Plante!!

Oh I know what Richard ment to the people. My grandfather told me all about it. But in terms of pure talent, I think lafleur was more talented...hence the better career stats!

there's no doubt that Richard is the greatest legend in habs history!

[Fat Tony]

I bet Dick Irvin could settle this debate!

Someone should make it their quest to find a contact point because I for one would be real interested in hearing Dick Irvin's answer. I'd bet it would be Dryden with Roy a close second...because if memory serves me, his father hated Plante.

[Fat Tony]

I also saw Lafleur play when I was a kid. He retired when I was 8 years old. Even though the Lafleur I saw was nowhere near the superstar he was in the 70's, I can say without a doubt that nobody since him can even be considered at the same level. I'd even dare say that Lafleur was probably the best player to ever wear the Bleu Blanc Rouge...even better than Richard(please don't kill me )

Don't get going on players or this thread will end up 400 pages long I only knew The Rocket from legend and film plus a 2 minute chance meeting with him and Henri in an airport in the early 90's where I got both of their autographs...Rocket was still intense! I saw Lafleur from day one and remember how unimpressive he was for his first 3 years. I grew up watching the 70's teams and Lafleur was amazing from 1974-80...but to me guys like Cournoyer, Lemaire, Shutt, Pete Mahovolich were just as (if not more impressive). Still, Guy had 6 amazing seasons. The Rocket epitomizes Montreal Canadiens...he set the standard for goal scorers and is arguable the fiercest competitor to ever play the game...I think even Lafluer would sincerely give the nod to The Rocket.

[bookworm]

Since I can remember, my favourite Habs goalies in the order I saw them were; Vachon, Dryden, Penney, Theodore, Price. Dryden was pretty much my reason for playing goal. I learned to appreciate Plante near the end of his career and because of his excellent and still somewhat relevant book on goaltending.

Dryden's real gift was the ability to stand there leaning on his stick for 8 minutes and then make a heart stopping save. Any goalie will tell you that is a rare skill!

That is really cool that you started playing goal because of Dryden.

And I have to agree that it is a special skill to be able to not get shots for a long time and then make the big saves. I remember when Dryden retired Montreal traded for Denis Heron from Pittsburgh but they found out that he wasn't as good as he had been on Pittsburgh because of just that (I think he went back to Pittsburgh again).

Also don't forget that while some people say Montreal would have won all those Cups without Dryden the fact is they didn't win for several years after he retired and we just don't know whether they would have if he played a couple more years.

I also tend to believe that Dryden was as much responsible for the 1971 Cup as Roy was in 1986 or 1993. And no matter how good the other teams in front of him were I just feel that 6 Cups in 8 seasons is better than 2 Cups in however many seasons Roy played for us, even if he hadn't quit on us. Then throw in the fact that he did quit on us and I just can't see how he can be considered better.

[bookworm]

1971

Dryden leads the Canadiens to a Cup win by defeating a team that was the defending Cup champion, would be the Cup champion again

in 1972 and reach the Finals again in 1974, had arguably the best player of All-Time on it's roster, finished 23 pts ahead (in a time where

there was no free points) and scored over 100 goals more than the Habs that season.

Add to the fact that during his hiatus the Habs finished with 21 points less than the season before and 14 less than the season of his return

you could argue that the 76-77 Habs would not be considered the greatest team of all time without him.

He may not have been an innovator, but nobody accomplished as much in their stay with the tricolore as he did.

He had a .758 regular season Winning Percentage, a .714 Playoff Winning Percentage and won the Stanley Cup 6 times in 8 seasons.

Just like Plante, what came first. The chicken or the egg? Were they great because of Dryden/Plante or were they great because of the team?

I think he was a major contributor to their success and defined his whole legend with the Canadiens alone.

Very good points. I think of recent years when Ottawa seemed like a regular season powerhouse and then crumbled in the playoffs. If they had won two or three Cups people could have taken the view that they could have won them with any goalie, but they didn't win. That's just one of many examples.

I think quite often it's the team who's goalie performed the best that wins the Cup.

Having said all that, there have been a lot of great goalies play for Montreal. The debate could go on forever.

[Fat Tony]

That is really cool that you started playing goal because of Dryden.

And I have to agree that it is a special skill to be able to not get shots for a long time and then make the big saves. I remember when Dryden retired Montreal traded for Denis Heron from Pittsburgh but they found out that he wasn't as good as he had been on Pittsburgh because of just that (I think he went back to Pittsburgh again).

Also don't forget that while some people say Montreal would have won all those Cups without Dryden the fact is they didn't win for several years after he retired and we just don't know whether they would have if he played a couple more years.

I also tend to believe that Dryden was as much responsible for the 1971 Cup as Roy was in 1986 or 1993. And no matter how good the other teams in front of him were I just feel that 6 Cups in 8 seasons is better than 2 Cups in however many seasons Roy played for us, even if he hadn't quit on us. Then throw in the fact that he did quit on us and I just can't see how he can be considered better.

Dryden's performance in 1971 was lights out, the best I can ever remember. This tall lanky kid comes out of nowhere, plays 6 regular season games, is unconscious in 20 playoff games to win the Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe. Follow that up with the Calder, All Star selection and Team Canada 1972 goalie and wow, could you have a better start to a career than that?!?! If we are to measure greatness by most cups in shortest time, Dryden wins that battle for sure...although Plante's 6 cups (including 5 in a row) in his first 8 years ain't too shabby either.