Sundin: will he sign here? (Take 2)

[BTH]

I love talking about our prospects, but this is probably not the right place

to do it. I'll have to checkout the prospect side more :hlogo:

I say sign Komisarek ASAP, I believe this might be his coming out season.

Is there anyone more relaxed on the Habs right now then Komisarek?

He doesn't have to be our enforcer anymore. Yup, sign him now, I'd go

4.5-5M, but not more then 6 years.

I think Komisarek would take a bit of a cut to stay with us but I'll still count ourselves amazingly lucky to get him at 4.5M or even 5. On the market, he could make 6M+ - and he'd still be worth it if it meant we'd lose him otherwise..

[CerebusClone]

Just what I was thinking, Wamsley. I think the Leaf fans have good reason to blame him now.

Using O'Byrne or Carle or Weber to get a prospect on the level of Cogliano is fine by me. But not Komisarek, he's far better than O'Byrne will ever be. You say they are comparable players but it is a 1st pairing and a 3rd pairing defenceman with similar traits and styles, they aren't comparable in talent or value. I wouldn't move Subban either, no prospect has been such an instant fan favourite in the past few years other than Price and Latendresse.

I never suggested they had similar value, I mentionned O'Byrne in a trade for Cogliano, but for us to trade Komisarek I would want one of the top young centers in the NHL (at least a Jeff Carter).

[BTH]

I never suggested they had similar value, I mentionned O'Byrne in a trade for Cogliano, but for us to trade Komisarek I would want one of the top young centers in the NHL (at least a Jeff Carter).

I know that but O'Byrne is at a level where players come and go, while trading Komisarek would mean we may never see another defenceman like him on our team in decades. In the long-term, we have more need at centre than on defence but for now, we have one of the two most threatening offences in the league and Komisarek will be of infinitely more help than Carter ever could for the 08-09 season. If Koivu, Kovalev and Tanguay left, then we can start considering such trades. For now, it's the last thing we want to do. If you NEED to trade a top-end defenceman shop around McDonagh but Gainey will never do that. If anyone were to go, it would be Carle or Fischer or Weber or Emelin or Valentenko. I could see him using O'Byrne if he tried assembling a package for a trade deadline upgrade but not really one-for-one for a centre. With Komisarek gone, our defence will be in more need than our current centre situation.

[ShortHanded]

I know that but O'Byrne is at a level where players come and go, while trading Komisarek would mean we may never see another defenceman like him on our team in decades. In the long-term, we have more need at centre than on defence but for now, we have one of the two most threatening offences in the league and Komisarek will be of infinitely more help than Carter ever could for the 08-09 season. If Koivu, Kovalev and Tanguay left, then we can start considering such trades. For now, it's the last thing we want to do. If you NEED to trade a top-end defenceman shop around McDonagh but Gainey will never do that. If anyone were to go, it would be Carle or Fischer or Weber or Emelin or Valentenko. I could see him using O'Byrne if he tried assembling a package for a trade deadline upgrade but not really one-for-one for a centre. With Komisarek gone, our defence will be in more need than our current centre situation.

Completely agree... If we want to trade one of our "high end D prospects" for a good young centre/prospect, but not Komi. We may not see another Komi for a long, long time... And the scary thing is, he could easily still get better.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Ahhhhhhhh boy............Just when I was starting to let go. Gainey speaks and starts the roller coaster ride all over again. Gainey sure does have a way with dealing with the media and my brain. He just might get Mats over here boys.

Here we go again!

[Habsfan]

Jezus Christ of Latterday Saints! Make up your mind already.

[MAK]

Jezus Christ of Latterday Saints! Make up your mind already.

I think that both gainey and Sundin know what will happen. if we don't see a move by the start of the season, chances of see sundin in mtl grow.

obviously if a move is made for a centre it'll mean tha BG has thrown the towel.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

I think that both gainey and Sundin know what will happen. if we don't see a move by the start of the season, chances of see sundin in mtl grow.

obviously if a move is made for a centre it'll mean tha BG has thrown the towel.

Very true. I'm so pissed. I really do understand that what Mats is going through is hard, but geez! Can't help being a frustrated fan knowing what he would bring to our team. I want to hate him and forget about him but it's hard. Especially when you see Gainey trying to talk him into it. That's the worst part. Bob is being really good with the words he chooses to use with the media but you can tell he really, really wants Mats something bad. I do hope it works out.

[Ecurb]

I think its between retirement or playing for the Habs

for Sundin.

If he's thought about playing for the Habs then 3 dates

come into play. October 11th and November 8th of this

year and April 4th of next year. Those are the 3 dates in

which the Habs play in Toronto.

