Bob Gainey is an Idiot

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Here is a year old article on Gainey's movements as GM since 2003.

Habseyesontheprize.com - Habs Transactions by Gainey form 2003 to 2008

These are just the plain facts on roster moves, trades, draft picks and other transactions during the Gainey regime in Montreal from 2003 to the present. The listing includes all moves on the Canadiens roster and relevant moves on the Hamilton Bulldogs roster.

I believe that as much as the glass is half enpty with BOb (and it is) it is also half full too.

[tokyohabs]

Beauchemin is coming off major knee surgery. Look at the Habs now: no-one on the team had missed significant time recently. I really think this was the main factor going away from Beauchemin, and I am a big fan. Not a justification, but trying to fit it into a logical pattern. Plus having Spacek playing a #2 or #3 role will be very, very good for us.

habs29RET: Barring winning the Cup and Conn Smythe, there is no way Calgary could have re-signed Cammalleri after the Jokinen trade. Your comments are correct on Gomez, but Gomez now and Koivu now are far apart and growing further apart. Bob is gambling on Gomez being re-united with Gionta and playing within a clearly defined system, playing with mobile, attacking, passing d men, and playing with either a huge young winger or a small lethal sniper. It is a gamble, I am first in line to point it out, but it is also like the signing of Gionta: of course no-one would give him 5m a year...unless they had the guy who played with him on his 48-goal season. Bob couldn't afford to be in f around dither mode this year, he wanted the changes and he got them.

It remains to be seen if this works. It is a huge gamble, and could possibly cripple us cap-wise down the road. It certainly screws us for next year when team will be desperate to unload big contracts. But one gamble that was never going to pay off, was sticking with the team we had that limped into 8th place, that had a horrific injury run, that collapsed after (actually, 2 games before) the All-Star break, that had the same core over a number of years none of them successful save one, and worst of all that was so lifeless and beaten over the final 4 games and those infernal playoffs that to make a couple of changes here and there would have been diabolical inertia. I remember watching the tail end of game 3, actually in a perverse way hoping the sweep would happen so we wouldn't have to drag it out over our lifeless mangled corpse.

The future might be ours. The recent past was never going to be.

[alexstream]

But Bob was an "idiot" last year for NOT DOING ANYTHING...............Damed if he does damed if he doesn't.

How about we wait and see the new on ice product?

@ Habs29 : I won't try to convince you, but obviously, there was something last season that made you love that team more than most of us (and more than it deserved, I'd say... That team was a MAJOR choke)

Although you certainly won't get convinced by just some random posters, let me put it out this way :

3 seasons ago, we missed the playoffs, all the main players are under contract until 2009, that squad successfully achieved to fire another good coach (After Michel Therrien some seasons ago). You know the rest of the Story, Claude Julien is now considered one of NHL's best coach. However, Gainey puts his trust in that team, fires the coach, hires Carbo as his assistant, but they miss the playoffs.

2 years ago, we finished 1st. This alone was a good reason to let us (and Gainey) think that with 2-3 add-ons, this team would be a TOP contender, nonetheless, we are a NO CONTEST vs the Flyers. NO ONE ABLE TO SCORE (take a hint already) against a goalie who is without a contract right now (i.e. not considered a legitimate starter)

Last season, Gainey goes to work, gets some reinforcement in Tanguay, Lang... However the team majorly chokes after the first half. another fire the coach event, things are starting to get suspicious. The "core" of this team might be a problem no?

Well to a majority of the fans (and to Gainey and Carbo), yes, there was something rotten in the state of Habsland.

To most observer, this team had no identity. Lots of talented players, but one north-south, the other east-west, the other circling, the other chasing the puck... too many play makers, etc, etc.

To most observer, something had to be done.

Some blame Gainey for not re-signing his asset before the season, etc.

Would he had done so, we'd be stuck with a repeat of the 09 edition for the upcoming season.

Something had to be done.

If you look at the moves "Individually", they make sure no sense. But you are more intelligent than that, you can look at the whole picture and try to see a scheme. If you don't like the whole scheme either, that's your right.

