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simonus

Oh No! How can we indoctrinate our children if you educate them?

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The main problem here is mentioned in the article, the fact that the teachers weren't properly trained to teach the class. I love the idea of such a course, but you have to be careful about it. I mean, anyone properly trained in the course would not teach it in such a way that kids would think becoming Hindu automatically gives you seven lives. Anyone teaching the class has to avoid commentary and opinion, present the material in a fair manner, and make it clear they are teaching faith and beliefs, not absolute fact.

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Just take religion out of school !!!

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Just take religion out of school !!!

How can you expect people to solve differences if they are uneducated about core beliefs?

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How can you expect people to solve differences if they are uneducated about core beliefs?

because people in conflict have deep beleives that wont be erased by a 2 hours/week course course.

besides, this province is historicaly catholic. if government feels religion has no place in school than all religion should be out.

anyways, there are crybabies everywhere...

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because people in conflict have deep beleives that wont be erased by a 2 hours/week course course.

besides, this province is historicaly catholic. if government feels religion has no place in school than all religion should be out.

anyways, there are crybabies everywhere...

It's not about changing anyone's beliefs, it's about understanding them. Changing anyone's beliefs is the LAST thing such a course would be about.

There are few things worse than ignorance. The only way to counter ignorance is to educate.

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How can you expect people to solve differences if they are uneducated about core beliefs?

One of my favourite classes in college was Classical Myths and Legends. I thoroughly enjoyed watching my professor note the similarities between myths from all over the world to stories from the bible... and then seeing someone put up their hand and say, "But Christianity isn't a myth." The sad look on my teacher is something I won't forget. By the end of the semester, I do believe most of my classmates had a different perspective on their respective religions.

I don't think any church wants an all-encompassing class taught in school. Education of core beliefs doesn't help any singular religion. Solving differences doesn't help any singular religion. I'd argue that education weakens religion, which is why the devoutly faithful aren't really in favour of it.

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How can you expect people to solve differences if they are uneducated about core beliefs?

Any answer I'd try to give about "core beliefs" would not be nicely welcomed.

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The main problem here is mentioned in the article, the fact that the teachers weren't properly trained to teach the class. I love the idea of such a course, but you have to be careful about it. I mean, anyone properly trained in the course would not teach it in such a way that kids would think becoming Hindu automatically gives you seven lives. Anyone teaching the class has to avoid commentary and opinion, present the material in a fair manner, and make it clear they are teaching faith and beliefs, not absolute fact.

kids can get things wrong when they hear a lecture. I have certainly - especially as a young child - completely misunderstood my lesson until I was later disabused of my error.

The great thing about such an error - or indeed with a faithful assimilation of the information - is that it gives a child the chance to have a real discussion about it with his or her parents after school. Instead of Star Academie, the family gets to actually use their brains. The kid can learn that 1) the parents are not all knowing, and 2) the teacher is not all knowing... perhaps the parent can learn something too. These are all valuable results.

EDIT: It should be noted of course, that a Hindu person absolutely believes that a conversion (to whatever degree one can convert) helps one achieve greater incarnations. Imagine the teacher disabusing a Hindu child of such a thought? What would the reaction be then?

Just take religion out of school !!!

EDIT 2: I worry about this question of "proper" training. I wonder what proper training would look like to the protesting parents. Additionally, it seems like there is more concern as to a teacher's ability to teach this course than there is to teach basic science. I have encountered a legion of incompetent teachers (in Quebec and the USA) that teach things that are laughably incorrect and gobbled down whole by their students. Why are we more concerned about this? What is the terrible effect of a teacher accidentally teach the Arian heresy?

because people in conflict have deep beleives that wont be erased by a 2 hours/week course course.

besides, this province is historicaly catholic. if government feels religion has no place in school than all religion should be out.

anyways, there are crybabies everywhere...

but this is taking religion out. This is teaching people to be aware of the world we live in. When we study Hinduism, most of us do not imagine we are learning about the nature of the Universe - we realize that we are learning about the nature of Hindus. The problem that the parents had was not that kids were learning religion, but that they weren't learning the primacy of the religion of their parents. When that aspect of religious education is removed, it is quite a different thing indeed.

I don't think any church wants an all-encompassing class taught in school. Education of core beliefs doesn't help any singular religion. Solving differences doesn't help any singular religion. I'd argue that education weakens religion, which is why the devoutly faithful aren't really in favour of it.