If Sundin were to decide to play for the Habs in November

or December He avoids playing in Toronto till the end of

the season. It should be obvious by mid to late November

that the Leafs have a serious shot at getting Tavares. So,

Sundin says his heart is still with the Leafs but he doesn't

want to ruin their chance to get the 1st pick. He then signs

with the Habs. We save cap space to add another player

at the trade deadline. And we get to see how Chipchura

reacts to playing as a 3rd line C for a couple of months.

Kinda works for all parties, doesn't it?

[CerebusClone]

I think its between retirement or playing for the Habs

for Sundin.

If he's thought about playing for the Habs then 3 dates

come into play. October 11th and November 8th of this

year and April 4th of next year. Those are the 3 dates in

which the Habs play in Toronto.

If Sundin were to decide to play for the Habs in November

or December He avoids playing in Toronto till the end of

the season. It should be obvious by mid to late November

that the Leafs have a serious shot at getting Tavares. So,

Sundin says his heart is still with the Leafs but he doesn't

want to ruin their chance to get the 1st pick. He then signs

with the Habs. We save cap space to add another player

at the trade deadline. And we get to see how Chipchura

reacts to playing as a 3rd line C for a couple of months.

Kinda works for all parties, doesn't it?

Although signing Sundin later in the season is an opportunity you can't really pass on, especially since you don't want him to see with a conference rival, it's never really worked in the past for other teams. What if our top three lines are all going well, do you really want to risk messing up the entire team chemistry, and go into the playoffs with that's still struggling to find optimal lines and match-ups?

ps. I still think Toronto could challenge for a playoff spot, at least of they remain healthy. They could have a relatively strong defensive, and three decent scoring lines. For example:

Blake-Steen-Tlutsy

Bell-Grabovsky-Antropov

Kulemin-Stajan-Ponikarovsky

They may not be impressive on paper, but with some solid coaching from Wilson and good chemistry, that lineup could compete. After all, the Wings were again a top team 2 years ago with rejetcs like Cleary and Samuelsson on their second line...

[saskhab]

I'd be shocked if Ron Wilson plays Bell anymore than as a spare part. He had no time for his lazy play in San Jose.

There are too many question marks in that group to form 3 scoring lines. Best is to narrow it to two scoring lines, and either have vets like Poni and Blake play checking roles, or put young guys like Tlusty in the AHL in a scoring role.

Grabovski's speed would be wasted with Antropov and Bell.

Toronto will be quick and inexperienced, but will work hard. They won't be pushovers. They won't make the playoffs, though. They'd need Toskala to win the Vezina for that to happen.

[ShortHanded]

I think its between retirement or playing for the Habs

for Sundin.

If he's thought about playing for the Habs then 3 dates

come into play. October 11th and November 8th of this

year and April 4th of next year. Those are the 3 dates in

which the Habs play in Toronto.

If Sundin were to decide to play for the Habs in November

or December He avoids playing in Toronto till the end of

the season. It should be obvious by mid to late November

that the Leafs have a serious shot at getting Tavares. So,

Sundin says his heart is still with the Leafs but he doesn't

want to ruin their chance to get the 1st pick. He then signs

with the Habs. We save cap space to add another player

at the trade deadline. And we get to see how Chipchura

reacts to playing as a 3rd line C for a couple of months.

Kinda works for all parties, doesn't it?

Such a positive thinker ecurb. I applaud you. I just don't have the same optimism....

[CerebusClone]

I'd be shocked if Ron Wilson plays Bell anymore than as a spare part. He had no time for his lazy play in San Jose.

There are too many question marks in that group to form 3 scoring lines. Best is to narrow it to two scoring lines, and either have vets like Poni and Blake play checking roles, or put young guys like Tlusty in the AHL in a scoring role.

Grabovski's speed would be wasted with Antropov and Bell.

Toronto will be quick and inexperienced, but will work hard. They won't be pushovers. They won't make the playoffs, though. They'd need Toskala to win the Vezina for that to happen.

I think Mark Bell may have learned his lesson picking up garbage all summer long surrounded with real criminals, and he seems to have a different attitude going into the next training camp. He seems to have stopped drinking, and has been working out harder. If he indeed does go the Leafs camp a different person, I hope Wilson will give him every chance he deserves, and not penalize him for his San Jose days.

I agree they probably won't make the playoffs, but I do believe they make a push for it until the end. They key will be to see whether young veterans such as Steen and Stajan will emerge as leaders now that they are out of Mats Sundin's shadow, and also whether skilled newcomers such as Kulemin and Grabovski will seize the chance they will be given.

There are a lot of unknowns in Toronto, but I think they have what it takes to surprise many. However, I'm not sure whether this is what managements wants this season (perhaps they want their shot at selecting Tavares), and if it ain't, they may get involved somehow...