But you can't just look at Gomez and say, hmmm, I don't like that trade, but I like Cammalleri's signing.

Why?

Because they are part of the same plan.

Let me explain the plan in "order":

1. Gainey decides to change the identity of this team and to start by getting a proven winning center.

2. Gainey decides to let Koivu walk, but to retain Komi and Kovy (and to later decide what to do with Tangs and co)

3. The strategy is to sign agents on the 1st. To be the most active mofo out there, to avoid the screw ups of the past season (Brière to name only him). So there is no "let me wait a couple of days" allowed. It's yes or no.

4. The agents must be complimentary to whoever will be the 1st line center. After the fiasco of trying to line Kovalev and Koivu together, we want stars who will complete each others. We want to be able to have a real first line option.

-The best example is if you trade for Gomez, you can't seriously think that Tanguay will click with him, they are too identical.

Therefore it is decided that a center MUST BE TRADED FOR BEFORE JULY 1st.

- you can't serious attract free agents without knowing who will be your 1st line center

- you can't know who to hunt for if you don't know what type of player your first line center will be (the gomez-tanguay example)

5. Gainey trades for Lecavalier. Barrie vetoes the trade.

6. Gainey makes several other attempts, all denied.

7. Gainey tries for Gomez. The price is steep, but it's lower (almost 1/2) than Lecavalier and is the best guy AVAILABLE. He's not trying to go cheap, he just wants the best centerman AVAILABLE on the market. Notice the word AVAILABLE. it is key.

8. Gainey goes hunting with Gomez as his main assets.

9. It works, he convinces Camm (several other suitors, all in the same ball park for $) to come here and Gionta to move his family for some $ more (4M in NJ last season is not a lot less than 5M in montreal, after taxes), Brodeur admits that Gionta will be terribly hard to replace.

10. Komi quits on us, Gainey offered slightly less than TO, but Komi accepts TO's offer without giving Gainey a chance to top it. He says in interview that it was time to move on and liked what Burke told him, etc.

11. There is no more room at forward for Kovalev who wakes up WAY TOO LATE and decides he wants to come back to MTL several hours after most of the FAs are signed throughout the league. The key here is that Kovalev could have made us miss the train if we had waited for him... and then he'd have decided to go to LA or something. (that was his talk at the moment : wait for me, L.A. is offering something tempting.)

12. Gainey replaces Komi's toughness with Hal Gill and replaces Schneider with Spacek. Komi's mobility for a big man and his leadership are not replaced.

The end result is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAM.

Not 2-3 individuals that you can look at and say : I preferred Koivu, I preferred x, y, z.

Nah.

Gainey, fed up of firing his coach, hired a new coach and FIRED THE TEAM.

Firing his team is the key there.

HE replaced it with a new one.

and he BRILLIANTLY did so.

He couldn't have done that while keeping 8 out of 10 UFA. He had to do a big great sweep.

And he had to get guys who would want to fit within a SYSTEM (i.e. Not Higgins "I'm a 40-40 guy and I'm not a 3rd line checking guy", not Kovalev, etc)

He got guys with stanley cup rings, guys with proven track records.

Will it work?

Only time will tell.

Are you allowed to be frustrated that all your favorite players are gone?

YES, TOTALLY.

Can you say Bob is stupid?

IF you know the whole story, I think Bob did exactly what had to be done, and did it the best he could with what was available.

Of course, if you think you would have done better, that's a whole different story...

but I sincerely think he couldn't have done anything else once the decision to change the team was taken. In the actual context, he couldn't wait till december to try to trade for a center. (none would be available)

Tow things will be Gainey's judge :

-A center moving soon, for less than Gomez's and better than Gomez

-The team being worst than the 09 edition.

[redondo]

Hey, can the mods perhaps change the title of this thread? I understand everyone has their opinions, but calling one of the Habs greats an idiot because you're unhappy with his latest moves is a bit juvenile, and frankly makes the board look a little unprofessional.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Bob has certainly mismanaged assets on D. He's lost Hainsey, Beauchemin, Souray, Streit and Komi - all without reciving a single asset in return. Komisarek, certainly, either should have been locked up before July 1 or traded at the deadline, especially given that the club was clearly going nowhere (although, then again, dealing a key D-man at the deadline probably would have meant missing the playoffs - unacceptable in Year 100. But in pure hockey terms, that's what should have been done).

