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Montreal Canadiens vs Detroit Red Wings

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No comment necessary...

Just imagine, the fool that thinks Pacioretty,

is better than Latendresse. :blink:

Right, No comment necessary :lol:

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Every once in a while a player like Pacioretty

comes along.

And, you want him to play in the AHL?

I don't get it, and don't tell me he needs seasoning,

he's already better than our top 6 wings.

How do you know, he's never played a single NHL yet... training camps and pre-season games are built for yougsters to make a name for themselves. The veterans don't give a full effort, you never see a full NHL roster until maybe the very last pre-season game, coaches try new strategies and line combinations, the game is significantly more open, and coaches will live with a lot more rookie mistakes than they will when the season really starts.

I absolutely love Max Pacioretty, in fact I was following him closely several months before he was even drafted by the Montreal Canadiens because I thought he was a special kid, however I don't want to see him skip more steps in his development. We're not the Chicago Blawkhawks of last year that is desperate enough to live-or-die with our kids, we cannot garantee Pacioretty a regular spot with 15+ minutes a game, including when he goes through slumps, because we are now serious contenders for the Stanley Cup... and Pacioretty is at a point where he needs to play as much as possible, or we risk his development stagnating.

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Carbo will have to find room for the kid if he keeps playing like he does. Or Gainey will later. I am so impressed with his play. And I don't think you can compare his style to Lats or SK. He goes to the net at top speed, and nobody stops him cuz he's a big guy. His top speed is much better than Lat's as well. I don't think you can send Lats down. I think you play Lats with some talented players for a year and give him some minutes.

Someone mentioned trades earlier, and this kind of depth bodes well for a mid season trade. I know that Weber was weak last night, but he could be the Streit replacement we need later in the season. And we really don't have a 4 Dman. We have 3 Dmen and a bunch of 5s. So you could trade a winger for that 4th Dman and insert Maxpac into the lineup.

Even if a trade doesn't occur this year, the pressure should be off of Gainey this year a little, when he has to sign most of the talent on the roster. If players go crazy looking for more than their value, there is some room to let a few of them go and let the prospects in. Except Komi. Sign Komi today Bob WTF?

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Just imagine, the fool that thinks Pacioretty,

is better than Latendresse. :blink:

Right, No comment necessary :lol:

Pacioretty and a guy like Milan Lucic have a lot in common. While Latendresse is great, I was a little bummed at watching Lucic shine in last years play-offs and wished Latendresse could be more dominant like him. I believe Pacioretty could dominate more quickly then Latendresse, much like Lucic.

All three are young and play a similar game. Yes it's only the pre-season, but yes I do think Pacioretty is more gifted and more dominating. Even if Latendresse has more experience.

It doesn't mean I want to dump Gui, and I think Patch needs to go to Hamilton, but I wouldn't go calling someone a fool because they think Pacioretty is better.

I think Pacioretty is better then Lucic, and Lucic is better then Latendresse. Latendresse is missing something still. Is it speed, determination, a mean streak, balls? Not sure, but I hope he finds it this season.

Once again.....I LIKE LATENDRESSE, for the record. ^_^

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How do you know, he's never played a single NHL yet... training camps and pre-season games are built for yougsters to make a name for themselves. The veterans don't give a full effort, you never see a full NHL roster until maybe the very last pre-season game, coaches try new strategies and line combinations, the game is significantly more open, and coaches will live with a lot more rookie mistakes than they will when the season really starts.

I absolutely love Max Pacioretty, in fact I was following him closely several months before he was even drafted by the Montreal Canadiens because I thought he was a special kid, however I don't want to see him skip more steps in his development. We're not the Chicago Blawkhawks of last year that is desperate enough to live-or-die with our kids, we cannot garantee Pacioretty a regular spot with 15+ minutes a game, including when he goes through slumps, because we are now serious contenders for the Stanley Cup... and Pacioretty is at a point where he needs to play as much as possible, or we risk his development stagnating.

I guess its a feel with Pacioretty.

I've followed the Habs since the early 70's,

while that not mean anything. I think I know

when I see something special.

