Gainey

[KoZed]

Honestly, I somewhat agree with KEEP26, short of coming out and saying Carbo was a 'bad coach.' But a major reason why this season was lost quite likely had to do with coaching. First of all, we can blame Gainey for failing to create a mentoring culture for the young guys, etc., but surely the primary responsibility for that rests with the coaching staff. I think again of the article on Marc Savard in The Globe where Savard described a personal mentoring relationship with the coach that elevated him into a team player (note that it wasn't the GM's job). And then I wonder why we *never* hear seem to comparable stories from the Habs; rather we tended to hear rejected players shaking their heads saying they didn't know what their role was. Second, based on media reports of a rebellion and subsequent rather cold comments by key vets, Carbo clearly lost the room. No team wins when it reaches that tipping point. Third, it's been a longstanding complaint around here that the Habs never seemed to play a disciplined system and a committed team game - again, classic coaching responsibilities. Add crucial and devastating injuries to that mix and you've got a recipe for an implosion. Which is just what happened.

So what am I saying? That Gainey is Mr. Perfect? Not at all. I agree that the inability to bag a quality Koivu-replacement C is getting to be a joke, and I agree that we need to get tougher up front. And of course Gainey hired Carbo. What I'm saying is that this was one of those 'lost seasons' that strike all clubs from time to time, and that it was significantly (but in now way exclusively) due to coaching issues; and that an organization as a whole (not to mention a GM) shouldn't be definitively judged or condemned on that basis. Yes, Bob needs to tweak the lineup. But more fundamentally, we need to get a credible coach in here and allow him to implement a system and team identity. Then let's see where we are.

Carbo did admit he had to work on communication, and did it between year 1 and year 2. I think the biggest communication issue was actually between Carbo and Gainey. Judging from the comments Laraque made mid-season, we could understand that Gainey was telling players some things about their role on the team without even letting the coaches know. No wonder the players we confused.

I wont deny Carbo lost the room. So did every Habs coach before them. But losing the room isnt a coach's cardinal sin, neither is it completely in his control. You bring up Marc Savard. Look who else is in the locker room with him: Chara, a larger than life character and player who went from being a sideshow freak in NYI to a Norris candidate. Thomas, a guy who worked his ass off his entire carreer to become a starter at 30+. Bergeron, a kid who basically made Joe Thornton expandable. Ward, tons of experience on winning teams. Kessel, shunned on draft day, cancer, healthy scratch, plenty of trials and humiliations to overcome. I could keep going.

Now compare to our roster. Tell me honestly if you think we have the same character on our roster? A mentor relationship requires a player willing to listen. Hard to do with vets who think so highly of themselves they go over your head to talk directly to the owner or GM and completely undermine your leadership at the same time. Hard to mentor kids who look at those vets acting selfishly and do the same. Monkey see, monkey do.

The room was practically lost before the season began when Carbo found himself with 10 UFAs at the end of the season, all with their own agenda. It went well as long as the team was stealing wins, but as soon as they slacked and the coaches had to make adjustements, all those UFAs went into self-preservation mode. You can't have any team spirit and team cohesion when players play for themselves rather than for each other. Plain and simple.

You can kid yourself that it was all the coach's fault, that it will all magically be fixed with a new coach. If Koivu, Kovy and the usual suspects come back, if Gainey doesnt drastically change his personnal management, I can garantee we'll be having the exact same debates in 3 years.

Hell, we're having the exact same debate we had 3 years ago when people blamed everything on Julien and his inexperienced and lack of a game plan and losing the room.

I mentionned Gainey not admiting mistakes earlier in the thread and someone said they didnt see the relevance. Proper blame assessment is critical in any organization management's process. If you can't put your finger right on the cause of your failure -- especially if they are failures that keep repeating themselves -- then you're doom for more failure. It seems obvious, but blaming this season's failure on the coach is the exact same mistake that has been done in 2006, 2003, 2001...

I, for one, am sick and tired of hearing the same ol' broken record about how it was the coache's fault that players were heartless and gave up. I'm watching the Hawks these playoffs and I'm having a blast. It's not because they're so goddamn well-coached; it's because they play with passion, they have very talented kids who thrive on pressure situation, athletes that wants to push themselves to win.

The reason we failed this season has nothing to do with the coach and everything to do with players who were scared to leave their comfort zone and push themselves to win when we needed it. Instead they expected their teammates to do it for them, and because nobody on the roster had enough authority to bring them into lines, they all decided to lay it on their coache's shoulders.