A lot of what Habs29 complains about are symptoms of the Year 100 meltdown. Tanguay was acquired to give the team another veteran offensive element for a deep run. Schneider was acquired to bolster the D in the stretch drive. Neither trade would likely have been made if not for the specific situation; in September, Bob was *clearly* 'going for it,' sacrificing picks for a chance to win NOW. By Febraury, it had all got to pot, but Bob had to come to grips with the reality that he was not permitted to miss the playoffs in 2009 and therefore could neither maximize veteran assets by trading them, nor decline to bolster a failing team by trading picks to strengthen the blueline. Loading up in September made sense given that the team was a reasonable bet to reach the Finals, based on 2008 results; trade deadline moves and non-moves (e.g., keeping Kovy, Tanguay, Koivu, and Komisarek) were reasonable given the practical realities of the situation.

I think you have to look at the big picture anyway. Gainey took a team from garbage to first in the Conference. Granted, that team then regressed last season - but still made the playoffs despite everything imaginable going wrong (when Bob took over, this team would only make the playoffs if everything went RIGHT). The overall organization is so much stronger now it's ridiculous. A further proof of that strength is that prominent players now want to come here (Cammalleri, Gionta) and also stay here (Koivu, Kovalev). Whatever we think of the loss of Kovy and Koivu, it says something about the strength of the organization that we are now in a position to tell high-profile guys like that that their services are no longer required. Montreal seems finally to have made that jump to being a respected franchise among players - a place you can go to 'have a chance to win.'

Gainey has unquestionably taken a huge risk with his signings this season, but it is waaay premature to denounce them. As others have said, he basically jettisoned an old and decaying core with younger, faster and comparably talented players, two of whom are proven winners. The true risk in my book is in placing so much trust in our young forwards. But calling Gainey an 'idiot' sounds grossly overstated in my book.

Edited July 9, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Peter Puck]

Teams have been signing and trading players for years if they don't work out - look at Toronto they are poster boys for stupid signings and then dumping their mistakes on others. They still have had no issues signing players. This year i really like Burkes pickups on defence - if they can pickup 2-3 decent forwards, as much as it hurts to even think about it, I think they could finish ahead of the habs.

I would not sign and trade Koivu. I think the habs should have signed him for another two years, or at least one more year. Koivu was one of the only habs who gives it his all when it counts. I can't believe he the crap he had to put up with during his time in Montreal, especially when he was asked to be the number 1 centre, which he clearly was not fitted for that role after all his injuries. IMO, he would have been the perfect #2 centre. I think we replaced a guy who was a perfect #2 centre, with another #2 centre and will also be asking him to be a #1 centre. Gomez has not shown that he is a #1 centre. He has done nothing with the NYR to prove that he is a #1 centre, so I don't buy this arguement that Gainey has filled the long filling hole of missing a #1 centre.

With respect to Gomez and Gionta they had career years playing with a big clutch player in Elias. Now they are playing with Cammelleri. Had Cammellari had a good playoff he would have been resigned by Calgary.

What I find VERY frustrating is that we constantly go after other teams rejects - Tanguay was run out of town and picked up by Calgary, Gomez and his contract were called untradeable and an anchorwould sink any team in the salary cap era and Gainey picks him up. Gionta is a good two way player, but NOBODY in their right mind would have come even close to the $5M that the habs offered.

Hal Gill is a pylon that was run out of toronto. At least he wasn't signed to the stupid deal toronto had signed him to, but still, he is a pylon. Yeah he is big, but he moves like a log. As I said before, he won a cup, but so what, Gary Leeman won a cup in Montreal. Does that make him a winner or a guy you would want on your team??? Why, why, why wouldn't you at least TRY and sign Beauchiman, a guy who had said he would be interested in going back to Montreal.

