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Peter Puck

The UFA Clean House Challenge

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Is Vinny really worth that contract?

Koivu: 792 NHL games played. 641 points scored.

Lecavalier: 787 NHL games played. 669 points scored.

:o

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Is Vinny really worth that contract?

Koivu: 792 NHL games played. 641 points scored.

Lecavalier: 787 NHL games played. 669 points scored.

:o

It doesn't matter. He's big. As long as he's big, nothing else matters.

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Right, that's all he is, big. The cup doesn't mean anything, he's only big. Zzzz....

Anyway, pipe dream, we won't get him. More interesting would be signing Dubinsky to an offer sheet (overpay) and seeing who we might get as a 1st-line ctr in front of him; then shoring up the d, Komisarek gone, Bouwmeister going to be overpriced...who?

Vet goalie? Can't see the Habs carrying three goalies.

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It doesn't matter. He's big. As long as he's big, nothing else matters.

Plus, and it's a HUGE plus, he speaks French!

Anyway IMO Koivu had his chance, sadly, dunno who to blame, but anyway seems that it's time to turn the page . . .

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BG isn't going to offer anyone an offer sheet. Very few have been done, you think Edmonton wishes they could have a do over?

Vinny won't be here either.

BG needs to find a new coach, assistant coaches with good D coach. This is his top priority. Muller and Jarvis are gone.

The new coach needs to review second half and playoff games and decide who showed up and who didn't. Obviously the the list is much longer of who didn't show up.

Then they need to decide what kind of team they are, watching this year i have no idea. Then go make some offers starting with Sedins, Boumeester and other top players.

Obviously everyone already knows i want know one resigned. Trade Plaeks if you can get equal numbers coming back.

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Equal numbers won't be hard to find with Plex! There's a couple of forwards in the Nepalese league I've heard...

Maybe it is time he considered an offer sheet then? Since everything else has worked so beautifully. Marquee UFA's like Boumeester and Sedins haven't exactly been a strong point for Bob.

I think they need to decide what kind of team they want to be. Dumping every FA would certainly make the slate cleaner.

What will happen to Don Lever? Be a bit much to dump him back to Hamilton, no?

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I'll say Harley gets head coach, Lever gets 1 assistant job and hopefully some who can teach the D to skate, pass the puck, win a battle, stop backing in on top of your goalie, things like that.

Too much class for BG to make offer sheets.

He'll have to do some better persuading on UFA's and put a better product on the ice.

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Dumping every FA would certainly make the slate cleaner.

And completely destroy everything the organization has built in the last 5 years. What a great plan.

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Too much class for BG to make offer sheets.

You're probably right, but I hope that's not the case. I'd love it for Bob to poach a key player away from Boston.

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Poaching is not gonna happen. Gainey has too much class. Besides that, the minute he does it, get ready for Price to be poached the second he's eligible. Forget it.

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Poaching is not gonna happen. Gainey has too much class. Besides that, the minute he does it, get ready for Price to be poached the second he's eligible. Forget it.

If you make it a point to sign key players you want to keep before they reach RFA status, rather than waiting til the summer like an idiot and gambling, you don't have to worry about poaching. Simple fix, don't you think?

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If you make it a point to sign key players you want to keep before they reach RFA status, rather than waiting til the summer like an idiot and gambling, you don't have to worry about poaching. Simple fix, don't you think?

Well, I don't think Gainey's supposed policy is 'idiotic.' There are good reasons for it. You only have to look at the savings we've likely bagged vis-a-vis Higgins and Plekanec, compared to what we'd be paying if we re-upped them last season, to see the basic sense in it. Having said that, I agree that we really should be proactive when it comes to signing really core parts of your lineup. For instance, we probably *should* have signed Komisarek last season, or at least tried to, especially since he will end up overpaid no mattyer what happens.

(Then again, Komisarek himself said he didn't think it would be fair to sign certain RFAs/UFAs before or during a season while letting others flap in the wind. That's something else to consider. The damage done to a team culture by re-signing certain players and letting others run out their contracts can be at least as significant as the damage done by waiting until all their contracts expire before re-signing them. On the former scenario, some players are clearly favoured over others, and the passed-over players are liable to stew in resetnment. On the latter scenario, everyone is in the same boat, but it can become a distraction. This is what irks me about a lot of criticism of Gainey; it's so easy to just focus on what's wrong with his approach, without considering what's wrong with alternative approaches).

