Gainey: Genius?

[Wamsley01]

This I completely agree with, and is what I love about the current Habs management. It seems to me we are building a strong franchise for years to come, and creating a Habs culture the way the Red Wings have (and we see the results). This begins from the year young prospects are deafted with the rookie training camp where players get to bond, appreciate the quality of this organization, and take pride in wearing the Habs jersey.

I don't really blame Gainey for Beauchemin and Ribeiro. Beauchemin wasn't exactly a great player in the AHL, and never forced the coaching staff to make room for him. Although I would have prefered giving a chance to Beauchemin and/or Hainsey instead of offering a marginal 6th/7th defenseman a guaranteed spot, no one really could foresee that Beauchemin would become a top 4 defenseman on a Stanley Cup champion team.

As for Mike Ribeiro, he was given every possible chance to establish himself as a quality NHLer in Montreal, but never delivered (in fact, I still wouldn't want him on my team after what I've seen of the new Ribeiro in the last playoffs... same old player, he just had longer hot streaks). Also, I don't think he fit in that new Habs culture we're trying to implement. Besides, we got nothing gor his services because he was worth virtually nothing... getting a good return would have been luck.

Anyway, again, I'm not trying to bash Bob Gainey, but not having a terrible track record doesn't make him a great GM. His true test is still to come, and pretty much starts this summer. Can Bob Gainey take the abs to the next level... maybe... but he hasn't convinced me yet.

Hasn't he already taken them to the next level? and now we are waiting him to take them up one more?

Level 1 - Rejean Houle era depression

Level 2 - Andre Savard hope begins era

Level 3 - Andre Savard Lean on Theodore we are just good enough to make the playoffs and pray for Theo to steal a round era

Level 4 - Bob Gainey win the Division and conference era

Level 5 - Bob Gainey Stanley Cup contender era

Level 6 - Bob Gainey Stanley Cup Champion

As far as I am concerned the Habs have climbed up numerous levels since Rejean Houle dismantled a Stanley Cup team.

We are at level 5, two steps above when Gainey took over, I am waiting for Step 6 now.

IMO

And like the Cucumber said, I don't think the Habs would be where they are right now with Andre Savard still running the ship.

He probably would have dove in to the Free Agent insanity and spent poorly like he did with Audette, Czerkawski etc.

Part of being a GM is instilling a winning culture, weeding out the crap and raising internal expectations. Then you deal with

personnel and how they are treated. Gainey was the best guy for this job because he knew the market, he was groomed in the

market, he knew the media demands, he knew the land mines,he understood what the CH meant and how this organization

needed to be saved from the destruction of previous administrations.

I don't care about losing Beauchemin, Hainsey, Ribeiro. I don't care if he never scores on the UFA market. All I know is I grew up

with a certain expectation of the Canadiens, I grew up knowing they did things the smart way and the Habs were one of the

best franchises in pro sports. That was destroyed by a triumvirate of idiots and Gainey has brought back the pride and excitement

and expectations of my youth. A whole generation of Canadiens fans have grown up with their high point being a team with Zednik,

Theodore, Bulis, Gilmour and Kilger. They are just now getting to enjoy what it feels like to contend

The Canadiens are relevant again and it is because of Bob Gainey. So I am not going to nitpick over his poor decisions or his fortune

when Briere turned him down. I will focus on one of the best young teams in the league with Gainey trying to figure out a way to bring

Mats Sundin on board for a run in their centennial year.

Gainey said it was a 5 year plan when he was hired and he is right on track. Is he a genius? Nope, but I know of nobody more qualified

to run this franchise than him.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Habsfan]

This I completely disagree with... otherwise Mariusz Czerkawski and Sergei Berezin would still be in the NHL today. Scoring 35 and 37 goals respectively didn't make them quality offensive players in the NHL.

All these players only had one good year. Kovalev had multiple 70+ season's at a time when there were no 100 point players in the league. He had proven his worth.

You say he has had 2 bad seasons in Montreal, I say he's had one. You say he's been worthless in the playoffs, I say he's been good. To completely deny that Kovalev has his worth is unrealistic!

