Gainey

[ForumGhost]

you're kidding?

he was "washed up" before leaving here.

That was the point.

[Fanpuck33]

who would have known that Ryder had a 2nd level to his "late blooming"... lol

What second level? His production this year was the same as his first three in Montreal. He returned to his old level, he didn't reach some new height.

Apparently everyone except Bob Gainey.

Right, all 29 others teams were pushing and shoving and scrambling over each other to get Ryder's services.

[ForumGhost]

I think you guys need to tune up your sarcasm detectors.

[alexstream]

That was the point.

ok

so you mean we were all happy to see him go.

What second level? His production this year was the same as his first three in Montreal. He returned to his old level, he didn't reach some new height.

playoffs superhero... Ryder of all people. I could never have predicted that.

I think you guys need to tune up your sarcasm detectors.

or tune your sarcasms !

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I'm confused as to where Ryder and the failed "trade him or sign him" is relevant to Gainey specifically. I seem to recall for a 3 year period that Ryder was always the last player to sign as an RFA. That the Habs and Ryder were always negotiating. It became clear to me that in time he would leave. Sure we could have traded him last year but UFA's of his calibre usually don't garner much especially when one is playing as badly last year as Ryder did. Blame who you want for Ryder's 2008 misfortunes. The simple fact is he did not want to remain in Montreal. I suppose we could have paid him 4 million. Still, I think he would have gone to Boston anyway.

[tokyohabs]

Yeah, anyone who actually remembers his performance in his last year with us laughed at the contract the scum gave him. He was so bad it was unreal. Part of it may be the way Carbo did / didn't use him, but a lot of people moaned he wasn't used right on the pp, the year we had the best pp in the league. Admittedly, he wasn't going to get a lot of help playing 12 mins a game with the 4th line, but he mailed it in very obviously a lot of the time down the stretch, a defeated player looking like he was ready to move on. No way Bob takes a hit on that one, short of thinking we should have fired Carbo over that.

The FG pics post was him gladly kissing Ryder goodbye, if I'm not mistaken.

[Wamsley01]

It is wonderful to view the Bruins success in relation to the Canadiens coming off a great season. I would also like to see the review that Chiarelli would have received in regards to Gainey last off season, and the review he will receive NEXT off season.

It is easy to say Chiarelli is great right now because he had a season where everything clicked, kind of like last season when Plekanec, the Kostitsyn's and Price looked like budding stars.

The Bruins with outstanding goaltending depth, you have to be kidding me. For all those who believe Thomas miraculously improved, do yourself a favour and go to NHL.com. Then go to BruinsTV and look at 2006 game highlights. Then watch the quality of goals that Thomas allowed that season and try to recall any goals like them against the Bruins THIS YEAR. Price and Halak would look like Kings behind that system, this is not rocket science.

Right now the Bruins are living off youth who are outperforming their pay grade, this added to Savard and Chara have given the Bs this small window. But they are going to have to pay the piper in 12 months when that youth needs to be reupped at their proper pay grade, especially with the ridiculous $9M per season they will be paying Ryder/Thomas for the next 2 seasons.

So let me know how visionary Chiarelli is next June when he is looking at a lower cap and locked into 31M on Chara, Ryder, Thomas, Sturm, Kobasew and Wideman. Can we get another analysis at that time should Gainey remain patient and have MILLIONS in cap space to upgrade his team at discount rates? Can we get another analysis should Marc Savard walk and one of Krejci and Kessel has to be given up? Is Marc Savard's play making those players look better like Kovalev did with Plekanec and AK46 last season?

Chiarelli has been the GM since 2006. He drafted Kessel at number 5, so I am not going to fall all over myself because he is in the NHL. He made a great pick of Lucic at 50, but the rest of his prospects are not exactly sure fire NHLers. He fleeced JFJ for Rask and threw huge money at Chara/Savard because he inherited a team with a ton of capspace. He has done a solid job, but I am not ready to annoint the guy as a god. Should the Bruins not win a Cup in the next 13 months he will have salary cap HELL on his hands

This encapsulates the attitude of this board at all times. There is a hell of a lot going on that does not exist at the base of our nose. Look to the left and right or turn around and there are a million factors that need to be judged. Gainey could have sold off Higgins, Halak a prospect and some picks for Hossa last season and made a Cup final, then last season his grade would have been OFF THE CHARTS. Then everybody here would have complained about the prospects he gave up when Hossa walked and ripped him for three months.

