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I'd have to think that other Canadian cities (Winnipeg, Hamilton) would be considered for an NHL team before TO got a second one.

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It's like a boxer who's taking the beating of his life lying on the floor the mouth

bloodied and asking for a rematch.

Not satisfied of being losers they wish they could duplicate the pain.

This is not sane.

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What kind of fans would be idiot enough to cheer for a 2nd team in a "small" city ?

New Yark City : 8 143 197

New York Metropolitan area : 21 903 623 (estimation from 2005)

Toronto : 2 500 000 +

Toronto Metropolitan area : 5 555 912

What are we talking about here ?

*sources are Wikipedia all the way

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What kind of fans would be idiot enough to cheer for a 2nd team in a "small" city ?

New Yark City : 8 143 197

New York Metropolitan area : 21 903 623 (estimation from 2005)

Toronto : 2 500 000 +

Toronto Metropolitan area : 5 555 912

What are we talking about here ?

*sources are Wikipedia all the way

The total population isn't as relevant as the number who are hockey fans. Toronto could easily support a second team. As for the fans being 'idiot' enough, after 41 years don't you think there are quite a few disenchanted Leafs fans out there who would make the switch?

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What kind of fans would be idiot enough to cheer for a 2nd team in a "small" city ?

New Yark City : 8 143 197

New York Metropolitan area : 21 903 623 (estimation from 2005)

Toronto : 2 500 000 +

Toronto Metropolitan area : 5 555 912

What are we talking about here ?

*sources are Wikipedia all the way

You only need about 20 000 to fill a stadium though and Toronto is so blindly supportive of hockey that this would work. You're comparing Toronto to the biggest market in North America anyway. Toronto is actually the fourth largest city in the NHL. If you cut their metro pop. in half, thats still in the top 5 for city populations in the NHL.

http://www.statshockey.net/nhlcities.html

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Toronto (Greater) could probably handle three or four teams based on the rabid, if somewhat irrational, love of hockey they have down there. Forget expansion, though, you can relocate Tampa, Florida and Nashville to Toronto and get infinitely better support than where those teams are now.

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I'd have to think that other Canadian cities (Winnipeg, Hamilton) would be considered for an NHL team before TO got a second one.

I think Hamilton could be considered as that second team in the Toronto area, it really isn't that far.... while at the same time being far enough to allow the organization to establish a distinct identity rather that becoming the other Toronto team.

I think Hamilton is a more feasible location for an NHL franchise than Winnipeg or Quebec. I don't know that much about the context in Winnipeg however Quebec could not survive financially when teams were spending 15 millions on players, nor could they sell out every game with an offensive powerhouse playing in a 15,000 seat arena. Also, unlike Minnesota who made a smart and successful move from Bloomington to St-Paul, the Nordiques were located pretty much where they should have been (although I'm sure there are some slighthly better locations, maybe closer to the bridges and the Ste-Foy area depending where the bigger fan base would be).

I could see the Nordiques barely surviving in the NHL, especially with revenue sharing... but I don't know if they could prosper... and unlike large undeveloped US markets such as Las Vegas (they're large if you include tourists), there isn't really much potential for growth; even if things work out as best as could be expected, Quebec would still remain in small hockey market. For the NHL and its owners, that's not a very attractive project.

Hope I'm wrong though, it would be nice to see a few more NHL franchises in cities such as Hamilton, Quebec, and Winnipeg... there could be some great rivalries such Montreal-Quebec-Ottawa, Toronto-Hamilton-Buffalo, or Calgary-Edmonton-Winnipeg-Vancouver.

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I'm not sure Hamilton works. They would have to pay both TO and Buffalo for infringing on boundaries. London or Kitchener is much better, I think. Neither is far enough from TO to preclude fans making the jaunt for games.

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Toronto (Greater) could probably handle three or four teams based on the rabid, if somewhat irrational, love of hockey they have down there. Forget expansion, though, you can relocate Tampa, Florida and Nashville to Toronto and get infinitely better support than where those teams are now.

Actually Tampa Bay has been drawing great crowds ever since they've had a taste of great hockey, and as Vinny Lecavalier pointed out, minor hockey is developping at a great rate, and there are not currently not enough arenas to meet the demand. Will the organization (and the NHL) manage to build a strong fan base that will support the team when it struggles... that remains to be seen, but Tampa Bay is currently doing well as a hockey market, and there is definite potential.

That's another reason I wouldn't give up yet on a market like Atlanta, who's had subpar hockey teams ever since the expansion. You can't develop new markets by offering a mediocre product...

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Actually Tampa Bay has been drawing great crowds ever since they've had a taste of great hockey, and as Vinny Lecavalier pointed out, minor hockey is developping at a great rate, and there are not currently not enough arenas to meet the demand. Will the organization (and the NHL) manage to build a strong fan base that will support the team when it struggles... that remains to be seen, but Tampa Bay is currently doing well as a hockey market, and there is definite potential.

