Real Leadership

[KoZed]

Just saw pictures of Jackman from the NYI bumping into the Lightning's goalie.

Which TB players slashed Jackman and dropped the gloves right then and there to get retribution? The guy wearing the C and the #1 player on the team. Lecavalier.

That is real leadership. Enrico Ciccone just told a story on TV about how one time his teammate & captain Chris Chelios tossed him aside so he could take care of McSorley himself.

When are we gonna get that kind of leadership here?

And YES, I want to see Saku or Kovy or Markov jump guys when necessary. Markov should have been all over Gauthier, just to send the message that we wont get pushed around.

If they can't do that, can't bring that kind of WARRIOR leadership, then get leaders who will.

[Fanpuck33]

Every so often Koivu shows flashes of that. You can see the look in his eyes that he wants to go with someone, but then he lets a teammate, seems like Bouillon usually, pull him off and do the fighting. I would love for them to just let him go at it with someone for once. I'm all for standing up for teammates, but if your captain is the one initiating a conflict, then you gotta let him fight his own battle. That is, unless he's trying to pick a fight with someone who is clearly going to clobber him.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Koivu used to be much more aggressive, but the endless parade of injuries taught him to marshall his energies more efficiently. I for one don't particularly want him fighting and "jumping guys." With respect - did Yzerman do this? Sakic?

Anyone who doubts Koivu's passion and commitment hasn't been paying attention to the last 10 years.

[saskhab]

Different guys lead in different ways. Saku is an effective leader the way he goes about things. That doesn't mean Vinny is wrong for what he does, it just means that they play the game the way they believe their team wants them to play it.

[KoZed]

Koivu used to be much more aggressive, but the endless parade of injuries taught him to marshall his energies more efficiently. I for one don't particularly want him fighting and "jumping guys." With respect - did Yzerman do this? Sakic?

Anyone who doubts Koivu's passion and commitment hasn't been paying attention to the last 10 years.

Ugh. I'm so tired of people trying to compare Koivu to Yzerman or Sakic.

Saku is nowhere close to Stevie Y or Burnaby Joe, alright? Nowhere. Not even remotely in the same class.

Yzerman has 3 Stanley Cups, one Conn-Smythe, one Selke, 10 times All-Star, one 1st All-Star Team, one Masterton and 692 goals & 1755 pts in 1514 games (1.16 career PPG).

Sakic has 2 Cups, 1 Conn-Smythe, 1 Hart, 1 Lady-Byng, 12 All-Star games, 3 first All-Star team, and 625 goals & 1641 pts in 1378 career games (1.19 career PPG).

Koivu: no Cup, no Smythe, 1 All-Star game, 1 Masterton and 183 goals & 617 pts in 760 career games (0.81 career PPG).

Not that Saks isnt good, but can we just agree right now to never, eeeeever bring up Yzerman and Sakic everytime its time to justify Saku's "calm leadership". Yzerman & Sakic are two of the best centers IN THE HISTORY OF THE NHL. They could lead by their exceptionnal talent alone. They could reply to a vicous hit by putting a goal and setting up two more. Koivu can't.

It's not even the point, and it wasnt just Koivu either. Point is that right now the Habs needs that edge, and leaders has to show the way. I was thinking much more about Kovy & Markov. These guys only seem to get rough when they get hit, never when its a teammate that gets it bad. Dont have to jump the guy (hard to do from the bench), but at least on your next shift go ring the bells of the top guys on the other side. Be a warrior. Plain and simple.

Different guys lead in different ways. Saku is an effective leader the way he goes about things. That doesn't mean Vinny is wrong for what he does, it just means that they play the game the way they believe their team wants them to play it.

Yeah but in recent years we cant say it has been too effective, no?

[johnnyhasbeen]

Just saw pictures of Jackman from the NYI bumping into the Lightning's goalie.

Which TB players slashed Jackman and dropped the gloves right then and there to get retribution? The guy wearing the C and the #1 player on the team. Lecavalier.

