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Bob Gainey is an Idiot


hab29RETIRED

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hab29retired: well you and I are never going to agree, you see the world in very black and white terms. I realise that there is a lot of grey. Bob made the best decisions he could at the time. You can disagree with them but that does not make him an idiot anymore than you are an idiot for making blanket statements with no knowledge of the facts that Bob is working with. Bob is running the franchise based on facts not rumours feelings or some other idea. As the saying goes walk a mile in my shoes before you criticize. He has an obvious plan and he is implementing it. Thank god that Bob is running this team.

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Nope. Still thing it is utter STUPIDITY to lose the core of your team without getting any return. Just the number of 1st rounders....................... lost without a return ver Price).

|first of all, you would be fired for selling your assets when they are needed in the prime of the moment! The habs didnt give up on any player before the season was over... that means Gainey in his wisdom and Habs heart still felt the team had a chance to do something

Souray was offered $ and chose his home town... I would have been pissed off had he been traded before we had our run. He did get Gorges for Rivet

Streit, was offered over 4 Mil... do you not think Gainey offered him anything? and he thought the offensive D he had in bank Valentenkos and companies were ready to make the jump....etc...

And the Free agency and the timing about this is not getting nothing for nothing... I would concentrate more on getting ready to slam Gainey about getting dead wood! or washed up players... save your hatred for that... your other points really dont make sense to me IMHO

In resume... let it go buds!

Edited by CoRvInA
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Hab29retired, you make some good points but I think you're contradicting yourself.

First, you say the Gainey needs to lock up assets long term so that if we don't want them or can't afford them later, he can trade them and get new assets back.

Then, you ask: What are we going to do if Kosty and Price break out? We blew all the cap space on free agents with long-term deals!

If Kosty requires a 5 million dollar contract in 2 years, Bob will have to trade Gionta or let Hamrlik walk, or trade Gomez, or anyone else. It isn't THAT hard to navigate under a cap. Look how the Rangers managed to toss money at Gomez, trade him for some good, young assets, and then sign Marian Gaborik for the same money.

As for your question, of why didn't we trade 10 UFA at the trade deadline, it's because we wanted to make the playoffs! Look at the comments of the players that signed with us - they see us as a legit Cup contender. Do they sign with us if we'd missed the playoffs last September? Maybe not. Then we're stuck with the same team next year. Maybe that's what you wanted (with Komi, Koivu and Higgins) but I think we're a better team now. It is extremely risky and maybe, like you say, stupid to let your players walk and bank on UFA replacing them, but Gainey pulled it off.

I don't think Gainey was expecting as much success as he did. I think he just wanted to clear out the core and restart. Remember, the only two players he even made offers to were Komisarek and Kovalev. He didn't even want Koivu or Tanguay or Schneider et al back regardless of whether we could find replacements or not. (Although in Koivu's case, we had already found our replacement, as a #1 C, at least.)

Just look at it as trading Koivu for Gomez, Tanguay for Cammalleri, Kovalev for Gionta, Kostopoulos for Moen, Komisarek, Schneider and Bouillon for Spacek, Mara and Gill, etc..

We aren't necessarily better. But Gainey's goal for this offseason was to revamp the team. Whether he was right or not, he succeeded with flying colours. The team is at least as good on paper (while getting far younger), and the fans and players are going into the season with far more excitement and optimism than we would have been had we kept the same formula as last year.

For the moment, we are winners and Bob Gainey looks very smart - or lucky. If we run into serious cap problems down the road and have to let Kosty and Price go, then you'll have a better argument, I think.

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Souray was offered $ and chose his home town... I would have been pissed off had he been traded before we had our run. He did get Gorges for Rivet

Streit, was offered over 4 Mil... do you not think Gainey offered him anything? and he thought the offensive D he had in bank Valentenkos and companies were ready to make the jump....etc...

When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

The whole point is that why weren't Streit, Souray, Komi or even Markov for the at matter (although he did resign), offered contracts during the year????? Why wouldn't you resign your players further away from July 1 as possible???? The value of a player is only going to increase the closer you get to July 1.

It makes much more sense to resign a player during the season when they may be willing to give up going to free agency with the security of a fair contract (rather then risk injury and potentially hurting their value), rather then try and resign them at the end of the year when they have nothing to lose by waiting for July 1?

It is a STUPID policy not to re-negotiate contracts during the year. Good teams and good GM's (see Detroit), get their key guys signed during or before the year, rather then risk having their assets poached by other teams.

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When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

The whole point is that why weren't Streit, Souray, Komi or even Markov for the at matter (although he did resign), offered contracts during the year????? Why wouldn't you resign your players further away from July 1 as possible???? The value of a player is only going to increase the closer you get to July 1.

It makes much more sense to resign a player during the season when they may be willing to give up going to free agency with the security of a fair contract (rather then risk injury and potentially hurting their value), rather then try and resign them at the end of the year when they have nothing to lose by waiting for July 1?