Absolutely. The parents, acting as proxies for their various religious groups were implicitly making that exact argument.

Any answer I'd try to give about "core beliefs" would not be nicely welcomed.

Perhaps not by every member of the board, but the vocal are not necessarily representative of the whole.

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It should be noted of course, that a Hindu person absolutely believes that a conversion (to whatever degree one can convert) helps one achieve greater incarnations. Imagine the teacher disabusing a Hindu child of such a thought? What would the reaction be then?

It's the difference between the teacher saying "Hindu people have multiple lives" and "Hindu people believe they have multiple lives," that sort of thing.

I don't think any church wants an all-encompassing class taught in school. Education of core beliefs doesn't help any singular religion. Solving differences doesn't help any singular religion. I'd argue that education weakens religion, which is why the devoutly faithful aren't really in favour of it.

Not true. I went to Catholic schools all my life and I was often taught about other religions. Half my senior year in high school was world religions, as was my first semester in college. The Catholic Church absolutely encourages the study of other religions, particularly as a means of teaching toleration.

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Not true. I went to Catholic schools all my life and I was often taught about other religions. Half my senior year in high school was world religions, as was my first semester in college. The Catholic Church absolutely encourages the study of other religions, particularly as a means of teaching toleration.

I'm sorry, Simonus agreed with me before you could counterpoint. I believe on a message board system of debate this means I win. Yes? Could someone check the Rule Book of Pwnage on that?

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How can you expect people to solve differences if they are uneducated about core beliefs?

Discard said beliefs? ;)

I've learned MRE and Comparative Religions. It doesn't help anyone understand others. They learn the facts. I had to learn about the Muslim prilgrimage every Muslim is supposed to do once before they die; how they make a tour of the city, do all sorts of stuff, throw a rock in the ditch, blah blah blah. I don't respect Muslims more now that I know this. I barely remember it since it was taught to us, by force, with the fear of failing the course hanging over our heads. I had to memorize a table of all the basics of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (the patron saints, their holy book, their main holidays, etc..). It's school. As a rule, you learn nothing.

But yeah, I agree that it should be left in the curriculum. It beats math. I remember when my black friend in Grade 3 asked the teacher if when she was talking about Abraham, she was referring to Abraham Lincoln.

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Not true. I went to Catholic schools all my life and I was often taught about other religions. Half my senior year in high school was world religions, as was my first semester in college. The Catholic Church absolutely encourages the study of other religions, particularly as a means of teaching toleration.

Well, there are many "catholic" universities that have all but abandoned their theological underpinnings in the classroom. I doubt a biology class at Notre Dame is noticeably different from one at University of Michigan. Only where the church holds more sway to we begin to see differentiation.

As to your high school, I think that is great. It is quite a different thing, I imagine, than the type of instruction offered by the Quebec school system. I am curious to know to what degree catholic dogma was taught with the same tenor as were the other religions. One of the great lessons a student can get from a comparative religion class is to study their parents' faith through the same critical lens as they do others.

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Well, there are many "catholic" universities that have all but abandoned their theological underpinnings in the classroom. I doubt a biology class at Notre Dame is noticeably different from one at University of Michigan. Only where the church holds more sway to we begin to see differentiation.

As to your high school, I think that is great. It is quite a different thing, I imagine, than the type of instruction offered by the Quebec school system. I am curious to know to what degree catholic dogma was taught with the same tenor as were the other religions. One of the great lessons a student can get from a comparative religion class is to study their parents' faith through the same critical lens as they do others.

Why would there be much difference? Yeah, Catholic schools educate their students about the faith and try to create a Christian environment, but religion doesn't really play a role when it comes to science, math, english, etc. classes. When it comes to those classes, not a whole lot different is going on. It's not like Catholic schools use their own brand of text books or anything.

In high school, we obviously spent time time studying Catholicism, but when we did study other religions for that semester, all the other religions were treated with the same respect that the Catholic teachings were given. I just took a look at my bookshelf and the only religion book I kept from high school was the one we used while studying world religions.

When it comes to religion, the most important thing I was taught was that it is ok to question one's faith; in fact it is encouraged. Not a hint of indoctrination. Many of the Church's great theologians went through periods of their lives where they questioned their faith and even God's existence. It is quite reassuring to know that even the most faithful of people question their beliefs and struggle with them at times.