The Habs have 6-8 prospects who are going to mature in the next 2 seasons. Lets judge Gainey's work then. Because I am sure that EVERYBODY who is falling over Chiarelli's work right now would have traded Kostitysn for Krejci last summer.

OVERREACTION. Gainey's reputation will be smeared in my books if during the summer of 2010 he has not improved this team and all the young veteran/prospects nosedive again next season. With all the factors involved, I will not even contemplate this type of short sighted comparison until then.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Wamsley01

[Chris]

BG moves can't really be faulted just the results this year anyway. Lang and Tanguay argably when healthy the best 2 habs players missed significant time. All the youth had worse seasons this year compared to last, i'm sure know one expected that.

Not addressing the D problem may have been his fault but unltimately it was addressed.

Arguably his best 2 forwards Koivu and Kovalev just don't have the heart and character to make a team better. Obviously people will disagree but look at the facts. There on ice play was really bad, Kovalev picked it up after his benching.

It was simply a bad year compared to the results of the year before.

His belief in the same players who never have succeeded is his big fault in my eyes. There are no winners on this team, know one has ever stepped up to be the man.

Team problems needing to be addressed:

The team is slow, especially defensively

The team is soft, not willing to take hits to make plays

The team doesn't play smart hockey

The passing is really poor

Player characteristics:

Lazy

soft: this year when did you ever see a player leave his feet to block a shot? Don't stand up for eachother

no character, leadership and dedication

So BG needs to decide which actual players meet the standards he wants to bring to the ice.

What players can be brought in to make this happen.

Coaching: Who will it be, will they be given a chance when things go bad? There has been a very bad presedene set when the team stops showing up, the coach goes, it's time for players to take resposibility for there actions or in this case in action.

Is Lats a top 6 guy? When he a Lapierre are together they aren't a checking line, they aren't really a scoring line, So what are they?

Those decisions need to be made. The team needs a shut down 3, a aggravating 3 and 2 scoring lines. Some D that can skate and move the puck.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Same thing with Souray. YOu don't let a guy having a career year walk for nothing....

The only way around that would have been to trade him to San Jose for Bernier (I seem to recall that being one of the rumours out there). But, beyond that I'm not sure that anything would have tempted Souray to remain. He was going to leave no matter what. His behaviour down the 2007 stretch spoke volumes as did his returning to the bench prematurely holding his shoulder during the last possible rush we had on Toronto. His skating to the bench, holding his shoulder and being too slow about it (Yeah Sheldon, the sooner you get yer butt over to the bench is the sooner we can put another D out there to help us tie the game to get into the playoffs) spoke volumes.

Souray: "Negotiate with Markov first".

BOb did!!! Did it matter? Nope!

Anyway, horrah for Souray. He can be happy he went to a team that makes the playoffs all the time.

[hab29RETIRED]

The only way around that would have been to trade him to San Jose for Bernier (I seem to recall that being one of the rumours out there). But, beyond that I'm not sure that anything would have tempted Souray to remain. He was going to leave no matter what. His behaviour down the 2007 stretch spoke volumes as did his returning to the bench prematurely holding his shoulder during the last possible rush we had on Toronto. His skating to the bench, holding his shoulder and being too slow about it (Yeah Sheldon, the sooner you get yer butt over to the bench is the sooner we can put another D out there to help us tie the game to get into the playoffs) spoke volumes.

Souray: "Negotiate with Markov first".

BOb did!!! Did it matter? Nope!

Anyway, horrah for Souray. He can be happy he went to a team that makes the playoffs all the time.

I think the issue is that gainey should have tried to get markov and souray signed prior to the trade deadline. If souray didn't want to sign he should have been able to fetch at least as much, or more likely more then what they got for Rivet (which along with the Kovalev deal, were probably the best trades he made).