That is real leadership. Enrico Ciccone just told a story on TV about how one time his teammate & captain Chris Chelios tossed him aside so he could take care of McSorley himself.

When are we gonna get that kind of leadership here?

And YES, I want to see Saku or Kovy or Markov jump guys when necessary. Markov should have been all over Gauthier, just to send the message that we wont get pushed around.

If they can't do that, can't bring that kind of WARRIOR leadership, then get leaders who will.

I am just having a hard time picture Captain Smurff "tossing" BGL aside to take care of even Lucic himself, let alone someone of McSorley's stature.

Can you say sidelined indefintaley with multible facial injuries and a fractured skull? However,does all leadership require that sort of grit? I don't think so. If you can show it on the score board, put up 100 pnts a year, then you lead in a different way. Leave the policing to a BGL or McSorley type. However, if even in your carreer season that every one of your jock sniffing blogging fans use to defend you to the hilt, you can't muster a point a game avg, well.....

I agree that any player on the ice has to jump any player that takes liberty with your team mates. To jump a player though doesn't mean to drop te gloves in hockey, not always. If we had mobbed him. got him down under a pile.... Ever been in there? Thumbs in he eye. Face washes. Dirty stuff happens in there at times. I have known guys to get nagging injuries because in a pile some guy had his elbow shoved into his lower back an an odd angle. That hurts more and longer than black eye. That is when to get dirty and not get called for it. During a pileup.

Leadership? I want our leader to mainly air an intense confidence, with that I will win attitude. The type of player that when the other guys look down the bench at him and we are down by 2 with under 5 ,minutes left, they get that air of confidence by his intenseness. They know he will not lose, he doesn't take losing well, he will find a way to get those goals. It is the "I hate to lose so I don't" attittude. I want a winner to lead,not someone who loses with class. That is what I don't understand. Why don't they seem to care? I use to smash $45 goalie sticks back in '82 if my team lost a game to a team we should beat. I remember walking into the dressingroom after a second period in which the puck only seemed to leave our zone for faceoffs at centre and throwing my mask at one of our top stars who was joking wth his buddies across the room! Cracked an expensive mask over that! Point is, they got the point and the next period, although not great was better. I have yet to see that anger from anyone on this team since StPat left the building. When we lose a game, to a good team let alone the bottom dwellers, we should be pissed!

With that in mind, and the talk I hear about possible trades, I beg Mr Gainey not to ever trade the future captain, a true winner, PK Subban. Hates to lose, has to win but makes his team mates feel good. A real leader!

[Koivu11]

With all do respect Kozed I don't think TCC was comparing Koivu to Yzerman or Sakic, he was just asking if either of the two "jumped" other players...

[Easy Ryder]

Real team leadership doesn't apply to one player leadership.

The team is more important than one player even if it's Lecavalier.

It shows on the ice.

Exemple for last night.

Komisarek pushing around with Malkin and bring him to the penalty box.

Henry drops right after a goal to change the beat.

Gorges played with grit like nothing ever happened.

Koivu skated to his maximum to do legal obstruction to let Higgins alone with the goalie.

They just have to bring this to the other games.

[Habitforming]

Ugh. I'm so tired of people trying to compare Koivu to Yzerman or Sakic.

Saku is nowhere close to Stevie Y or Burnaby Joe, alright? Nowhere. Not even remotely in the same class.

Yzerman has 3 Stanley Cups, one Conn-Smythe, one Selke, 10 times All-Star, one 1st All-Star Team, one Masterton and 692 goals & 1755 pts in 1514 games (1.16 career PPG).

Sakic has 2 Cups, 1 Conn-Smythe, 1 Hart, 1 Lady-Byng, 12 All-Star games, 3 first All-Star team, and 625 goals & 1641 pts in 1378 career games (1.19 career PPG).

Koivu: no Cup, no Smythe, 1 All-Star game, 1 Masterton and 183 goals & 617 pts in 760 career games (0.81 career PPG).

