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I respect your opinion, CC, and time will tell. However, I'm not sure it's fair to judge Carbo on what he chooses to say or not say to the media. As for tactics, hey, I don't pretend to have a superior grasp of NHL tactics, but it seems to me that this team does have a very clear identity - they're a freewheeling, high-tempo, quick transition, three-line-attack team. Their system is quite likely identical to that of Detroit.

Why is Detroit so much better, then? First, you watch them play, you'll see that every single Red Wing is personally committed to winning every single one-on-one battle at both ends of the rink every night. It would be an overstatement to say this of our Habs, God love 'em. Second, almost every Wing backchecks, smartly and effectively; there's no big gap (although Zetterberg will float around looking for the breakaway pass, if things look to be in hand in the Wings' end). Third, their D are always well-supported in their zone and are uniformly effective at making a quick, smart, breakout pass. Fourth, Detroit always deploys incredible puck support. That's why they make so many short passes in advancing the rush - there's always another guy there to support the carrier. Fifth, Detroit's D probably don't concede the zone nearly as easily as ours do. We seem to be backing in way too early, or else simply getting beat on the outside.

When we're firing on all cylanders, we look a lot like the Wings. But our D is just not as talented as Detroit's. It will always be shakier and will always be more vulnerable to an aggressive forecheck. That's where you need the other elements of the team to kick in - great puck support, determination one-on-one, tough backchecking, etc.. And this is why I think the problem is ultimately motivation and commitment to a total team game in all three zones. Right now we're a dangerous but a FUN team to play against, win or lose. That's gotta change.

If I were to consider a coaching move, it would be to add someone who specializes in coaching just the defence. A Jacques Lapperiere type. But I think the real issue, for the most part, is in the players' heads.

Exactly... and all this comes from the system implemented by the coach and the organization over the years, which is also why by no means am I suggesting that Carbonneau should be fired. This would be ridiculous. However being a high-tempo team with 3 offensive lines is not a system. just a reality. I see the players skate, work hard, block shots, hit every time they can... but I still don't see a coherent whole, a team playing smart and efficient hockey, instead I feel the players are improvising during most situations (besides special teams), and they still can't anticipate each other decisions/position well.

You're right, we cannot judge Carbonneau from his comments... still all I hear/see from him is public criticism every time a players isn't producing (e. Sergei Kostsitsyn recently) or when the team isn't playing that well... basically always the same old cliches ans easy excuses...

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I dont think any single player on the Canadiens gave it 110% last night. I love the tenacity in Sergei Kostitsyn...going after Garbageofski made me feel a little bit better; maybe he should be given a chance to play with Koivu and Tanguay? What has he really done to be in Carbonneau's doghouse already? On a side note...who put the cement in Latendresse and Obyrne's skates..my god they are tugboats! Was Carbonneau trying to send a message to his top line players by sending the 4th line out so much tonight? If your going to make a statement, at least do it in practice; not in the 3rd period of a game that is still within your reach! I really hope Hamrlik comes back soon, they are hurting badly without him on the back end. Last but not least, last night's

3 stink stars are: Markov, O'Byrne, Kovalev. I better see a team effort on Tuesday vs the Hens

Edited by l<OV4L3V
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I really hope Hamrlik comes back soon, they are hurting badly without him on the back end. I better see a team effort on Tuesday vs the Hens

You're damned right, we'd better see a better effort next time out. If we don't, Carbo should start stapling their testicles to the dressing room wall. Two efforts like that would be equivalent to crapping on everyone from management to fans to themselves.

And you're absolutely, bang-on right about Hamrlik. He is a HUGE element of our defence. He was the single biggest reason (after Kovy) for last season's explosion - a completely underrated and almost completely indispensable player for us. In fact, only Koivu and Markov may be more valuable to the overall team performance.

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To CC:

I agree with you and have not been a fan of Carbo at any point since he's been in MTL.

You wanted to know what his strategy is, well he's relying on the players to make him look good.... it's "Read and react" and that my friends is the difference between Montreal and Detroit, one has a system and one is only the players instincts. :puke:

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Thanks !!!!

Every time I see your sig, I laugh. The greatest of all time.

We were badly outworked last night by a young, fast team but we have all seen that many times before.

The worry for me is our defense. You take one of Hamrlik, Komisarek or Markov (even though he was bad last night) out of the line up and our defense is just picked apart. I would strongly consider trading for a solid Dman.

Price wasn't great last night but he was getting bombarded by pucks and bodies.