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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I wouldn't sweat about the Bruins poaching back. They are in cap trouble coming up, and there is no logical reason for them to poach Price from us considering they have their goaltending settled for the present and future, with a lot of money invested in that. Boston simply does not have cap room. That's an asset for us vs. them. I don't see what class has to do with it.

Whether Krejci or Kessel would want to sign a deal with the Habs is another matter. Or, conversely, how these players would deal with being high salaried players, with tons of pressure on them, in a very demanding market. If Kessel or Krejci were to slump (and they likely would at some point)... how would they react to the catcalls?

San Jose has a couple of less sexy RFA's in Clowe and Mitchell that might be worth looking at as well. They don't have a lot of cap room to wiggle around, either.

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Well, I don't think Gainey's supposed policy is 'idiotic.' There are good reasons for it. You only have to look at the savings we've likely bagged vis-a-vis Higgins and Plekanec, compared to what we'd be paying if we re-upped them last season, to see the basic sense in it. Having said that, I agree that we really should be proactive when it comes to signing really core parts of your lineup. For instance, we probably *should* have signed Komisarek last season, or at least tried to, especially since he will end up overpaid no mattyer what happens.

(Then again, Komisarek himself said he didn't think it would be fair to sign certain RFAs/UFAs before or during a season while letting others flap in the wind. That's something else to consider. The damage done to a team culture by re-signing certain players and letting others run out their contracts can be at least as significant as the damage done by waiting until all their contracts expire before re-signing them. On the former scenario, some players are clearly favoured over others, and the passed-over players are liable to stew in resetnment. On the latter scenario, everyone is in the same boat, but it can become a distraction. This is what irks me about a lot of criticism of Gainey; it's so easy to just focus on what's wrong with his approach, without considering what's wrong with alternative approaches).

Your example with Plex and Higgins only applies because they both played like total dogsh*t this year. If they had put up similar numbers we'd be paying through the nose for them or else losing them for nothing (Hi, Souray, Ryder, Streit). Bob's policy is lovey-dovey with the team but it places him squarly behind the 8-ball once the season ends. If your guys play well, better open the wallet because all 29 other GMs can read numbers too. And if they've played like horsesh*t, good luck getting anything tangible for them from anyone else.

Explain to me again how his system helps the team in any meaningful way?

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And completely destroy everything the organization has built in the last 5 years. What a great plan.

Not my idea, relax.

Lock up your core earlier, don't let them get to the point to test the waters, see Markov.

RFA are such for a reason.

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Your example with Plex and Higgins only applies because they both played like total dogsh*t this year. If they had put up similar numbers we'd be paying through the nose for them or else losing them for nothing (Hi, Souray, Ryder, Streit). Bob's policy is lovey-dovey with the team but it places him squarly behind the 8-ball once the season ends. If your guys play well, better open the wallet because all 29 other GMs can read numbers too. And if they've played like horsesh*t, good luck getting anything tangible for them from anyone else.

Explain to me again how his system helps the team in any meaningful way?

Gainey said somewhere or other that the fairest thing to do with young players is let them play out their contract and then try to re-sign them. That way, the organization doesn't unfairly lock them in long-term at a discount - not fair to the player - and the organization doesn't get burned overpaying for a 25-year-old player who is destined to regress after one hot season. The assumption is that the older a player is, the clearer a sense one acquires of what that player can be expected to produce on an annual basis; so the fairest thing for everybody is to avoid making premature decisions on this front.

This seems entirely sensible to me.

I also see the wisdom of the other side, which is that a team should move to lock in a small number of core players 'prematurely' (by this definition). Ideally, after last season, for instance, we'd have moved to lock up Komisarek, but not Higgins or Plekanec. There again, you risk sowing discord in the room; but it might be a risk worth taking. And if you over-estimate a player's longer-term value, you're just as screwed as if you under-estimated it and lose him as a UFA.