It is a STUPID policy not to re-negotiate contracts during the year. Good teams and good GM's (see Detroit), get their key guys signed during or before the year, rather then risk having their assets poached by other teams.

Welcome to the Cap world my friend.

Signing players during the season is a great thing... in theory only.

As you say they could have locked guys up early, but moving them in the offseason to make the changes you desire just doesn't work. Maybe the interested team can't take the contract you just signed with the player and the deal falls apart. Now you are stuck with that player and can't move him so your changes all go out the window for another season or worse.

Ideally, trading assets at or near the deadline is always the best option, but unfortunately that option in a cap world is rarely possible...... Ask Dany Heatley.... signed and stuck.

If everyone had the same mentality then Cammalleri, Gionta, Gill, Spacek, Moen, and Mara wouldn't have been available for UFA status and then a trade is required for each. How much of the farm would be left after getting those players.... better yet, who would we be stuck with because teams didn't want a player because of the cap hit or term length that we signed during the season?

It isn't as cut and dried and you suggest.

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When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

Do you think anyone would come here ever if they thought there was a very real chance they'd be traded immediately? There's an element of integrity and class that goes into being a GM as well, and while what you say is great in theory, we're not dealing with robots, we're dealing with real people who have real feelings. How quick would Bob be cutting his throat if he was so mercenary as to treat all his players solely like commodities?

And Bob all but admitted that his policy of not negotiating during the season did hamper him a little. I suspect he'll probably do a little more of it. That said, while the end of next season is a glaring break in his pattern, since the lockout he's been the GM who has consistently given himself plenty of moving room come UFA time. While some may think that means he's not handling his assets well, I would suggest he's actually giving himself more of a chance to compete by allowing himself the latitude to tool with his roster significantly every year. There have been more than a few in the hockey world who have indicated that Bob's maneuverability has been a great asset to the club.

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When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

The whole point is that why weren't Streit, Souray, Komi or even Markov for the at matter (although he did resign), offered contracts during the year????? Why wouldn't you resign your players further away from July 1 as possible???? The value of a player is only going to increase the closer you get to July 1.

It makes much more sense to resign a player during the season when they may be willing to give up going to free agency with the security of a fair contract (rather then risk injury and potentially hurting their value), rather then try and resign them at the end of the year when they have nothing to lose by waiting for July 1?

It is a STUPID policy not to re-negotiate contracts during the year. Good teams and good GM's (see Detroit), get their key guys signed during or before the year, rather then risk having their assets poached by other teams.

In these terms, arguably, you have reason to be pissed off. Or at least I agree with you... Yet if Gainey or any GM for that matter wants to try new horizons, would it be fair to a player to negotiate with a team when deep down the GM is just keeping you in case he doesnt find anything better? and as soon as he does he trades you... Which in al honesty is quite hard to do... Gainey cant always pull a Theodore sign and trade... I think the players involved (the 10 UFA) can be content that gainey was transparent with them... he wanted to see what was available first which would determine his direction. and surprisingly no one other than Komi was picked up on July first .... And Komi was the one gainey was dealing with before July first... I will say that Gainey should have maybe started even earlier... but that could have transpired to the rest of the team, maybe pissed them off...

I can't but remember a Kim Wilde song (You just keep me hanging on) with respect to GM's who keep players even if they would dump them in a heartbeat if they found something better LOL... Well Gainey might not have all the answers... might not make all the right choices, but he is a man of integrity and IMO he showed it... Even If I am a big Koivu and Kovy fan myself... it hurts but I can understand it now!

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Hab29retired, you make some good points but I think you're contradicting yourself.

First, you say the Gainey needs to lock up assets long term so that if we don't want them or can't afford them later, he can trade them and get new assets back.

Then, you ask: What are we going to do if Kosty and Price break out? We blew all the cap space on free agents with long-term deals!

If Kosty requires a 5 million dollar contract in 2 years, Bob will have to trade Gionta or let Hamrlik walk, or trade Gomez, or anyone else. It isn't THAT hard to navigate under a cap. Look how the Rangers managed to toss money at Gomez, trade him for some good, young assets, and then sign Marian Gaborik for the same money.

As for your question, of why didn't we trade 10 UFA at the trade deadline, it's because we wanted to make the playoffs! Look at the comments of the players that signed with us - they see us as a legit Cup contender. Do they sign with us if we'd missed the playoffs last September? Maybe not. Then we're stuck with the same team next year. Maybe that's what you wanted (with Komi, Koivu and Higgins) but I think we're a better team now. It is extremely risky and maybe, like you say, stupid to let your players walk and bank on UFA replacing them, but Gainey pulled it off.

