Jump to content

Sundin.....any thoughts


Harp77

Recommended Posts

Yea, Higgins is playing out of position, by that i mean he is NOT a top line LW. He is a perfect 3rd line LW who does many things very well except score, which top line wingers do.

He is extremely valuable player, speed, great on the walls, puck possesion, pk, pp and if he continues to score in the high 20's i'd be very happy. Put him with 2 good, 2 way players and that line would be very valuable.

Example: Higgins Chiphura Malone type player. A line like that is very good in all 3 zones, could get you 50 goals and shut down opponants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 190
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Couldn't he also be like Ryan Malone in terms of scenario?

Malone did fine because he had Malkin. I don't think Malone is anything special and whoever is going to sign him at 4M$ is in for a big surprise.

I still wouldn't give up on Higgins though. I still think he'll turn into one of those players who does everything right and that every team wants to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Higgins is great...and there's still a chance he'll calm down and stop hurrying his scoring chances. Were he to do that, he'd easily crack 30-35 goals instead of just being a useful all-around player and team leader.

But he is the guy that other teams seem to want, and you have to think that, if Bob does pull the trigger on a big deal, it'll involve him. Note that this wouldn't be the same as "giving up" on Higgins; it would be part of giving fair value back in a trade for an elite forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sundin is a perennial underachiever. However I'd take him in a heart beat at the maximum allowed salary.

Being in Leaf country I've seen Sundin play a lot, and yes, he is that good. Sundin can pretty much score at will, at least when he wants to.

Out of all the players I seriously believe that back in the day Sundin could have actually put up Lemieux and Gretzky type stats only he doest seem to always try as hard nor has he had the advantage of playing with Hall of Fame linemates like 66 & 99 had.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sundin is a perennial underachiever. However I'd take him in a heart beat at the maximum allowed salary.

Being in Leaf country I've seen Sundin play a lot, and yes, he is that good. Sundin can pretty much score at will, at least when he wants to.

Out of all the players I seriously believe that back in the day Sundin could have actually put up Lemieux and Gretzky type stats only he doest seem to always try as hard nor has he had the advantage of playing with Hall of Fame linemates like 66 & 99 had.

An underachiever? I don't see that. He's one of the few guys who gives a consistent effort out there for the Leafs, regardless of how futile it is to do so. It's absolutely true that he hasn't often had decent linemates, but he's no Gretzky or Lemieux either. Sundin is less about on-ice vision and more about overpowering the defence all around the net, not to mention a great shot.

I'd agree that if the Habs can get him, get it done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An underachiever? I don't see that. He's one of the few guys who gives a consistent effort out there for the Leafs, regardless of how futile it is to do so. It's absolutely true that he hasn't often had decent linemates, but he's no Gretzky or Lemieux either. Sundin is less about on-ice vision and more about overpowering the defence all around the net, not to mention a great shot.

I'd agree that if the Habs can get him, get it done.

I also question the tag of underachiever. The guy puts up 80 points yearly and has been saddled with the likes of Jonas Hoglund, Nik Antropov, Alexei Ponikoravsky, Darcy Tucker, Dmitri Khristich, etc etc. The only elite level wingers he has played with in his prime were Roberts and Mogilny and they were past their prime.

When he did play with elite talent in Sakic, Nolan and Forsberg he put up 100+ points.

The Leafs have always been smoke and mirrors during Sundin's tenure. A leaky defence corp with fantastic goaltending and just past their prime

stars that knew how to win, but were not really legitimate contenders.

Their best chance in 2002 revolved around top scorers Tucker, Mogilny, Renberg, Reichel, Roberts, Hoglund and Corson. None of which had more than

60 points. Sundin has the ability to take over games, he has the ability to make marginal players productive, but he has proven throughout his career that

he cannot turn marginal talent into elite talent.

I don't think that is underachieving. Guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are generational talents, Sundin is not anywhere near their class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, if Sundin is an underachiever what the heck is Koivu?

Don't be blinded by because he is a Leaf, anyone would want that guy on there team. He makes everyone he plays with better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, if Sundin is an underachiever what the heck is Koivu?

Don't be blinded by because he is a Leaf, anyone would want that guy on there team. He makes everyone he plays with better.

Being a Leaf is a Red Flag on any Resume!

1. Underachieving.

2. Consistantly losing important games.

3. Ultimate choke team in sports.

4. Retirement community for underachievers.

5. Overhyped athletes (Sundin is one, good offensively but useless in his end)

6. Have/will never reach Cup finals since 67.

7. Coasters and whiners from coaching on down with a defeatist attitude.

How does the Habs change this culture of self destruction of x-leafs in short order?