[Wamsley01]

The only way around that would have been to trade him to San Jose for Bernier (I seem to recall that being one of the rumours out there). But, beyond that I'm not sure that anything would have tempted Souray to remain. He was going to leave no matter what. His behaviour down the 2007 stretch spoke volumes as did his returning to the bench prematurely holding his shoulder during the last possible rush we had on Toronto. His skating to the bench, holding his shoulder and being too slow about it (Yeah Sheldon, the sooner you get yer butt over to the bench is the sooner we can put another D out there to help us tie the game to get into the playoffs) spoke volumes.

Souray: "Negotiate with Markov first".

BOb did!!! Did it matter? Nope!

Anyway, horrah for Souray. He can be happy he went to a team that makes the playoffs all the time.

It is the name of the game in the new salary cap NHL.

Some players are going to walk, some will not.

Bouwmeester in Florida, Cammalleri in Calgary, Sedin's in Vancouver,

Hossa in Detroit, Havlat in Chicago, Cole in Carolina, Ohlund in Vancouver

and ON and ON and ON and ON.

It is a calculated gamble. It is not a clear cut decision on whether you should

keep a player or take a run in the playoffs. Anaheim was contemplating dealing

Niedermayer, Pronger etc because the assumption was they could not compete

against the San Jose's of the world. If they had, they wouldn't have knocked off

the Sharks.

I wanted Gainey to deal Souray and argued on this board against keeping him for

an ill fated playoff run. He didn't, end of story. I am not going to bring it up two years

later as a slight against Gainey. I have NO IDEA what was said between Gainey and his agent, I have no insight wether Souray was leaving signs he was gone etc.

Was it not a bigger mistake to not deal Komisarek? What would the return have been on that?

I don't recall a huge following on this board demanding that, but I am sure I will read what

a stupid decision it was should he leave this summer.

It is so easy to criticize after the fact. Jesus, those who said it was a mistake to deal Ribeiro

have spent 3 years tooting their own horn about it, but are strangely quiet on the mistakes

they would have made.

Insight and foresight is interesting, revisionist history, not so much.

[MK1]

That's right guys, just sit back and wait, all of those teams that are making playoffs runs and having success on and off the ice, it will all come to and end in a couple years when the dreaded "cap" ravages them all ....

Success in this league is like the time value of money .... sure you can wait and see, and maybe just maybe, if everything falls into place, you can reap some rewards 5yrs from now, at the expense of a TON of fans, and more importantly their money. Or you can realize that GMs come and go, and you need to grow a pair and make some bold moves in order to have your team contending on an annual basis.

If you can sleep better at night knowing there are some "solid kids coming up" by all means enjoy the product currently on the ice because that is all Bob is banking on at this stage in the game. There is a similar Toronto-based club that has has the same mentality for the past decade, ask their fans how the "wait a couple years" argument feels each season.

From where I sit I see a city that is almost at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to attracting free agents, a GM who barely opens his mouth and is "real close to a big deal" each trade deadline, and a team that despite having the need for grit and top line Cs has acquired neither over the past few seasons.

But BG is doing great, in fact give him a raise, he's a very smart hockey man you know.

Edited May 4, 2009 by MK1

[ForumGhost]

The FG pics post was him gladly kissing Ryder goodbye, if I'm not mistaken.

Casablanca: sad goodbye

VE Day: celebration

[kaos]

Casablanca: sad goodbye

VE Day: celebration

Actually the sailor kissing pic is VJ day. Not VE day

[ForumGhost]

Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. >_<

[Peter Puck]

Boston is a good comparison. They have definitley drafted better than Montreal. If ya consider the drafts between 2003 and 2006

They drafted Mark Stuart, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, Phil Kessel, Denis Wideman and Milan Lucic that are all playing important mins for Boston

Montreal drafted The Kostitsns, Carey Price, Latendresse, and Pacioretty, halak in the same time.

Conclusions? Bostons players develop faster and are generally bigger. Seem find better deals in the later rounds Bergeron, Lucic and Wideman are not 1st rd picks

The definitley get wayyyy better free agents. Chara was a great addtion. Everyone thought they ovverpaid at the time. Nobody thinks that now. Wheeler didn't come from nowhere. Phenoix couldn't sign him so Boston did. Alot of teams in the league were chasing the kid and ya can see why. Hes an awesome talent. Wanna talk about Ryder? I don't Gainey Fuked that up and while were at it we can add firiing that certain coach that made sure Boston scooped him up.