That's another reason I wouldn't give up yet on a market like Atlanta, who's had subpar hockey teams ever since the expansion. You can't develop new markets by offering a mediocre product...

Why try and develop new markets when you can thrive in a market that already exists? Sure it would be great to expand the game and to have it grow all around North America, but that should probably be done when the league is in a stronger position than it is now.

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Toronto easily could support another team, but I don't know if it would. I mean, who is going to root for some new team when the Leafs have been there for so long? The new team would always be playing second fiddle. Ticket prices would have to be pretty low for people to choose to go a game instead of watching their Leafs. Two teams in a city can work, but I don't think it would work with a new team trying to carve a niche where another team has been for so long. Montreal could easily support two teams, but there's no way that they would. Just think if both teams had a playoff game the same night. The arena for the new team would be practically empty!

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Why try and develop new markets when you can thrive in a market that already exists? Sure it would be great to expand the game and to have it grow all around North America, but that should probably be done when the league is in a stronger position than it is now.

Why looking for new markets? Just like at new markets such as Dallas and Colorado who have become some of the strongest markets for the NHL...

And where else could a team currently thrive in Canada? Sure there's an existing fan base in cities like Quebec and Winnipeg, but very little potential for growth. Even in the best case scenarios teams in those cities could probably hardly break even... the league needs to find new markets and solidify the existing ones before we can even think of having teams in smaller markets, that would survive mostly on revenue sharing (like Green Bay in the NFL).

I'm sure there are a lot of US cities - let's say Mobile, Alabama - that absolutely love football, and would do anything to get a local team... that still ain't gonna happen...

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The GTA could concievably support another team. Makes more sense than the Sunbelt.

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Where do they play, if they are based in the city of Toronto? MLSE isn't gonna hand over luxury box and ad revenue, and they bought a minor league team to keep their borders closed to anything non-Leaf. And in today's financial situation, banks and investors are just lining up to throw money into 18,000-20,000 seat arenas in the NHL. Don't see it happening, not within TO anyway.

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Toronto is probably the only city left in the NHL that could handle a second team.

What kind of fans would be idiot enough to cheer for a 2nd team in a "small" city ?

New Yark City : 8 143 197

New York Metropolitan area : 21 903 623 (estimation from 2005)

Toronto : 2 500 000 +

Toronto Metropolitan area : 5 555 912

What are we talking about here ?

Thos numbers don't reflect the actual number of hockey fans in both cities. Tru that the greater NYC metroplitan area has approx 21 million people, but are there 5 million hockey fans in NYC? I doubt it. Whereas the Golden Horseshoe has about 6.5 million people living in it, and 6.4 million of them are hockey mad fans.

As far as putting the team in Hamilton, I doubt it'll happen...unless they can find a compromise with the owners of the Buffalo Sabres. about 30 to 40% of Sabres fans come from the Ontario side of the border, and having a team in Hamilton would KILL the Sabres fan support.

MLSE has said they'd be willing to rent out the ACC to this 2nd franchise ( a bit like what is done in L.A. - The Staples Centre is shared between the Lakers, the Clippers and the Kings) Why not share the ACC between the Leaves, the Raptors and this new team??

And where else could a team currently thrive in Canada? Sure there's an existing fan base in cities like Quebec and Winnipeg, but very little potential for growth. Even in the best case scenarios teams in those cities could probably hardly break even... the league needs to find new markets and solidify the existing ones before we can even think of having teams in smaller markets, that would survive mostly on revenue sharing

Excellent point. As much as I'd love to see the Nordiques and the Jets back in the NHL, i don't think these teams could be SUCCESSFUL teams. They'd always struggle to make ends meat and would always be asking for bigger contributions from revenue sharing.(the Leaves and the Habs contribute 23.5 million$ to revenue sharing[11.5 million$ from the habs]) The markets in Q.C and Winnipeg are too small (both are cities of approx 700,000 people) and more importantly, corporate support would be almost non-existant.

ON the other hand, i could definitely see a team in Seattle. Move the Coyotes out of Phoenix and bring them to seattle (great rivalry opportunity with Vancouver).

Move the Panthers to Toronto(as the second team in the GTA). Move the Hurricanes back to Hartford(the Whalers) and

get the Predators out of Nashville, and move them to Someplace like Milwaukee!

Edited by Habsfan

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ON the other hand, i could definitely see a team in Seattle. Move the Coyotes out of Phoenix and bring them to seattle (great rivalry opportunity with Vancouver).

Move the Panthers to Toronto(as the second team in the GTA). Move the Hurricanes back to Hartford(the Whalers) and

get the Predators out of Nashville, and move them to Someplace like Milwaukee!

I actually mentionned Milwaukee a few months ago. There is already a pretty strong interest for hockey in Wisconsin, there are about 3 million people in the Milwaukee metro area, like the Packers this team could attract the entire state (Green Bay itself is pretty small), they already have the Bradley centre which can can host about 18,000 for hockey games, and there are already talks to build a brand new centre (getting an NHL franchise could make this a reality).