I guess its a judgement on my part , I

suppose it'll be discussed when the

debate comes down whether I'm an Idiot

or genius, I'm neither by the way.

I just feel Pacioretty is something special.

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Jeez, the bad faith on some of you...

:rolleyes:

Name ONE other 4th liner in the league who:

  1. - scored 16 goals (optionnal: 16 goals twice before they reached 21 yrs old)...
  2. - AND was 4th on his team in even-strength goals...
  3. - AND lead all forwards in hits on his team...
  4. - DESPITE playing no more than 12 mins per game.
A young winger who hits and can score goals without PP time can't be an effective 4th liner? Are you kidding me?

And yet despite his 8 goals during the regular season as mostly a forth liner, a guy like Milan Lucic was a huge asset for the Boston Bruins while we barely noticed Guillaume Latendresse. Lucic started the year on the 4th line, and forced his way up on a better as the season progressed, which is something we didn’t see from Latendresse; when he was given a shot on a better offensive line, it was either because of injuries or out of desperation from Carbonneau who was trying to find any kind of chemistry between slumping players.

I really like Latendresse, but we also have to admit he hasn’t progressed as hoped so far. Of course his 16 goals look pretty good on paper, but he scored almost all of them while playing on an offensive line with our top players, for example Koivu; most decently skilled player can score points when playing in such a situation, the names of Audette, Berezin, and Czerkawski come to mind, however Latendresse didn’t show he was effective and consistent enough to remain on those lines, mainly I think because of his tendency to become far too passive on the ice.

Honestly, despite his 16 goals, do you feel that Latendresse was a threat to score goals every time he jumped on the ice? Similarly, despite his number of hits, do you feel Latendresse has been a big physical presence for the Canadiens last season? I personally don’t care about the number of hits, that’s just a statistic on paper, but I care a lot about the intensity, timing, and effectiveness of those hits; it only takes one hit to neutralize an opponent, take the puck away from him, pass it to Kovalev, drive to the net, and pick up a rebound to score a goal… meanwhile another player can dish out 10 inoffensive, useless hits that neither bother nor scare anyone.

Again, I believe in Latendresse, and I want to see him given every chance to succeed. Ideally, I would actually like to see him playing alongside Plekanec and Kovalev because I think not only it would make that line more effective, but it would also give us a second top-notch offensive line with A.Kostsitsyn playing with Koivu and Tanguay.

Finally, as I mentioned, if Pacioretty forces his way up in 2-3 months, and Latendresse doesn’t show enough improvement, there is a very good chance he will lose his spot… it won’t be the forth liners, it won’t be Chris Higgins (unless he’s traded), so that only leaves either Sergei Kostsitsyn (good young offensive player with great vision who Carbonneau likes enough to plan using him at the blue line on the PP) or Latendresse…

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The Habs have a nice situation with Max, which they didn't have with Lats. After two stellar camps, it was illogical to send him back to juniors, but he couldn't go to the AHL. He was too good to send back to juniors, but during the season he didn't match his preseason performance. Had they been able to do so, he likely would have been demoted to the AHL during the season. With Max, we don't have that problem. If he does make the team, we can send him to Hamilton if he struggles. If he starts out on Hamilton, then he'll have a chance to adjust to the pro game with less pressure on him.

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Someone mentioned trades earlier, and this kind of depth bodes well for a mid season trade. I know that Weber was weak last night, but he could be the Streit replacement we need later in the season. And we really don't have a 4 Dman. We have 3 Dmen and a bunch of 5s. So you could trade a winger for that 4th Dman and insert Maxpac into the lineup.

There's no doubt that Weber needs some time in Hamilton, but his strong training camp is giving him a huge edge over his future competition at the defense position. Like Pacioretty, especially if our powerplay struggles for the first couple months, Weber could force his way up to Montreal with a strong performance in Hamilton. In that case, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see Bouillon - an upcoming UFA - be traded to make room for Weber. If that heppens, Gorges could move back to his natural side, and we would have a perfect situation with 3 lefties and 3 righties.