It's like dirty peasants of the Middle Age who were so lazy in their hygiene, when the Pest swept their village and killed their kids they blamed it on witchcraft and burned the town's cleanest girl.

Mindless mob superstition.

[KEEP26]

no one said it was all guy fault, i said it was not a good idea to hire him, he had never coach before and had no idea what he was doing, because your a great player dont mean you be a good coach..someday he might be a good coach but like doing everything in montreal, your watched like a hawk...he change the lines every night but to me that dont make any sense..i could see moveing lines around once in a while but everynight i wait to see the lines because they were never the same..like you said players play the game, but if you dont have them playing like a team, well its over..and that what happen to the habs...Gainey would not have fire guy if there wasnt somthing major going on...Gainey not that type of gm...when not one of your players have a clue what was going on then there is a problem...

[JLP]

Has Gainey every addressed the suggestion that his singular policy of not re-signing players early might have been detrimental to team spirit? I mean we drafted Komi and now we risk losing him before he hits his prime, for example. If management wants the players to commit to the team, maybe the team ought to have committed to the players?

This is probably the biggest head-scratcher I have when I look at Gainey . . .

[Habsy]

I know, the TB thing is just a running gag.

Cool, gotcha...

Has Gainey every addressed the suggestion that his singular policy of not re-signing players early might have been detrimental to team spirit? I mean we drafted Komi and now we risk losing him before he hits his prime, for example. If management wants the players to commit to the team, maybe the team ought to have committed to the players?

This is probably the biggest head-scratcher I have when I look at Gainey . . .

He sure did. He said, looking back now, it wasn't ideal. He was asked that question at the season ending press conference.

[KoZed]

no one said it was all guy fault, i said it was not a good idea to hire him, he had never coach before and had no idea what he was doing, because your a great player dont mean you be a good coach..someday he might be a good coach but like doing everything in montreal, your watched like a hawk...he change the lines every night but to me that dont make any sense..i could see moveing lines around once in a while but everynight i wait to see the lines because they were never the same..like you said players play the game, but if you dont have them playing like a team, well its over..and that what happen to the habs...Gainey would not have fire guy if there wasnt somthing major going on...Gainey not that type of gm...when not one of your players have a clue what was going on then there is a problem...

Really? He had no idea what he was doing because he was changing line?

I mean... Really? That's your entire argument?

He kept AKost-Plex-Kovy together way too long at the start of the season and then when it was clear it wasnt working he had to switch them around to find something that would get each of them going. That's his fault? Really?

He had Higgins-Koivu-Tanguay for a long time and it worked well. Then Koivu and Higgins got injured and he had to put two new players in and start his lines from scratch again. That's his fault? Really?

Then after a quarter of the season it was obvious SKost didnt want to play, so Carbo had to demote or scratch him and re-work his lines. That's his fault? Really?

Then Lang and Lats got injured and everything had to be changed again. That's his fault? Really?

The "he kept changing his lines" bit is one of the biggest load of BS I've ever heard in a while to explain the dislike of a coach. If he hadnt changed his line, haters would have said "Oh, he cant change lines that dont work, he doesnt know how to adapt, bla bla bla".

At least the communication problems is a real flaw. This lines thing is just like bitching that a red Ferrari is bad car because red is not your favorite color.

[Colin]

At least the communication problems is a real flaw. This lines thing is just like bitching that a red Ferrari is bad car because red is not your favourite colour.

I like yellow.

And as for the lines, I think people are referring to his constantly changing them DURING a game. I mean, come on. He wants instant chemistry, and when it doesn't happen on the third shift, everyone gets slid around. How's anyone supposed to get into a groove?

[alexstream]

I like yellow.

And as for the lines, I think people are referring to his constantly changing them DURING a game. I mean, come on. He wants instant chemistry, and when it doesn't happen on the third shift, everyone gets slid around. How's anyone supposed to get into a groove?

I agree.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I think this argument that Carbo changed his lines too much is weak. The fact is, most coaches do that when the team struggles. Look at Alain Vigneault in Vancouver. When the Canucks were struggling with Luongo out, he was changing lines like crazy and being ripped for it. It's (basically) standard NHL practice and I don't think Carbo should be gassed for that. (Whether it's *good* practice is another matter. Personally, I think most coaches are way too micro-managing).