[CoRvInA]

You say he has had 2 bad seasons in Montreal, I say he's had one. You say he's been worthless in the playoffs, I say he's been good. To completely deny that Kovalev has his worth is unrealistic!

hear hear!!!

[BTH]

Yeah, I think the most important single move Gainey has made was firing Julien and getting behind the bench himself.

He immediately put Higgins, who had been languishing in a 4th-line/checking role, with Koivu on the first line. Higs responded with 20 goals in 40 games. He also put Komisarek, who had been relegated to 6th defenceman status and looking terrible, with Markov. Hey presto, the Komisarek we now know and love was on his way to emerging.

Imagine how our rebuild would look if that had never happened. Higgins might still be regarded as little more than a Steve Begin type, and Komi might be elsewhere.

He also got rid of Theodore and soon thereafter, Ribeiro, in order to give ice time to Plekanec.

What coaching the team did, I believe, is give Gainey a very detailed read on which players were leaders, which had potential, and which weren't championshipstuff. And I think much of his subsequent patience and decision-making has been informed by the lessons he learned there.

As for BTH's assertion that it took no skill to let the young players develop - au contraire. Very few if ANY GMs would have had the combination of credibility and patience to be able to wait it out the way Gainey did, in a high-pressure market like Montreal. Most would have traded Higgins by now for a "quick fix" and gotten caught up in the UFA frenzy, handcuffing the organization for years to come with stupid contracts. Beyond that, he has assembled a quality organization, creating an institutional culture (from scratch) that does things the right way. That's not easy.

I agree that he dodged a bullet on Briere. But Bonk was a very good player in his second season with us (in year one, he was ruined by a groin problem). I'm tired of people saying that trade was no good because Bonk had a serious injury in one season. As for "building around" Kovalev, sheesh - first Bob gets attacked for not signing UFAs, then he gets attacked for signing a guy who has been a PPG player for us in two out of three seasons. It's all context. At the time, we had nobody - Kovy was an enormous talent upgrade. Dandeault and Bouillon were also effective signings given the comparative weakness of the team at the time.

Does he make mistakes? Sure. Beauchemin is a glaring one. He should have gotten more back for Ribeiro (although given Ribs's rep at the time, I don't think we could have gotten too much more). Offering huge dough to Briere was another. Not trading Souray at deadline, maaaybe. Not keeping Huet, maaaaybe. I'd include the big offer to Souray too, although you have to wonder whether Gainey pretty much knew that wouldn't fly. That's not exactly a track record of massive blunders.

Hey, stop picking on me - I haven't said anything in this thread!

[Wamsley01]

Hey, stop picking on me - I haven't said anything in this thread!

I noticed that too. I assume he meant Cerebus

[CerebusClone]

You say he has had 2 bad seasons in Montreal, I say he's had one. You say he's been worthless in the playoffs, I say he's been good. To completely deny that Kovalev has his worth is unrealistic!

Kovalev has always been rejected several times, and doesn't exactly carry the best reputation. Pittsburg just got rid of him for next to nothing despite his point production with the Penguins, and the Rangers pratically gave him to the Habs for Balej.

Also, I didn't completely deny Kovalev's worth, I said althought he can be very good at times, he's also quite unreliable since you never know when he'll just disappear or let his ego take over. He was inconsistant his first season as a Habs (I didn't say bad), awful the second, quite excellent this season, but what is he going to do in 08-09? What if we sign Sundin, and he gets all the attention and more powerplay time; will Kovalev do what's best for the Habs or start complaining, stop giving his best just to satisfy his ego, and criticize the entire organization back in Russia?

All I'm saying is that Kovalev is no building block for a solid core. However, he can be a very good asset in the right context.

[zeous]

Don't know if Gainey is a genius or not, but if you are old enough to have watched the teams that he played on you will understand that you want a leader like him. He and Carbo for that matter. Both of them realized that it was not themselves individually that would win the cup, but team effort. Both of them played smart defensive hockey. Keying on the little things that make huge differences. Face-offs, blocking shots, getting back into the defensive zone. Those are men that you want leading a team.