Not that Saks isnt good, but can we just agree right now to never, eeeeever bring up Yzerman and Sakic everytime its time to justify Saku's "calm leadership". Yzerman & Sakic are two of the best centers IN THE HISTORY OF THE NHL. They could lead by their exceptionnal talent alone. They could reply to a vicous hit by putting a goal and setting up two more. Koivu can't.

It's not even the point, and it wasnt just Koivu either. Point is that right now the Habs needs that edge, and leaders has to show the way. I was thinking much more about Kovy & Markov. These guys only seem to get rough when they get hit, never when its a teammate that gets it bad. Dont have to jump the guy (hard to do from the bench), but at least on your next shift go ring the bells of the top guys on the other side. Be a warrior. Plain and simple.

Yeah but in recent years we cant say it has been too effective, no?

Don't forget Koz the 80's helped Yzerman's stats as well (Sakic to a lesser extent). But yes they are both better players and I'm sure the comparison stopped after the jumping players part

As for Lecavlier "Leading his team" I bet he would have been more help to the team that lost by a goal instead of spending 5 mins in the box. You can't tell me the Islanders coaches weren't giddy with that trade off.

[Chris]

Kozed, i hear exactly what your saying. Like last night when Crosby ran over Price, nothing was even said to him. Then after the whistle he goes over and shoves Price, the habs just turned around and skated away.

Playing a good team game is fine, and they were pretty physical last night, but if you are not going to stand up for your best player the team has issues in that department. 1 win won't solve it.

[brobin]

I would be happy if they all stood up a bit more, and if Koivu would lean over on the bench and say to BGL,..."buddy, that guy just took some liberties.. we need ya.. go send a message with your fists and I will go send a message with a goal"

[Chris]

Laraque knows what to do and when to do it. Koivu needs to tell everyone else that.

Atleast Henry has showed up twice. He is 0-1-1, but it's better then 0-2.

[ForumGhost]

Fighting has nothing to do with leadership. Saku leads by example on the ice by working hard every shift and never giving up on a play, no matter how many times he gets knocked over by bigger guys. Also, the general opinion is that he's a great locker room leader. I'm proud to have Koivu as our captain.

[Habitforming]

Fighting has nothing to do with leadership. Saku leads by example on the ice by working hard every shift and never giving up on a play, no matter how many times he gets knocked over by bigger guys. Also, the general opinion is that he's a great locker room leader. I'm proud to have Koivu as our captain.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Uh...yes, I was saying that Koivu leads in the same basic manner as Sakic and Yzerman, not that he is somehow as good a player as those guys. (He might have been, but that awful ACL tear he suffered in 1995-96 ended that). The point is, as everyone has said, there's many different styles of leadership.

Frankly, I would be just astounded if every single player in that dressing room - with the possible exception of Kovalev and maybe one or two of his Russian proteges - doesn't look at Saku Koivu as a living example of commitment, passion, and intensity. Gorges called him the best captain in hockey. Gainey called him a champion. I myself have watched a player who gives his all on a nightly basis (but who has, sadly, been periodically hampered by injury and the limits of size and physical endurance). He clearly asserts himself to his teammates - have you heard him miked on the ice? Clearly this guy is The Man vis-a-vis his linemates - and has always stood up for himself, within reason, on the ice. He always wants the puck at key times and more often than not delivers.

That's a 'leader.'

Is he the greatest player in the world? No. Should he have his number retired? No. Is he an elite #1 C? No.

Is he in any way the 'problem' with this team?

NO.

Edited February 4, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Psycing]

I believe Lapierre is slowly cutting his way into the leadership group currently shared by Koivu, Kovalev, Higgins, Komisarek, and Markov.

