Compensation for Sundin?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Stay cool, folks.

Sundin would be an amazing addition and make us one of the very top teams, at least on paper, in the NHL.

But even if he doesn't come aboard, Bob will have other options - e.g., other UFAs; and let's remember that, without losing a single roster player, he has already added Alex Tanguay to a lineup that finished first in the East last season, and which is filled with young players who will likely get even better next season.

In other words, even without Sundin, Bob has scored a huge coup (Tanguay) and we're still one of the best teams in the league.

Also remember that the media needs stuff to report. With all the excitement the initial Sundin story generated, it's not surprising that the subsequent 'lull' feels like a letdown, and that they're trying to fill the void with any scrap of 'info' they can produce.

In short: if we get Sundin, then BAM! If not, then hey, we're still friggin' good.

I really have no appetitite for a replay of the feast of self-loathing and recrimination and pessimism that followed the Briere debacle last summer.

[Habitforming]

Here is a pretty informative timeline on how things occurred. It all makes sense it just smells like Shannahan, Brierre, etc.....bullcrap all over again. I'm out!

Time line

I don't buy the timeline either.

Toronto just offers up the neg rights to NY for free, right before the make a deal with Montreal for the same thing but exchanging assets for it?

I don't buy it... McKenzies sources are feeding him bad info.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't buy the timeline either.

Toronto just offers up the neg rights to NY for free, right before the make a deal with Montreal for the same thing but exchanging assets for it?

I don't buy it... McKenzies sources are feeding him bad info.

Could be as simple as NY refusing to pay for the rights. No?

[Habitforming]

Stay cool, folks.

Sundin would be an amazing addition and make us one of the very top teams, at least on paper, in the NHL.

But even if he doesn't come aboard, Bob will have other options - e.g., other UFAs; and let's remember that, without losing a single roster player, he has already added Alex Tanguay to a lineup that finished first in the East last season, and which is filled with young players who will likely get even better next season.

In other words, even without Sundin, Bob has scored a huge coup (Tanguay) and we're still one of the best teams in the league.

Also remember that the media needs stuff to report. With all the excitement the initial Sundin story generated, it's not surprising that the subsequent 'lull' feels like a letdown, and that they're trying to fill the void with any scrap of 'info' they can produce.

In short: if we get Sundin, then BAM! If not, then hey, we're still friggin' good.

I really have no appetitite for a replay of the feast of self-loathing and recrimination and pessimism that followed the Briere debacle last summer.

That line right there is the only truth I have seen printed since the Sundin thing started.

To me, Higgins + Tanguay = 35 or more goals for Higgins

[Wamsley01]

I agree. If we get Sundin great, if we don't at least Bob gave up nothing but gained the information that he

has no interest in signing with us and he can pursue somebody else without wasting time on Sundin for free.

All you have to do is look back and remember all of the misinformation released by these credible sources

about Sundin and his no trade clause 3 months ago.

The only cold hard fact we know is Gainey has the exclusive rights. We heard it from Fletcher's mouth and Gainey's.

The rest is all speculation from journalists.

[johnnyhasbeen]

You obviously never watched the Leafs in the 1980s. When the Leafs employed glorious captains like Rick Vaive and Rob Ramage

They were worse for sure, but Sundin has lost way more games as captain, and has led the team to no finals the longest of any captain in that teams (and I use that term loosely) history, he past Sittler, the other great loser. That is why he is the losingest as I put it. Not his fault, as it wasn't Sittlers, but that doesn't change the fact. They both lost a hell of a lot of hockey in their days. I prefer winners myself. (As in Bob Gainey, Guy Lafluer, Carbo, J Beliveau, Either Richard........ could go on, but winners, not losers) Does it really matter how talented a player is at the end of the day if they can't win a game? I don't think it does. I would rather an over achieving not so talented player that somehow finds a way to win. It is not a skills competition out there you know.

On another note. Just because Gainey gave Saku his extension doesn't mean he keeps him now. The team has changed a bit since that signing, No? You actually would pay $4.75 mill for a 3rd/4th line centre? That is nutty. . He has no spot on the roster, "IF" we sign a REAL top centre to take his spot on the 2nd line. I see so many fans that are blinded by his heart and confuse that with the fact that he can't seem to lead a team beyond round 2. That is a brutal fact. I don't want another great year that ends in the 2nd round (again, this is not a skills competition, or a biggest sob story gets the cup event). SO, those who think he will stay think he will then take less for next season, and be a captain that what, rides the pines? Now that would really be dumb. Thank you Saku, you were great, but your time is up. Aging centre on a team with better vet centers (if we can sign one) and young centers coming up? Don't see it. That is my opinion. Oh, and no, we won't be retiring your number.