Kozed reiterates his well-established argument that the core of this team has killed coach after coach and that it's the players' fault. There may be some truth to this, although other than Koivu and Kovalev the personnel on this team has changed considerably from year to year, and it's dubious to attach too much continuity across a four or five season span. My rationale is somewhat simpler. If you took any coach, and watched every single key young player massively regress over the season; had a third overall team from the previous year suddenly start giving up 35-45 shots a night, night after night, with no improvement in sight; observe no discernable system or team identity; watch the losses pile up for weeks and months; watch the team's most talented player float around in confusion (Kovalev - admittedly a head case) to the laughable point where the GM has to step in; and factor in that the 2006-07 season was *also* damaged by similar issues of miscommunication and disorganized team play with the same coach; you'd see that coach getting canned. In other words, Carbo would have been fired by any other organization in the NHL. Probably a lot sooner than Gainey did it.

As for mentorship, I wouldn't disagree that there may be a void among the players themselves. (Guys like Markov and Kovalev are almost certainly lacking in this respect). But that just increases the need for very strong coaching in this regard. Carbo clearly as NOT a good communicator and therefore not a good mentor. That means he was not the right coach for this club at this time.

All of which is to re-affirm that coaching was a major issue this season and that we need a seasoned, proven coach with a track record of dealing with young players in here before we start blowing up the organization.

Finally, Gainey on self-criticism: you may be right, and if the Habs are not internally self-critical that is a grave problem. But we need to distinguish between self-criticism in public and in private (or within the organization). I don't assess a GM based on what he shares with the media, unless it's directly relevant to his job performance; e.g., if he says something brilliant or incredibly stupid. But that Gainey has not adopted a True Confessions approach to media relations is, again, irrelevant in my book.

Edited May 3, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Peter Puck]

I think this argument that Carbo changed his lines too much is weak. The fact is, most coaches do that when the team struggles. Look at Alain Vigneault in Vancouver. When the Canucks were struggling with Luongo out, he was changing lines like crazy and being ripped for it. It's (basically) standard NHL practice and I don't think Carbo should be gassed for that. (Whether it's *good* practice is another matter. Personally, I think most coaches are way too micro-managing).

Kozed reiterates his well-established argument that the core of this team has killed coach after coach and that it's the players' fault. There may be some truth to this, although other than Koivu and Kovalev the personnel on this team has changed considerably from year to year, and it's dubious to attach too much continuity across a four or five season span. My rationale is somewhat simpler. If you took any coach, and watched every single key young player massively regress over the season; had a third overall team from the previous year suddenly start giving up 35-45 shots a night, night after night, with no improvement in sight; observe no discernable system or team identity; watch the losses pile up for weeks and months; watch the team's most talented player float around in confusion (Kovalev - admittedly a head case) to the laughable point where the GM has to step in; and factor in that the 2006-07 season was *also* damaged by similar issues of miscommunication and disorganized team play with the same coach; you'd see that coach getting canned. In other words, Carbo would have been fired by any other organization in the NHL. Probably a lot sooner than Gainey did it.

As for mentorship, I wouldn't disagree that there may be a void among the players themselves. (Guys like Markov and Kovalev are almost certainly lacking in this respect). But that just increases the need for very strong coaching in this regard. Carbo clearly as NOT a good communicator and therefore not a good mentor. That means he was not the right coach for this club at this time.

All of which is to re-affirm that coaching was a major issue this season and that we need a seasoned, proven coach with a track record of dealing with young players in here before we start blowing up the organization.

Finally, Gainey on self-criticism: you may be right, and if the Habs are not internally self-critical that is a grave problem. But we need to distinguish between self-criticism in public and in private (or within the organization). I don't assess a GM based on what he shares with the media, unless it's directly relevant to his job performance; e.g., if he says something brilliant or incredibly stupid. But that Gainey has not adopted a True Confessions approach to media relations is, again, irrelevant in my book.

This is a insightful and accurate analysis of the situation.

Very well thought out and expressed. People need to stop trying to attach all the blame to a single factor or person.

[KEEP26]

no one said it WAS ALL HIS FAULT... but like all great coachs he should find a new job soon, so let agree that we dont agree and wish guy the best...