I don't think Gainey was expecting as much success as he did. I think he just wanted to clear out the core and restart. Remember, the only two players he even made offers to were Komisarek and Kovalev. He didn't even want Koivu or Tanguay or Schneider et al back regardless of whether we could find replacements or not. (Although in Koivu's case, we had already found our replacement, as a #1 C, at least.)

Just look at it as trading Koivu for Gomez, Tanguay for Cammalleri, Kovalev for Gionta, Kostopoulos for Moen, Komisarek, Schneider and Bouillon for Spacek, Mara and Gill, etc..

We aren't necessarily better. But Gainey's goal for this offseason was to revamp the team. Whether he was right or not, he succeeded with flying colours. The team is at least as good on paper (while getting far younger), and the fans and players are going into the season with far more excitement and optimism than we would have been had we kept the same formula as last year.

For the moment, we are winners and Bob Gainey looks very smart - or lucky. If we run into serious cap problems down the road and have to let Kosty and Price go, then you'll have a better argument, I think.

what what you expect a player to say when the sign with the team??? I'm honored to be part of a rebuilding process and hope we will be able to contend in 3 years???? Gomez and Drury said the same thing when they went to the Rangers - read the artiicle on Gomez after he was traded to the Habs. Two years ago Paul Maurice when asked about the upcoming year, said he expected his team wold be a playoff contender. Did anyone believe him??? Do you honestly think we are better then the Pens, Caps, Flyers or Bruins (you have no idea how much it hurts admitting that the bruins are better).

The players signed here because the offers they received from Gainey were the highest they were going to get (expecially Giontta). Camelleri had a career year playing with one of the top 5-6 players in the league, but is highly skilled and has speed to burn, so he would probably have received at least $5m. i'm HOPING $6M over 5 years isn't going to bite the team in the butt.

There are a lot things that have to work out for us to be a playoff team, let alone a contender.

-Is Gomez really a #1 centre capable of repeating his career year, or is he the #2 (like Koivu) that he has been his whole year???

-Can Hal Gill be a shutdown defenseman like he was in the playoffs, or was his play a function of the team he was on and will he prove to be a Pylon like has been most of his career??

-Can Gionta be a 40+ goal guy (or even 35 goal) he was with Gomez a few years back, or was that just a Joe juneau/Rob Brown career year that won't be repeated??

-Will Pleks, Kostitysn and Price rebound?

I also said why don't you trade players if you don't resign them. BUt the key is to at least get your key assets signed - especially when they are at their lowest point.

After signing with the Islanders, Streit had said in an interview that he enjoyed his time in Montreal and if the habs had offered him a long-term $2.5M contract early in the year he would have resigned, but they didn't and at the end of the year he wanted to test the market.

As far as the comparing the newcomers to the outgoing players:

-I see Gomez as a slight upgrade over Koivu and double the price. I really like Gomez - would love him if wasn't expected to be a #1 and would love him even more if he was making $5M.

-Although Kovolev would always frustrate the hell out of me, I'd give him an edge over Gionnta.

-Cammelari is a definate upgrade over Tangauy who I never liked - I live in Calgary and the media hear hate the guy and if you had an oppertunity to see him in as many games as I did, it was you wouldn't be surprised.

-I like Spacek but would've preferred Beauchiman

-Hal Gill - well, he brings to mind a quote made by Howie Meeker about a Whalers player (Can't remember who it is). One of the commentaters said l"ook at the legs on (XYZ player ??), they look like logs." To which Howie Meeker replied, "Yeah - they move like logs to" To me has always seemed like a Pylon like Souray was, but without any of Souray's offensive abilities.

I think I would have been much more optimistic of the upcoming year, if at centre we had Gomez, Koivu, Pleks and Lapierre, so unless Gainey is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat and manage to move Hamrlik for another centre and cheaper/younger consistent d-man, i find it very hard to be optimistic.

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In these terms, arguably, you have reason to be pissed off. Or at least I agree with you... Yet if Gainey or any GM for that matter wants to try new horizons, would it be fair to a player to negotiate with a team when deep down the GM is just keeping you in case he doesnt find anything better? and as soon as he does he trades you... Which in al honesty is quite hard to do... Gainey cant always pull a Theodore sign and trade... I think the players involved (the 10 UFA) can be content that gainey was transparent with them... he wanted to see what was available first which would determine his direction. and surprisingly no one other than Komi was picked up on July first .... And Komi was the one gainey was dealing with before July first... I will say that Gainey should have maybe started even earlier... but that could have transpired to the rest of the team, maybe pissed them off...

I can't but remember a Kim Wilde song (You just keep me hanging on) with respect to GM's who keep players even if they would dump them in a heartbeat if they found something better LOL... Well Gainey might not have all the answers... might not make all the right choices, but he is a man of integrity and IMO he showed it... Even If I am a big Koivu and Kovy fan myself... it hurts but I can understand it now!