[Ecurb]

Although signing Sundin later in the season is an opportunity you can't really pass on, especially since you don't want him to see with a conference rival, it's never really worked in the past for other teams. What if our top three lines are all going well, do you really want to risk messing up the entire team chemistry, and go into the playoffs with that's still struggling to find optimal lines and match-ups?

ps. I still think Toronto could challenge for a playoff spot, at least of they remain healthy. They could have a relatively strong defensive, and three decent scoring lines. For example:

Blake-Steen-Tlutsy

Bell-Grabovsky-Antropov

Kulemin-Stajan-Ponikarovsky

They may not be impressive on paper, but with some solid coaching from Wilson and good chemistry, that lineup could compete. After all, the Wings were again a top team 2 years ago with rejetcs like Cleary and Samuelsson on their second line...

I'm not worried about Sundin being added to the team later

in the season and there being a team chemistry problem. For

most of our players a bettter chance to win the cup would

prevail. And if Sundin signs in late November or December

we have plenty of time to figure out the lines/matchups.

I'm afraid Toronto doesn't have a hope in hell to challenge

for a playoff spot. I see the Habs,Bruins,Pens,Devils,Flyers

and Caps as near sure bets to make the playoffs. Then the

Sens,Sabres,Rangers,Canes and possibly Tampa fighting

it out for the last 2 spots.

Those Toronto lines remind me of a line comedian Don

Rickles made famous "Yeesh, is that your wife?". So,

Yeesh is that the Leafs line?

[Ecurb]

Such a positive thinker ecurb. I applaud you. I just don't have the same optimism....

You caught onto me pretty quick, didn't you?

Hey, if Gainey spent 2 hours talking to Sundin, you

can be pretty sure some options were presented to

him should he decide to join the Habs at a future

date. :hlogo:

Either that or there were exchanging Swedish Meatball

recipes.

[Wamsley01]

I think Mark Bell may have learned his lesson picking up garbage all summer long surrounded with real criminals, and he seems to have a different attitude going into the next training camp. He seems to have stopped drinking, and has been working out harder. If he indeed does go the Leafs camp a different person, I hope Wilson will give him every chance he deserves, and not penalize him for his San Jose days.

I agree they probably won't make the playoffs, but I do believe they make a push for it until the end. They key will be to see whether young veterans such as Steen and Stajan will emerge as leaders now that they are out of Mats Sundin's shadow, and also whether skilled newcomers such as Kulemin and Grabovski will seize the chance they will be given.

There are a lot of unknowns in Toronto, but I think they have what it takes to surprise many. However, I'm not sure whether this is what managements wants this season (perhaps they want their shot at selecting Tavares), and if it ain't, they may get involved somehow...

Toronto always does things bass ackward

If you want a shot at Tavares you DO NOT hire a guy like Ron Wilson as your coach.

The move was to let Mats walk, trade Toskala for a package (seeing as if they get good again he will be mid 30s).

Reflex goalies have historically not aged well. Then hire an inexperienced coach like the Pens did with Olczyk.

Then sit back and watch the freefall as the inexperienced coach takes 3-4 months to figure out what the hell is going on.

Instead they hire a top notch coach, deal picks for guys like Mayers, Grabovski, in Free Agency they sign Hagman

and Finger and look to put a team on the ice who will most likely work hard and trap the shit out of you.

With the combination of Wilson and Toskala they will not be much different this season. A middle of the pack team

who is going to be a lot better than most people expect because they steal a bunch of games.

Still no discernable plan in sight.

If this is a full rebuild why are they dealing so many draft picks?

[CerebusClone]

I'm not worried about Sundin being added to the team later

in the season and there being a team chemistry problem. For

most of our players a bettter chance to win the cup would

prevail. And if Sundin signs in late November or December

we have plenty of time to figure out the lines/matchups.

I'm not really afraid of anyone being unhappy with Sundin's arrival, but really about the team chemistry as a whole. By January or February, the team should hopefully play as a whole, buying into a solid system, everyone heading for a common goal, and players knowing each other well on the ice. If you bring in an impact player at that point, the entire team is affected, the system changes (because you pretty much have to play Sundin in every key situation), the lines get shuffled, and I really doubt that a few months midway in the season (without a training camp) are enough to re-solidify the whole.

As for having plenty of time, it took Carbonneau about a year and half too get just one line right, I don't see how he could deal with such a task...

[Chris]

Aside from the cheap shot at GC, i don't think Sundin coming in late would have much of a negative impact. In GC's defense, line tweeking wasn't a priority as i saw it. Getting the team to show up and play hard every night was the big problem he had the first year in a half. Once that happened the lines, defensive zone and other things got better.

[CerebusClone]

Those Toronto lines remind me of a line comedian Don

Rickles made famous "Yeesh, is that your wife?". So,

Yeesh is that the Leafs line?

Those were just examples, but still, the 3rd line looks like it could become very effective. Kulemin is a great prospect who could surprise many this season, Stajan I believe will emerge as a leader for the Leafs, and Ponikarovski is very big and a decent overall player.