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my opinion, which doesnt mean much, but here it is; we don't have as much talent as everyone thinks. I think last years revival was a result of what the leafs did to us this tonight. We have some great players but motivation is a major factor. We were 8-1-2 and with a loss tonight our record is evident but people are tremendously upset. No need to be upset, I would have given my right testicle to know we would be 8-2-2 to start the season. Starting off as bad as we are and having the record we have can't be all bad. The boys will wake up. The only true question is will Mr. Price have some of the Mr. Roy in him to carry us through to the promised land.

Was terribly disappointed with the english commentating of the game. BIASED. old kosty didn't try to trip him, didn't try to hit him, he tried to reach for the puch and got skate, that's it. horrible announcing. 2. I can't believe that someone didn't see higgins put that puck in the net. I saw it on the first replay. Grabovsky is going to get raped in Habland. Call on Markov was garbage as well. Diving competition : Leafs 523.75 Habs 50.35. habs was price trying to sell the second penalty but that was about it

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my opinion, which doesnt mean much, but here it is; we don't have as much talent as everyone thinks. I think last years revival was a result of what the leafs did to us this tonight. We have some great players but motivation is a major factor. We were 8-1-2 and with a loss tonight our record is evident but people are tremendously upset. No need to be upset, I would have given my right testicle to know we would be 8-2-2 to start the season. Starting off as bad as we are and having the record we have can't be all bad. The boys will wake up. The only true question is will Mr. Price have some of the Mr. Roy in him to carry us through to the promised land.

Was terribly disappointed with the english commentating of the game. BIASED. old kosty didn't try to trip him, didn't try to hit him, he tried to reach for the puch and got skate, that's it. horrible announcing. 2. I can't believe that someone didn't see higgins put that puck in the net. I saw it on the first replay. Grabovsky is going to get raped in Habland. Call on Markov was garbage as well. Diving competition : Leafs 523.75 Habs 50.35. habs was price trying to sell the second penalty but that was about it

Are you refering to the high stick goal/no goal?

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Could anyone figure out what Saku was saying to Grabs when him and sergei we're tooling around? It seems Saku has taken Sergei under his wing since Andrei's hit. Coming in to cool shit down was pretty big of our captain.

Like everyone here I was pretty bummed at our effort, I'm not going to try and figure out what happened and just blame it on the lay-offs. Let's see how we play after a good solid week to get our legs going. I don't know if anyone caught Gainey taking notes during a Leaf goal but rest assured there is going to be names called out at the next practice .

I think we can officially give Grabs some credit. He is fast, He has skill, He's small, but it doesn't matter when you can make Markov look like a sitting duck and roof it on Price at top speed and ease. The kid looks good. Real good. Leaf fans are going to make sure we hear about it too, which sucks because all we can do is agree at this point.

I hope the russian feud develops into a good Ovechkin vs Malkin type of deal. I want to see Sergei beat his little cold sore lipped head right into the ice next time.

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Could anyone figure out what Saku was saying to Grabs when him and sergei we're tooling around? It seems Saku has taken Sergei under his wing since Andrei's hit. Coming in to cool shit down was pretty big of our captain.

Like everyone here I was pretty bummed at our effort, I'm not going to try and figure out what happened and just blame it on the lay-offs. Let's see how we play after a good solid week to get our legs going. I don't know if anyone caught Gainey taking notes during a Leaf goal but rest assured there is going to be names called out at the next practice .

I think we can officially give Grabs some credit. He is fast, He has skill, He's small, but it doesn't matter when you can make Markov look like a sitting duck and roof it on Price at top speed and ease. The kid looks good. Real good. Leaf fans are going to make sure we hear about it too, which sucks because all we can do is agree at this point.

I hope the russian feud develops into a good Ovechkin vs Malkin type of deal. I want to see Sergei beat his little cold sore lipped head right into the ice next time.

Agreed.

You can bet Price was hoping Sergie would get a hold of him after taking that Butt end in the nuts.

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Since I come back to this site to read the excellent articles on the front page; I take a look into the forums here a few times to see if anything is new.

This discussion in this thread is interesting in that a few people have finally seen the Habs worst problem. Coaching! As much as I like all the guys they hired, I find Montreal to be a poorly coached team. There are NO offensive plays, and too much dropping back to screen the goalies on defense. The defenceman have no breakout plays and cough up the puck constantly behind the net. Brisbois would not make a junior B team yet I see his constant cough ups game after game. I have ZERO confidence in this coaching staff as the team and coaches are horrible defensively.