As for Carolina, I wouldn't give up on the market yet as they've been doing better since the team isn't so mediocre; I still think there is potential there (maybe the NHL should put Avery in charge of marketing :lol:)... at the very least I think other markets need to move before them (no one talks about New Jersey while even a decade of highly competitve teams still can't fill their new arena).

Edited by CerebusClone

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As for Carolina, I wouldn't give up on the market yet as they've been doing better since the team isn't so mediocre; I still think there is potential there (maybe the NHL should put Avery in charge of marketing )... at the very least I think other markets need to move before them (no one talks about New Jersey while even a decade of highly competitve teams still can't fill their new arena).

Even after winning a cup, they still don't know who the Hurricanes are in Carolina. All they care about is college basketball and Nascar.

I'm willing to be patient with Atlanta as it's a very big city (4.5 million people) and they've never had a good team.

Carolina on the other hand, has won the cup, and they still struggle.

New Jersey will improve, they just moved into their brand new Arena and that should improve things for them!

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putting a team into hamilton has long been rumored and will probably never happen just due to the money that buffalo and the laffs would want. As to a 2nd sad sack team in T.O., haven't they been embarrassed enough over the last 41 years? :lol: Seriously it would probably kill the marlies and I don't think the Leaves will allow that to happen. A 2nd team in southern ont is definitely viable but where the heck are you going to put it? Sharing rinks is not the answer, as we know a team needs to own the rink (and usually do) (ok not all) in order to generate enough income in this NEW NHL (home of the crazy GM/ Owner). Much ado about nothing gentlemen. IMHO

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Hamilton will never get a team, the reason is Buffalo will do everything to stop it as it would draw away a lot of sabres fans who cross the border to see games. Also, IMO, Copps Coliseum is no longer an NHL rink. Not enough seats or boxes.

Toronto, sadly could EASILY support 2 teams.

A) it's a hockey mad town that has blindly supported a pathetic loser with no future for 41 years. If I had to guess, I'd guess that they have been number 1 in attendance for most if not all those years.

B) NHL is a business. Fans are nice, but corporate sponsors and corporate boxes are where it's at for the new NHL.

"IF" Toronto actually got a new team, everything is already in place for maybe the easiest turn key operation in all of North America. The ACC could easily support another team with creative scheduling, and corporations would line up in droves to support the new team. As much as I hate the Leafs, it's a no brainer to put another team in Toronto.

People who say Toronto's population is not enough, are only counting the core population. You have to include the populations of Hamilton, Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga, Milton, Scarborough, Pickering, Barrie and every town & city in between. Include all this, and you EASILY have the most actual hockey fans and corporations willing to shell out the big bucks for NHL of any part of North America in my opinion. NO BRAINER for Buttman and co.

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Toronto, sadly could EASILY support 2 teams.

Agreed. No doubt about it!

A) it's a hockey mad town that has blindly supported a pathetic loser with no future for 41 years. If I had to guess, I'd guess that they have been number 1 in attendance for most if not all those years.

Actually, you are wrong on that one. Since the Bell Centre(Molson Centre was opened in 1996) the Habs have lead the league in Attendance except for one season (2002) where they were second behind the Red Wings.

If we go further back to the 70's, 80's and early 90's, the Montreal Forum(17,959) had a larger Capacity compared to Maple Leaf Gardens(16,307) I know both arenas had standing room tickets available for games and that could bring the amount of people in the buldings up by 500 or a 1000, but in either case, the Forum could usually accept about 1600 more fans. And the Forum was ALWAYS Sold out!

Edited by Habsfan

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Actually, you are wrong on that one. Since the Bell Centre(Molson Centre was opened in 1996) the Habs have lead the league in Attendance except for one season (2002) where they were second behind the Red Wings.

If we go further back to the 70's, 80's and early 90's, the Montreal Forum(17,959) had a larger Capacity compared to Maple Leaf Gardens(16,307) I know both arenas had standing room tickets available for games and that could bring the amount of people in the buldings up by 500 or a 1000, but in either case, the Forum could usually accept about 1600 more fans. And the Forum was ALWAYS Sold out!

That was just a guess, but they must be number 2 or 3 over that span, no? Having lived in both cities, my observation is that a 2nd team in Montreal wouldn't survive...Montreal is the Habs and the Habs are Montreal, it's like a religion. Toronto is very trendy and full of bandwagon jumpers, I think a 2nd team would do very well There.

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That was just a guess, but they must be number 2 or 3 over that span, no? Having lived in both cities, my observation is that a 2nd team in Montreal wouldn't survive...Montreal is the Habs and the Habs are Montreal, it's like a religion. Toronto is very trendy and full of bandwagon jumpers, I think a 2nd team would do very well There.

You said you lived in Montreal...

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