Kovy will have a season like last year and will re-sign, Saks will go play with Teemu somewhere so they can Finnish their carreers together.

This is all just my speculation, you can all have your own. That is the point of speculation.

[Habitforming]

They were worse for sure, but Sundin has lost way more games as captain, and has led the team to no finals the longest of any captain in that teams (and I use that term loosely) history, he past Sittler, the other great loser. That is why he is the losingest as I put it. Not his fault, as it wasn't Sittlers, but that doesn't change the fact. They both lost a hell of a lot of hockey in their days. I prefer winners myself. (As in Bob Gainey, Guy Lafluer, Carbo, J Beliveau, Either Richard........ could go on, but winners, not losers) Does it really matter how talented a player is at the end of the day if they can't win a game? I don't think it does. I would rather an over achieving not so talented player that somehow finds a way to win. It is not a skills competition out there you know.

On another note. Just because Gainey gave Saku his extension doesn't mean he keeps him now. The team has changed a bit since that signing, No? You actually would pay $4.75 mill for a 3rd/4th line centre? That is nutty. . He has no spot on the roster, "IF" we sign a REAL top centre to take his spot on the 2nd line. I see so many fans that are blinded by his heart and confuse that with the fact that he can't seem to lead a team beyond round 2. That is a brutal fact. I don't want another great year that ends in the 2nd round (again, this is not a skills competition, or a biggest sob story gets the cup event). SO, those who think he will stay think he will then take less for next season, and be a captain that what, rides the pines? Now that would really be dumb. Thank you Saku, you were great, but your time is up. Aging centre on a team with better vet centers (if we can sign one) and young centers coming up? Don't see it. That is my opinion. Oh, and no, we won't be retiring your number.

Kovy will have a season like last year and will re-sign, Saks will go play with Teemu somewhere so they can Finnish their carreers together.

This is all just my speculation, you can all have your own. That is the point of speculation.

That statement is as much BS as is written about the Sundin saga.

Like you say, it isn't a talent competition so why should one player be "able to lead" bad teams past the second round?

None of those teams were even close to contenders but they did manage to upset the 1st and 2nd seeds in that stretch. Leadership is important, but it never determines who wins.

[Wamsley01]

They were worse for sure, but Sundin has lost way more games as captain, and has led the team to no finals the longest of any captain in that teams (and I use that term loosely) history, he past Sittler, the other great loser. That is why he is the losingest as I put it. Not his fault, as it wasn't Sittlers, but that doesn't change the fact. They both lost a hell of a lot of hockey in their days. I prefer winners myself. (As in Bob Gainey, Guy Lafluer, Carbo, J Beliveau, Either Richard........ could go on, but winners, not losers) Does it really matter how talented a player is at the end of the day if they can't win a game? I don't think it does. I would rather an over achieving not so talented player that somehow finds a way to win. It is not a skills competition out there you know.

Sundin won more than he lost as captain though and he enjoyed more success post expansion than any other Leaf captain.

He didn't win because the team was flawed. They were never real Cup contenders. They had shoddy defence, a ton of grit

and unbelievable goaltending. It is not a coincidence that they got better with the arrival of Cujo.

Maybe he could have stepped up in the 2002 Conference FInals against Carolina, but other than that. That team overachieved.

They should not have beaten Ottawa once, let alone 4 times.

Gainey, Carbo, Lafleur would not have won anything with Jonus Hoglund as their first line winger. Sundin is a solid NHL player

who on nights looks like a star and others a Superstar. He is not in the mold of Crosby, Ovechkin etc.

But he is a damn good player, and it is misleading to overemphasize his loss total without mentioning his 400+ wins as captain.

[Ecurb]

When I hear a rumour, and we know most of them are media driven drivel. I try

to see if they make sense. In the case of the Rangers being interested in Sundin,

it just makes no sense.

The one position that the Rangers have depth in is at C. They way overpaid for

both Gomez and Drury and they have a fine young C in Dubinsky. All 4 of the

Rangers top wingers are UFA's. As of now their top 2 wingers are Prucha and

Callahan. Their top offensive dman in Rozsival is also a UFA. Seems to me that

the last ting they'd be looking for is another C. They do have near 25M to spend

but they have alot of other holes to fill. So, I doubt they are even interested in

Sundin.

As for who we will keep and not keep after the 08-09 season, it all depends on

who we end up with. And keep in mind the cap has gone up every year. It could

be at 60M for the 09-10 season.