Either way, what Lecavalier did last night was awesome. I just saw the vid on Sports centre and was thinking that someone ought to bring it up here (can always count on Koz for that )

Koivu doesn't need to fight - just has to bring the big hits we've all seen him do. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go at it when absolutely necessary - but only if it doesn't put his team at risk (i.e. he's more important on the power play, not in the penalty box)

Laraque is coming back, and here's hoping that he doesn't get injured again. That guy was brought in for a reason, and it was so teams would think twice about pulling something Gauthier did - because if you did do that, you have to know you'd have to answer to George Laraque - not Tom Kostopoulos (who's 0-50), Francis Bouillon (who can keep a fight going, but doesn't usually win), or Mike Komisarek (who after the Lucic fight, we don't want ever dropping the gloves again in fear of injury).

Laraque shouldn't get injured in a fight, because he should be the best. If he's the best, he won't lose. If he won't lose, there's a much better chance his opponent will be the one getting hurt.

[Habitforming]

Uh...yes, I was saying that Koivu leads in the same basic manner as Sakic and Yzerman, not that he is somehow as good a player as those guys. (He might have been, but that awful ACL tear he suffered in 1995-96 ended that). The point is, as everyone has said, there's many different styles of leadership.

Frankly, I would be just astounded if every single player in that dressing room - with the possible exception of Kovalev and maybe one or two of his Russian proteges - doesn't look at Saku Koivu as a living example of commitment, passion, and intensity. Gorges called him the best captain in hockey. Gainey called him a champion. I myself have watched a player who gives his all on a nightly basis (but who has, sadly, been periodically hampered by injury and the limits of size and physical endurance). He clearly asserts himself to his teammates - have you heard him miked on the ice? Clearly this guy is The Man vis-a-vis his linemates - and has always stood up for himself, within reason, on the ice. He always wants the puck at key times and more often than not delivers.

That's a 'leader.'

Is he the greatest player in the world? No. Should he have his number retired? No. Is he an elite #1 C? No.

Is he in any way the 'problem' with this team?

NO.

Very Nicely Put !!

[KoZed]

Kozed, i hear exactly what your saying. Like last night when Crosby ran over Price, nothing was even said to him. Then after the whistle he goes over and shoves Price, the habs just turned around and skated away.

Playing a good team game is fine, and they were pretty physical last night, but if you are not going to stand up for your best player the team has issues in that department. 1 win won't solve it.

EXACTLY!

When Komi did the same thing to Thomas, they were FIVE BRUINS on him! FIVE!

Crosby should have been flattened so hard he wouldnt have dared to come within 15 feet of Price for the rest of the game.

@ the Sakic/Yzerman thing: It has been used countless time before, I wasnt just replying to TCC but to the whole idea of comparing those everytime. They dont compare. Yzerman had 3 fights his whole career. Having Probert on your team in the no instigator era helps.

[saskhab]

Speaking of the team's leadership group, I did notice that Higgins has not been given back his 'A' since returning from injury. In fact, Komisarek has leapfrogged past Markov (who was given an 'A' after Higgins was hurt) and Higgins to keep the letter stitched on his sweater.

Just to recap, it appears our captaincy depth chart goes like this: Koivu, Kovalev, Komisarek. 4th is either Higgins or Markov.

[KoZed]

Uh...yes, I was saying that Koivu leads in the same basic manner as Sakic and Yzerman, not that he is somehow as good a player as those guys. (He might have been, but that awful ACL tear he suffered in 1995-96 ended that). The point is, as everyone has said, there's many different styles of leadership.

Frankly, I would be just astounded if every single player in that dressing room - with the possible exception of Kovalev and maybe one or two of his Russian proteges - doesn't look at Saku Koivu as a living example of commitment, passion, and intensity. Gorges called him the best captain in hockey. Gainey called him a champion. I myself have watched a player who gives his all on a nightly basis (but who has, sadly, been periodically hampered by injury and the limits of size and physical endurance). He clearly asserts himself to his teammates - have you heard him miked on the ice? Clearly this guy is The Man vis-a-vis his linemates - and has always stood up for himself, within reason, on the ice. He always wants the puck at key times and more often than not delivers.