I think a GM has to make sure that he watches out for the future of his team, just as in any business, a manager or exec may promote someone one day and fire them the next day if times are bad - regardless of how good of an employ they were.

With respect to Theodore, I remember reading prior to the Kovulchuk draft that the 1st pick was almost traded to montreal, but montreal didn't want to give up Theodore and preferred to move Garon. I was really pissed - seeing that they finally had a chance to get a potential star. If that was a real deal on the table, i'd still be pissed. My brother and I always argued about Theodore - he loved him and I always thought he was over-rated. moving Theodore was a brilliant move, but giving him that contract was a direct result of waiting until the end of the year when the player has more leverage.

Gainey, through his policy of not negotiating during the year gives up whatever leverage he has. During the year, or prior to the contract year, a player is going to always have a fear of injury and is always going to thinking about signing a safer (fairer) long-term deal vs. heating a home run as a free agent. Management has to use that leverage to their advantage, rather then give it up and give all leverage to the player.

Had Gainey signed Theodore during the year, I doubt he would have had to sign him to the terms he did. Samething with Brisbois. Until this year with the Gionnta and Gomez (although his is inherited), I always thought Theodore and Brisebois were the worst contacts in the Habs history - both made when the player has full leverage.

Moreover, players have protected their interests by asking for NTC and signed for obscene contracts and then asked to be traded when they want (i.e. Heatley, Pronger), so I don't see why management should feel compelled to not watch out for teams interests.

Edited by hab29RETIRED
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Do you think anyone would come here ever if they thought there was a very real chance they'd be traded immediately? There's an element of integrity and class that goes into being a GM as well, and while what you say is great in theory, we're not dealing with robots, we're dealing with real people who have real feelings. How quick would Bob be cutting his throat if he was so mercenary as to treat all his players solely like commodities?

And Bob all but admitted that his policy of not negotiating during the season did hamper him a little. I suspect he'll probably do a little more of it. That said, while the end of next season is a glaring break in his pattern, since the lockout he's been the GM who has consistently given himself plenty of moving room come UFA time. While some may think that means he's not handling his assets well, I would suggest he's actually giving himself more of a chance to compete by allowing himself the latitude to tool with his roster significantly every year. There have been more than a few in the hockey world who have indicated that Bob's maneuverability has been a great asset to the club.

Did Komi care about how well he was treated by the Habs and all of the respect he was shown when he had a chance at Free Agency??? Nope, He took the best offer he could get. Even thought it meant going to a team that probably won't make the playoffs for at least his first two years there??? A GM has to manage his assets the same way to make sure he looks after the long-term interest of his team.

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Welcome to the Cap world my friend.

Signing players during the season is a great thing... in theory only.

As you say they could have locked guys up early, but moving them in the offseason to make the changes you desire just doesn't work. Maybe the interested team can't take the contract you just signed with the player and the deal falls apart. Now you are stuck with that player and can't move him so your changes all go out the window for another season or worse.

Ideally, trading assets at or near the deadline is always the best option, but unfortunately that option in a cap world is rarely possible...... Ask Dany Heatley.... signed and stuck.

If everyone had the same mentality then Cammalleri, Gionta, Gill, Spacek, Moen, and Mara wouldn't have been available for UFA status and then a trade is required for each. How much of the farm would be left after getting those players.... better yet, who would we be stuck with because teams didn't want a player because of the cap hit or term length that we signed during the season?

It isn't as cut and dried and you suggest.

I agree you can't sign all of your assets. But the point is that is inexcusable to lose as many as the habs did without a return. You can't lose your entire first line (Kovy-Koivu-Tanguay) and your #2 defencemen and not get ANYTHiNG in return. That is just plain awful asset management. Losing 10 UFA's without a return is absolute stupidity!!!

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I agree you can't sign all of your assets. But the point is that is inexcusable to lose as many as the habs did without a return. You can't lose your entire first line (Kovy-Koivu-Tanguay) and your #2 defencemen and not get ANYTHiNG in return. That is just plain awful asset management. Losing 10 UFA's without a return is absolute stupidity!!!

But there is a return on those assets - the money freed up from losing those guys went towards signing the 6 new UFA's we have now, as well as helping to pay some of Gomez's salary. In theory, some of them could've been dealt, but the return isn't absolutely nothing as you claim it to be. If those guys re-sign, we don't have the roster we have today.

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Did Komi care about how well he was treated by the Habs and all of the respect he was shown when he had a chance at Free Agency??? Nope, He took the best offer he could get. Even thought it meant going to a team that probably won't make the playoffs for at least his first two years there??? A GM has to manage his assets the same way to make sure he looks after the long-term interest of his team.

But now you're equating the GM of a team to mercenary players. One has to play by a different set of rules as GM or you're fast out of a job.

Personally, I think his asset management was spot on. At the end of his five-year plan timetable, he gave himself the maneuverability to either re-up the players or to change the club substantially.