1. Have the new guy (Sundin) humm the new Hockey Night in RDS song.

2. Show him what a champion is by giving him pictures of past Habs winning teams.

3. Offer him a paycheque with CH logos all over it.

4. Give him a copy of the Rocket video.

5. Show him the money! (Leafs low balled him last year)

Yes this is a lttle over the top, but this board is slow right now (Outside of HWL) and I am just trying to be funny.

....

...

..

.

Or not... :hockey: :hlogo: :hlogo: :hlogo:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Being a Leaf is a Red Flag on any Resume!

1. Underachieving.

2. Consistantly losing important games.

3. Ultimate choke team in sports.

4. Retirement community for underachievers.

5. Overhyped athletes (Sundin is one, good offensively but useless in his end)

6. Have/will never reach Cup finals since 67.

7. Coasters and whiners from coaching on down with a defeatist attitude.

Yes this is a lttle over the top, but this board is slow right now (Outside of HWL) and I am just trying to be funny.

I'm glad you said you were being funny because most of what you said is wrong.

Sundin is a champion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also question the tag of underachiever. The guy puts up 80 points yearly and has been saddled with the likes of Jonas Hoglund, Nik Antropov, Alexei Ponikoravsky, Darcy Tucker, Dmitri Khristich, etc etc. The only elite level wingers he has played with in his prime were Roberts and Mogilny and they were past their prime.

When he did play with elite talent in Sakic, Nolan and Forsberg he put up 100+ points.

....

Sundin has the ability to take over games, he has the ability to make marginal players productive, but he has proven throughout his career that

he cannot turn marginal talent into elite talent.

I don't think that is underachieving. Guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are generational talents, Sundin is not anywhere near their class.

Sundin gets 80 points a year so therefore he cant be an underachiever? Sundin has so much talent he should be capable of getting 80 goals a year, so ya my original statement stands that he is an underachiever (as great as he is). Ayything shy of 120 pts/yr is underachieving for Sundin. Sundin is that good!

Sundin is definitely in Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs talent class, only he underachieves. Sundin playing at 80% is better than 90% of the league who are giving 110%

Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs didnt have a neuropsychiatric disorder but Sundin does. It might not have anything to do with it, but it probably does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sundin gets 80 points a year so therefore he cant be an underachiever? Sundin has so much talent he should be capable of getting 80 goals a year, so ya my original statement stands that he is an underachiever (as great as he is). Ayything shy of 120 pts/yr is underachieving for Sundin. Sundin is that good!

Sundin is definitely in Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs talent class, only he underachieves. Sundin playing at 80% is better than 90% of the league who are giving 110%

Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs didnt have a neuropsychiatric disorder but Sundin does. It might not have anything to do with it, but it probably does.

I guess the fact that he has never achieved 120 pts in his career is cause to create that standard for him.

I guess Mario Lemieux was an underachiever as well as Wayne Gretzky. Because Gretzky had the potential to

score 215 points per season. He actually did it. But anything less than 215 must have been an underachievement.

So he underachieved for 95% of his career. What a waste.

I live in Toronto, I have seen Mats Sundin's whole career. I have seen Gretzky and Lemieux's career's.

And Mats Sundin is no Wayne Gretzky.

The fact that I spent 4 minutes typing this out and did not ignore this is amazing to me. :wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gretzky ,Lemieux, and Orr are the only 3 names whinch deserve to be used in the same sentence when you are discussing greatness.

Jagr even said it, and I agree. All this comparing Crosby to these guys, or anyone else is nonsense. All the other elites, including Sundin, do not deserve that kind of status.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gretzky ,Lemieux, and Orr are the only 3 names whinch deserve to be used in the same sentence when you are discussing greatness.

Jagr even said it, and I agree. All this comparing Crosby to these guys, or anyone else is nonsense. All the other elites, including Sundin, do not deserve that kind of status.

I dont know but I think there are a couple more names that could go in there like maybe Howe Richard Beliveau just a thought oh and maybe Roy Plant Ah well I'm sure you get the idea

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Mats really wanted to stay you think he would be acting like this? If he wants to stay, he is sure

putting them through the ringer :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Mats really wanted to stay you think he would be acting like this? If he wants to stay, he is sure

putting them through the ringer :)

Agreed....I think he is toying with them, extracting a little revenge for the way they treated him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i just read about this sundin thing in the paper the other day.

I hope he signs with detroit ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sundin gets 80 points a year so therefore he cant be an underachiever? Sundin has so much talent he should be capable of getting 80 goals a year, so ya my original statement stands that he is an underachiever (as great as he is). Ayything shy of 120 pts/yr is underachieving for Sundin. Sundin is that good!

Sundin is definitely in Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs talent class, only he underachieves. Sundin playing at 80% is better than 90% of the league who are giving 110%

Gretzky, Lemieux and Orrs didnt have a neuropsychiatric disorder but Sundin does. It might not have anything to do with it, but it probably does.

I would say to calm this down.

I would say that you are totally right about that. No matter what, Sundin will always finish a season with 80 pts.