[hab29RETIRED]

I would blame Gainey for the following:

- Not locking up key free agents early. Komi and Tanguay should have been locked up long-term. I would also tried to offer Koivu and Kovy 2 yr deals at reduced rates (without NTC). If they don't sign, try and trade them or then let them walk - at least make an attempt. By signing them, at least you can still trade them and don't give them up for nothing. This summer he NEEDS to lock up Pleks and Higgins longer term and not make the same stupid mistake of offerting them 1 yr deals and let them become UFA's next year. Of the free agents that we had going in, he was rigth to let Dandy, Bouillon, Kostopolous play out their contracts, bcoz, those guys don't have much value and aren't guys you necessarily need back. The Canadiens have let far too many UFA's go for nothing in recent years (Souray, Streit, Ryder) and have a harder time then any other team in the league in attracting UFA's. If on top of that you keep letting your assets with value walk for nothing is plain stupidity. If guys weren't interested in signing, they should have been moved. Plain and simple, sign or trade your key assets with value.

-Sticking with Price despite obvious issues he was having with confidence. Halak should have been given the ball. It probably would have made sense to send Price to Hamilton to work on his game - too me it wasn't just confidence issues, but technically, everything from positionin to rebound control were horrible after the all star break.

-Hiring Carbo as coach, despite his lack of experience. The canadiens had gone that road since replacing Demers 15 years ago, and it is a strategy that rarely works unless you have a strong core.

-Not getting rid of Carbo earlier this year and replacing him with an experienced coach

-not moving almost anyone on the roster to get a key number 1 centre.

-signing Laraque to a ridiculous contract in a salary cap era.

I would blame Carbo for the following:

-being overly cocky and not improving in areas he needed to develop as a coach (read COMMUNICATION), or at least not adding someone to his staff who could help. I don't know if he choose Muller or Gainey did (Jarvis obviously was a Gainey choice). He should have recognized that he needed an experienced guy to help him behind the bench. As much as I like Muller and wouldn't mind having him as an assistant, if my head coach was named Bowman, Quinnville or Babcock, hiring him as an assistant for an inexperienced head caoch is asking for trouble. Carbo should have had enough intellegence to recognize the benefit of having an experienced guy to help him.

-Making bad coaching decisions, like the constant juggling of lines (yeah, he had injuries and some guys that weren't clicking together, but changing your lines every game and 3-4 times during a game does not allow for any chemistry). using guys like Laraque on a 5-3 advantage. Like Gainey, sticking with Price despite Halak having the hotter hand.

-COMMUNICATION - last fall, you heard Ryder complaining that Carbo never talked to him and Muller or Gainey would talk to him. If a coach can't master this one skill, he is doomed to fail as soon as players go into a slump or have confidence issue.

-Instilling a system - the habs played much of the year running around like chickens with their heads cut off, particularly in their own end.

Do I think Gainey made enough mistakes to get fired - definitely. Do I think given the Montreal market, there is a viable candidate to do a better job - doubt it. So I'd rather give Gainey another chance to turn things around - hopefully he will learn from his mistakes.

Edited May 3, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[brobin]

Somehow I doubt that you are an nhl gm so what you do in your job with your paticular skill set is of no consequence to this discussion. No disrespect intended but there are a lot of us who could say what you say but it has no bearing at all.

Gosh I wish you were the coach, we would have been saved.

LOL, so in your mind.. only another GM can comment on Gainey? right...So did you have the same opinion of Houle? I mean, if you are not a GM, you must never have criticized him either!

As for me being the coach, no, that would not have saved us. you see, the problem is not the coach (Julien, Carbo, or Gainey). The problem is that the team is not good enough, period. You can't blame coaches when you don't give them the horses. I suspect Gainey has just learned this lesson personally. Him coaching made no difference since he never had more then one decent line of talent to work with. Even with Markov we were treading water.

This team needs serious attention if they want to be more then a 6-10, mediocre team that goes out in round 1 or 2. If Gainey can't get it done, then we need to find someone who can. Ie... Someone who can talk a free agent into signing here. One who can find surprising talent. One who can deal with the cap while ensuring young talent doesn't get lost for nothing.

[brobin]

I like yellow.

And as for the lines, I think people are referring to his constantly changing them DURING a game. I mean, come on. He wants instant chemistry, and when it doesn't happen on the third shift, everyone gets slid around. How's anyone supposed to get into a groove?

Julien was just praised for making some line changes in the middle of the game to address the strategy Carolina was using. Genius. If Carbo does it, fire him.

