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Random baseball questions:

1) Looking at this thread... what the hell are some of these pitching statistics: SHO, WHIP, CG, BB?

2) What is a balk?

3) Why do people watch baseball? It seems like analyzing the stats is 10x more fun than watching the games.

SHO - shut-outs

CG - Complete Games

WHIP - Walks + Hits per inning pitched

BB - Bases on Balls (ie. a walk)

Stats are just the metrics people use to measure performance.

You can't improve what you can't/don't measure.

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ERA, WHIP, CG's, SHO, W's are the most indicative categories to a pitchers influence on a team or game. The fact Halladay had so many W's, CG's and SHO's on so many crap teams is impressive to say the least. Santana's ERA and WHIP numbers are also impressive even with a good team around him and the fact he typically had the edge in park factors, team defence, etc.

no way. SHO is a streak stat. As CG and W are so team dependent it means that we should be very cautious before using them to support any argument.

ERA is a decent but significantly flawed stat. WHIP is pretty damn good.

DERA is pretty decent, as is pitcher VORP. VORP, WHIP, K/9 and BB/9 are prolly most indicative of a pitcher's ability.

I don't really care about santana v. halladay, but if you care about quality of opponents, look here http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/s....php?cid=313111

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no way. SHO is a streak stat. As CG and W are so team dependent it means that we should be very cautious before using them to support any argument.

ERA is a decent but significantly flawed stat. WHIP is pretty damn good.

DERA is pretty decent, as is pitcher VORP. VORP, WHIP, K/9 and BB/9 are prolly most indicative of a pitcher's ability.

I don't really care about santana v. halladay, but if you care about quality of opponents, look here http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/s....php?cid=313111

Yeah have to agree about those stats. Not a big fan of looking at W or SHO in either hockey or baseball.

My favourite stat for a pitcher has to be K/BB. IMO if you can make people miss and let your defense make plays for you, you are going to have a ton of success. It's one reason I didn't believe Dice K's numbers last year, and eventually I expect him to regress to a high 3s ERA, unless he somehow works out his control issues.

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no way. SHO is a streak stat. As CG and W are so team dependent it means that we should be very cautious before using them to support any argument.

ERA is a decent but significantly flawed stat. WHIP is pretty damn good.

DERA is pretty decent, as is pitcher VORP. VORP, WHIP, K/9 and BB/9 are prolly most indicative of a pitcher's ability.

I don't really care about santana v. halladay, but if you care about quality of opponents, look here http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/s....php?cid=313111

Explain to me how SHO is a "streak" stat...please don't give me a definition that is simply built to fit the argument of "just because he pitched 9 scoreless innings in a row it shouldn't be called a shut-out because he could have pitched 4 scoreless to close one game and 5 scoreless to start another"...because I'll break it down now, each game, whereby a pitcher begins with a "fresh arm" must be treated as an independant sample within the larger set. So throwing 9 scoreless innings, from the beginning of a game, IS indicative of a pitchers influence on A game...which again was what my comment was related to.

CG is NOT team dependant...the only way a pitcher gets to throw a complete game is if he's thrown a small enough pitches per inning productively to get through the 9th inning without being yanked. Not sure how you can claim it's a team based stat. It doesn't even typically matter what the score is if a pitcher has thrown well all game they are typically left in to complete it.

W's is certainly team based BUT I also said it was among the most indicative stats with regards to a pitchers influence on a game...if a pitcher does not pitch well the team will not win likely 90% of the time.

ERA and WHIP are also likely the two best "mainstream" indicators being used thanks to fantasy baseball. The reason I said those stats show Halladay dominates more hitters is because I think there are a lot of factors affecting ERA that weren't reflected in their data, such as opposition, park factors...and some that aren't reflected in any adjusted stats (to my knowledge) such as when a guy has a 6 run lead and a couple runners on, they may let a run come in if it get's them an out (ie. still look for GB when runners on 1st and 3rd and nobody out)...while they may not in a tight game. MAYBE that comes out in the wash, but I suspect Halladay has those leads more often then Santana BECAUSE of the other stats such as SHO's, CG's, HR/9 and BB/9...

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Explain to me how SHO is a "streak" stat...please don't give me a definition that is simply built to fit the argument of "just because he pitched 9 scoreless innings in a row it shouldn't be called a shut-out because he could have pitched 4 scoreless to close one game and 5 scoreless to start another"...because I'll break it down now, each game, whereby a pitcher begins with a "fresh arm" must be treated as an independant sample within the larger set. So throwing 9 scoreless innings, from the beginning of a game, IS indicative of a pitchers influence on A game...which again was what my comment was related to.

CG is NOT team dependant...the only way a pitcher gets to throw a complete game is if he's thrown a small enough pitches per inning productively to get through the 9th inning without being yanked. Not sure how you can claim it's a team based stat. It doesn't even typically matter what the score is if a pitcher has thrown well all game they are typically left in to complete it.