I didn't feel this Sundin saga would end anytime soon. He might not decide on what

he's going to do till well after July 1st. I've read that he wants to stay in the East and

also heard because of investment issues he'll want to stay in Canada, I have NO idea

how true those statements are.

But, I do know this. Sundin is a perfect fit for us, we know it, Gainey knows it, Sundin

must realize it also. Our style would suit him perfectly and we have loads of talented

wingers we could put on his wings. Adding Sundin makes us the team to beat in the

East and gives Sundin a chance to win that cup that has eluded him. Sundin has been

jerked around by the Leafs and he's not about to let them set his timetable for

re-signing with anyone. My guess is Gainey after his conversation with Sundin realized

he needed time and space to make a decision and will give him that time and space.

So, we're on Sundin time, get used to it and lets be patient. I still think he ends up a

Habs.

[Chris]

If i am not mistaken he led his team to several golds and a world championship as captain as well.

As Wamsley states, he is a really good player and would upgrade this team in many ways immediately. Koivu and Kovalev aren't taking these guys anywhere.

All this is speculation anyway, I for one would be very happy if they can sign him. If they don't they still upgraded a winger for Koivu and that will make the Habs better.

[sbhatt]

On another note. Just because Gainey gave Saku his extension doesn't mean he keeps him now. The team has changed a bit since that signing, No? You actually would pay $4.75 mill for a 3rd/4th line centre? That is nutty. . He has no spot on the roster, "IF" we sign a REAL top centre to take his spot on the 2nd line. I see so many fans that are blinded by his heart and confuse that with the fact that he can't seem to lead a team beyond round 2. That is a brutal fact. I don't want another great year that ends in the 2nd round (again, this is not a skills competition, or a biggest sob story gets the cup event). SO, those who think he will stay think he will then take less for next season, and be a captain that what, rides the pines? Now that would really be dumb.

You're not the only person speculating that Saku's gone if we land Sundin, but I really don't understand such speculation because you're forgetting that Saku is the one gets to decide if he plays in Montreal this coming season....not Bob Gainey. He has a no-movement clause in his contract, remember? And as several Leafs with such clauses have shown, players aren't all that open to the idea of waiving their no-movement rights.

Edited June 24, 2008 by sbhatt

[Athlétique.Canadien]

This is pure and utter garbage! Take your pick. Between Larry Brooks (unreliable), the National Post, TSN, the Montreal media and the Toronto Star are all reporting contradictory info on Mats.

Bob McKenzie says that Gainey ISN'T going to Sweden but according to the National Post, he's leaving tomorrow. All of these media outlets are writing speculative "warm and fuzzy" articles on Sundin's intentions. Larry Brooks makes it sound like he's already a Ranger.

DON'T BUY IT - ANY OF IT!

[johnnyhasbeen]

Sundin won more than he lost as captain though and he enjoyed more success post expansion than any other Leaf captain.

He didn't win because the team was flawed. They were never real Cup contenders. They had shoddy defence, a ton of grit

and unbelievable goaltending. It is not a coincidence that they got better with the arrival of Cujo.

Maybe he could have stepped up in the 2002 Conference FInals against Carolina, but other than that. That team overachieved.

They should not have beaten Ottawa once, let alone 4 times.

Gainey, Carbo, Lafleur would not have won anything with Jonus Hoglund as their first line winger. Sundin is a solid NHL player

who on nights looks like a star and others a Superstar. He is not in the mold of Crosby, Ovechkin etc.

But he is a damn good player, and it is misleading to overemphasize his loss total without mentioning his 400+ wins as captain.

Before the lock out, the Leafs spent an absolute fortune trying to bring every player they could in to win a cup, with Sardine as the capt. It failed if I am not mistaken. The team was by no means flawed as I remember it,They just under achieved big time. Nope, nothing to do with leadership. And Lafluer and Lemaire, would have done just fine with Hoglund. Guy wasn't the centre. Even Trembley looked good on that team. But how a bout Ruzinsky, Kovalev, Bure, Rechi,Zednik.... you name a bum he had which I actually don't even remember playing on his line, why not name the real players he failed with? The guys who made his numbers look decent. All did worse with him as a centre than any other point in their careers. But what would that mean? Nothing to those with blinders on. Please, how many games did he have anything but players that were top 2 liners elsewhere as his linemates? Not alot. Why not admit that his time is over? Stop holding onto the crappy past when things are improving. He is part of a real bad era and should be let go.