Both approaches are legitimate. Attacking Gainey for this nicely fits the 'Gainey is a moron' narrative that's been developing this season. But other than that it's unfair.

Incidentally, you use the Markov example. In fact that's EXACTLY what Gainey did. He re-signed Markov in 2005 to a 2-year deal as an RFA. Then, when that contract expired, he locked him up for four years before he hit the market as a UFA.

I don't hear anyone complaining...not Markov, not the fans, not the organization. That is the model Gainey is now applying to the rest of the squad. The Markov example should be cited in DEFENCE of Bob's approach, not against it.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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I think, though, that differences have to be drawn between your elite core of the team, who should be guarded and re-signed early, and the role players, who have long since accepted that this is their respective lot. Identify the core. Probably a big part of the problem, that.

And if the role players are unhappy, then the more secure core players can take them for dinner at Moishe's.

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Gainey said somewhere or other that the fairest thing to do with young players is let them play out their contract and then try to re-sign them. That way, the organization doesn't unfairly lock them in long-term at a discount - not fair to the player - and the organization doesn't get burned overpaying for a 25-year-old player who is destined to regress after one hot season. The assumption is that the older a player is, the clearer a sense one acquires of what that player can be expected to produce on an annual basis; so the fairest thing for everybody is to avoid making premature decisions on this front.

This seems entirely sensible to me.

I also see the wisdom of the other side, which is that a team should move to lock in a small number of core players 'prematurely' (by this definition). Ideally, after last season, for instance, we'd have moved to lock up Komisarek, but not Higgins or Plekanec. There again, you risk sowing discord in the room; but it might be a risk worth taking. And if you over-estimate a player's longer-term value, you're just as screwed as if you under-estimated it and lose him as a UFA.

Both approaches are legitimate. Attacking Gainey for this nicely fits the 'Gainey is a moron' narrative that's been developing this season. But other than that it's unfair.

Incidentally, you use the Markov example. In fact that's EXACTLY what Gainey did. He re-signed Markov in 2005 to a 2-year deal as an RFA. Then, when that contract expired, he locked him up for four years before he hit the market as a UFA.

I don't hear anyone complaining...not Markov, not the fans, not the organization. That is the model Gainey is now applying to the rest of the squad. The Markov example should be cited in DEFENCE of Bob's approach, not against it.

Why fight it?

While all the fans panic and regurgitate what the media tells them, why expect somebody to spend time

forming original thoughts?

I am totally fine with Gainey not locking our cap into Lecavalier/insert overpaid UFA here with a cap that may drop

$7-8M. I could care less if this team was fighting for 8th again because I am not interested in satisfying a fanbase

that thinks about the last 5 minutes and the next 5 minutes.

What if Gainey decides to leave himself some flexibility for 2011 and the cap does drop to $48M.

The Bruins are locked into $30M for 7 players (18M for 16 players)

The Flyers are locked into $42M for 13 players with no goaltender or Coburn. (6M for 10 players)

The Flames are locked into $37M for 13 players (11M for 10 players)

The Hawks are locked into $25M for 6 players and need to lock up Versteeg, Kane, Toews, Barker and Keith

The Wings are locked into $38M for 12 players (10M for 11 players)

The Oilers are locked into $39M for 12 players and no goalie and no Gagner or Cogliano (9M for 10 players)

The Devils are locked into $33M for 10 players (15M for 13 players)

The Rangers are locked into $36M for 8 players (12M for 15 players)

The Senators are locked into $39M for 9 players (9M for 14 players)

The Pens are locked into $34M for 10 players (14M for 13 players)

So what does this tell us? It tells me that

A. A ton of teams are likely to be dumping players to get under the cap

B. Any free agents that are available in Summer 2010...cough cough Nash, Kovalchuk will be out of range for

1/3 of the league and likely the small market teams, meaning that they can be had at either a cheaper price

or the Canadiens can be players in the market.

Think ahead, not behind. Players that you may not anticipate springing lose may appear either next season

or summer because of cap concerns. Why lock in your second choice this season? So they can hover around .500 again?

So they can skimp into the playoffs and then sitback as the Leafs pick up bargains because they have cap space?