Most of the time when people here bitched about lines they totally ignored the fact that the line was playing like garbage, or it turned out the next day that one of them was playing sick and couldn't keep up, etc. Frankly, Carbo tried every trick in the book with this team, but Scotty Bowman couldn't turn this team into a winner.

I think the biggest difference in opinion on this board comes down to this... Some people here think we had a great team that was mis-coached and unlucky injury wise. Others (myself included), don't feel this team was good enough to be in the top 8 of the league. Not enough blood and guts talent. Not enough depth. Not enough leadership.

If you believe the former, you will always be a great coach away from a Stanley cup. If you believe the later, you know that this team needs changes. If it needs changes, the question becomes.. Can Gainey do it, or do we need to bring in a fresh GM who can move the yardsticks.

If I take Gainey at his word, he thought this was an elite team. If that is truely what he believed (as opposed to just saying what he has to say), then I believe it is time for change.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I would blame Gainey for the following:

- Not locking up key free agents early. Komi and Tanguay should have been locked up long-term. I would also tried to offer Koivu and Kovy 2 yr deals at reduced rates (without NTC). If they don't sign, try and trade them or then let them walk - at least make an attempt. By signing them, at least you can still trade them and don't give them up for nothing. This summer he NEEDS to lock up Pleks and Higgins longer term and not make the same stupid mistake of offerting them 1 yr deals and let them become UFA's next year. Of the free agents that we had going in, he was rigth to let Dandy, Bouillon, Kostopolous play out their contracts, bcoz, those guys don't have much value and aren't guys you necessarily need back. The Canadiens have let far too many UFA's go for nothing in recent years (Souray, Streit, Ryder) and have a harder time then any other team in the league in attracting UFA's. If on top of that you keep letting your assets with value walk for nothing is plain stupidity. If guys weren't interested in signing, they should have been moved. Plain and simple, sign or trade your key assets with value.

-Sticking with Price despite obvious issues he was having with confidence. Halak should have been given the ball. It probably would have made sense to send Price to Hamilton to work on his game - too me it wasn't just confidence issues, but technically, everything from positionin to rebound control were horrible after the all star break.

-Hiring Carbo as coach, despite his lack of experience. The canadiens had gone that road since replacing Demers 15 years ago, and it is a strategy that rarely works unless you have a strong core.

-Not getting rid of Carbo earlier this year and replacing him with an experienced coach

-not moving almost anyone on the roster to get a key number 1 centre.

-signing Laraque to a ridiculous contract in a salary cap era.

I would blame Carbo for the following:

-being overly cocky and not improving in areas he needed to develop as a coach (read COMMUNICATION), or at least not adding someone to his staff who could help. I don't know if he choose Muller or Gainey did (Jarvis obviously was a Gainey choice). He should have recognized that he needed an experienced guy to help him behind the bench. As much as I like Muller and wouldn't mind having him as an assistant, if my head coach was named Bowman, Quinnville or Babcock, hiring him as an assistant for an inexperienced head caoch is asking for trouble. Carbo should have had enough intellegence to recognize the benefit of having an experienced guy to help him.

-Making bad coaching decisions, like the constant juggling of lines (yeah, he had injuries and some guys that weren't clicking together, but changing your lines every game and 3-4 times during a game does not allow for any chemistry). using guys like Laraque on a 5-3 advantage. Like Gainey, sticking with Price despite Halak having the hotter hand.

-COMMUNICATION - last fall, you heard Ryder complaining that Carbo never talked to him and Muller or Gainey would talk to him. If a coach can't master this one skill, he is doomed to fail as soon as players go into a slump or have confidence issue.

-Instilling a system - the habs played much of the year running around like chickens with their heads cut off, particularly in their own end.

Do I think Gainey made enough mistakes to get fired - definitely. Do I think given the Montreal market, there is a viable candidate to do a better job - doubt it. So I'd rather give Gainey another chance to turn things around - hopefully he will learn from his mistakes.

Pretty good analysis. I don't agree with everything - for instance, trading Streit at the deadline last season would have been a strange move and universally attacked - but most of what you say here seems spot-on. In general terms, there does seem to be something strange about NOT being concerned to maximize the value of your assets. For instance, Komisarek. If we're just going to lose him for nothing, as seems likely, then cripes, we should have traded him at the deadline. Gainey should be questioned for this. Now, he'd say that it's the Souray situation all over again: whether or not the 'asset' wants to sign with us, the fear is that moving them at the deadline will fundamentally undermine the team in the stretch drive. OK...but Gainey has adopted this 'keep them for the playoffs and let them walk' philosophy with Souray, Ryder, Streit, and now probably Komisarek, but he didn't do it with Huet - a player who could conceivably have meant the difference between beating Philly last season and losing! I generally support Gainey, but come on, that's Bizarro World managing.