[Wamsley01]

Before the lock out, the Leafs spent an absolute fortune trying to bring every player they could in to win a cup, with Sardine as the capt. It failed if I am not mistaken. The team was by no means flawed as I remember it,They just under achieved big time. Nope, nothing to do with leadership. And Lafluer and Lemaire, would have done just fine with Hoglund. Guy wasn't the centre. Even Trembley looked good on that team. But how a bout Ruzinsky, Kovalev, Bure, Rechi,Zednik.... you name a bum he had which I actually don't even remember playing on his line, why not name the real players he failed with? The guys who made his numbers look decent. All did worse with him as a centre than any other point in their careers. But what would that mean? Nothing to those with blinders on. Please, how many games did he have anything but players that were top 2 liners elsewhere as his linemates? Not alot. Why not admit that his time is over? Stop holding onto the crappy past when things are improving. He is part of a real bad era and should be let go.

So you are telling me that the 2000 team with a 36 year old Steve Thomas, Jonus Hoglund, Igor Korolev, Yanic Perreault, Sergei Berezin and Dmitiri Khristich

was a good team? Bolstered by the defence of Tomas Kaberle, Berard, Yuskevich and Karpotsev?

When does it get better? A 34 year old Gary Roberts and his 50 points in 2001? Aki Berg?

Look at the 2002 Conference Final team. Tucker, a banged up Mogilny who played 60 games, Renberg, Reichel, Roberts.

At what point is a defensive core of McCabe, Kaberle, Yuskevich, Berg, Lumme and Cory Cross a good team?

That team was propped up by Curtis Joseph and later Ed Belfour. Three 100+ point seasons and a division title with that roster?

Are you kidding me? They UNDERachieved? Really?

If you do not remember Jonus Hoglund playing on Sundin's line you have no leg to stand on. You didn't watch many Leaf games.

He played with him for 2+ seasons, ON THE FIRST LINE. You probably would have noticed him.

Sundin outscored Sittler, won more games, made the conference final twice, lead his team to more division titles and more playoff wins than Sittler.

Add in Vaive, Clark, Ramage and Sundin has little to be ashamed of in his leadership of the Maple Leafs.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Wamsley01

[kenadian]

PASS on him; if he hasn't even "decided" if he's going to play this year that tells me his heart isn't in the game anymore (too many poor leaf teams, etc) so let the Rangers overpay (once again) and we can move on and move up.........

[Wamsley01]

PASS on him; if he hasn't even "decided" if he's going to play this year that tells me his heart isn't in the game anymore (too many poor leaf teams, etc) so let the Rangers overpay (once again) and we can move on and move up.........

It is the way Sundin is. He mulls over everything for weeks at a time. It drives the Toronto media nuts.

I would not be surprised if he took a couple more weeks and signed with the Habs on July 4th or 5th.

[sakiqc]

Sundin coming to Montreal is kind of odd. Not only would he play for the arch-rival team of the only 2 teams he played for (Quebec Nordiques and Toronto Maple Leafs), but him, the Swedish Captain would play under the shadow of arch rival Finnish Captain Saku Koivu. I understand if he has to think about it over. Is it what he wants? Would he play his heart out to bring a 25th Cup in the Canadiens' 100th year?

If he comes, where does that leave Plekanec? Sundin is great, but he's not everything. We can always go after Sakic and Jagr.

[InsaneHABSfan]

Gang, FYI:

GM Fletcher was on Fan590 today and said he never talked to the Rangers. He delt the Exclusive rights to Montreal. He asked the Fan590 guys what part of Exclusive the media does not understand.

Fletcher is an honest honourable GM who respects his peers.

OK, gotta go.

Peace..............

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Saw this on another board. Another poster claimed they heard Scotty Morrison on AM640 Toronto radio say the Habs offered Sundin a 2 year $14.6 million.

PS. Beware, this was from another poster who heard it on radio.

[Sir_Boagalott]

umm, isnt the Rags rumor aboot another player?

My dad keeps telling me the Laffs also gave Rags the rights to talk to Sundin, but everything I've read and seen says different and that only the Habs have exclusive rights to talk with Sundin.

Its my understanding that the Rags, Habs, and Wings have been given rights to talk to Brian Campbell before Jul 1st. Striet could be gone, and Campbell in. Not sure if Habs could land both Sundin and Campbell, but if Sundin accepts an amount similar to what he was getting in T.O. maybe they could get both.

[johnnyhasbeen]

So you are telling me that the 2000 team with a 36 year old Steve Thomas, Jonus Hoglund, Igor Korolev, Yanic Perreault, Sergei Berezin and Dmitiri Khristich

was a good team? Bolstered by the defence of Tomas Kaberle, Berard, Yuskevich and Karpotsev?

When does it get better? A 34 year old Gary Roberts and his 50 points in 2001? Aki Berg?

