Gainey

[brobin]

As I watch the playoffs and see real teams play every night, I have started to wonder....

How good is Gainey, really? Sure, he is better then what we had before, but does that really say much? How does he compare to other GMs?

Case in point.. the Boston Bruins.... They are everything we wish the habs to be. Big. Tough. Skilled. Fast. Elite players at most positions.

I think people forget that in early 2006, Boston was a complete disaster. They were in Rejean Houle land... Then they hired Peter Chiarelli in May, 2006.

In two years, he has completely remade that team. He has made some bold moves. He has made some smart moves. He has acquired talent like Wheeler from nowhere. He has made big moves at the deadline. They have crazy depth in goal. Why could that not be the habs? Several of their key personnel were habs, and could be today.

I am coming to the conclusion that the difference is Gainey. Gainey has had 5 years to turn the habs around. While we are better, we are now in decline mode already. We have half our team as UFAs. We have few if any "elite" players coming up.

In any assessment of Gainey, I think people need to put it in perspective. If he is so great, why can't we be the Bruins, who are anything but pretenders?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

As I watch the playoffs and see real teams play every night, I have started to wonder....

How good is Gainey, really? Sure, he is better then what we had before, but does that really say much? How does he compare to other GMs?

Case in point.. the Boston Bruins.... They are everything we wish the habs to be. Big. Tough. Skilled. Fast. Elite players at most positions.

I think people forget that in early 2006, Boston was a complete disaster. They were in Rejean Houle land... Then they hired Peter Chiarelli in May, 2006.

In two years, he has completely remade that team. He has made some bold moves. He has made some smart moves. He has acquired talent like Wheeler from nowhere. He has made big moves at the deadline. They have crazy depth in goal. Why could that not be the habs? Several of their key personnel were habs, and could be today.

I am coming to the conclusion that the difference is Gainey. Gainey has had 5 years to turn the habs around. While we are better, we are now in decline mode already. We have half our team as UFAs. We have few if any "elite" players coming up.

In any assessment of Gainey, I think people need to put it in perspective. If he is so great, why can't we be the Bruins, who are anything but pretenders?

A fair question.

But first, what would your assessment have been in September 2008, when we had added Laraque, Tanguay, and Lang after a 1st-in-the-Conference season? EVERYONE had the Habs sized up as an elite club. It all went to pot, but I don't think Gainey's tenure should be assessed based on a three month span in which everything imaginable went pear-shaped. This is what is so ridiculous in the fan/media hysteria.

Second, how would the Habs look with Chara and Savard? Those are two absolutely core UFAs the Bruins were able to sign. Boston is a prime example of the price the Habs pay for not being a desirable UFA destination.

Third, how will the Bruins look in a couple of years when they run out of cap space to sign Kessel, Lucic, etc.?

[ForumGhost]

I think Gainey has really done this club some good. Obviously every good team has hiccups (Devils, Sharks were upset and the Flames were a heavy favourite despite being in 5th). He took a non-contending team and brought us back to the playoffs. He's made a ton of good moves and I don't think he can be blamed for this year's meltdown. Plus, he's set us up to be a future contender though the draft.

[KoZed]

I think Gainey has really done this club some good. Obviously every good team has hiccups (Devils, Sharks were upset and the Flames were a heavy favourite despite being in 5th). He took a non-contending team and brought us back to the playoffs. He's made a ton of good moves and I don't think he can be blamed for this year's meltdown. Plus, he's set us up to be a future contender though the draft.

He did the club some good because he was a steady hand when the Habs needed it, but I dont think we can say he made "tons" of good moves. It's basically 50-50, and he has to be blamed for this year's meltdown. Like it or not, the buck always stops at the GM. Everybody is saying he failed to properly surround the kids on and off the ice. And the problem with Gainey is that he'll never, NEVERm admit a mistake.

[fromage]

And the problem with Gainey is that he'll never, NEVERm admit a mistake.

Of course not, it's not good for business and it's not good for the media here.

[KoZed]

Of course not, it's not good for business and it's not good for the media here.

???

Not sure I follow your line of thought. I meant that Gainey always finds some explanation for things that went wrong, as if they were planned to go wrong or that it was nobody's fault. Its part of his calm, collected character, but sometimes you have to admit that you f**ked up or else you'll end up giving the impression that you are completely oblivious to what's wrong in your organization.

[Habsy]

???