Yeah Toronto really has signed a long list of talented free agents lately. Plus, who have they signed and traded right away? You feel they are only 2 or 3 decent forwards away from being better than us. They signed a couple of players that make their defence look pretty good. But doing that meant that they have no money left for forwards.

So in reality they are a long way from reaching our level.

More importantly, how can you think there would be teams willing to trade for Koivu, Tanguay or Kovalev. All 3 could be had for free on July 1 and all 3 had trouble finding new teams. Teams aren't keen to sign them but you think they would be willing to give us assets to get them???

Gomez has shown that he is a number one centre. He had a rough time in NY but he was good in NJ. I agree that it would have been better to get a better centre but tell me how Gainey was supposed to get one? You already say he gave up too much for Gomez.

Of course you assujme that the Gionta-Gomez-Elias line was all due to Elias. If we'd gotten Elias you'd be blaming Gainey for getting a guy whose numbers were all the product of his linemates.

You say that Calgary would have signed Cammallari if he'd had a good playoff. Where's the evidence for that? Can you provide a link? In fact, Calgary has severe cap problems and can't afford Cammalleri.

With Gomez you complain that he was bad in NY and ignore his time in NJ. With Gill you complain that he was bad in Toronto and ignore his time in Pittsburg. As bad as he was in Toronto, he had a great playoff for the Penguins and was on the ice in the dying seconds of game 7 protecting a 1 goal lead.

You complain that we go after other teams "rejects". Any player we get, except in the draft, is another teams reject. This is just a label used to demean players we sign or trade for.

Finally, I'll point out that (according to Beachemin) 1) Bob did go after Bauchemin and 2) Beachemin preferred to try to sign with Anaheim. I think Bob did a great job of getting Spacek when Beauchemin rejected us. Sure we could have waited, but there was a good chance that Anaheim (or someone else) signs Beauchemin and another team signs Spacek while we wait.

[Fanpuck33]

I would not sign and trade Koivu. I think the habs should have signed him for another two years, or at least one more year. Koivu was one of the only habs who gives it his all when it counts.

That right there is really an indictment against him. With a captain, that sentence needs to end before the "when it counts" part. A captain should be someone who is always giving 100% and leading by example. He should never become invisible like Saku tended to do when things weren't going well for him. Other leaders find a way to make themselves visible on the ice even on off nights, and I don't think that was something Saku was capable of doing. Whether that's his fault or the team's fault is debatable.

I think we replaced a guy who was a perfect #2 centre, with another #2 centre and will also be asking him to be a #1 centre. Gomez has not shown that he is a #1 centre. He has done nothing with the NYR to prove that he is a #1 centre, so I don't buy this arguement that Gainey has filled the long filling hole of missing a #1 centre.

Yes, this is what bugs me the most about the Gomez deal. He is another guy who is a good #2 center who will be forced into being the #1 center. When you look at their career stats, Koivu has averaged .81 ppg, while Gomez has averaged .82 ppg. This is the big upgrade at center we were looking for? Gomez has stayed healthier than Koivu, which is nice, but he is not a significant upgrade on what we've had at center for the last 10 years. Essentially, he's a younger Koivu. We upgrade because of the age, but until I see proof otherwise, that's the only significant way we've improved at center. The only difference between their career seasons is that Gomez was able to stay healthy during his.

[Chris]

You forgot to mention Gomez has 2 rings, plays on teams that every year he played has made the playoffs and his line was a big part of those wins. He is also much younger, faster.

[MK1]

I could say that for whatever reason it wasn't working with us for Higgins, one of my favourite Habs and I guy I openly championed as our next captain last season. He's not snake-bit, he can't score. that's all. But he found his niche on the lower lines, I bet he becomes an excellent 2-way winger on the third line. Maybe with us next year? "Kiss kiss, all is forgiven Chris, by the way we rented an apartment for you and your Mom, just like the Expos did with Mrs. Guerrero and her boys..."