The key variable should be whether the team has a genuine chance to go deep in the playoffs. If it doesn't, and if you can get decent value back, you move the asset. In my perfect world, we'd have dealt Souray at the 2007 deadline, kept Ryder, Streit *and* Huet because we actually had a shot that year, and moved Komisarek this season if it looked like he wouldn't sign. And if Gainey had no idea that Komi might walk this summer, then he is simply negligent.

As for Carbo, you're 100% right about everything IMHO. And if Gainey hires ANOTHER inexperienced coach with no NHL credentials - hello, Don Lever - I'll defer judgement until I see the results, but I'll also tilt over from qualified support into serious skepticism about Gainey. At some point you have to face the real world, not some fantasy land in which you just love coach X and so you hire him despite the pile of corpses of coaches with exactly the same profile.

This will, I believe, be the defining summer of Gainey's tenure. Will he hire the right coach and save cap room for the right player? Will his signings be foolish or well-judged? Will he swing for the fences on a blockbuster trade? It'll be fun to see, but also nerve-wracking given the stakes.

Edited May 3, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Colin]

Julien was just praised for making some line changes in the middle of the game to address the strategy Carolina was using. Genius. If Carbo does it, fire him.

Julien made line changes for a reason. Carbo closed his eyes and pointed at three guys to get out there hoping he'd generate chemistry. Shift after shift. There's a difference. It was fairly amusing, actually, for anyone who wasn't a Canadiens fan, because they kinda felt that Carbo didn't have a clue what to do next and was winging it one moment to the next.

[kaos]

As I watch the playoffs and see real teams play every night, I have started to wonder....

How good is Gainey, really? Sure, he is better then what we had before, but does that really say much? How does he compare to other GMs?

Case in point.. the Boston Bruins.... They are everything we wish the habs to be. Big. Tough. Skilled. Fast. Elite players at most positions.

I think people forget that in early 2006, Boston was a complete disaster. They were in Rejean Houle land... Then they hired Peter Chiarelli in May, 2006.

In two years, he has completely remade that team. He has made some bold moves. He has made some smart moves. He has acquired talent like Wheeler from nowhere. He has made big moves at the deadline. They have crazy depth in goal. Why could that not be the habs? Several of their key personnel were habs, and could be today.

I am coming to the conclusion that the difference is Gainey. Gainey has had 5 years to turn the habs around. While we are better, we are now in decline mode already. We have half our team as UFAs. We have few if any "elite" players coming up.

In any assessment of Gainey, I think people need to put it in perspective. If he is so great, why can't we be the Bruins, who are anything but pretenders?

Boston is a good comparison. They have definitley drafted better than Montreal. If ya consider the drafts between 2003 and 2006

They drafted Mark Stuart, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, Phil Kessel, Denis Wideman and Milan Lucic that are all playing important mins for Boston

Montreal drafted The Kostitsns, Carey Price, Latendresse, and Pacioretty, halak in the same time.

Conclusions? Bostons players develop faster and are generally bigger. Seem find better deals in the later rounds Bergeron, Lucic and Wideman are not 1st rd picks

The definitley get wayyyy better free agents. Chara was a great addtion. Everyone thought they ovverpaid at the time. Nobody thinks that now. Wheeler didn't come from nowhere. Phenoix couldn't sign him so Boston did. Alot of teams in the league were chasing the kid and ya can see why. Hes an awesome talent. Wanna talk about Ryder? I don't Gainey Fuked that up and while were at it we can add firiing that certain coach that made sure Boston scooped him up.

Marc Savard was a fabulous pickup.

Montreal Samsonov, Laraque, Hamrlik,

Conclusions? Which free agents woulda rather have? Boston has way better free agent signings than Montreal.

No doubt that Boston has been better run in the past few years than Montreal has

[tokyohabs]

Wheeler was only going to sign for them from Phoenix, no? He made it clear at the time.

Other than that gift, Chiarelli has done very well. And frankly, if they can't sign all their players in 2 years, but are sitting on one or two cups, do you think they'll give a flying?