Not sure I follow your line of thought. I meant that Gainey always finds some explanation for things that went wrong, as if they were planned to go wrong or that it was nobody's fault. Its part of his calm, collected character, but sometimes you have to admit that you f**ked up or else you'll end up giving the impression that you are completely oblivious to what's wrong in your organization.

I hear ya, but I think what he says to the media and what he's aware of are two different things. Bob would be happy if he never saw a microphone again in his life. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but he basically said the current UFA situation was not ideal, as the season went on.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Habsy

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't see what relevance it has to his GMing abilities whether he publicly admits mistakes or not. To me, this is confusing PR with hockey operations.

[KoZed]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but he basically said the current UFA situation was not ideal, as the season went on.

Did he? I thought he said that was also TB's fault...

[Habitforming]

As I watch the playoffs and see real teams play every night, I have started to wonder....

How good is Gainey, really? Sure, he is better then what we had before, but does that really say much? How does he compare to other GMs?

Case in point.. the Boston Bruins.... They are everything we wish the habs to be. Big. Tough. Skilled. Fast. Elite players at most positions.

I think people forget that in early 2006, Boston was a complete disaster. They were in Rejean Houle land... Then they hired Peter Chiarelli in May, 2006.

In two years, he has completely remade that team. He has made some bold moves. He has made some smart moves. He has acquired talent like Wheeler from nowhere. He has made big moves at the deadline. They have crazy depth in goal. Why could that not be the habs? Several of their key personnel were habs, and could be today.

I am coming to the conclusion that the difference is Gainey. Gainey has had 5 years to turn the habs around. While we are better, we are now in decline mode already. We have half our team as UFAs. We have few if any "elite" players coming up.

In any assessment of Gainey, I think people need to put it in perspective. If he is so great, why can't we be the Bruins, who are anything but pretenders?

There are so many factors that you left out in your post that I just don't have the energy to point them out.

One of them is the fact that this post exists. People won't leave well enough alone and quit second guessing every little thing in the organization. I doesn't even matter if you knew the secret to a dynasty in 2 trades.... your not telling the GM or ownership here.

hindsight is always perfect and the biggest critics never fail to use it when it fits their needs.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Habitforming

[redondo]

I think huge part of Gainey's assesment has to include not just what he did, but what he didn't do. When you have media in two languages screaming opinions and suggestions left and right, and a fan base which is anything from impatient to straight spoiled by past success, it's hard to have a steady hand, and stick with the plan. This is in my opinion his single biggest value to the Habs, and unless you got a guy like Holland, Lamoriello or Lacroix, they just wouldn't hold the same weight, which I wouldn't underestimate.

This season and the playoffs were a collosal dissapointment, and obviously the sweep left that sh!t taste in everyone's mouth. But......I would hold my judgement until I see how the Bruins hold up for the rest of the playoffs. That was simply a better team, and built for the playoffs. I have been saying since early in the season that the Habs were not, as evidenced by last year's playoffs (I certainly wasn't the only one) - but if we'd had a healthy Lang and Markov, at the very least it wouldn't have been a sweep. I remember when Therrien's Habs got beaten by the Canes, and then Carolina went on to with the Cup, which made it a little easier to swallow - good opposition can make you look really bad at times.

Anyway, the gist of my point is that Gainey's been a mediocre coach this year, and that somewhat tarnished his reputation as a GM, but the two are separate. We will have a new coach next year, and as for our GM, he will have an opportunity this summer to answer this question for himself loud and clear.

I personally still trust his decision making, Gainey's (and Savard's before that) professed philosophy was to build from within, and other than adding veterans here and there to try and fix an obvious hole (Kovalev, Hamrlik, Lang, Laraque) or addition by substraction (Ribeiro) for sake of the unity in the room, I think he's pretty much stayed on that course. He's had opportunities to jeopardize the future for sake of that one superstar, and each time he decided to err on the side of believing in his kids. Yes, a few times he was lucky too. Still, there was defensible logic in most of his moves within the context of this larger philosophy, even if some of them look bad in retrospect.

[brobin]

There are so many factors that you left out in your post that I just don't have the energy to point them out.

One of them is the fact that this post exists. People won't leave well enough alone and quit second guessing every little thing in the organization. I doesn't even matter if you knew the secret to a dynasty in 2 trades.... your not telling the GM or ownership here.

hindsight is always perfect and the biggest critics never fail to use it when it fits their needs.

I am not questioning any decision. I am looking at results. (I could bring up a ton of bad decisions which I called bad when they happened, not in hindsight).