No objection that Bob overpaid for Gomez and will now overpay him on his insane contract. But he was available, and I think Mathias Brunet pointed out in an article that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to get a guy still young, two years removed from great success, plays hard all the time, good wheels, to come into a system-oriented team like Martin will make us. Maybe it will work, and Bob sees it as a gamble much better than Vinny would have been. No argument either about not frontloading contracts, in particular Gionta making 5 million at 35 years old is worrisome.

Plex is dead meat. Jury still out on both Kosts, though A has the makings of a fine sniper and S looks to have the total skill set.

If we had signed Tanguay while injured to a healthy long-term contract I feel it would have been nearly impossible to move him. Everyone would want to see him put in a full season healthy. Thus the reason that I think Bob replaced him with Cammalleri - more durable, in addition to younger and not that much more expensive. If Bob had tried to undercut Tanguay significantly, he would have just waited for UFA status anyway. Bob really went for healthy players in a big way.

The D will be younger, two of our guys look ready now, one on the brink, a potential stud in Russia, a high-draft NCAA kid, along with Gorges and an in-prime Markov...the guys we signed will be gone as the kids start coming through the ranks. Couldn't believe that Bob didn't go for Beauchemin, but he got guys who don't miss much time at all.

One point about Bob losing all his assets for little or nothing: he can't tank, he can't give up on a playoff appearance while there is still a chance. This isn't Nashville, trading away Souray might have cost him his job, giving up last year on the playoffs during our 100th year shenanigans was political suicide. Signing then dealing Kovalev is a nice idea, but who knows what would have happened on the team had he been here? Or if he would have even been trade-able? We had one serious drama with #27 last year, when Bob saw a chance to replace him one-up with Gionta he didn't hesitate. Character over talent, I guess (not that I disliked Kovalev at all).

The problem with comparing the Gomez contract to the Lecavalier contract is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Sure Vinny is a higher cap hit (~1M) but that is pretty close to what a dominant 1C/richard trophy winner is worth. I dont think Habs fans have a problem paying someone 7.5M to be a major impact player, but most are in agreement that the Gomez deal is at least 2M/yr higher than what he has shown he's worth. That is why people are pissed. Bob just took on arguably the worst contact in hockey (now that Guerin is done), and GAVE them Higgins and our top D pick on top! For Bob's sake Gomez better be an F'ing star or else he is gonna be gone. Not because I don't like/admire the man, but because it would be icing on a cow pie of bad asset management.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I was not aware that Bob Gainey was politically ignorant

Idiot is a word derived from the Greek idiōtēs ("person lacking professional skill," "a private citizen," "individual"), from idios ("private," "one's own"). In Latin the word idiota ("ordinary person, layman") preceded the Late Latin meaning "uneducated or ignorant person." Its modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person"). The related word idiocy dates to 1487 and may have been analogously modeled on the words prophet and prophecy. The word has cognates in many other languages.

[Habitforming]

I'm sorry but Cammalleri is worth the $6M he got.

Don't forget, he scored the most goals out of all the UFA's available this year (Tied with Hossa @ 39 goals, and was 9th in the entire league.)

If Alex "I need a timeout" Kovalev gets $5+ for his performance then Mike is worth the league max

[habs rule]

@ Habs29 : I won't try to convince you, but obviously, there was something last season that made you love that team more than most of us (and more than it deserved, I'd say... That team was a MAJOR choke)

Although you certainly won't get convinced by just some random posters, let me put it out this way :

3 seasons ago, we missed the playoffs, all the main players are under contract until 2009, that squad successfully achieved to fire another good coach (After Michel Therrien some seasons ago). You know the rest of the Story, Claude Julien is now considered one of NHL's best coach. However, Gainey puts his trust in that team, fires the coach, hires Carbo as his assistant, but they miss the playoffs.

2 years ago, we finished 1st. This alone was a good reason to let us (and Gainey) think that with 2-3 add-ons, this team would be a TOP contender, nonetheless, we are a NO CONTEST vs the Flyers. NO ONE ABLE TO SCORE (take a hint already) against a goalie who is without a contract right now (i.e. not considered a legitimate starter)

Last season, Gainey goes to work, gets some reinforcement in Tanguay, Lang... However the team majorly chokes after the first half. another fire the coach event, things are starting to get suspicious. The "core" of this team might be a problem no?