However, Weber is a longer shot than Pacioretty... actually O'Byrne could be a factor, if he plays solid hockey alongside Hamrlik, the Canadiens would have a solid top 4, thus making it easier to ease Weber into the lineup, playing mostly on the powerplay at the beginning, and slowly getting more an more ice time on even strength.

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I just feel Pacioretty is something special.

I feel he's special too, but at this point I think Sergei and Gui have earned their spots on the team... not necessarily through their play during pre-season, (although I have no complaints) but by their play in the past. I want to see Pacioretty play at this level, consistently, before I see him on the big club. And by the looks of it, it won't be long.

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What's great with all this is the these young guys, especially Pacioretty, Weber, Maxwell, and Valentenko give us a lot of maneuverability for next summer, where important decisions will have to be made. As I mentionned a few weeks ago, an almost worst-case scenario for next season (we resign Komisarek, maybe a one veteran like Tanguay, and all our RFAs) would still give us a lineup similar to this:

Latendresse-Plekanec-A.Kostsitsyn

Pacioretty-Maxwell-Tanguay (was Carbonneau planning ahead for next season ;) )

Higgins-Chipchura-S.Kostsitsyn

Stewart-Lapierre-Laraque

Markov-Komisarek

Hamrlik-O'Byrne

Gorges-(Valentenko/Weber)

Price

Halak

I figure such a roster would cost us a little less than 47.5 millions (without counting the reserve players), which would still give us some decent cap space to make a few adjustments (ex. if Maxwell doens't do so well in this season, or if we feel we need Kovalev back because Andrei Kostsitsyn didn't step up as hoped). Even today that lineup could probably be good enough to make the playoffs.

Thank you Trevor Timmins!

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I feel he's special too, but at this point I think Sergei and Gui have earned their spots on the team... not necessarily through their play during pre-season, (although I have no complaints) but by their play in the past. I want to see Pacioretty play at this level, consistently, before I see him on the big club. And by the looks of it, it won't be long.

Yup, we'll see Gui with his added speed, or so were told

make Pacioretty Hamilton depth.

OH jOY !!!

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I think as good as Pacioretty has been playing, I don't see him starting the season in Montreal. As others have mentioned, for a college player to adjust to the 82 game schedule is definitely a challenge, this is TWICE the amount of games, plus playoffs. Considering that in the AHL he will get more icetime AND get to adjust to a more frequent schedule, it's really a no brainer, especially when it can cost us a year of free agency down the line. You can't predict the future, but personally I'll rather take an extra year of Pacioretty later, when he's closer to his prime much rather than now, when we're pretty stacked on wings anyway. Common sense, really, and if he's that good in the AHL that he forces our hand at some point in the season, well, what a nice problem to have, right?

As far as Latendresse, he's done exactly what was asked of him, and when coaching staff asked him to make improvements (definsive play, positioning, skating) he's done his best to comply, and overall he's really not hurt the team with his play at all, quite the opposite. He hasn't been spectacular or dominant, and there is room for improvement still, but we can afford to be patient with a 21 year old power forward, when was the last time we had one of those? Honestly I feel his biggest sin is that he's not the flavor of the month anymore......

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Getting away from Maxpac and back to last night's game, I saw a lot of posts with people saying that Lang was useless. While his lack of speed was definitely noticeable, I thought he had a decent game. He wasn't a stand out, but he wasn't useless.The give and go along the boards with Kovy and Max was strong. While he didn't hit, he looked hard to knock off the puck, and he made a few excellent back checks as well. I didn't pay attention to his faceoffs, but the few I paid attention to, he won. Huge upgrade from Smoke in my opinion.

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Lats cant be demoted now, its illogical to suggest it. None of them can, especially S.K. :rolleyes:

I think MaxPac > Lats tho. Lats doesnt seem to give 100% 100% of the time and I think MacPac's 100% will be 110% of Lats and MaxPac will be doing it 100% of the time.

I cant wait to see how Lats does this year but I would also like to get to see what MaxPac can do too. In order for this to happen 1 of the vets must go, not 1 of the youngsters. I think Begin is a good as gone.