Overreacting to a situation NEVER leads you to sound decisions. Winning the PR war last summer got the Habs where exactly?

It got them on the cover of magazines and broadcasts and a first round sweep.

Why regurgitate first level thought? Why assimilate to the belief that Gainey is a fool brought forth by those

who hailed him as a genius 4 months ago? Does that make any sense? Why string up a 21 year old kid because

the unintelligent mass has come to that simplistic conclusion? History has taught us that angry mobs have usually

lead to productive results. :rolleyes:

It is what it is. Sit back and watch the rioters loot and run around like crazed animals demanding change, then sit back

next season and watch the same buffoons riot and loot over the decisions they wanted the year before.

Anybody who posted on this board that the moves Gainey made in the summer were stupid and would lead to the

disaster at hand, kudos to you. As far as I am concerned, you have free reign to rip him a new asshole.

Everybody else, shut up, because nobody wants to hear about a crystal ball that views the past.

Edited by Wamsley01

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Why fight it?

While all the fans panic and regurgitate what the media tells them, why expect somebody to spend time

forming original thoughts?

I am totally fine with Gainey not locking our cap into Lecavalier/insert overpaid UFA here with a cap that may drop

$7-8M. I could care less if this team was fighting for 8th again because I am not interested in satisfying a fanbase

that thinks about the last 5 minutes and the next 5 minutes.

What if Gainey decides to leave himself some flexibility for 2011 and the cap does drop to $48M.

The Bruins are locked into $30M for 7 players (18M for 16 players)

The Flyers are locked into $42M for 13 players with no goaltender or Coburn. (6M for 10 players)

The Flames are locked into $37M for 13 players (11M for 10 players)

The Hawks are locked into $25M for 6 players and need to lock up Versteeg, Kane, Toews, Barker and Keith

The Wings are locked into $38M for 12 players (10M for 11 players)

The Oilers are locked into $39M for 12 players and no goalie and no Gagner or Cogliano (9M for 10 players)

The Devils are locked into $33M for 10 players (15M for 13 players)

The Rangers are locked into $36M for 8 players (12M for 15 players)

The Senators are locked into $39M for 9 players (9M for 14 players)

The Pens are locked into $34M for 10 players (14M for 13 players)

So what does this tell us? It tells me that

A. A ton of teams are likely to be dumping players to get under the cap

B. Any free agents that are available in Summer 2010...cough cough Nash, Kovalchuk will be out of range for

1/3 of the league and likely the small market teams, meaning that they can be had at either a cheaper price

or the Canadiens can be players in the market.

Think ahead, not behind. Players that you may not anticipate springing lose may appear either next season

or summer because of cap concerns. Why lock in your second choice this season? So they can hover around .500 again?

So they can skimp into the playoffs and then sitback as the Leafs pick up bargains because they have cap space?

Overreacting to a situation NEVER leads you to sound decisions. Winning the PR war last summer got the Habs where exactly?

It got them on the cover of magazines and broadcasts and a first round sweep.

Why regurgitate first level thought? Why assimilate to the belief that Gainey is a fool brought forth by those

who hailed him as a genius 4 months ago? Does that make any sense? Why string up a 21 year old kid because

the unintelligent mass has come to that simplistic conclusion? History has taught us that angry mobs have usually

lead to productive results. :rolleyes:

It is what it is. Sit back and watch the rioters loot and run around like crazed animals demanding change, then sit back

next season and watch the same buffoons riot and loot over the decisions they wanted the year before.

Anybody who posted on this board that the moves Gainey made in the summer were stupid and would lead to the

disaster at hand, kudos to you. As far as I am concerned, you have free reign to rip him a new asshole.

Everybody else, shut up, because nobody wants to hear about a crystal ball that views the past.

This is exactly why we desperately need Gainey to continue on.

We have some very tricky ground to navigate this summer for the future. Despite his mistakes, Gainey is our best hope.

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Is Vinny really worth that contract?

Koivu: 792 NHL games played. 641 points scored.

Lecavalier: 787 NHL games played. 669 points scored.

:o

Aye but Koivu has reached his peak and is career will just go downhill as Vinny still has many many more years in his peak to go in his carreer...so the average that looks comparable atm will just get bigger and bigger with years to come in my mind.