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seems to me, those who consider Gainey to be an idiot of a GM, are really most upset about his policy of not negotiating during the season. if that's his only flaw, then there are almost 29 other teams out there who would consider Gainey an upgrade on their GM situations.

philosophies & principles are not without flaw - but - i'm thankful for a GM that has them and sticks to them. i believe most of the time, a principled GM is going to be a winner. had all those UFA-eligible players man-upped and met Gainey's challenge to have career years and brought a Stanley Cup to Montreal in our 100th year, they all would have been hot commodities on the open market and either got their money from other teams or would have gotten their share of the millions we just spent on Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, et al.

but, even in their contract years they couldn't get it together - so now they (& their cancer) are disbursed throughout the league and a new core & a new era of Habs has begun.

it's a roll of the dice, bob - but it all makes sense to me.

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habs 29: your theory only holds water if you believe that we wanted to sign these guys got turned down hand had to go find replacements. Bob decided he could not blow the team up at the trade deadline and trade everyone to get assets so what he did was trade the team for cap dollars. He chose not to sign these guys cause had he signed them his hands are tied. he wanted the freedom to go get the guys he wanted not what someone was willing to give him on trade. He wanted a fresh start so he DELIBERATELY did not sign them. He wanted cash. Easier to deal with. As to losing komi if you have a policy or not about negotiating during the season. The one thing sure to cause problems in the dressing room is to negotiate with one guy and not the others, if you have policy you stick to it. He would have probably liked to have tied up komi but can you imagine the uproar if he signs Komi and tells koivu etc wait till the end of the year? Sorry you are just wrong on this one.

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Most people agree that Gainey's policy of rarely negotiating during the season is a bad one. Gainey himself said it wasn't ideal and gave the impression that he would change it. ...Is that enough to make him an idiot?

He let the core go on purpose. He blew up the team. Fired the team. He didn't accidentally lose 10 players. He only offered two of them contracts! His goal was to toss away these players and find new, younger, more durable ones. This wasn't an ordinary case. You are totally right about Streit though, and maybe Komisarek. We lost an asset there. But Tanguay, Koivu? They never even received contract offers from Bob! It isn't a case of sleeping at the wheel and letting them hit free agency, it's a case of choosing to move on and let these players play elsewhere.

There are a lot things that have to work out for us to be a playoff team, let alone a contender.

-Is Gomez really a #1 centre capable of repeating his career year, or is he the #2 (like Koivu) that he has been his whole year???

-Can Hal Gill be a shutdown defenseman like he was in the playoffs, or was his play a function of the team he was on and will he prove to be a Pylon like has been most of his career??

-Can Gionta be a 40+ goal guy (or even 35 goal) he was with Gomez a few years back, or was that just a Joe juneau/Rob Brown career year that won't be repeated??

-Will Pleks, Kostitysn and Price rebound?

I also said why don't you trade players if you don't resign them. BUt the key is to at least get your key assets signed - especially when they are at their lowest point.

As far as the comparing the newcomers to the outgoing players:

-I see Gomez as a slight upgrade over Koivu and double the price. I really like Gomez - would love him if wasn't expected to be a #1 and would love him even more if he was making $5M.

-Although Kovolev would always frustrate the hell out of me, I'd give him an edge over Gionnta.

-Cammelari is a definate upgrade over Tangauy who I never liked - I live in Calgary and the media hear hate the guy and if you had an oppertunity to see him in as many games as I did, it was you wouldn't be surprised.

-I like Spacek but would've preferred Beauchiman

-Hal Gill - well, he brings to mind a quote made by Howie Meeker about a Whalers player (Can't remember who it is). One of the commentaters said l"ook at the legs on (XYZ player ??), they look like logs." To which Howie Meeker replied, "Yeah - they move like logs to" To me has always seemed like a Pylon like Souray was, but without any of Souray's offensive abilities.

I think I would have been much more optimistic of the upcoming year, if at centre we had Gomez, Koivu, Pleks and Lapierre, so unless Gainey is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat and manage to move Hamrlik for another centre and cheaper/younger consistent d-man, i find it very hard to be optimistic.

Most of the things you list are things that would make us Cup contenders, not that things that would make us a playoff team. Gionta scoring 40 goals, Gomez repeating his career year, Price, Plekanec and Kostitsyn rebounding? If these happen, we're one of the top teams in the league.

@the Gill one - does our success really depend on Gill being an expert shutdown d-man? he's like our 5th D!

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When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

The whole point is that why weren't Streit, Souray, Komi or even Markov for the at matter (although he did resign), offered contracts during the year????? Why wouldn't you resign your players further away from July 1 as possible???? The value of a player is only going to increase the closer you get to July 1.

It makes much more sense to resign a player during the season when they may be willing to give up going to free agency with the security of a fair contract (rather then risk injury and potentially hurting their value), rather then try and resign them at the end of the year when they have nothing to lose by waiting for July 1?