[CoRvInA]

Don't know if Gainey is a genius or not, but if you are old enough to have watched the teams that he played on you will understand that you want a leader like him. He and Carbo for that matter. Both of them realized that it was not themselves individually that would win the cup, but team effort. Both of them played smart defensive hockey. Keying on the little things that make huge differences. Face-offs, blocking shots, getting back into the defensive zone. Those are men that you want leading a team.

well said Zeous!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Hey, stop picking on me - I haven't said anything in this thread!

Whoops! Sorry about that

[JoeLassister]

Kovalev has always been rejected several times, and doesn't exactly carry the best reputation. Pittsburg just got rid of him for next to nothing despite his point production with the Penguins, and the Rangers pratically gave him to the Habs for Balej.

Also, I didn't completely deny Kovalev's worth, I said althought he can be very good at times, he's also quite unreliable since you never know when he'll just disappear or let his ego take over. He was inconsistant his first season as a Habs (I didn't say bad), awful the second, quite excellent this season, but what is he going to do in 08-09? What if we sign Sundin, and he gets all the attention and more powerplay time; will Kovalev do what's best for the Habs or start complaining, stop giving his best just to satisfy his ego, and criticize the entire organization back in Russia?

All I'm saying is that Kovalev is no building block for a solid core. However, he can be a very good asset in the right context.

Anyway, who said Kovy was the core ?? Markov, Price, Komi, Higgins and Andrei are the core.

[saskhab]

Kovalev has always been rejected several times, and doesn't exactly carry the best reputation. Pittsburg just got rid of him for next to nothing despite his point production with the Penguins, and the Rangers pratically gave him to the Habs for Balej.

Pittsburgh also got rid of Jagr for next to nothing. Those two trades showed nothing of Kovalev's or Jagr's value, it showed that Pittsburgh was bankrupt and needed to take on a bunch of cheap contracts until they got their finances in order. They barely had a $20m payroll the year after they traded Kovalev.

Kovalev then had a bad year on a bad Rangers team. He still cost the Habs a supposedly NHL ready prospect and a 2nd round pick. The Rangers could've taken Plekanec for Kovalev, but liked Balej better (he was arguably the top player in the AHL that year). They had a choice of Hossa, Balej, or Plekanec as the prospect. So, if the Rangers had picked Plekanec instead of Balej, would they have been seen as "giving" Kovalev away right now? No, the Rangers would've had a great young centre for Jagr the past couple years, and we'd probably still have Ribeiro out of necessity.

[rafikz]

Bob Gainey

Bob Genius

Genius is latin for Gainey

[matsnaslundsuperfan]

.

Edited July 12, 2008 by matsnaslundsuperfan

[habs rule]

And he has to convince you? NOT! :blink: It's a good thing he doesn't have to convince the negative critics on this board... the safe from any stress or responsibility armchair GMs here.

I don't believe Bob Gainey's a genius at what he does... he's just a guy who knows what he has to work with and is doing the best he can. He makes mistakes like the rest of us do, so, big deal.

I put my trust in him for that aspect of the growth & success of our Canadiens.

What makes him a "genius" is the fact that other guys are complete forking idiots. ipso facto by default he is a genius, and let us all bow our heads and that the great hockey gods (sammy and the boys) that he is running this team. :hlogo:

Edited July 10, 2008 by habs rule

[CerebusClone]

What makes him a "genius" is the fact that other guys are complete forking idiots. ipso facto by default he is a genius, and let us all bow our heads and that the great hockey gods (sammy and the boys) that he is running this team. :hlogo:

This summer, for the first time, I feel Bob Gainey is doing an excellent job. I can't really find anything wrong with his actions so far (although Tanguay would not have been my first choice). Tanguay adds top talent to our mix, Laraque brings something we didn't have, our RFAa are getting fair and relatively reasonable contracts, Cedrick Desjardins adds depth to a nearly depleted prospect base at that position while Marc Denis will hopefully take Desjardins under his wing, and will be an asset if something were to happen to either Price or Halak during trainign camp. Also, I don't think we should have resigned Mark Streit, and this time, I don't feel like Gainey failed to sign him but actually made that decision.

However for the previous years - although I do like where we are (and very close to how I saw it 3-4 years ago) - I have my doubts on how Gainey got there, and therefore I have doubts whether he'll have the vision and management skills to take us further. I think some of his failures have really helped us (ex. the contracts offered to Souray and Briere last summer) where we eventually signed better players (HamrliK) or gave some of our youngsters the chance they deserved, to a point where we have a lot of quality depth at still a reasonable price (while in my opinion beign a better team today without Souray and Briere).