But I'd still love to see our team relatively healthy for a season, with Lang and Tanguay and Komisarek at 100%.

[BTH]

I'm pretty sure Chara and Savard signed with Boston before Chiarelli came into town though. I think he was still with the Senators that offseason. If it's true, all he's really done is "stay the course."

[alexstream]

dont forget that boston also finished really low for a couple of years, which helps to get better pick (Kessel)

I think there is also a good part of luck :

Savard is a GOOOD bet... but even the GM who signed him must be surprised of the success. Savard was a big question mark back in Atlanta.

Chara is an awesome bet... remember that Ottawa retained Redden over him...

those players weren't THAT good before getting on the Bruins

cripes, look at ryder!!! WHERE is that guy coming from... even at his best he's never been close to that in MTL... who would have known that Ryder had a 2nd level to his "late blooming"... lol

[ForumGhost]

who would have known that Ryder had a 2nd level to his "late blooming"... lol

Apparently everyone except Bob Gainey.

I think most fans remember the departure of Ryder like this:

When I think it was more like this:

Edited May 4, 2009 by ForumGhost

[hab29RETIRED]

Pretty good analysis. I don't agree with everything - for instance, trading Streit at the deadline last season would have been a strange move and universally attacked - but most of what you say here seems spot-on. In general terms, there does seem to be something strange about NOT being concerned to maximize the value of your assets. For instance, Komisarek. If we're just going to lose him for nothing, as seems likely, then cripes, we should have traded him at the deadline. Gainey should be questioned for this. Now, he'd say that it's the Souray situation all over again: whether or not the 'asset' wants to sign with us, the fear is that moving them at the deadline will fundamentally undermine the team in the stretch drive. OK...but Gainey has adopted this 'keep them for the playoffs and let them walk' philosophy with Souray, Ryder, Streit, and now probably Komisarek, but he didn't do it with Huet - a player who could conceivably have meant the difference between beating Philly last season and losing! I generally support Gainey, but come on, that's Bizarro World managing.

The key variable should be whether the team has a genuine chance to go deep in the playoffs. If it doesn't, and if you can get decent value back, you move the asset. In my perfect world, we'd have dealt Souray at the 2007 deadline, kept Ryder, Streit *and* Huet because we actually had a shot that year, and moved Komisarek this season if it looked like he wouldn't sign. And if Gainey had no idea that Komi might walk this summer, then he is simply negligent.

As for Carbo, you're 100% right about everything IMHO. And if Gainey hires ANOTHER inexperienced coach with no NHL credentials - hello, Don Lever - I'll defer judgement until I see the results, but I'll also tilt over from qualified support into serious skepticism about Gainey. At some point you have to face the real world, not some fantasy land in which you just love coach X and so you hire him despite the pile of corpses of coaches with exactly the same profile.

This will, I believe, be the defining summer of Gainey's tenure. Will he hire the right coach and save cap room for the right player? Will his signings be foolish or well-judged? Will he swing for the fences on a blockbuster trade? It'll be fun to see, but also nerve-wracking given the stakes.

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I actually don't think he should have necessarily traded Streit. I just don't know why he didn't sign him. Streit had said that he would have signed for $2m right up to xmas last year, but the habs didn't want to talk. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't sign Streit for $2M when you wereve willing to pay $1.7M to Dandenault and around $2M to Bouillon. I'd take Streit over either of them. Even worse was signing Brisbois for around $1.5M (with bonuses, that count against the cap bcoz of his age) and the absolutely stupid signing of Laraque - who at best was going to be a p/t 4th line player for a 3 yr $1.5M deal??? How can you sign a one dimensional player like laraque to a long term NTC contract and not sign a key cog to your PP. However, if he didn't want him, he should have tried to move him for another puck moving d-man.

All of last year we heard that Tangauy was available for Ryder. If the habs were not going to play Ryder, why the hell didn't they move him at the deadline??? Who knows, they could have traded Ryder and a 2nd or 3rd rounder for Tanguay and saved the 1st rounder. Same thing with Souray. YOu don't let a guy having a career year walk for nothing. Not negotiating during the year is an incredibly stupid policy. It is one that has burnt Bufallo for years. At least Darcy Regier finally learnt the lesson and moved Campbell last year and resigned Connelly this year.