The facts remain, our team is not that good. Last year was surprising, but the playoffs were an eye opener. This year was a mess but we were never that good. At what point do you look and say, this team is not getting good enough, fast enough. At what point do you admit that maybe, there are some better GMs out there and if we want to be Detroit, NJD, the new Boston, etc.. we need to go find the guy who can get us there. I am losing confidence that Gainey is that man.

and for the record, I am not only basing this on the playoffs. The best team in the league could lose in the first round, especially with injuries. I am talking about our team over the last 3 years. We are a playoff team, but not one that scares anyone.

[brobin]

A fair question.

But first, what would your assessment have been in September 2008, when we had added Laraque, Tanguay, and Lang after a 1st-in-the-Conference season? EVERYONE had the Habs sized up as an elite club. It all went to pot, but I don't think Gainey's tenure should be assessed based on a three month span in which everything imaginable went pear-shaped. This is what is so ridiculous in the fan/media hysteria.

Second, how would the Habs look with Chara and Savard? Those are two absolutely core UFAs the Bruins were able to sign. Boston is a prime example of the price the Habs pay for not being a desirable UFA destination.

Third, how will the Bruins look in a couple of years when they run out of cap space to sign Kessel, Lucic, etc.?

My assessment at the start of the year was that Lang was not good enough. We needed a guy like Sundin and Lang was all we could get. While Lang was great amid the mess of the rest of our forwards, we needed that top centre in a big way. I liked Tanguay.

I never thought we were an elite team last year or this year. I have always said we are a playoff team which is not built for the playoffs. We needed to get some more grit and size on the top 2 lines, not the bottom 2.

As for Montreal being a hard sell, I agree, but I think we need the kind of GM that can convince people to come here anyway. I don't think Gainey's style is conducive to this. In a way, we need more of a salesman then a quiet thinker. I also sense he is slow to make offers and decisions, which turns off many top players.

Finally, the way he has treated our UFAs this year is not good and will make it even harder to sign anyone this year. (I suspect that Gainey might have been forced into this by Gillet, but who knows for sure).

[Peter Puck]

My assessment at the start of the year was that Lang was not good enough. We needed a guy like Sundin and Lang was all we could get. While Lang was great amid the mess of the rest of our forwards, we needed that top centre in a big way. I liked Tanguay.

I never thought we were an elite team last year or this year. I have always said we are a playoff team which is not built for the playoffs. We needed to get some more grit and size on the top 2 lines, not the bottom 2.

As for Montreal being a hard sell, I agree, but I think we need the kind of GM that can convince people to come here anyway. I don't think Gainey's style is conducive to this. In a way, we need more of a salesman then a quiet thinker. I also sense he is slow to make offers and decisions, which turns off many top players.

Finally, the way he has treated our UFAs this year is not good and will make it even harder to sign anyone this year. (I suspect that Gainey might have been forced into this by Gillet, but who knows for sure).

Well in my opinion Lang turned out much better than Sundin. Lang was one of our best forwards, possibly the best.

Sundin hasn't been much of a factor in Vancouver, especially considering his salary. Here are their stats for this year:

Lang 51 games, 18 goals, 21 assists, 39 points.

Sundin 41 games, 9 goals, 19 assists, 28 points.

How people can blame Gainey for this is beyond me. Even if you prefer Sundin (I admit that I did) what more do you expect Gainey to do to get him? You say he is slow to make offers, but he was the fastest of all the GMs to make an offer to Sundin.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Peter Puck

[Habsy]

My assessment at the start of the year was that Lang was not good enough. We needed a guy like Sundin and Lang was all we could get. While Lang was great amid the mess of the rest of our forwards, we needed that top centre in a big way. I liked Tanguay.

I never thought we were an elite team last year or this year. I have always said we are a playoff team which is not built for the playoffs. We needed to get some more grit and size on the top 2 lines, not the bottom 2.

As for Montreal being a hard sell, I agree, but I think we need the kind of GM that can convince people to come here anyway. I don't think Gainey's style is conducive to this. In a way, we need more of a salesman then a quiet thinker. I also sense he is slow to make offers and decisions, which turns off many top players.

Finally, the way he has treated our UFAs this year is not good and will make it even harder to sign anyone this year. (I suspect that Gainey might have been forced into this by Gillet, but who knows for sure).

Now we've heard it all, the reluctance of UFA's to sign here is the fault of Gainey's style??? He flew Shanahan around the city in a helicopter, that isn't quiet thinking to me. You have no clue what he say's or doesn't say to a player and his agent anyway.