Look at the 2002 Conference Final team. Tucker, a banged up Mogilny who played 60 games, Renberg, Reichel, Roberts.

At what point is a defensive core of McCabe, Kaberle, Yuskevich, Berg, Lumme and Cory Cross a good team?

That team was propped up by Curtis Joseph and later Ed Belfour. Three 100+ point seasons and a division title with that roster?

Are you kidding me? They UNDERachieved? Really?

If you do not remember Jonus Hoglund playing on Sundin's line you have no leg to stand on. You didn't watch many Leaf games.

He played with him for 2+ seasons, ON THE FIRST LINE. You probably would have noticed him.

Sundin outscored Sittler, won more games, made the conference final twice, lead his team to more division titles and more playoff wins than Sittler.

Add in Vaive, Clark, Ramage and Sundin has little to be ashamed of in his leadership of the Maple Leafs.

I am talking about Saku's line mates, not Sundin, what the hell are you on about?

I think we are on different subjects.

I Talking about Koivu, not Sundin.

The Captain who can't get it done, beyond 2nd round, Saku.

Do you think I know or giva a rats bum about leaf stats?

Unlike you I don't live close or really care about them.

So you say Sundin's team was worse than Sittlers?

Not likely, but who cares.

No wonder I had no isea who this Hoglung guy was, he was a leaf.

Didn't thinmk he played with Saku, like the guys I mention did.

But go ahead, stick up for them, I know you want to!

No. I onl;y watch the Leafs play the Habs. Thankfully!

That is enough for me, unlike you who seems to follow them?

Sundin IS the losingest player to wear the C for toronto, although the "fans" don't like to agree.

Check out games lost and seasons as captain without a cup appearance, He wins!

I could care less if someone scores 200 goals a year, if he loses in the playoffs does it matter?

Not to me.

Edited June 24, 2008 by johnnyhasbeen

[simonus]

umm, isnt the Rags rumor aboot another player?

My dad keeps telling me the Laffs also gave Rags the rights to talk to Sundin, but everything I've read and seen says different and that only the Habs have exclusive rights to talk with Sundin.

Its my understanding that the Rags, Habs, and Wings have been given rights to talk to Brian Campbell before Jul 1st. Striet could be gone, and Campbell in. Not sure if Habs could land both Sundin and Campbell, but if Sundin accepts an amount similar to what he was getting in T.O. maybe they could get both.

nah, that rags thing is totally wrong - as has been hashed out earlier today (either in this thread or in the Tanguay thread).

I don't know about the veracity of the Campbell rumours, but there is simply no way we can fit Campbell, Sundin AND AK46 under the cap.

[Sir_Boagalott]

nah, that rags thing is totally wrong - as has been hashed out earlier today (either in this thread or in the Tanguay thread).

I don't know about the veracity of the Campbell rumours, but there is simply no way we can fit Campbell, Sundin AND AK46 under the cap.

The point I was trying to make is the Rags have been given permission to talk to a UFA before Jul 1st, but it wasnt Sundin, or even with the Laffs. The player in the rumor is wrong, its really Brian Campbell who the Rags have permission to talk to. The Habs + Wings have been granted the same. Apparently Campbell is yet another player who has strong ties to the East coast and doesnt really want to be in the West.

[Adirondack Bud]

I am talking about Saku's line mates, not Sundin, what the hell are you on about?

I think we are on different subjects.

I Talking about Koivu, not Sundin.

The Captain who can't get it done, beyond 2nd round, Saku.

Do you think I know or giva a rats bum about leaf stats?

Unlike you I don't live close or really care about them.

So you say Sundin's team was worse than Sittlers?

Not likely, but who cares.

No wonder I had no isea who this Hoglung guy was, he was a leaf.Didn't thinmk he played with Saku, like the guys I mention did.

But go ahead, stick up for them, I know you want to!

No. I onl;y watch the Leafs play the Habs. Thankfully!

That is enough for me, unlike you who seems to follow them?

Sundin IS the losingest player to wear the C for toronto, although the "fans" don't like to agree.

Check out games lost and seasons as captain without a cup appearance, He wins!

I could care less if someone scores 200 goals a year, if he loses in the playoffs does it matter?

Not to me.

seems like he played a year or two for the Habs before he went to the leafs. In the late 90's from what i remember. I think back then they were playing every one with Saku so he probably did play with him.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

If Campbell comes aboard he would be INSTEAD of Sundin, thanks to cap issues.

Clearly Gainey has a few irons in the fire, although anytime we're competing with the Wings in attracting UFAs, I expect us to lose. (I'm a pessimist that way).

Nonetheless, Campbell would represent a pretty lethal addition as well. Surprises may yet await us.