Well to a majority of the fans (and to Gainey and Carbo), yes, there was something rotten in the state of Habsland.

To most observer, this team had no identity. Lots of talented players, but one north-south, the other east-west, the other circling, the other chasing the puck... too many play makers, etc, etc.

To most observer, something had to be done.

Some blame Gainey for not re-signing his asset before the season, etc.

Would he had done so, we'd be stuck with a repeat of the 09 edition for the upcoming season.

Something had to be done.

If you look at the moves "Individually", they make sure no sense. But you are more intelligent than that, you can look at the whole picture and try to see a scheme. If you don't like the whole scheme either, that's your right.

But you can't just look at Gomez and say, hmmm, I don't like that trade, but I like Cammalleri's signing.

Why?

Because they are part of the same plan.

Let me explain the plan in "order":

1. Gainey decides to change the identity of this team and to start by getting a proven winning centre.

2. Gainey decides to let Koivu walk, but to retain Komi and Kovy (and to later decide what to do with Tangs and co)

3. The strategy is to sign agents on the 1st. To be the most active mofo out there, to avoid the screw ups of the past season (Brière to name only him). So there is no "let me wait a couple of days" allowed. It's yes or no.

4. The agents must be complimentary to whoever will be the 1st line centre. After the fiasco of trying to line Kovalev and Koivu together, we want stars who will complete each others. We want to be able to have a real first line option.

-The best example is if you trade for Gomez, you can't seriously think that Tanguay will click with him, they are too identical.

Therefore it is decided that a centre MUST BE TRADED FOR BEFORE JULY 1st.

- you can't serious attract free agents without knowing who will be your 1st line centre

- you can't know who to hunt for if you don't know what type of player your first line centre will be (the gomez-tanguay example)

5. Gainey trades for Lecavalier. Barrie vetoes the trade.

6. Gainey makes several other attempts, all denied.

7. Gainey tries for Gomez. The price is steep, but it's lower (almost 1/2) than Lecavalier and is the best guy AVAILABLE. He's not trying to go cheap, he just wants the best centerman AVAILABLE on the market. Notice the word AVAILABLE. it is key.

8. Gainey goes hunting with Gomez as his main assets.

9. It works, he convinces Camm (several other suitors, all in the same ball park for $) to come here and Gionta to move his family for some $ more (4M in NJ last season is not a lot less than 5M in montreal, after taxes), Brodeur admits that Gionta will be terribly hard to replace.

10. Komi quits on us, Gainey offered slightly less than TO, but Komi accepts TO's offer without giving Gainey a chance to top it. He says in interview that it was time to move on and liked what Burke told him, etc.

11. There is no more room at forward for Kovalev who wakes up WAY TOO LATE and decides he wants to come back to MTL several hours after most of the FAs are signed throughout the league. The key here is that Kovalev could have made us miss the train if we had waited for him... and then he'd have decided to go to LA or something. (that was his talk at the moment : wait for me, L.A. is offering something tempting.)

12. Gainey replaces Komi's toughness with Hal Gill and replaces Schneider with Spacek. Komi's mobility for a big man and his leadership are not replaced.

The end result is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAM.

Not 2-3 individuals that you can look at and say : I preferred Koivu, I preferred x, y, z.

Nah.

Gainey, fed up of firing his coach, hired a new coach and FIRED THE TEAM.

Firing his team is the key there.

HE replaced it with a new one.

and he BRILLIANTLY did so.

He couldn't have done that while keeping 8 out of 10 UFA. He had to do a big great sweep.

And he had to get guys who would want to fit within a SYSTEM (i.e. Not Higgins "I'm a 40-40 guy and I'm not a 3rd line checking guy", not Kovalev, etc)

He got guys with stanley cup rings, guys with proven track records.

Will it work?

Only time will tell.

Are you allowed to be frustrated that all your favourite players are gone?

YES, TOTALLY.

Can you say Bob is stupid?