Marc Savard was a fabulous pickup.

Montreal Samsonov, Laraque, Hamrlik,

Conclusions? Which free agents woulda rather have? Boston has way better free agent signings than Montreal.

No doubt that Boston has been better run in the past few years than Montreal has

Well I don't disagree too much, but I do think it is a mistake to anoint the Bruins as a successful team at this stage.

So far they haven't done anything Montreal didn't do last year. Let's see if they can get into the 3rd round. They could easily lose to the Hurricanes. If they don't make the cup finals this year they may turn out to be a flash in the pan.

Personally, I don't expect Ryder and Thomas to repeat this season's success next year.

[tokyohabs]

Reading MK1's post and watching Caps / Pens, it is clear there are two distinct ways that a team can be built.

1) Let it slide and flounder, risk losing the franchise (not in our case of course), accumulate great draft picks, with horribly low expectations fans see gradual improvement year by year, and if you hit the jackpot (Ovie, Sid, Kane / Toews), you have something. If not, you stay the Kings or Coyotes or Thrashers.

2) Try to stay competitive each year and build, slowly but surely, towards a bigger goal, jettisoning players who longer fit, because you have a group core that approaches maturity. Detroit and NJ are at very advanced stages of this process; this is more of what Bob envisioned. Besides, tanking is really not an option with us.

He has to try to make the playoffs every year, to compete jusqu'au bout. He can't really become a seller, watch everything disintegrate, and jeapordise his job. Regrettably this year he was saddled both with terrible injuries, p*ss-poor play by several players, the asinine 100th celebrations, and the exposition of certain players that they might not be up to scratch. Added to that a coaching situation that I'm sure he thought long about before making the move and off-ice distractions; as well as some of his own mistakes (not getting a proper replacement for Streit), you have the makings of a bad, season, bad vibes all around. We have to give him another shot, it is not as much rebuilding as it is maturing we have to do. There are holes he has to fill, sure, but we have to wait and see.

Boston is different, everything is going right. If they win the cup this year or next they won't care about three or four sh*te seasons, they're well used to it. Good for them, it is another way to build, bit odd in the cap era but it is working so far.

Of course, one other building plan we could follow is the Leafs...

[alexstream]

Boston is different, everything is going right. If they win the cup this year or next they won't care about three or four sh*te seasons, they're well used to it. Good for them, it is another way to build, bit odd in the cap era but it is working so far.

Of course, one other building plan we could follow is the Leafs...

yah and some people are way way way over reacting about Boston. The same thing is happening to them as happened to us last season.

They aren't the Wings... they're a good fast well rounded team for which EVERYTHING seems to go well at THIS moment.

they aren't a frikkin dynasty. Dont get me started! lol

[BTH]

playoffs superhero... Ryder of all people. I could never have predicted that.

Meh. Hat trick in the final game against Toronto, 6-5 double OT winner in Game 2 against Carolina. He's always been pretty good in clutch situations.

[ForumGhost]

Boston went from being mediocre/poor to cup contender in one season. Sound familiar? Reminds me of us last season. We'll see how long they can sit on their throne. I wanna go on record right now by predicting that even if they win the cup this year, they have to fight for a playoff spot next year.

Edited May 5, 2009 by ForumGhost

[saskhab]

Boston went from being mediocre/poor to cup contender in one season. Sound familiar? Reminds me of us last season. We'll see how long they can sit on their throne. I wanna go on record right now by predicting that even if they win the cup this year, they have to fight for a playoff spot next year.

I've talked to Boston fans who are already debating whether they should trade Marc Savard this summer to make sure they can keep Krejci and Kessel long term. There will definitely be some tough decisions ahead for the Bruins.

[Neech]

Boston went from being mediocre/poor to cup contender in one season. Sound familiar? Reminds me of us last season. We'll see how long they can sit on their throne. I wanna go on record right now by predicting that even if they win the cup this year, they have to fight for a playoff spot next year.