If this continues the mighty Leafs( :puke: ) will pass the Habs in the standings.

The only person I can say I am mad at is me. New Widescreen TV, RDS subscription and habs enthusiasm to watch a season of one good game so far. What the L was I thinking?

Well back to exile with me.......

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Could anyone figure out what Saku was saying to Grabs when him and sergei we're tooling around? It seems Saku has taken Sergei under his wing since Andrei's hit. Coming in to cool shit down was pretty big of our captain.

Like everyone here I was pretty bummed at our effort, I'm not going to try and figure out what happened and just blame it on the lay-offs. Let's see how we play after a good solid week to get our legs going. I don't know if anyone caught Gainey taking notes during a Leaf goal but rest assured there is going to be names called out at the next practice .

I think we can officially give Grabs some credit. He is fast, He has skill, He's small, but it doesn't matter when you can make Markov look like a sitting duck and roof it on Price at top speed and ease. The kid looks good. Real good. Leaf fans are going to make sure we hear about it too, which sucks because all we can do is agree at this point.

I hope the russian feud develops into a good Ovechkin vs Malkin type of deal. I want to see Sergei beat his little cold sore lipped head right into the ice next time.

I thinks Saku said something like " look you little pussy get up off your ass and play like a man, or one of us is going to jam your stick up your ying yang and give you some back bone" or at least a facsimile of that. I think he probably told him that last year as well. that's when he went crying to his agent. :lol:

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Well that was a pathetic effort, the score could have been 10. I am still not understanding the blame Carbo thing. As a coach he is like 50 games over 500. It's not his fault his team has no work ethic or takes stupid penalties. i wish he'd start benching good players again.

I beleive Gc himself said it was the worst game he has been apart of.

As i said several times, the hot goaltending was masking some huge problems defensively, they are really bad in there own end, i mean all of them. They don't use the body, 4 habs around the net, 1 leaf and while the habe players are watching the puck the leaf player just put it in. Take the body and hit someone. Bribsby on the second goal? come on, hit soeone one. While the rest just stared at the puck.

The worst problem right now is work ethic, they are very lazy, they take way too many hooking and holding penalties, that is a sign of being lazy. Also they aren't getting many PP, that is from not going to the net and skating.

They aren't that fast of a team, they say they are but really are not. The D as whole are slow.

Obviously i must be the only one who was disturbed by Price getting knocked down 3 times, butt ended once in the groin and the Habs players gave no response. That is embarrassing and a sign the team isn't together. During the Florida game they took care of it, why did they get Laraque if he isn't going to pound on people. I'm tired of watching SK having to be the only tough guy.

The bottom line id they have a great record after playing alot of bad hockey, time to turn it around and start playing some good hockey. They have it in them.

I would look for some line changes. If i were BG i would be looking for a D upgrade in a hurry.

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Well, i have to admit that I was ashamed at the performance from our guys. It was a just a matter of time before they got their asses handed to them. HTey had played like pussies for the past 4 games, and kept getting lucky. That did not happen saturday night! Our boys did not deserve to win, the Leaves did!

Hopefully, this will wake them up.

I don't get why some on the boards are blaming Carbonneau and the coaching staff. We have a 8-2-2 record. The season is only 12 games old, and some here are already strting to panic!! Some of you need to calm down!

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Obviously i must be the only one who was disturbed by Price getting knocked down 3 times, butt ended once in the groin and the Habs players gave no response. That is embarrassing and a sign the team isn't together. During the Florida game they took care of it, why did they get Laraque if he isn't going to pound on people. I'm tired of watching SK having to be the only tough guy.

.

I never thought this would happen myself. We find ourselves in a strange position. Laraque shouldn't go around instigating because he'll get the extra 2 min which would suck. The part that sucks even worse is no one wants to get into it with him so it kind of makes him void on the ice.

Hopefully he'll figure it out with Carbo on how to approach this. I loved the way he policed the game the night Andrei got hit. If nobody wants to throw with george then LIL #### or Laps needs to get mouthy and when the player pushes back BGL needs to barrel in and say hello in a firm "don't touch him or you will be eating my fist" kind a way. Same with Price being shoved. BGL needs to go on the ice and make sure the other team knows that If you even think about stepping into our blue paint again, you are basically saying you want to fight me. I'm sure there would be a dramatic decline in attempts to run Price.