W's is certainly team based BUT I also said it was among the most indicative stats with regards to a pitchers influence on a game...if a pitcher does not pitch well the team will not win likely 90% of the time.

ERA and WHIP are also likely the two best "mainstream" indicators being used thanks to fantasy baseball. The reason I said those stats show Halladay dominates more hitters is because I think there are a lot of factors affecting ERA that weren't reflected in their data, such as opposition, park factors...and some that aren't reflected in any adjusted stats (to my knowledge) such as when a guy has a 6 run lead and a couple runners on, they may let a run come in if it get's them an out (ie. still look for GB when runners on 1st and 3rd and nobody out)...while they may not in a tight game. MAYBE that comes out in the wash, but I suspect Halladay has those leads more often then Santana BECAUSE of the other stats such as SHO's, CG's, HR/9 and BB/9...

SHO is a streak stat because it gives a pitcher credit for inconsistency. It obscures a season's worth of rate data by focusing on a pitcher's good days. It's like saying "this hitter had 10 3-hit games", or "in games he wins, Pitcher X has an ERA of 1.10". Sure, a player that has a lot of SHO's is probably very good and has a good ERA or WHIP, or K/BB (which is a great stat), but SHO doesn't really help you find that out. SHO is a symptom of good play, and like many symptoms, need not always occur in connection with the cause. I want to see a stat that shows a how a pitcher does on his good AND bad days.

Also, SHO overrates the value of giving up 0 runs. Giving up 0 runs is not incredibly better than giving up 1 run. A pitcher who only gives up 1 run over 9 innings wins ~97/100, a pitcher who gives up 0 runs wins 100/100. Why don't you use a 1RA stat in addition to SHO? Why not a 2RA (which is also pretty good) stat? Why not just look at the average rate that the pitcher gives up hits/runs.

gotta go work now, I'll cover CG and W later.

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A pitcher who only gives up 1 run over 9 innings wins ~97/100, a pitcher who gives up 0 runs wins 100/100.

Not true. Only a pitcher throwing a CGSO wins 100/100. Nine innings of shutout baseball does not, necessarily, mean his team has won the game. That would not discount the possibility of both pitchers giving up 0 runs in 9 innings in the same game. ;)

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Pitch control. Placement. All those things you can't put into a stat. Maddux was the best pitcher in baseball for ages because he out-smarted most of the hitters. A fastball guy can blow them by you over and over - until their arm blows out. Add to that the fact that they generally cost you more in contract because they're more "visible", and it's not worth it, IMO.

Carpenter has some oomph, but he can also pitch. He's not just a hurler. I'm not saying Santana can't pitch, but he's not at the level of control of Carpenter as I see it.

This post will now open another Pandora's Box.

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Pitch control. Placement. All those things you can't put into a stat. Maddux was the best pitcher in baseball for ages because he out-smarted most of the hitters. A fastball guy can blow them by you over and over - until their arm blows out. Add to that the fact that they generally cost you more in contract because they're more "visible", and it's not worth it, IMO.

Carpenter has some oomph, but he can also pitch. He's not just a hurler. I'm not saying Santana can't pitch, but he's not at the level of control of Carpenter as I see it.

This post will now open another Pandora's Box.

Santana is much more than a power pitcher, though. Yes, he has a great fastball, but he also has a nasty slider and one of the best change-ups in baseball. Having a 95 MPH fastball is great, but what makes him successful is his 75 MPH change-up that he throws with a very similar grip and the same speed and arm motion. Power doesn't make a pitcher automatically good, you've still gotta have control and a couple other pitches.

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Go Jays ! :clap:

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obviously one should never put too much emphasis on a single game, but it might be interesting for some of y'all to take a look at what Santana can do to the Red Sox tonight.

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obviously one should never put too much emphasis on a single game, but it might be interesting for some of y'all to take a look at what Santana can do to the Red Sox tonight.

Good outing, but also look at what Doc did against the Braves...

By the way the wheels are completely falling off the Jays. I continued to maintain that our hot start wouldn't last but I didn't think it would happen so fast. We'll see if they can get going again, as it has only been four games, but I won't be holding my breath.

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Good outing, but also look at what Doc did against the Braves...

By the way the wheels are completely falling off the Jays. I continued to maintain that our hot start wouldn't last but I didn't think it would happen so fast. We'll see if they can get going again, as it has only been four games, but I won't be holding my breath.

Jays never seem to do well in inter-league play, especially in NL parks...and their play has carried them through a quarter of the season which is FAR longer then I had expected. Hopefully they can turn it around but I won't hold my breath just yet.

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Fan fight at Phillies-Jays game :lol: :lol: :lol:

Even chicks got into it

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Disgusting colours match.

277802_resize.jpg

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SHO is a streak stat because it gives a pitcher credit for inconsistency. It obscures a season's worth of rate data by focusing on a pitcher's good days. It's like saying "this hitter had 10 3-hit games", or "in games he wins, Pitcher X has an ERA of 1.10". Sure, a player that has a lot of SHO's is probably very good and has a good ERA or WHIP, or K/BB (which is a great stat), but SHO doesn't really help you find that out. SHO is a symptom of good play, and like many symptoms, need not always occur in connection with the cause. I want to see a stat that shows a how a pitcher does on his good AND bad days.