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I feel I may have started this. In no way do I assert that Tender and Sergei should lose their spots, I only pointed out that those would probably be the two guys who need to look over their shoulder at Max's progress. My personal opinion is that, regardless of how he does, Pacman goes to the AHL for at least some seasoning. He'll get more than a handful of NHL games this year and some valuable experience.

On the other hand, and I hesitate to say this, I think Latendresse is overrated. He played well enough to make the team a couple of years back when we had far less depth and, yes, he does bring a lot to the table. But not as much as some fans might think. I often wonder if half the reason he made the team wasn't because he spoke the proper language when there was a serious outcry at the lack of quality French representation. I'd like him to prove me wrong this year.

I know the stats, 16 goals etc, etc. I'm just not convinced he can keep that up.

There, I said it. Let the flogging begin.

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We're blessed with depth on wing, maybe we might

use some of that depth to upgrade another position

we're weaker at?

In my opinion the only upgrade we need is defence. We have 4 solid guys in Marky, Komi, Hammer, and Gorges.

Boo boo is alright. Obyrne needs to be smarter with the puck.

At the deadline if we are in it, we may be buyers and trade for a top 4 dman. Keep in mind, we have Weber, Valentanko, Subban, Belle, Mcdonaugh, Fisher and all of them are just a few years away.

Bob has a lot to play with.

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In my opinion the only upgrade we need is defence. We have 4 solid guys in Marky, Komi, Hammer, and Gorges.

Boo boo is alright. Obyrne needs to be smarter with the puck.

At the deadline if we are in it, we may be buyers and trade for a top 4 dman. Keep in mind, we have Weber, Valentanko, Subban, Belle, Mcdonaugh, Fisher and all of them are just a few years away.

Bob has a lot to play with.

Belle will never play in the NHL more than 5 games per season. I saw him play 2 times so far this offseason and this is not NHL caliber player.

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Every once in a while a player like Pacioretty

comes along.

And, you want him to play in the AHL?

I don't get it, and don't tell me he needs seasoning,

he's already better than our top 6 wings.

Are you guys blind or just ignorant, either that

or my eye-sight is worse than I thought it was? :lol:

And I never thought the same way about either

Latendresse or S.Kostitsyn as I do about Pacioretty.

The kids a keeper :hlogo:

Dude, you are not giving yourself a very good reputation as a knowledgeable fan on the boards. Are you seriously telling me that He's better than Kovy or Tanguay?? Be serious! :rolleyes:

Edited by Habsfan

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I think as good as Pacioretty has been playing, I don't see him starting the season in Montreal. As others have mentioned, for a college player to adjust to the 82 game schedule is definitely a challenge, this is TWICE the amount of games, plus playoffs. Considering that in the AHL he will get more icetime AND get to adjust to a more frequent schedule, it's really a no brainer, especially when it can cost us a year of free agency down the line. You can't predict the future, but personally I'll rather take an extra year of Pacioretty later, when he's closer to his prime much rather than now, when we're pretty stacked on wings anyway. Common sense, really, and if he's that good in the AHL that he forces our hand at some point in the season, well, what a nice problem to have, right?

As far as Latendresse, he's done exactly what was asked of him, and when coaching staff asked him to make improvements (definsive play, positioning, skating) he's done his best to comply, and overall he's really not hurt the team with his play at all, quite the opposite. He hasn't been spectacular or dominant, and there is room for improvement still, but we can afford to be patient with a 21 year old power forward, when was the last time we had one of those? Honestly I feel his biggest sin is that he's not the flavor of the month anymore......

WOW, I think this is the best post on this subject on the entire thread! I agree with everything that was just said!

BY the way, i'm listening to the Bruins-Habs game on the radio, and our boys are ALL over the place. It's just a matter of time before the hasb score! :clap:

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Dude, you are not giving yourself a very good reputation as a knowledgeable fan on the boards. Are you seriously telling me that He's better than Kovy or Tanguay?? Be serious! :rolleyes:

He meant he's good enough to be a top 6 winger on our team, not that he's better than ALL of our top 6 wingers.

And from what I've seen of Pacioretty he definitely is NHL ready and he is better than Latendresse was when he made the team. But we have no room for him and even if he made the team it would only mean either he or Latendresse winds up playing on the fourth line. There's no point. After a couple of months of being a 1st liner in the AHL, he'll probably be called up because of injuries and might make a case for himself staying around, the way Sergei did.