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Aye but Koivu has reached his peak and is career will just go downhill as Vinny still has many many more years in his peak to go in his carreer...so the average that looks comparable atm will just get bigger and bigger with years to come in my mind.

Big gamble at his price point.

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Why fight it?

While all the fans panic and regurgitate what the media tells them, why expect somebody to spend time

forming original thoughts?

I am totally fine with Gainey not locking our cap into Lecavalier/insert overpaid UFA here with a cap that may drop

$7-8M. I could care less if this team was fighting for 8th again because I am not interested in satisfying a fanbase

that thinks about the last 5 minutes and the next 5 minutes.

What if Gainey decides to leave himself some flexibility for 2011 and the cap does drop to $48M.

The Bruins are locked into $30M for 7 players (18M for 16 players)

The Flyers are locked into $42M for 13 players with no goaltender or Coburn. (6M for 10 players)

The Flames are locked into $37M for 13 players (11M for 10 players)

The Hawks are locked into $25M for 6 players and need to lock up Versteeg, Kane, Toews, Barker and Keith

The Wings are locked into $38M for 12 players (10M for 11 players)

The Oilers are locked into $39M for 12 players and no goalie and no Gagner or Cogliano (9M for 10 players)

The Devils are locked into $33M for 10 players (15M for 13 players)

The Rangers are locked into $36M for 8 players (12M for 15 players)

The Senators are locked into $39M for 9 players (9M for 14 players)

The Pens are locked into $34M for 10 players (14M for 13 players)

So what does this tell us? It tells me that

A. A ton of teams are likely to be dumping players to get under the cap

B. Any free agents that are available in Summer 2010...cough cough Nash, Kovalchuk will be out of range for

1/3 of the league and likely the small market teams, meaning that they can be had at either a cheaper price

or the Canadiens can be players in the market.

Think ahead, not behind. Players that you may not anticipate springing lose may appear either next season

or summer because of cap concerns. Why lock in your second choice this season? So they can hover around .500 again?

So they can skimp into the playoffs and then sitback as the Leafs pick up bargains because they have cap space?

Overreacting to a situation NEVER leads you to sound decisions. Winning the PR war last summer got the Habs where exactly?

It got them on the cover of magazines and broadcasts and a first round sweep.

Why regurgitate first level thought? Why assimilate to the belief that Gainey is a fool brought forth by those

who hailed him as a genius 4 months ago? Does that make any sense? Why string up a 21 year old kid because

the unintelligent mass has come to that simplistic conclusion? History has taught us that angry mobs have usually

lead to productive results. :rolleyes:

It is what it is. Sit back and watch the rioters loot and run around like crazed animals demanding change, then sit back

next season and watch the same buffoons riot and loot over the decisions they wanted the year before.

Anybody who posted on this board that the moves Gainey made in the summer were stupid and would lead to the

disaster at hand, kudos to you. As far as I am concerned, you have free reign to rip him a new asshole.

Everybody else, shut up, because nobody wants to hear about a crystal ball that views the past.

I agree with this powerful analysis. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will be possible even for Gainey to resist the pressure to do something significant this off-season, beyond just re-signing as many RFAs/UFAs as he can and hiring a new coach and generally tinkering with the roster (or conceivably even losing veterans to free agency and replacing them from within in a 'rebuilding' year). Waiting out next season, keeping lots of cap flexibility, allowing a new coach to install a system and then pouncing when other teams start to shed salary - that's a great plan, and you might have been able to sell it had we gone deep. But after this disastrous season it would be overwhelmingly opposed by a frothing-mad fan and media base, and could prove hard to sell to new ownership to boot, who will probably want some visible sign of their 'stamp' on the team (assuming they even keep Gainey). My guess is that Gainey will find himself in a position where he *has* to try something, whether it's a trade for Jordan Staal, or signing Cammalleri or Bouwmeester.

(Unless Gilett doesn't sell, in which case he will likely stand by any move Gainey makes to keep salary costs down ^_^ This is one time when a skinflint owner might be just thing thing).