I'm not worried though. The boys know they've been lame, it will get a lot better..... Leafs are overachieving and we are underachieving. They'll burn out when we? We'll get hot. I hope.

Let's thank our boys for giving them 2 points. Remember we still want the Leafs to think they can make the play-offs. :lol:

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Yea, i'm not talking about stupid penalties just taking people's heads off. He can have interfered with Toskala. He could have done some talking and pushing. The D needs to get people off Price as well. Komi / O'Byrne are MIA in front of the net.

After Price got butt ended someone should have grabbed Grabovski and pounded him. Who cares about the penlties in that situation, they were getting embarrassed anyway. The smallest player on the ice butt ending your goalie and nothing happens. My rec league would have had a better response. That is weak, even Don Cherry called it a chicken sh## move.

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Well that was a pathetic effort, the score could have been 10. I am still not understanding the blame Carbo thing. As a coach he is like 50 games over 500. It's not his fault his team has no work ethic or takes stupid penalties. i wish he'd start benching good players again.

I beleive Gc himself said it was the worst game he has been apart of.

As i said several times, the hot goaltending was masking some huge problems defensively, they are really bad in there own end, i mean all of them. They don't use the body, 4 habs around the net, 1 leaf and while the habe players are watching the puck the leaf player just put it in. Take the body and hit someone. Bribsby on the second goal? come on, hit soeone one. While the rest just stared at the puck.

The worst problem right now is work ethic, they are very lazy, they take way too many hooking and holding penalties, that is a sign of being lazy. Also they aren't getting many PP, that is from not going to the net and skating.

They aren't that fast of a team, they say they are but really are not. The D as whole are slow.

Obviously i must be the only one who was disturbed by Price getting knocked down 3 times, butt ended once in the groin and the Habs players gave no response. That is embarrassing and a sign the team isn't together. During the Florida game they took care of it, why did they get Laraque if he isn't going to pound on people. I'm tired of watching SK having to be the only tough guy.

The bottom line id they have a great record after playing alot of bad hockey, time to turn it around and start playing some good hockey. They have it in them.

I would look for some line changes. If i were BG i would be looking for a D upgrade in a hurry.

Carbonneau may be 50 games over .500 as a coach… but this is also the record for this group of players over that time span. If this is proof that the coach is fault-less, then shouldn’t it be the same for the players? This is a team, and there are players who need to do their job as well as a coach who needs to get the most out of the resources he’s given.

Also a player is forced to hook when he’s out of position and behind the play, and while it can be a lack of effort when we’re talking about one individual repeating the same mistakes over and over, it can very well also be because of an inefficient system, inadequate strategies, players not comfortable with or not understanding their role … and other possible coaching-related issues that have absolutely nothing to do with a lack of effort.

I’m not saying all the blame is on Carbonneau’s shoulders… however simply blaming the players for a lack of effort is not only taking the easy way, but doesn’t solve potential problems at the root. As I said I have yet to see a real efficient system emerging over the last 2-3 years, however I’ve seen the talent level rise significantly thanks to the work of Gainey and Timmins, and I’ve seen some strong team chemistry and work ethics put in place thanks to Guy Carbonneau. We’re skating, we’re hitting, we’re working hard… but I don’t think we’re playing smart, efficient, and calculated hockey. Sure we’re winning, but more often than not I think it is because of great individual efforts (sometimes Tanguay has a great game, another night it’s Kovalev… and sometimes no one saves the day).

The team didn’t play any worse than it had over the last few games… the difference is that no one saved the team this time… no great rally like against the Islanders, or some lucky breaks like against the Panthers…

Carbonneau is a good coach, but sometimes I’m wonder if he’s not more suited for a blue-collar type of team… and whether he can lead a skilled roster to the Championship… as I said before, I see a lot of talent on the ice, but I didn’t see a well oiled-machine last season, and I don’t see any improvements in that regards this season. I understand that it takes a long time to build something like they have in Detroit where even marginal and rejected players become hockey machines, but something should be emerging, and I’m just not sure it is…

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After Price got butt ended someone should have grabbed Grabovski and pounded him. Who cares about the penlties in that situation, they were getting embarrassed anyway. The smallest player on the ice butt ending your goalie and nothing happens. My rec league would have had a better response. That is weak, even Don Cherry called it a chicken sh## move.

Grabovski was just defensing his territory, he's allowed to stand there in front of the goalie, and Price was hitting him (he was also trying to defend his territory). Personally I wish our players with do more of the same (except for the spear)...