[KEEP26]

i think Gainey's biggest mistake was guy as coach and not that i didnt like guy as a player, but i hate him as a coach..he miss use plays, couldnt keep a line together to save his life and never had a plan..most i think is he pissed players off..he what every player to be able to play every role and that dont make sense...ryder was/is a goal scorer, but he what him to do everything..if a energy player had a good game, he would find him self on the first line...guy had no idea what he was doing, and pissed players off to the point of no one had a clue what to do or which role they were in...so bob got to hire a good experince coach that can handle the players..

[brobin]

Now we've heard it all, the reluctance of UFA's to sign here is the fault of Gainey's style??? He flew Shanahan around the city in a helicopter, that isn't quiet thinking to me. You have no clue what he say's or doesn't say to a player and his agent anyway.

You are quite correct, I don't know what he says. What I do know is that he has failed to sign any significant free agents. He typically gets the 2nd class guys, or way over pays (Hammer).

Sorry, but in my job, I have to attract top talent and convince people to join a team many think isn't the sexiest opportunity. I am good at it, which is why I did so well. The guy before me was a great manager in many ways, but he could never get top guys to take our opportunities. Results count.

Look, I am not out to get Gainey. I liked Gainey in most ways, but we are at a point where things are being reviewed. I can't keep making excuses for Gainey. If this job is so hard that these results are never the fault of the GM, then I guess you should cut Houle some slack too.

[brobin]

Well in my opinion Lang turned out much better than Sundin. Lang was one of our best forwards, possibly the best.

Sundin hasn't been much of a factor in Vancouver, especially considering his salary. Here are their stats for this year:

Lang 51 games, 18 goals, 21 assists, 39 points.

Sundin 41 games, 9 goals, 19 assists, 28 points.

How people can blame Gainey for this is beyond me. Even if you prefer Sundin (I admit that I did) what more do you expect Gainey to do to get him? You say he is slow to make offers, but he was the fastest of all the GMs to make an offer to Sundin.

To be clear, I don't blame him for Sundin holding out, but he sure misread the situation. He traded for exclusive rights to talk and got nothing done. Perhaps he should have dropped Sundin earlier and got negotiating with someone else, PLUS Lang.

Lang was a number 3 replacement, he was never intended to be a number 1/2 guy. He did great and we certainly missed him in the 2nd half, but we needed more to go all the way.

I think Gainey does a better job getting guys to resign here, which is why I was so surprised he didn't make a move at the deadline, ala Kovalev. If he did not have Kovy here by trade, I don't think he would have been able to sigh him in the off season. Perhaps Gainey needs to change strategies and work harder at trades in order to get them in the door.

[habs rule]

My assessment at the start of the year was that Lang was not good enough. We needed a guy like Sundin and Lang was all we could get. While Lang was great amid the mess of the rest of our forwards, we needed that top centre in a big way. I liked Tanguay.

I never thought we were an elite team last year or this year. I have always said we are a playoff team which is not built for the playoffs. We needed to get some more grit and size on the top 2 lines, not the bottom 2.

As for Montreal being a hard sell, I agree, but I think we need the kind of GM that can convince people to come here anyway. I don't think Gainey's style is conducive to this. In a way, we need more of a salesman then a quiet thinker. I also sense he is slow to make offers and decisions, which turns off many top players.

Finally, the way he has treated our UFAs this year is not good and will make it even harder to sign anyone this year. (I suspect that Gainey might have been forced into this by Gillet, but who knows for sure).

your sundin comment is funny cause I think gillis got ripped off He thought he was getting full strength sundin but he got the lite version. I would take Lang over sundin right now and I think lang may never play again But then sundin had about 2 good weeks

[habs rule]

You are quite correct, I don't know what he says. What I do know is that he has failed to sign any significant free agents. He typically gets the 2nd class guys, or way over pays (Hammer).

Sorry, but in my job, I have to attract top talent and convince people to join a team many think isn't the sexiest opportunity. I am good at it, which is why I did so well. The guy before me was a great manager in many ways, but he could never get top guys to take our opportunities. Results count.

Look, I am not out to get Gainey. I liked Gainey in most ways, but we are at a point where things are being reviewed. I can't keep making excuses for Gainey. If this job is so hard that these results are never the fault of the GM, then I guess you should cut Houle some slack too.