Anyways, I don't really want to get into this again. Bob Gainey hasn't convinced me, but for now the results are there, and I really do hope that he proves me wrong because I do like like Gainey himself and the image he gives as a general manager (notoriety, patience, calm, confidence, ...).

[Wamsley01]

This summer, for the first time, I feel Bob Gainey is doing an excellent job. I can't really find anything wrong with his actions so far (although Tanguay would not have been my first choice). Tanguay adds top talent to our mix, Laraque brings something we didn't have, our RFAa are getting fair and relatively reasonable contracts, Cedrick Desjardins adds depth to a nearly depleted prospect base at that position while Marc Denis will hopefully take Desjardins under his wing, and will be an asset if something were to happen to either Price or Halak during trainign camp. Also, I don't think we should have resigned Mark Streit, and this time, I don't feel like Gainey failed to sign him but actually made that decision.

However for the previous years - although I do like where we are (and very close to how I saw it 3-4 years ago) - I have my doubts on how Gainey got there, and therefore I have doubts whether he'll have the vision and management skills to take us further. I think some of his failures have really helped us (ex. the contracts offered to Souray and Briere last summer) where we eventually signed better players (HamrliK) or gave some of our youngsters the chance they deserved, to a point where we have a lot of quality depth at still a reasonable price (while in my opinion beign a better team today without Souray and Briere).

Anyways, I don't really want to get into this again. Bob Gainey hasn't convinced me, but for now the results are there, and I really do hope that he proves me wrong because I do like like Gainey himself and the image he gives as a general manager (notoriety, patience, calm, confidence, ...).

But even geniuses get lucky.

All we can judge him on are the moves he has made and the results from those moves. The man won 5 Stanley Cups

as a player and was the GM of another one.

He came into a situation where a slight rebuild had begun and made all the proper moves to get the Habs to first place

in the Eastern Conference. Just because Ribs is putting up big points in Dallas does not mean it was a bad move.

The Habs have elite young talent, a strong veteran core and enough cap flexibility that they have 85% of the Eastern

Conference title winners returning with money left over to go after a Mats Sundin.

In the new cap age, what more can you ask for? Their window has just opened and in the first off season of that window

you feel he has done a flawless job. I don't understand why you would be cynical about his future moves.

He has proved he understands the new system and has not jumped in and made a bunch of ridiculous signings like the other

idiots out there. He is not a genius, but I would take him over any GM not named Ken Holland right now.

[CerebusClone]

But even geniuses get lucky.

All we can judge him on are the moves he has made and the results from those moves. The man won 5 Stanley Cups

as a player and was the GM of another one.

He came into a situation where a slight rebuild had begun and made all the proper moves to get the Habs to first place

in the Eastern Conference. Just because Ribs is putting up big points in Dallas does not mean it was a bad move.

The Habs have elite young talent, a strong veteran core and enough cap flexibility that they have 85% of the Eastern

Conference title winners returning with money left over to go after a Mats Sundin.

In the new cap age, what more can you ask for? Their window has just opened and in the first off season of that window

you feel he has done a flawless job. I don't understand why you would be cynical about his future moves.

He has proved he understands the new system and has not jumped in and made a bunch of ridiculous signings like the other

idiots out there. He is not a genius, but I would take him over any GM not named Ken Holland right now.

Actually, he did try to to make a few ridiculous signings, but failed at it... again I do like where we are, I'm just not sure how much of it was planned by Bob Gainey (i.e I think if Gainey had his way, Andrei Kostsitsyn would probably have left for Russia this summer after wasting yet another season in the minors).

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm I'm right... but obviously I'm not hinting that we should get rid og Gainey, that would be ridiculous.

By the way, I don't blame Gainey ine second for the Ribeiro trade. I don't think he's a quality player, and from what we can hear here and there, he didn't really fit within the team concept the Habs management is trying to imlpement. Besides, Ribeiro got all the chances in the world in Montreal, especially with Koivu being injured every once in a while, and did not deliver. In this case, I think the trade was ok... even though it looks awful on paper.