IF you know the whole story, I think Bob did exactly what had to be done, and did it the best he could with what was available.

Of course, if you think you would have done better, that's a whole different story...

but I sincerely think he couldn't have done anything else once the decision to change the team was taken. In the actual context, he couldn't wait till december to try to trade for a centre. (none would be available)

Tow things will be Gainey's judge :

-A centre moving soon, for less than Gomez's and better than Gomez

-The team being worst than the 09 edition.

excellent post

[Habsfan]

I think you are underrating Spacek here. He is certainly much better than the Komisarek we saw last year. I expect Komisarek will rebound but I am not sure he will every reach the level of 2 years ago again. Anyhow, Gainey tried to resign him and he took the same money to go elsewhere. What does that tell you?

That is simply not true. Komisarek wanted 4 million per year from the habs for 7 years and bob refused!

Not to mention that Komi's agent approached bob early on in the season, but Bob refused to negotiate during the season!

Finally, I'll point out that (according to Beachemin) 1) Bob did go after Bauchemin and 2) Beachemin preferred to try to sign with Anaheim. I think Bob did a great job of getting Spacek when Beauchemin rejected us.

I don't know where you heard that, but I heard beauchemin's interview on RDS and he said that the Habs were never really in it. They asked a few questions but never made any serious offers to Beauchemin!

Edited July 9, 2009 by Habsfan

[alexstream]

That is simply not true. Komisarek wanted 4 million per year from the habs for 7 years and bob refused!

Not to mention that Komi's agent approached bob early on in the season, but Bob refused to negotiate during the season!

to each his own version.

there are dozens of report saying that BG offered the same contract as TO's but Komi chose TO.

that horse has been beaten to death.

you think you hold the truth while everyone else think they do... agree to disagree.

[habs rule]

That is simply not true. Komisarek wanted 4 million per year from the habs for 7 years and bob refused!

Not to mention that Komi's agent approached bob early on in the season, but Bob refused to negotiate during the season!

do you have some inside knowledge. i have seen no reports like this at all except from you. do you have anything to back it up?

[Dalhabs]

The Lecavalier deal included Price and Markov to tampa. The Gomez deal was Higgins and non-proven prospect. Id take Gomez over Lecavalier if those are the options.

[Habsfan]

do you have some inside knowledge. i have seen no reports like this at all except from you. do you have anything to back it up?

Ask Tony marinaro of the Team 990. Send him an e-mail, maybe he'll answer you?

Komisarek also said it in his interview on OTR that the Habs were in it till the end.

In any case, by the time July 1st rolled along, Bob had already dropped the ball with Komi. Komi should have been signed last summer or early last season when he was injured. (he would have been more desperate to sign.)

It's the whole "I don't negotiate during the regular season" bit that I don't like with Bob.

Also, this team is a very small team. It might not be apparent early in the season, but by february and march, it'll be a much more important factor!

Edited July 9, 2009 by Habsfan

[Habsfan]

The Lecavalier deal included Price and Markov to tampa.

Really? Where did you hear that?

[Seb]

That right there is really an indictment against him. With a captain, that sentence needs to end before the "when it counts" part. A captain should be someone who is always giving 100% and leading by example. He should never become invisible like Saku tended to do when things weren't going well for him. Other leaders find a way to make themselves visible on the ice even on off nights, and I don't think that was something Saku was capable of doing. Whether that's his fault or the team's fault is debatable.

Yes, this is what bugs me the most about the Gomez deal. He is another guy who is a good #2 centre who will be forced into being the #1 centre. When you look at their career stats, Koivu has averaged .81 ppg, while Gomez has averaged .82 ppg. This is the big upgrade at centre we were looking for? Gomez has stayed healthier than Koivu, which is nice, but he is not a significant upgrade on what we've had at centre for the last 10 years. Essentially, he's a younger Koivu. We upgrade because of the age, but until I see proof otherwise, that's the only significant way we've improved at centre. The only difference between their career seasons is that Gomez was able to stay healthy during his.

While that is a fine statistic, it's an intensive stats (or it's based on a per game basis.) Looking at Games/year:

Gomez: 78.4 over 9 seasons.