Also, SHO overrates the value of giving up 0 runs. Giving up 0 runs is not incredibly better than giving up 1 run. A pitcher who only gives up 1 run over 9 innings wins ~97/100, a pitcher who gives up 0 runs wins 100/100. Why don't you use a 1RA stat in addition to SHO? Why not a 2RA (which is also pretty good) stat? Why not just look at the average rate that the pitcher gives up hits/runs.

gotta go work now, I'll cover CG and W later.

Somehow missed this response...apologies...

SHO does not give credit for inconsistency...I do see your point about how it MAY obscure other data but it also depends on IF the person interpreting the data chooses to ignore it. The number of SHO's a guy throws is really an indicator of consistency IMO...more SHO's means they are on top of their game more often.

Yes, I also realise that 1 run also results in a high percentage of wins...and even simply looking at QS may be another stat worth reviewing. While I don't mind the QS stat I'm not as big a fan as something that seems a little more pure (like SHO's).

In the end, a guy who consistently throws CG's and SHO's more often then another pitcher is likely someone who is more dependable, more often. Halladay exemplifies this statistically and anecdotally.

I'm pretty sure where you'd go with W's...and I won't argue much there other then to say that, when comparing Halladay and Santana, it's clear Halladay played on a worse team, and appeared in 30 less games to get 10 more wins then Santana.

It would be interesting to hear what GM's, scouts and managers would say on these two pitchers.

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Rolen traded to the Reds for 3B Edwin Encarnacion, RP Josh Roenicke, and pitching prospect Zach Stewart. No problem getting rid of Edwin, he's a bum. Roenicke has looked like a solid pitcher, he should be good for the Jays bullpen. Don't know much about Stewart, his A and AA stats this year look solid. Can't understand why the Reds are bringing in all that salary when they're out of the race, though.

Peavy to the White Sox.

Victor Martinez to the Red Sox.

Both winners there.

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I love the V-Mart deal and I honestly would've made all prospects available to get Hallday. Buchholz, Bard, Bowden, Westmoreland. He's a guy I would've done anything for. Penny and Smoltz are both brutal right now.

Anyone see what the Padres were asking for in return for Gonzalez from the Sox? It was getting crazy.

Kotchman deal seems kind of pointless.

(Oh, and I'm sick of that damn 2003 list popping up every few months. Just release the whole thing and get it over with)

Edited by jetsniper

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I saw my first ballgame in about 20 years in SD. Beautiful park. Absolutely gorgeous. And you know at night how, in most places, they have about twenty gazillion bugs flying around the lights at night? Three moths in the whole stadium. Unfrikkinbelievable.

Oh, and the game was pretty good too. Decent pitching which made me happy, along with a couple of dandy defensive plays. And one real bonehead one. Which made me laugh and miss the next two batters. SS missed the first baseman by a mile. Almost literally.

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by late august, citifield will become a mausaleum as the mets become more and more irrelevant. totally dismal.here in south florida, the marlins are playing good ball. no one comes to the games.....well there are some fabulous latina women that attend, but for the most part the stands are empty.

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Rather than start a new thread for this season, may as well just carry on the old one.

The big story of the day is that MLB is considering overturning umpire Jim Joyce's call that cost Armando Galarraga a perfect game in the 9th last night. This would open a new can of worms, that's for sure.

The underlying story in this is that this was essentially the 3rd perfect game in a 6 week span - before this year, there were only 18 in league history. Why the sudden jump?

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Rather than start a new thread for this season, may as well just carry on the old one.

The big story of the day is that MLB is considering overturning umpire Jim Joyce's call that cost Armando Galarraga a perfect game in the 9th last night. This would open a new can of worms, that's for sure.

The underlying story in this is that this was essentially the 3rd perfect game in a 6 week span - before this year, there were only 18 in league history. Why the sudden jump?

This was one of the worst call in the history of baseball. DISGUSTING. Not even close to be safe, ESPECIALLY for a perfect game.

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This was one of the worst call in the history of baseball. DISGUSTING. Not even close to be safe, ESPECIALLY for a perfect game.

I can sympathize with the umpire a bit (I was a certified ump for about 5 years); without being able to slow it down, it was a bang bang play. That being said, I'd have given the pitcher the benefit of the doubt in that situation. I certainly appreciate how both sides have handled it, with all of the negativity surrounding umpires recently, it's nice to see one fess up and admit the mistake and make a point of running down the hall to apologize as soon as he saw he'd made the wrong call.

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Ya I live not too far from Detroit and this is still a big deal. It will be a story for years to come. Really too bad since it has never happened in Tigers history. General Motors did give him a free vehicle though.

Edited by Habsfan84

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Platinum Sombrero for Mark Teixeira today against the Jays :lol:

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