Actually, I think Sergei makes a better comparison for Max than Gui does because of the maturity they're at for their age. Gui plays like he's 21 - the other two play like they're 31.

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He meant he's good enough to be a top 6 winger on our team, not that he's better than ALL of our top 6 wingers.

Actually, if you read his quote, he DID say that he was better than our top 6 wings!

he's already better than our top 6 wings.

By the way, Gui just scored on the PP! 3-0 Habs!

Edited by Habsfan

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As far as Latendresse, [...] Honestly I feel his biggest sin is that he's not the flavor of the month anymore......

Agreed, but it's a deadly sin on this forum. :unsure:

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And yet despite his 8 goals during the regular season as mostly a forth liner, a guy like Milan Lucic was a huge asset for the Boston Bruins while we barely noticed Guillaume Latendresse. Lucic started the year on the 4th line, and forced his way up on a better as the season progressed, which is something we didn't see from Latendresse; when he was given a shot on a better offensive line, it was either because of injuries or out of desperation from Carbonneau who was trying to find any kind of chemistry between slumping players.

Lucic didnt "force his way up", he benefited from a rash of injuries (Bergeron, Schaefer, Kobasew, Thornton, Savard, etc.) to get more minutes. So the entire point you tried to make it completely moot.

I really like Latendresse, but we also have to admit he hasn't progressed as hoped so far. Of course his 16 goals look pretty good on paper, but he scored almost all of them while playing on an offensive line with our top players, for example Koivu; most decently skilled player can score points when playing in such a situation, the names of Audette, Berezin, and Czerkawski come to mind, however Latendresse didn't show he was effective and consistent enough to remain on those lines, mainly I think because of his tendency to become far too passive on the ice.

Lats progressed like Carbo & Gainey wanted him to progress: learn the defensive side of the game first (something he barely knew when he broke in the NHL) and be consistent.

As for "almost all his goals coming from when he was on the top line", it's nothing but an misinformed misconception. And I'll prove it:

17:11, Guillaume Latendresse 1 (Tom Kostopoulos, Tomas Plekanec)

8:21, Guillaume Latendresse 2 (Saku Koivu)

17:30, Guillaume Latendresse 3 (Roman Hamrlik, Kyle Chipchura)

10:18, Guillaume Latendresse 4 (power play) (Patrice Brisebois, Alexei Kovalev)

7:08, Guillaume Latendresse 5 (Saku Koivu, Christopher Higgins)

9:30, Guillaume Latendresse 6 (Kyle Chipchura, Roman Hamrlik)

10:41, Guillaume Latendresse 7 (power play) (Roman Hamrlik, Kyle Chipchura)

18:15, Guillaume Latendresse 8 (power play) (Saku Koivu, Christopher Higgins)

17:06, Guillaume Latendresse 9 (Mathieu Dandenault, Maxim Lapierre)

12:48, Guillaume Latendresse 10 (Saku Koivu, Siarhei Kastsitsyn)

1:42, Guillaume Latendresse 11 (Roman Hamrlik, Saku Koivu)

3:18, Guillaume Latendresse 12 (Maxim Lapierre, Mark Streit)

13:47, Guillaume Latendresse 13 (Sergei Kostitsyn, Mike Komisarek)

19:27, Guillaume Latendresse 14 (Tomas Plekanec, Mark Streit)

12:43, Guillaume Latendresse 15 (Sergei Kostitsyn, Josh Gorges)

17:48, Guillaume Latendresse 16 (Saku Koivu, Michael Ryder)

Koivu assisted on 6 of them. About a third. The rest is basically with anyone from Chipchura to Lapierre to Plex to SKost (kid line, remember?). As for "not being able to hang on the top lines", it has more to do with AKost clicking too well with Plex & Kovy (and Kovy wanting a stable line) and Higgins not being able to play with anyone but Koivu and those those not being able to produce with anyone on the RW but SKost that left Carbo with no other options than put Lats with Laps.