It is a STUPID policy not to re-negotiate contracts during the year. Good teams and good GM's (see Detroit), get their key guys signed during or before the year, rather then risk having their assets poached by other teams.

I know and fully understand what you are saying. However look at Bob though and his career. Bob is a nice guy who has a lot of class. Signing guys who want to play for you for cheap only to turn around and send them packing is a classless thing to do. Understand now why Bob isnt into it? :D

When your team is playoff bound it is also classless to trade away some of your top players just because they could potentially leave as free agents in the off season. At some point a team needs to try to get as far as possible and that wont happen if your liquidating your top assets at the trade deadline because they might walk. SUre Souray and Stiret walked for nothing, but had Bob traded them at the deadlines I'm pretty sure more poeple would be even more pissed off if the Habs failed to make the playoffs those years because of it.

I also agree that not doing contract negotiations during the season is a bad move but even that makes more hockey sense than wasting 50% of draft picks on drafting NCAA guys who are off to college for 4+ years and then still need at least 1 year in the AHL. :wacko:

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I also agree that not doing contract negotiations during the season is a bad move but even that makes more hockey sense than wasting 50% of draft picks on drafting NCAA guys who are off to college for 4+ years and then still need at least 1 year in the AHL. :wacko:

Doesn't matter the topic, does it? You'll find a way to sneak in a comment about drafting NCAA players. :P

Post: "Carey Price sucks"

Sir_Boagalott: "You know what really sucks? Wasting 50% of draft picks on drafting NCAA guys who are off to college for 4+ years and then still need at least 1 year in the AHL."

Post: "I have leukemia."

Sir_Boagalott: "Could be worse... you could be wasting 50% of draft picks on drafting NCAA guys who are off to college for 4+ years and then still need at least 1 year in the AHL."

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I know and fully understand what you are saying. However look at Bob though and his career. Bob is a nice guy who has a lot of class. Signing guys who want to play for you for cheap only to turn around and send them packing is a classless thing to do. Understand now why Bob isnt into it? :D

When your team is playoff bound it is also classless to trade away some of your top players just because they could potentially leave as free agents in the off season. At some point a team needs to try to get as far as possible and that wont happen if your liquidating your top assets at the trade deadline because they might walk. SUre Souray and Stiret walked for nothing, but had Bob traded them at the deadlines I'm pretty sure more poeple would be even more pissed off if the Habs failed to make the playoffs those years because of it.

I also agree that not doing contract negotiations during the season is a bad move but even that makes more hockey sense than wasting 50% of draft picks on drafting NCAA guys who are off to college for 4+ years and then still need at least 1 year in the AHL. :wacko:

you keep talking about ncaa drafts being a waste go read this article maybe it will give you some insight even though it is old it is still true. http://www1.hockeysfuture.com/articles/606...ollege_players/

Edited by habs rule
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Is Gomez worth more then double then Koivu?????? I think Koivu will end up with around the same amount of points as Gomez - possibly more. If we were going to take Gomez's ridicoulous salary, Sather should have had to sweeten the pot, NOT have Gainey give up Higgins and two good defensive prospects!!!!???

You're right about this. We should have gotten a first rounder or something back for how much we gave to take on that ridiculous contract. It's a bitch of a deal, and we shouldn't have to take on someone else's mistake. But Gomez is a reliable player (had a bad season last year) and a proven winner. New blood, and a new team character. I'm looking forward to cheering for him, and hopefully he has a solid 70 point season. It would be awesome if it was Gionta 65-70, Gomez 70-75 and Camellari 75-80, and those are reasonable estimates hopefully. These players are also less prone to injury than our last group of key players. My main worry is that we've wrapped up so much money in these assets which are not top-level elite, and teams like Toronto and Boston right now will have roughly the same money invested in slightly better players. Like Chara, Savard, Bergeron, Kreijci is better than our top four players most likely. And Toronto has their money invested pretty well so far, depending on how their defensive signings perform (hopefully they suck).

Is Gionta better then Kovy??? Given Giontta's size and having fellow smurfs Cammelleri and Gomez, I'd take Kovy. Gionnta is not worth more then $4M tops, personally, i wouldn't spend more then $3.5M.

I'm inclined to agree with you here. I really wanted Kovy back. But the flipside is the new team character, and hopefully guys like Plex and the Titsies will benefit from better leadership. I loved and will continue to love Kovy, but he was the most frustrating player I've ever cheered for. I hope he continues to ###### with Toronto and Boston.

I'd take Komi over Spacek or Gill anyday - even at $5M and I'd definatley would have tried to get Beauchiman - who actually expressed an interest to play for Montreal then either of the guys that Gainey signed.