I could also see the duo of Blake and Steen picking up the offense now that everything will not evolve around Sundin. You stick a great skilled youngster like Tlutsy with them, and you may have yourself a decent line.

The second line I put together is the biggest question mark, Grabovksi has everything to prove, Mark Bell is coming back from a pretty dark place while Antropov needs to prove he can contribute without Mats Sundin holding his hand.

After all, that lineup isn't really worse than what we've had until recently, and we always at least came somewhat close to making the playoffs... and our defense looked nothing like the Leafs' (our number 1 defenseman was a power play specialist who couldn't even reach 40 points in a season).

[Wamsley01]

I'm not really afraid of anyone being unhappy with Sundin's arrival, but really about the team chemistry as a whole. By January or February, the team should hopefully play as a whole, buying into a solid system, everyone heading for a common goal, and players knowing each other well on the ice. If you bring in an impact player at that point, the entire team is affected, the system changes (because you pretty much have to play Sundin in every key situation), the lines get shuffled, and I really doubt that a few months midway in the season (without a training camp) are enough to re-solidify the whole.

As for having plenty of time, it took Carbonneau about a year and half too get just one line right, I don't see how he could deal with such a task...

It is a risk, but so is sitting aside and watching him sign with somebody else.

Sundin could sign with the Rangers if the Habs passed, they play him in the first round

and Sundin kills them like he has for 15 years and eliminates them. The Rangers lose to the Pens

and once again history shows you cannot fly a guy into an established roster and win a Cup, but

he will have derailed the Habs season.

I think some more detailed research needs to be done on how mid to late season acquisitions effect long playoff

runs and not just the ones that lead to championships.

[CerebusClone]

Aside from the cheap shot at GC, i don't think Sundin coming in late would have much of a negative impact. In GC's defense, line tweeking wasn't a priority as i saw it. Getting the team to show up and play hard every night was the big problem he had the first year in a half. Once that happened the lines, defensive zone and other things got better.

It wasn't really a cheap shot... it did take him a year and a half to put together one good, consistent line, and he still hasn't found a way to get two rolling at the same time. Having another skilled winger like Tanguay shuold greatly help this time around.

I agree he got everyone to work hard ona consistent basis, and with our underated skill level, that was enough for the regular season. However I mentionned before the playoffs that hard work and improvising in the offensive (at least on 5-on-5) wasn't going to be enough, and it obviously wasn't. It takes more than just skill and hard work to make it far, we need to play smarter.

[saskhab]

Hopefully Sundin doesn't delay too long. I realize no one of significance has been added to a team without playing before, but if he came in November or December that should be plenty of time for both the team and player to get on the same page and move forward together.

The theory that he might come back after Remembrance Day is interesting. By Nov. 11, we will have played Toronto twice in Toronto already, with only one more game there the remainder of the year... the final game of the season. It's an interesting possibility that he wants to avoid the constant circus that players coming back to Toronto recieve.

[Wamsley01]

Those were just examples, but still, the 3rd line looks like it could become very effective. Kulemin is a great prospect who could surprise many this season, Stajan I believe will emerge as a leader for the Leafs, and Ponikarovski is very big and a decent overall player.

I could also see the duo of Blake and Steen picking up the offense now that everything will not evolve around Sundin. You stick a great skilled youngster like Tlutsy with them, and you may have yourself a decent line.

The second line I put together is the biggest question mark, Grabovksi has everything to prove, Mark Bell is coming back from a pretty dark place while Antropov needs to prove he can contribute without Mats Sundin holding his hand.

After all, that lineup isn't really worse than what we've had until recently, and we always at least came somewhat close to making the playoffs... and our defense looked nothing like the Leafs' (our number 1 defenseman was a power play specialist who couldn't even reach 40 points in a season).

That is a very optimistic assesment of the Leafs.

Tlusty was lost for 95% of the season last year. Steen wilted when he was keyed on by other teams, Ponikoravsky and Antropov

have accomplished absolutley nothing without Sundin, Bell has underachieved his whole career and Kulemin could take 30-40 games to

adjust to North America.

I will be shocked if they finish with less than 80 points, but it will not be pretty getting there

[Chris]

Yes, Tanguay will definitely help. The amount of young talent certainly helps too. SK was a big help to the team, he and Gorges were also 2 guys who stood up for team mates alot.

Sundin would definitely help in the playoffs for toughness. I wouldn't overlook the Laraque signing, that should turn the attitude around, as i mention alot, i'm tired of seeing the goalies getting abused all the time.

They'll be tougher and more confident next year, more talented as well. It's a matter of not reading how good you are suppose to be and showing up consitently.

[Quebecois]

Toronto always does things bass ackward

If this is a full rebuild why are they dealing so many draft picks?

To quote Cliff Fletcher early 1990s...

Draft Schmaft