It goes both ways

[Habsfan]

He has proved he understands the new system and has not jumped in and made a bunch of ridiculous signings like the other

idiots out there. He is not a genius, but I would take him over any GM not named Ken Holland right now.

Agreed! I think it's safe to say that Gainey could be considered one of the top 3 GM's in the league right now.

[huzer]

Genius is bandied about rather liberally it seems. I would call him calculated and competent (and lucky in some of the FA deals that didn't work). However, simply being calculated and competent in the current NHL environment seems to be rather rare.

Or to sum up, as CerebusClone put it: "There's a difference between being a genuis and simply not being an idiot. "

[BTH]

It's hard to say whether he's a genius or not based on his GMing skills. You could argue that he is a GMing genius - I'm not sure I would agree but he's definitely an amazing general manager and possibly the best one out there.

[habs rule]

Some of you guys are taking this topic pretty seriously, I kind of thought that it was tongue in cheek. I think the guy is great and we will a stanley cup. To me that is genius. Cause I want to win a cup. Some of you I think should maybe relax a little Have a cool one, He is a hockey gm not the next nobel prize winner. Steven Hawking is a genius but I don't want him as gm of the habs. I think this topic was meant to be fun, and not real assessment of whether bob is a genius. But hey i could be wrong. NAHHHH

[Wamsley01]

Some of you guys are taking this topic pretty seriously, I kind of thought that it was tongue in cheek. I think the guy is great and we will a stanley cup. To me that is genius. Cause I want to win a cup. Some of you I think should maybe relax a little Have a cool one, He is a hockey gm not the next nobel prize winner. Steven Hawking is a genius but I don't want him as gm of the habs. I think this topic was meant to be fun, and not real assessment of whether bob is a genius. But hey i could be wrong. NAHHHH

Bob is progressive in his approach. He does not follow trends set up by other GMs and does not listen to fans and make

moves for public consumption.

There are plenty of GMs out there who have won Cups but put all their eggs in one basket for that one shot miracle and got lucky.

Does not make those guys smart, or a genius. Jay Feaster? Jim Rutherford? There teams have been garbage since they won.

Gainey is one of the top GMs in the league. Does it require you to be a genius to be the best GM in the league. No.

The closest thing to a genius in the sport was Sam Pollock. I think you have to match his performance before you

can be hailed a genius today.

[smon]

I've been extremely impressed with he has done this summer, more so than any other summer he's been GM.

[habs rule]

Bob is progressive in his approach. He does not follow trends set up by other GMs and does not listen to fans and make

moves for public consumption.

There are plenty of GMs out there who have won Cups but put all their eggs in one basket for that one shot miracle and got lucky.

Does not make those guys smart, or a genius. Jay Feaster? Jim Rutherford? There teams have been garbage since they won.

Gainey is one of the top GMs in the league. Does it require you to be a genius to be the best GM in the league. No.

The closest thing to a genius in the sport was Sam Pollock. I think you have to match his performance before you

can be hailed a genius today.

yes I agree with your comments which is not a surprise since I quite often agree with you. But lets be honest Sammy was gm in a completely different era. He had no salary cap and no free agency to speak of. It was a completely different world but I would say he was the Tiger Woods of his time as GM. Ok maybe Jack. Anyway Bob has done an exceptional job and the remarks I hear oh well if he had signed this guy or that guy it would have been a mistake. There is no way to know that since it did not happen. Who knows what would have happened if we had signed Briere? I sure as hell don't. It would have been for a lot of money (more than I think we should spend ) but could it have been the cup? would it have been worth it then? Judge the man on what he actually did not on might have beens and circumstances beyond his control. Genius? Who cares He is a great GM. and we will win the cup. :hlogo:

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Next summer will be Gainey's big test. We have tons and tons of money coming off the books.

Koivu

Kovalev

Bouillon

Dandenault

Begin

Kostopolous

Tanguay

Komisarek

Some big salaries there.

Who does he let walk (yes, some are obvious) and who does he re-sign. Will Koivu be back at a lesser salary for a short term contract or a long term contract? What about Kovalev? How much will Komisarek cost us?

Next summer will be an interesting one.