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Why would there be much difference? Yeah, Catholic schools educate their students about the faith and try to create a Christian environment, but religion doesn't really play a role when it comes to science, math, english, etc. classes. When it comes to those classes, not a whole lot different is going on. It's not like Catholic schools use their own brand of text books or anything.

:rolleyes:

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:rolleyes:

Joe, I'd LOVE to see you elaborate on that...

Religion DOES NOT play a roll in science...if you believe in creationism or intelligent design, and it doesn't matter to me if you do, it really does not mean that religion plays, or should play, a roll in a science class.

My personal opinion is that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster holds as much sway in a science classroom as any Christian faith. And, for what it's worth, I went to Catholic school my entire life...

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if I may be so bold as to speak for Joe: religion all to often claims a role in science - a role to which it has no right.

Or, to channel Richard Dawkins: religion makes a claim as to actual events, to the way the actual world works. Insofar as it makes those claims - the historicity of the flood, the tower of babel, the resurrection of a dead person, the existence of a metaphysical soul which exists independent of a living human - it is making a claim which is, at least theoretically, if not in practice, scientific. These questions are scientific insofar as it is possible to imagine evidence which could disprove the claim. In theory, if given a blood sample from Jesus and of Joseph, we would be able to see if Jesus were his biological child, or indeed one might expect to see genetic information which was non-human. If we could analyze Jesus's DNA and find no way in which it was different from a human's DNA, it would make the gospels less likely to be true. Certainly, if we were to find a distinctly non-human element to that DNA - or if such a sample included something other than DNA - then it would lend great credence to the supernatural claims of Christianity. If religion makes a claim that the world is of a certain age - 6,000 years, 10,000 years, 1 trillion years - it is a claim that can be examined.

Perhaps there is a role for God that is not even theoretically testable, much less untestable in practice. Such an argument - for instance, that god set the rules of evolution or set the power of the weak nuclear force - are probably uninteresting or even offensive to the religious believer as a faith that relied on such claims alone would allow for only a non-interventionist, deist god. In essence, then, the claims that religion makes of a theistic god are to a broad degree testable and scientific in nature.

PS - I realize I should reiterate that the above statement is my attempt at channeling Dawkins and is not necessarily my own opinion.

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Joe, I'd LOVE to see you elaborate on that...

Religion DOES NOT play a roll in science...if you believe in creationism or intelligent design, and it doesn't matter to me if you do, it really does not mean that religion plays, or should play, a roll in a science class.

My personal opinion is that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster holds as much sway in a science classroom as any Christian faith. And, for what it's worth, I went to Catholic school my entire life...

I must admit that I missed the word "classes" after the word "etc." in your previous post.

I was :rolleyes: ing cuz I thought you meant that religion doesn't play any role when it comes to science.

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I must admit that I missed the word "classes" after the word "etc." in your previous post.

I was :rolleyes: ing cuz I thought you meant that religion doesn't play any role when it comes to science.

You mean my post?

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You mean my post?

yes sorry.

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Busted Zowpeb and Fanpuck

Experts fear Alberta bill may hamper education

The change says parents should be notified when classes "include subject matter that deals explicitly with religion, sexuality or sexual orientation," and should have the right to ask that their child sit out that part of the class.

[...]

He's worried that some parents might think mentioning different classes of worms would constitute a reference to evolution.

And he said a discussion of ancient geologic formations can't be had without mentioning the world is billions of years old, much more than a literal reading of the Bible would suggest.

Meanwhile, history and literature from around the world are chockablock full of references to religious upheaval.

"Religion is kind of a fuzzy thing, in a sense, in that what some people see as religion others might not," Bruseker said.

Opposition parties have hammered the government on the issue, saying the province is headed back to the time of the 1925 Scopes trial, in which a high school biology teacher in Tennessee was tried for teaching Darwin's theory of evolution.

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Waste of schooling all the way around.

Teach more tech and sciences, and put a subsection in Greek Mythology for the religions of the world.

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How exactly am I busted?

What is "Parents taking their kids out of the science classes" if it is not "playing a role" ??????

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What is "Parents taking their kids out of the science classes" if it is not "playing a role" ??????

I was talking about Catholic schools and my own personal experiences in them. Religion didn't affect my science classes in Catholic schools. We learned about evolution just like everyone else.

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