I agree about Beachemin, that contract looks good and I would have even given him another year at that money. But maybe Burke had the inside track, and it's not like there are many other veteran Quebecois here to take the spotlight. Spacek I was unsure of, but apparently he led Buffalo in minutes, and my friend heard Jason Pominville saying how sad he was to see him go and that he's a player that any team would want. He'll play all roles better than Komi, who sucked like hell last year. Gill can't have a worse season than Komi last year, and is at much less money. I laughed at this signing too, but the guy just won a cup and is a big defender who can pull his own weight. We have some big defensemen in Gill, Mara, O'Byrne and Hamrlik to pound on Toronto and Boston's smaller forwards.

Cammelleri is a good signing, but NOT at $6M - Not worth it more then $5M.

You got to dole out big bucks to lure the good players. If Camelleri has 80 points in 3 or 4 of those seasons, the signing is decent. He's done that twice in his career and is at the beginning of his prime. Scored 39 goals last year, more than any Habs for a damn long time. And hopefully he'll look good with whatever wingers/centre he's playing with, I bet Gomez could get a lot of assists setting him up. Our skilled guys are now more tenacious and hard-nosed, even if they're small.

As far as Tangauy goes, i criticized the trade last year, seeing first hand in Calgary how useless the guy was in key situations. Yes if healthy he should have gotten 70-75 points, but he is a SOFT perimeter player who couldn't even have checked Steve Bégin and would have ended up as a minus player if he was asked to cover a non-scorer like Begin. But becuase he is french, most loved the signing. But Gainey should have made an effort to sign him to a lower contract, if only to be trade him and get some return back for the two draft picks given up.

Yeah, sucks to give a first-rounder for stupid Tanguay. At least he's gone.

Even if Gainey was going to spend the obsene money he did on his 5 free agent signed on July 1, Koivu should have been brought back. I think we could have gotten him for $6M to $6.5M for two years. I would much rather have had Gomez, Koivu, Pleks and Lapierre as centres. As it is, who knows if Pleks will get more in arbitration then what Koivu signed for. having three small centers (Gomez, Pleks, Metropolit) is abosute stupidity!!! And I don't think Chips is a viable option.

Our overall team size is much better, and our players are tougher. The Koivu era had to end, enough is enough. Good luck to him and Anaheim made a good signing, but we need a new beginning.

Seeing that Koivu signed for $3.25M make me sicker then seeing Komi goto the Make beliefs for $4.5M.

Those are both good deals. I was disappointed when I heard the terms for the Komi deal. But, he had such a pathetic bitch year last season, got humiliated by Lucic and pretty much everybody, and burnt his bridges in Montreal. F- the dirty asshole, and I look forward to Stewart and Laraque pummeling his face. And finally, I'll be happy to see Lucic kick his ass, if the POS ever accepts a fight with him again.

I can't think of any recent GM that has mismanaged his assets as badly as Gainey has with the exception of Milbury. This is going to be a HARD season to watch and if I didn't bleed the habs colors I'd take my wife's advice and find a new team. As it is, I told her, I'd get a new wife before I get a new team :wacko:

Whoa, whoa whoa. Milbury?? Come on man, you're overreacting. I was sort of disappointed and angry at first, but I've come to see it in a positive light, and am now pretty happy with how the off-season has gone. Sure, we lost a lot for nothing, but we gained a lot for nothing too. Most of our acquisitions were UFAs. The Gomez trade doesn't look too great, but hopefully he has good production while here. And wins us a Cup! Hope springs eternal, and we're done with the past era of no playoffs or piddly first or second round exits, hopefully. I think we should challenge for home ice, maybe end up around 5th or 6th. Exciting times, a new team to cheer for! Young players that will hopefully improve instead of regress, new veterans and guys on the ice at the end of games. We still have our best player, Markov, and the team has definitely improved around him. A lot depends on Carey Price, but hopefully he's pumped about the new look of the team. Both our defense and forwards have improved, check this tentative lineup:

Gionta Gomez Kostitsyn

Paccioretty Camelleri Plekanec

S Kostitsyn Lapierre Latendresse

Moen Metropolit Stewart

-Laraque, (Weber), Chipchura

Markov Spacek

Hamrlik Gill

Mara Gorges

-Weber, O'Byrne

Price

Halak (who we better give a real chance to if Price sucks again)

That is potentially an really exciting lineup. Imagine if they all had good-decent years! Young guys continue to improve again, veterans live up to their billing. There's size and skill in this lineup, and tenacity. Exciting times! :hlogo:

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Tim Thomas - a grossly overrated goalie - just had his best possible year. He plays in an airtight system that permits / covers his wanderings, poor puck play, and non-clutch goaltending. Carey Price, with a team that had given up on him, his top defender out, and no cohesive system evident, had his worst year probably at any level (I'm guessing, might have had a rough patch when he was 7 years old). I'm thinking that Price makes a major rebound.