Komisarik is a guy that the habs should have been trying to sign to a Franzen type of contract, where it could be for 10 or 12 years, which would have Komi signed until he is around 35 or 37. With that kind of deal you should have got him signed to a front loaded contract averaging to under $4m a year. Given that it costed them $5.5M for Hamrlik in his late 30's, a LT front loaded contract would have been a bargain for Komi. Moreover, signing him when he was injured would have been the ideal time to get him under contract at an affordable price.

[alexstream]

Apparently everyone except Bob Gainey.

I think most fans remember the departure of Ryder like this:

When I think it was more like this:

you're kidding?

he was "washed up" before leaving here.

[hab29RETIRED]

Boston is a good comparison. They have definitley drafted better than Montreal. If ya consider the drafts between 2003 and 2006

They drafted Mark Stuart, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, Phil Kessel, Denis Wideman and Milan Lucic that are all playing important mins for Boston

Montreal drafted The Kostitsns, Carey Price, Latendresse, and Pacioretty, halak in the same time.

Conclusions? Bostons players develop faster and are generally bigger. Seem find better deals in the later rounds Bergeron, Lucic and Wideman are not 1st rd picks

The definitley get wayyyy better free agents. Chara was a great addtion. Everyone thought they ovverpaid at the time. Nobody thinks that now. Wheeler didn't come from nowhere. Phenoix couldn't sign him so Boston did. Alot of teams in the league were chasing the kid and ya can see why. Hes an awesome talent. Wanna talk about Ryder? I don't Gainey Fuked that up and while were at it we can add firiing that certain coach that made sure Boston scooped him up.

Marc Savard was a fabulous pickup.

Montreal Samsonov, Laraque, Hamrlik,

Conclusions? Which free agents woulda rather have? Boston has way better free agent signings than Montreal.

No doubt that Boston has been better run in the past few years than Montreal has

Boston signs better free agents, bcoz players for some reason want to play for the bruins (why with an idiot like Jeremy Jacobs owning the team is beyond me). Montreal also tried to sign Wheeler, but he choose the bruins over them. Similarly, Samsonov, laraque and Hamrlik were plans 2c, 4D and 2b.

Samsonov was signed after everyone else had turned the habs down. Hamrlik was signed after Souray turned down a similar deal and Laraque - hell that was just plain stupidity. I think Carbo may have had someting to do with that signing, but even if that is the case, that was one of the dubmest signings Gainey made.

Criticizing Gainey for Sammy would be using hindsight, bcoz, even though I didn't like the sammy I saw with the oilers, he still should have been an upgrade over what we had - especially since every other guy Gainey was after went elsewhere (I think there were at least 4 players that turned the habs down before they signed Sammy).

I also didn't like the Hamrlik signing, bcoz, while Hamrlik got a lot of credit for Phaneauf's development, he has sucked in the playoffs. Last year the signing looked great, given how he is supposed to have helpled Komi, and again, he was not the first choice. I do think that if Gainey had tried to sign Souray and Markov during the year, he would have been able to get them for a much lower price then Markov signed for and what they ended up offering Souray when they were spurned by the other free agents they were after.

Again Laraque - plain stupidity to sign a guy whose only asset is his fighting skills. Even if Larauque was willing to or tried to force guys to fight him this past year, I still would have said that it was a dumb move in a salary cap system.

[hab29RETIRED]

you're kidding?

he was "washed up" before leaving here.

I don't think he was washed up. I put that on Carbo. Read the interviews Ryder did at the end of last year and the start of this year about Carbo's communication - or lack thereof. I've never been much of a Ryder fan and while his success this year - particluarly in the playoffs is much greater then i thought he could ever do, I do think that you can hang his last year in Montreal on Carbo, and the stupidiity of not trading a guy that was either going to be sitting on the bench, on the third line, or in the pressbox as absolute stupidity. he should have been traded - that was a mistake that was inexusable by gainey.

[Neech]

A GM could easily take the ax for the season that has just occurred. Gainey clearly the most blameworthy person around, for the overall weakness of the lineup, the off-ice issues, the handling of Price, etc. It hasn't been a good season. But he's hopefully still a steady and implacable hand at the rudder, which is what we need most now, along with a strong three-year plan. There's still lots of good youth in our system, and with the right additions and management of the salary cap we can be contenders in the near to longer term future. Hopefully Gainey is the right person for the job, and his intimate knowledge of the players can help him to move forward properly.