Seems unlikely. They'll probably only have to trade one key player, maybe Savard or Bergeron.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm halfway between Wamsley and MK1 on this.

On the one hand, Gainey's calm patience and belief in the young players are good things, as is the combination of sheer dumb luck and good judgement that has prevented this organization from being saddled with idiotic contracts on the scale of Lecavalier's or Briere's.

On the other hand, asset management IS an issue. I've cautiously defended Bob's approach to contracts in the past. But IF (and it remains an 'if' at this point) we lose Komisarek, then we have to conclude that his approach has yielded very serious failures. We let Streit walk and part of the argument was that that was for the best, because we would need the money to re-up Komisarek. That made sense to me (and the claim that we 'could have signed Streit for $2 mil' strikes me as fanciful back-seat driving). But if you end up letting BOTH Streit and Komisarek players walk, you've lost two top-4 defenceman in two years for nothing, with no obvious replacements ready to step in. And don't tell me that Weber is the answer. Raw rookies are almost never the answer.

Sorry, but that is simply terrible asset management. No matter how you slice it.

While I'm sympathetic to Wamsley's idea that we should wait until big names start dropping like plums in 2011, the more I think about it, the more I think that if we lose Komisarek our best option might be to push really hard for Boumeester. He's only 26 and has already proven himself a Markov-like all-around all-star defenceman. $6-7 mil for him might represent a good long-term investment, and he and Markov would make a hell of a 1-2 punch on the back end. It is sheer idiocy to keep waiting and waiting for Subban and McDonough and these other D-men in the system given that it often takes defencemen about five years tor eally mature at the NHL level.

If Gainey lets Komi walk he HAS to do something like this. Otherwise this team is right back in the crapper. And that is not acceptable in Year Six of a five-year plan, only one year of which has been any good at all.

Like I say...I'm pro-Gainey, but he has to make the right moves this summer. If he can't re-sign Komi at a reasonable rate, then Boumeester becomes almost a must.

[ForumGhost]

Just don't expect Gainey to sign JayBo if we can't resign Komi. There will be 29 other teams making pitches at him, and our free agent track record has not been great.

Edited May 5, 2009 by ForumGhost

[Habsfan]

I'm halfway between Wamsley and MK1 on this.

On the one hand, Gainey's calm patience and belief in the young players are good things, as is the combination of sheer dumb luck and good judgement that has prevented this organization from being saddled with idiotic contracts on the scale of Lecavalier's or Briere's.

On the other hand, asset management IS an issue. I've cautiously defended Bob's approach to contracts in the past. But IF (and it remains an 'if' at this point) we lose Komisarek, then we have to conclude that his approach has yielded very serious failures. We let Streit walk and part of the argument was that that was for the best, because we would need the money to re-up Komisarek. That made sense to me (and the claim that we 'could have signed Streit for $2 mil' strikes me as fanciful back-seat driving). But if you end up letting BOTH Streit and Komisarek players walk, you've lost two top-4 defenceman in two years for nothing, with no obvious replacements ready to step in. And don't tell me that Weber is the answer. Raw rookies are almost never the answer.

Sorry, but that is simply terrible asset management. No matter how you slice it.

While I'm sympathetic to Wamsley's idea that we should wait until big names start dropping like plums in 2011, the more I think about it, the more I think that if we lose Komisarek our best option might be to push really hard for Boumeester. He's only 26 and has already proven himself a Markov-like all-around all-star defenceman. $6-7 mil for him might represent a good long-term investment, and he and Markov would make a hell of a 1-2 punch on the back end. It is sheer idiocy to keep waiting and waiting for Subban and McDonough and these other D-men in the system given that it often takes defencemen about five years tor eally mature at the NHL level.

If Gainey lets Komi walk he HAS to do something like this. Otherwise this team is right back in the crapper. And that is not acceptable in Year Six of a five-year plan, only one year of which has been any good at all.

Like I say...I'm pro-Gainey, but he has to make the right moves this summer. If he can't re-sign Komi at a reasonable rate, then Boumeester becomes almost a must.

Best post of the year!!!