Martin comes and knows how to implement a system and command respect. We are now loaded with puck possession guys. We have a d corps that can skate and pass. We have a team that looks very durable - probably the main reason we got Spacek / Gill over Beauchemin. We will be a much, much better team than last year, I am really believing.

And no, we didn't lose assets for nothing. Assets equalled cap space equalled taking on Gomez' contract equalled luring very good free agents. A roundabout way, but it worked - for now.

Why do people think Cammalleri is overpaid??? He proved out-and-out in LA he is the real deal.

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When did I say that you should necessarily be selling of your assets????? You could resign them DURING the year and move them in the off season if did want to make changes in personnel.

The whole point is that why weren't Streit, Souray, Komi or even Markov for the at matter (although he did resign), offered contracts during the year????? Why wouldn't you resign your players further away from July 1 as possible???? The value of a player is only going to increase the closer you get to July 1.

It makes much more sense to resign a player during the season when they may be willing to give up going to free agency with the security of a fair contract (rather then risk injury and potentially hurting their value), rather then try and resign them at the end of the year when they have nothing to lose by waiting for July 1?

It is a STUPID policy not to re-negotiate contracts during the year. Good teams and good GM's (see Detroit), get their key guys signed during or before the year, rather then risk having their assets poached by other teams.

Okay, suppose Gainey had locked up his 10 free agents. Lets say

Komisarek 5 years at $5M/yr

Tanguay 3 years at $4.5M/yr

Koivu 2 years at $4M/yr

Kovalev 3 years at $4.5M/yr

Schneider 2 years at $2.5M/yr.

These numbers are of course guesses but I think they are pretty reasonable. Anyhow the exact values are not vital to my point. In fact I probably should add $1M/year to the first 4 and add Robert Lang for 2 years at $4.5M per year since you wanted Gainey to sign them during the season

(say in November) when we had just completed a very good season and were looking like a top contender again. He shouldn't risk having them poached by other teams as you say.

Now we want to revamp during this off season. You say Gainey did great by resigning them and he should now move them for some assets. Let's see how that works.

Well we get to keep Komisarek, I think he'll probably rebound and be a good player. But he had a very bad year for us last year.

What about the others?

Given the interest in Koivu and Kovalev, I doubt we could move either of them. Maybe. Probably we have to sweeten the deal with some pick/prospect to get someone to take each of them off our hands.

Its clear now that no team is going to pay for Tanguay nor Schneider. That's okay if we package Tanguay with Weber some team may take those two for nothing. Maybe we could trade Schneider and a 2nd round pick for a 3rd round pick to some team like the Islanders.

So we trade a few of our picks and/or prospects, buy a few guys out and we can be rid of the guys that Gainey let walk. Getting rid of Lang, Kostopolous, Dandenault, etc. is going to cost of even more. Or we can keep our picks and prospects, keep our 10 (or 5) free agents and say goodbye to all the new UFA's Gainey signed. Maybe we could even have afforded and attracted Hall Gill or Mara without letting our core walk - probably not if Gainey resigned everyone early in the season.

Edited by Peter Puck
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Okay, suppose Gainey had locked up his 10 free agents. Lets say

Komisarek 5 years at $5M/yr

Tanguay 3 years at $4.5M/yr

Koivu 2 years at $4M/yr

Kovalev 3 years at $4.5M/yr

Schneider 2 years at $2.5M/yr.

These numbers are of course guesses but I think they are pretty reasonable. Anyhow the exact values are not vital to my point. In fact I probably should add $1M/year to the first 4 and add Robert Lang for 2 years at $4.5M per year since you wanted Gainey to sign them during the season

(say in November) when we had just completed a very good season and were looking like a top contender again. He shouldn't risk having them poached by other teams as you say.

Now we want to revamp during this off season. You say Gainey did great by resigning them and he should now move them for some assets. Let's see how that works.

Well we get to keep Komisarek, I think he'll probably rebound and be a good player. But he had a very bad year for us last year.

What about the others?

Given the interest in Koivu and Kovalev, I doubt we could move either of them. Maybe. Probably we have to sweeten the deal with some pick/prospect to get someone to take each of them off our hands.

Its clear now that no team is going to pay for Tanguay nor Schneider. That's okay if we package Tanguay with Weber some team may take those two for nothing. Maybe we could trade Schneider and a 2nd round pick for a 3rd round pick to some team like the Islanders.

So we trade a few of our picks and/or prospects, buy a few guys out and we can be rid of the guys that Gainey let walk. Getting rid of Lang, Kostopolous, Dandenault, etc. is going to cost of even more. Or we can keep our picks and prospects, keep our 10 (or 5) free agents and say goodbye to all the new UFA's Gainey signed. Maybe we could even have afforded and attracted Hall Gill or Mara without letting our core walk - probably not if Gainey resigned everyone early in the season.

logical reality. I love it.

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