Honestly, despite his 16 goals, do you feel that Latendresse was a threat to score goals every time he jumped on the ice? Similarly, despite his number of hits, do you feel Latendresse has been a big physical presence for the Canadiens last season? I personally don't care about the number of hits, that's just a statistic on paper, but I care a lot about the intensity, timing, and effectiveness of those hits; it only takes one hit to neutralize an opponent, take the puck away from him, pass it to Kovalev, drive to the net, and pick up a rebound to score a goal… meanwhile another player can dish out 10 inoffensive, useless hits that neither bother nor scare anyone.

The stats are still there. I use them to support my argument which is that Lats was effective enough in his limited role of a 4th liner with his limited minutes. He dished hits almost every time he stepped on the ice while limiting defensive mistakes to the minimum, THAT is precisely what was asked of a 4th liner in Carbo's system.

You said Lats showed nothing of an effective 4th liner, and now that I showed you stats to back up my argument to the contrary, you try to shift the argument to Lats not being able to be more than a 4th liner and you brush aside facts (about Lucic, about Lats goals, etc) saying they mean nothing (hey, more hits of all the Habs forwards with the 4th less ice-time means nothing to you? Oh, right, the hit has to lead to a goal, my bad...) but at least I have something to back up my arguments. Where's your facts to back up your claims.

Again, I believe in Latendresse, and I want to see him given every chance to succeed. Ideally, I would actually like to see him playing alongside Plekanec and Kovalev because I think not only it would make that line more effective, but it would also give us a second top-notch offensive line with A.Kostsitsyn playing with Koivu and Tanguay.

Lats-Plex-Kovy has been tried. Doesnt work, not compatible styles. Plex is versatile enough to being able to play any style, but all three together just doesnt click; not as well as it does with Kosty in there. Kosty-Plex-Kovy have the speed, finesse and fancy to use the entire offensive zone and be able to get scoring chances from anywhere. Lats is a slot player. He does what almost none other of our forwards can (excet for Higgins some times): get the ugly rebound, 2nd and 3rd effort goal. He just needs linemates who can set up/finish plays to the net.

Finally, as I mentioned, if Pacioretty forces his way up in 2-3 months, and Latendresse doesn't show enough improvement, there is a very good chance he will lose his spot… it won't be the forth liners, it won't be Chris Higgins (unless he's traded), so that only leaves either Sergei Kostsitsyn (good young offensive player with great vision who Carbonneau likes enough to plan using him at the blue line on the PP) or Latendresse…

The philosophy of Carbo & Gainey is that players have a role to do and they'll play as long as they fill their role. If Lats fills his role, Pac's not gonna force him out of the lineup. Doesnt work that way. Lats' spot is his to lose, not Pac's to win. SKost didnt get his spot for being so good in the AHL, he got it because he could do the job that Ryder couldnt. But before SKost was called up, everyone on the RW got a chance to do the job.

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Actually, I think Sergei makes a better comparison for Max than Gui does because of the maturity they're at for their age. Gui plays like he's 21 - the other two play like they're 31.

Sergei doesn't seem mature beyond his years to me.

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Although i haven't seen enough of MaxPac to make a really informed opinion on how well he seems to be playing. Saw about a period and a half of the Detroit game.

If Carbo and BG decide he is best to stick with the big club, i do not think it will be Lats who he replaces. Most likely it would make Begin or Kostopolo expendable. With the addition of Larocque, it seem there is not much room for Kostopolo. And Max could make Begin expendable as the 4th line right-winger. Although i could see the lines most likely being:

A.Kostits/Pleks/Kovy

Tanguay/Koivu/Higgins

Pacioretty/Lang/S.Kostits

Latendresse/Lapierre/Larocque

extra forward Begin/Kostopolo/Chips/Dandy

Like i have mentioned before, as teams get better, the weak get weeded out. As much as Kostopolo seemed to bring to the table, it is easily replaced. The same goes for Begin.

I do like the looks of those forward lines. It's also possible that Chips replaces Laps as well. That seems to be a pretty solid unit. And MaxPac seems like he could replace much of the grit of a Begin or a Kostopolo with much more offensive upside.

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