Somehow I doubt that you are an nhl gm so what you do in your job with your paticular skill set is of no consequence to this discussion. No disrespect intended but there are a lot of us who could say what you say but it has no bearing at all.

i think Gainey's biggest mistake was guy as coach and not that i didnt like guy as a player, but i hate him as a coach..he miss use plays, couldnt keep a line together to save his life and never had a plan..most i think is he pissed players off..he what every player to be able to play every role and that dont make sense...ryder was/is a goal scorer, but he what him to do everything..if a energy player had a good game, he would find him self on the first line...guy had no idea what he was doing, and pissed players off to the point of no one had a clue what to do or which role they were in...so bob got to hire a good experince coach that can handle the players..

Gosh I wish you were the coach, we would have been saved.

[KoZed]

i think Gainey's biggest mistake was guy as coach and not that i didnt like guy as a player, but i hate him as a coach..he miss use plays, couldnt keep a line together to save his life and never had a plan..most i think is he pissed players off..he what every player to be able to play every role and that dont make sense...ryder was/is a goal scorer, but he what him to do everything..if a energy player had a good game, he would find him self on the first line...guy had no idea what he was doing, and pissed players off to the point of no one had a clue what to do or which role they were in...so bob got to hire a good experince coach that can handle the players..

ROFL

So sad it's better to laugh about it.

Carbo was a damn good coach stuck with a bunch of selfish vets and spoiled brats and a GM that thought is work was done and over with in October.

I could demolish your post point by point, but it's been done so many times it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Not to mention that hindsight proved the problem were the players, not the coach. Unless you're willing to admit that Gainey and all the other assistant-coaches sucked ass just the same.

But, haven't you heard? It really is Brian Lawton's fault after all..

[Colin]

ROFL

So sad it's better to laugh about it.

Carbo was a damn good coach stuck with a bunch of selfish vets and spoiled brats and a GM that thought is work was done and over with in October.

I could demolish your post point by point, but it's been done so many times it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Not to mention that hindsight proved the problem were the players, not the coach. Unless you're willing to admit that Gainey and all the other assistant-coaches sucked ass just the same.

But, haven't you heard? It really is Brian Lawton's fault after all..

Anyone ever call you an extremist before?

[Habsy]

ROFL

So sad it's better to laugh about it.

Carbo was a damn good coach stuck with a bunch of selfish vets and spoiled brats and a GM that thought is work was done and over with in October.

I could demolish your post point by point, but it's been done so many times it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Not to mention that hindsight proved the problem were the players, not the coach. Unless you're willing to admit that Gainey and all the other assistant-coaches sucked ass just the same.

But, haven't you heard? It really is Brian Lawton's fault after all..

He didn't say it was Brian Lawton's fault. What he said was yes, the players involved in trade talks, leaked by the pathetic office in Tampa, were disrupted. He was asked a question about it, he answered it.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Honestly, I somewhat agree with KEEP26, short of coming out and saying Carbo was a 'bad coach.' But a major reason why this season was lost quite likely had to do with coaching. First of all, we can blame Gainey for failing to create a mentoring culture for the young guys, etc., but surely the primary responsibility for that rests with the coaching staff. I think again of the article on Marc Savard in The Globe where Savard described a personal mentoring relationship with the coach that elevated him into a team player (note that it wasn't the GM's job). And then I wonder why we *never* hear seem to comparable stories from the Habs; rather we tended to hear rejected players shaking their heads saying they didn't know what the coach wanted from them (e.g., Ryder). Second, based on media reports of a rebellion and subsequent rather cold comments by key vets, Carbo clearly lost the room. No team wins when it reaches that tipping point. Third, it's been a longstanding complaint around here that the Habs never seemed to play a disciplined system and a committed team game - again, classic coaching responsibilities. Add crucial and devastating injuries to that mix and you've got a recipe for an implosion. Which is just what happened.

So what am I saying? That Gainey is Mr. Perfect? Not at all. I agree that the inability to bag a quality Koivu-replacement C is getting to be a joke, and I agree that we need to get tougher up front. (I cannot BELIEVE that Bob doesn't see this). And of course Gainey hired Carbo. What I'm saying is that this was one of those 'lost seasons' that strike all clubs from time to time, and that it was significantly (but in now way exclusively) due to coaching issues; and that an organization as a whole (not to mention a GM) shouldn't be definitively judged or condemned on that basis. Yes, Bob needs to tweak the lineup. But more fundamentally, we need to get a credible coach in here and allow him to implement a system and team identity. Then let's see where we are.

Edited May 3, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[KoZed]

He didn't say it was Brian Lawton's fault. What he said was yes, the players involved in trade talks, leaked by the pathetic office in Tampa, were disrupted. He was asked a question about it, he answered it.

I know, the TB thing is just a running gag.