In my mind the elite of hockey is separated in a few categories :

Leaders : Stevens, Messier, Yzerman, Bourque, etc.

Skaters : Coffey, Niedermayer, Bure, Zetterberg (maybe not as fast as the others but i like his skating), etc.

Big men / hard workers : Iginla, Lecavalier, Malkin, Jagr, Lindros in his prime, Chara, etc.

Pure skills : Crosby, Ovechkin, Datsyuk, Kovy, etc.

Snipers : Hull, Robitaille, etc.

Playmakers : Thornton, Oates, etc.

But the players I like the most are in this caterory " Intelligent, really skilled players"

Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Lidstrom, Sundin IMO the best HOCKEY players, those who IMHO understand the most how to play this game.

Those guys just don't seem to work hard every shifts. I know they work very hard every shifts, but they seem so calm and natural.

How many times did I say to me "Man, where the hell is Lemieux, oh he just scored !." Same for everyone there. How Sundin can always finish with 80+ points? I don't see most of his points because he is the 2nd pass, the one who created this goal, same for Sakic.

These guys are amazing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Lidstrom, Sundin IMO the best HOCKEY players, those who IMHO understand the most how to play this game.

Those guys just don't seem to work hard every shifts. I know they work very hard every shifts, but they seem so calm and natural.

These guys are amazing.

But the difference between Gretzky, Lemieux, Lidstrom and Sakic is that when provided with an opportunity to take over a game

they all did.

Gretzky continually raised his game when it was needed most, 2 Conn Smythe trophies and a 5 point night in Game 7 against

the Leafs to lift his team to the Stanley Cup FInals.

Lemieux's 2 Conn Smythe trophies and destroying the Bruins and Stars all by himself in the 1991 Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Lidstrom's Conn Smythe in 2002 and the anchor of the 2008 Champs.

Sakic's Conn Smythe trophy in 1996 along with his multiple OT Winner in that year's playoffs. Most notably in Chicago trailing 2-1 in the series.

Sundin....um...Sundin...two trips to the Conference Finals, two disappearing acts. He has had plenty of opportunity to raise his level and

has repeatedly failed. Look at Alfreddson last season, he left everything on the ice and carried the Sens to the Finals and was the only guy

who produced in the Final. He has a similar career to Sundin and would anybody put him in the same sentence as those players?

No chance. Sundin is a workhorse, he is consistent, he is an All-Star. But he is a borderline Hall of Famer in my eyes, and if he played the

majority of his career with the Florida Panthers he would probably suffer the same fate as Dino Ciccarelli, Mike Gartner, Pat Verbeek etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the difference between Gretzky, Lemieux, Lidstrom and Sakic is that when provided with an opportunity to take over a game

they all did.

Gretzky continually raised his game when it was needed most, 2 Conn Smythe trophies and a 5 point night in Game 7 against

the Leafs to lift his team to the Stanley Cup FInals.

Lemieux's 2 Conn Smythe trophies and destroying the Bruins and Stars all by himself in the 1991 Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Lidstrom's Conn Smythe in 2002 and the anchor of the 2008 Champs.

Sakic's Conn Smythe trophy in 1996 along with his multiple OT Winner in that year's playoffs. Most notably in Chicago trailing 2-1 in the series.

Sundin....um...Sundin...two trips to the Conference Finals, two disappearing acts. He has had plenty of opportunity to raise his level and

has repeatedly failed. Look at Alfreddson last season, he left everything on the ice and carried the Sens to the Finals and was the only guy

who produced in the Final. He has a similar career to Sundin and would anybody put him in the same sentence as those players?

No chance. Sundin is a workhorse, he is consistent, he is an All-Star. But he is a borderline Hall of Famer in my eyes, and if he played the

majority of his career with the Florida Panthers he would probably suffer the same fate as Dino Ciccarelli, Mike Gartner, Pat Verbeek etc.

True. But play him in a better team (in my mind Toronto is not a good team and never was even with Gilmour, Mogilny, etc.) and maybe he would have steped his game up. Sometimes, you need to be inspired by your teamates to step up. Sundin never had good teammates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True. But play him in a better team (in my mind Toronto is not a good team and never was even with Gilmour, Mogilny, etc.) and maybe he would have steped his game up. Sometimes, you need to be inspired by your teamates to step up. Sundin never had good teammates.

I would buy that argument if the Leafs two Conference title losses were not against Buffalo and Carolina.

Both times the Leafs had the better record and both times they were the favourite.

But the Leafs made the same mistake the Canadiens made with Koivu. He is a great player, but not a guy to build your team around.

He is a complimentary player who can excel if he is put in the proper enviroment, like when he was the 2nd or 3rd banana in Quebec,

but he has failed repeatedly as the focal point. That is the reason I would like him in Montreal, he may step in as the best player, but

it would not be his team and the pressure would be spread throughout the squad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...