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Carbonneau may be 50 games over .500 as a coach… but this is also the record for this group of players over that time span. If this is proof that the coach is fault-less, then shouldn’t it be the same for the players? This is a team, and there are players who need to do their job as well as a coach who needs to get the most out of the resources he’s given.

Also a player is forced to hook when he’s out of position and behind the play, and while it can be a lack of effort when we’re talking about one individual repeating the same mistakes over and over, it can very well also be because of an inefficient system, inadequate strategies, players not comfortable with or not understanding their role … and other possible coaching-related issues that have absolutely nothing to do with a lack of effort.

I’m not saying all the blame is on Carbonneau’s shoulders… however simply blaming the players for a lack of effort is not only taking the easy way, but doesn’t solve potential problems at the root. As I said I have yet to see a real efficient system emerging over the last 2-3 years, however I’ve seen the talent level rise significantly thanks to the work of Gainey and Timmins, and I’ve seen some strong team chemistry and work ethics put in place thanks to Guy Carbonneau. We’re skating, we’re hitting, we’re working hard… but I don’t think we’re playing smart, efficient, and calculated hockey. Sure we’re winning, but more often than not I think it is because of great individual efforts (sometimes Tanguay has a great game, another night it’s Kovalev… and sometimes no one saves the day).

The team didn’t play any worse than it had over the last few games… the difference is that no one saved the team this time… no great rally like against the Islanders, or some lucky breaks like against the Panthers…

Carbonneau is a good coach, but sometimes I’m wonder if he’s not more suited for a blue-collar type of team… and whether he can lead a skilled roster to the Championship… as I said before, I see a lot of talent on the ice, but I didn’t see a well oiled-machine last season, and I don’t see any improvements in that regards this season. I understand that it takes a long time to build something like they have in Detroit where even marginal and rejected players become hockey machines, but something should be emerging, and I’m just not sure it is…

The only question, to me, is whether this coaching staff is spending enough time teaching and insisting on a committed defensive game. Our problems start there. And it affects your offence, because poor defensive coverage prevents you from playing that puck possession game and making effective breakouts. Yet our entire system is predicated on an explosive transition game.

The thing is, these problems may NOT be the result of faulty coaching. They may be the result of fundamental complacency by the players, who never like to play hard defence; an attitude that "we don't NEED to do this, because one of our many talented players will bail us out of a jam." It's one thing for individual players to work hard on the ice, it's another for them all to buy into a team concept in the defensive zone.

In a sense, we agree - I'm just saying that the burden may lie more on complacent players than the coaches' systems or competence. Of course, it's the coach's job to get the players to buy in. But some lessons have to be learned by experience; if Carbo keeps telling them that they can't win on sheer talent, and they actually DO win lots of games on sheer talent, then the message is for naught, and it's not really Carbo's fault.

That, again, is my fear...that these guys won't really internalize the message until it's too late: after a playoff humiliation and a partial dismantling of the best Habs' team in 15 years.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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On another sight i read a 60 minute closed door meeting this morning followed by a 75 minute tough practice. I'll be interested to see how they come out tomorrow.

Hopefully GC and BG can light a fire under a few guys butts.

No word on Kotopolous and a suspension.

Hamrlik practiced and is expected to play tomorrow

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I don't want to get on anyones case, but whats wrong with Lats? Is he injured? It just seemed like when ever he had the puck he coughed it up all night. All players infact were having a hard time controlling the puck (bad ice..its a conspiracy!).

I don't know if Carbo told BGL not to go out and introduce himself, but this was the perfect type of game for him to showcase his 'skills'. After the first goalie interferance call you think a message would have to have been sent. If hes not here for his toughness, I see no reason for him at all.

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On another sight i read a 60 minute closed door meeting this morning followed by a 75 minute tough practice. I'll be interested to see how they come out tomorrow.

Hopefully GC and BG can light a fire under a few guys butts.

No word on Kotopolous and a suspension.

Hamrlik practiced and is expected to play tomorrow

I hope a large part of that meeting was used reviewing tapes, fine-tuning the system, and making sure everybody understands what he has to do... otherwise the guys will likely skate harder for the next couple games, but the underlying problems will remain whole.

When the players display sound positioning, when they anticipate each other's reactions, when they're confident, and know how to react to most game situations, they don't need to skate as hard as they can and hit everything they can because they control the pace of the game and have the other need team running around like a bunch of headless chicken. So far this season, I haven't seen the Habs control a single game... (except for the first period against Boston).

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