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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I agree with this powerful analysis. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will be possible even for Gainey to resist the pressure to do something significant this off-season, beyond just re-signing as many RFAs/UFAs as he can and hiring a new coach and generally tinkering with the roster (or conceivably even losing veterans to free agency and replacing them from within in a 'rebuilding' year). Waiting out next season, keeping lots of cap flexibility, allowing a new coach to install a system and then pouncing when other teams start to shed salary - that's a great plan, and you might have been able to sell it had we gone deep. But after this disastrous season it would be overwhelmingly opposed by a frothing-mad fan and media base, and could prove hard to sell to new ownership to boot, who will probably want some visible sign of their 'stamp' on the team (assuming they even keep Gainey). My guess is that Gainey will find himself in a position where he *has* to try something, whether it's a trade for Jordan Staal, or signing Cammalleri or Bouwmeester.

(Unless Gilett doesn't sell, in which case he will likely stand by any move Gainey makes to keep salary costs down ^_^ This is one time when a skinflint owner might be just thing thing).

That is my biggest fear. The opportunity exists for a changing of the guard if Gainey

remains patient. Franchises that listen to their fans are rarely successful.

The Leafs are going to just pilfer the market in the summer of 2010 and are set for success

because the fanbase will not be angry should Burke do nothing this summer.

The Habs can be right there with them, but the idiotic media can't see past the end

of their nose. Their world is so insular, they talk to the same people over and over

and the inside info they receive is dated, so by the time they begin to realize that

standing pat is the best move this summer, the Habs will be locked into some stupid

contract that the media pressured them into. Then they are going to see the logic

and at this point, those who decided to remain patient will feed the press their inside view.

Result - Press begins to call Gainey a damn fool for using up his cap space when

the answer was patience! It is a HUGE summer in the future of this franchise and

all the talking heads are looking to amputate when a band aid is needed.

I am very nervous.

Edited by Wamsley01

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That is my biggest fear. The opportunity exists for a changing of the guard if Gainey

remains patient. Franchises that listen to their fans are rarely successful.

The Leafs are going to just pilfer the market in the summer of 2010 and are set for success

because the fanbase will not be angry should Burke do nothing this summer.

The Habs can be right there with them, but the idiotic media can't see past the end

of their nose. Their world is so insular, they talk to the same people over and over

and the inside info they receive is dated, so by the time they begin to realize that

standing pat is the best move this summer, the Habs will be locked into some stupid

contract that the media pressured them into. Then they are going to see the logic

and at this point, those who decided to remain patient will feed the press their inside view.

Result - Press begins to call Gainey a damn fool for using up his cap space when

the answer was patience! It is a HUGE summer in the future of this franchise and

all the talking heads are looking to amputate when a band aid is needed.

I am very nervous.

You think BG can cave under pressure?

his appreciation rate is 35% right now (% of 550 dofus contacted by le journal) for that exact reason :

he didn't cave under pressure.

Andre Savard used to cave under pressure.

BG has no fear besides what's commonly called "the fear of Chuck Norris".

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That is my biggest fear. The opportunity exists for a changing of the guard if Gainey

remains patient. Franchises that listen to their fans are rarely successful.

The Leafs are going to just pilfer the market in the summer of 2010 and are set for success

because the fanbase will not be angry should Burke do nothing this summer.

The Habs can be right there with them, but the idiotic media can't see past the end

of their nose. Their world is so insular, they talk to the same people over and over

and the inside info they receive is dated, so by the time they begin to realize that

standing pat is the best move this summer, the Habs will be locked into some stupid

contract that the media pressured them into. Then they are going to see the logic

and at this point, those who decided to remain patient will feed the press their inside view.

Result - Press begins to call Gainey a damn fool for using up his cap space when

the answer was patience! It is a HUGE summer in the future of this franchise and

all the talking heads are looking to amputate when a band aid is needed.

I am very nervous.

I agree. Taking on a contract like Lecavalier's with a cap drop coming will pretty much doom the Habs to an era of mediocrity....Vinny just isn't good enough to justify that big a number. The cap makes for a very unforgiving environment; you can't spend your way out of trouble anymore, you can't unload guys with big contracts because nobody has the cap space to absorb them, having draft picks pan out is more important than ever, and timing is everything.

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