That's a 'leader.'

Is he the greatest player in the world? No. Should he have his number retired? No. Is he an elite #1 C? No.

Is he in any way the 'problem' with this team?

NO.

That's all fine and dandy. Respect is great...

... but where are the results?

When the players never answer to huge hits on their teammates year after year after year, dont you wonder how comes nobody says or does anything? Nobody jumped McLaren when he broke Zednik's face and nobody did anything to Gauthier or to the rest of the Kings for the rest of the game.

The team grit simply isnt there. Dont you wonder why? Dont you wish it'd change?

RESULTS.

I'm tired of hearing the same excuses year after year. I dont care who wears the C and weither Saku is admired or not. Do... not... care... anymore.

RESULTS

The players can love Saku all they want, they're still playing like pussies. If the players love their captain so much, shouldnt they be inspired to stand up and fight for the team instead? And defend one another? Why arent they?

RESULTS

This team is lacking heart & grit. This team is lacking competitiveness. They need to be shown the way.

That's all I care about right now because it's the one thing that holds this team back.

[KoZed]

I believe Lapierre is slowly cutting his way into the leadership group currently shared by Koivu, Kovalev, Higgins, Komisarek, and Markov.

I'd take the A off all of them except Komisarek.

Higgins? He's got work ethics and he's good when it's time to say the "right things" in the locker after the game. That's about where it starts and ends. Being invisible for long stretches at a time sort of hampers your credibility.

Kovalev? Do we really need to explain it? He can be inspiring and take over a game when it's crunch time, like a real skilled leader should. But he only does it when the planets are aligned, never game after game after game. Not a good example.

Markov? Hey, I love him as a player, one of the top D's in the league and extremely consistent. But he's also as emotionally flat as they come. Pre-season or playoffs, it's about the same for him.

Komisarek is the only guy on that group that really embodies the emotion, competitiveness and HATE OF LOSING this team sorely lack.

By competitiveness, I mean that you'll one-up the opposition every step of the way and never give an inch unless you're willing to take two back. And it has to show, everybody on the ice has to know you're gonna fight to the death.

Coaching staff should make a video of the best Komisarek moments from the past year and a half and show it to the rest of the team.

And Lapierre could get an A if he keeps it up. There's another of the few guys playing with emotion on this team. You know, a guy you can throw on the ice when you're down on the scoreboard and you know he'll give you something extra and put it right in the face of the opposition because when you're trailing that's you need.

Wasnt it BGL who said this summer that last year he could elbow Bouillon in the face because because he knew nobody on the Habs would do anything about it? That's what's gotta changed. This team has to stop having this attitude that they'll just keep their head down and try to make it through. They need to start facing the opposition right in the eyes and let them know they're there and won't get out of the way.

[alexstream]

[/b][/u]This team is lacking heart & grit.

That's exactly what I was about to say. I'm bored with this team. To some extent, Gilmour - Zednik - Petrov were more exciting.

[Psycing]

That's exactly what I was about to say. I'm bored with this team. To some extent, Gilmour - Zednik - Petrov were more exciting.

That's one of the best lines I've seen during my lifetime (keep in mind I don't remember the '93 Cup win... lol.

[KoZed]

That's one of the best lines I've seen during my lifetime (keep in mind I don't remember the '93 Cup win... lol.

I wouldnt got that far. You know your team sucks you have to use Patrick Poulin & Craig Darby on your 2nd line.

I do miss Richer-Skrudland-Lemieux or Naslund-Smith-Dahlin from 86; or Damphousse-Muller-Bellows from 93. You know, lines you could count on when the score was tight.

[Psycing]

I wouldnt got that far. You know your team sucks you have to use Patrick Poulin & Craig Darby on your 2nd line.

But that's what I mean. They were one of the best lines of my generation. Last years club, and this years obviously have much better combos, but yeah. Corson - Koivu - Recchi was pretty good too, but hard to remember when at least one of them wasn't injured .