Koivu: 65.75 over 12 seasons (or 60.9 over 13 seasons if you include the year he missed with cancer.)

So if we take the 0.82 and 0.81 ppg stat you previously mentioned, it gives:

Gomez: 78.4 * 0.82 = 64.3 points

Koivu: 65.75 * 0.81 = 53.3 points (or 49.3 if you include the lost season)

Factor in which guy is in decline and which guy is in his prime years, and I think you could make a clear case for Gomez. Now you can argue about money, but we didn't give him that contract.

[Peter Puck]

That is simply not true. Komisarek wanted 4 million per year from the habs for 7 years and bob refused!

Not to mention that Komi's agent approached bob early on in the season, but Bob refused to negotiate during the season!

I have seen no evidence for either of these claims. Can you provide any?

I don't know where you heard that, but I heard beauchemin's interview on RDS and he said that the Habs were never really in it. They asked a few questions but never made any serious offers to Beauchemin!

Here are 2 links to articles.

In the first the Globe and Mail quotes Beauchemin as saying:

"I was waiting for Anaheim. I had four great years there," said Beauchemin, who didn't receive an offer until last Saturday. "If they weren't going to sign me, I wanted to come back East to a hockey market and the Leafs showed the most interest."

In the second the National Post quotes Beachemin as saying that the Habs expressed some interest:

The Montreal Canadiens also showed some interest in the Sorel, Que., native, but Beauchemin admitted he was not their "No. 1 guy." Other clubs made overtures, "but the Leafs showed the most interest."

How long should the Habs have waited for a guy who was waiting to sign in Anaheim?

[Habsfan]

I have seen no evidence for either of these claims. Can you provide any?

Here are 2 links to articles.

In the first the Globe and Mail quotes Beauchemin as saying:

"I was waiting for Anaheim. I had four great years there," said Beauchemin, who didn't receive an offer until last Saturday. "If they weren't going to sign me, I wanted to come back East to a hockey market and the Leafs showed the most interest."

In the second the National Post quotes Beachemin as saying that the Habs expressed some interest:

The Montreal Canadiens also showed some interest in the Sorel, Que., native, but Beauchemin admitted he was not their "No. 1 guy." Other clubs made overtures, "but the Leafs showed the most interest."

How long should the Habs have waited for a guy who was waiting to sign in Anaheim?

Look at post # 42.

[Nilan25]

I have to say after many years of supporting Bob Gainey I have lost cpmplete confidence in him. The drafting has been sound but the trades have been abysmal. Letting Komisarek, Streit, Souray go for nothing was nothing short of bizarre. I used to admire his complete confidence in his judgement, especially his ignoring the clamouring of the French press. As a lifelong Habsfan I hope the team is better but I am not optimistic.

[Dalhabs]

Really? Where did you hear that?

Several places, swedish newspapers wrote about that, they got their info from american newspapers. Some people on this board saying the same thing. I think its about as accurate as your Komisarek info.

[habs rule]

Ask Tony marinaro of the Team 990. Send him an e-mail, maybe he'll answer you?

Komisarek also said it in his interview on OTR that the Habs were in it till the end.

In any case, by the time July 1st rolled along, Bob had already dropped the ball with Komi. Komi should have been signed last summer or early last season when he was injured. (he would have been more desperate to sign.)

It's the whole "I don't negotiate during the regular season" bit that I don't like with Bob.

Also, this team is a very small team. It might not be apparent early in the season, but by february and march, it'll be a much more important factor!

that was poor answer to a different question. This is simply not worth my time. You have no proof at all that komi wanted 4mill 7 years or any of the other stuff. You are just listening to shit.

[ehjay]

No Bob is not an idiot,

On the forum i heard many say Bob is a genius, the bob is in session.

It's always like this, a prospects-player-coach-manager in Montreal are over rated, a good streak they are

up to superstar level, a bad streak they are garbage.

If we have to learn something from all that is that Bob is human he takes good and bad decisions.

Thank you!

go :hlogo: go

In Bob I trust