The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/21599 "Changing the culture." "Fitness levels not what they need to be." "Playing a more physically demanding system" than beofre, based on (imagine that!!!) support for the puck carrier and short, crisp passes. Etc., etc., etc.. It seems obvious that in Martin's estimation this team has been allowed to wallow in bad working habits, poor conditioning, and outright laziness. "Changing the culture" amounts to a resounding condemnation of the previous coaching regime and (perhaps) team leadership. Maybe Martin is full of BS, but between a guy with years of experience as coach/GM, and a great player who had one terrific season as coach and two outright disasters, I know whose coaching opinion I respect more. I said at the time that any other organization would have fired Carbo long before Gainey did. And I wonder what all those who leapt to Carbo's defence and painted him as the tragic martyr to Gainey's folly will think if/when they actually see a team playing a DISCIPLINED AND EFFECTIVE SYSTEM out there on the ice. Edited September 23, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/21599 "Changing the culture." "Fitness levels not what they need to be." "Playing a more physically demanding system" than beofre, based on (imagine that!!!) support for the puck carrier and short, crisp passes. Etc., etc., etc.. It seems obvious that in Martin's estimation this team has been allowed to wallow in bad working habits, poor conditioning, and outright laziness. "Changing the culture" amounts to a resounding condemnation of the previous coaching regime and (perhaps) team leadership. Maybe Martin is full of BS, but between a guy with years of experience as coach/GM, and a great player who had one terrific season as coach and two outright disasters, I know whose coaching opinion I respect more. I said at the time that any other organization would have fired Carbo long before Gainey did. And I wonder what all those who leapt to Carbo's defence and painted him as the tragic martyr to Gainey's folly will think if/when they actually see a team playing a DISCIPLINED AND EFFECTIVE SYSTEM out there on the ice. and there is the little matter of a complete changeover in veteran players, who maybe did not listen or heed the coaches advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think some of Martin's themes are simply posturing, and keeping the players focused. But it's been proven many times that repetition breeds habits, habits breed instincts, etc. So Martin is keeping things simple and focused on the task at hand. If anything, it all goes back to the communication issues that Carbo apparently had. Here, it's crystal clear what Martin wants/demands, whereas apparently with Carbo it was as clear as mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 No kidding, i'm not sure how that really throws Carbo under the bus or makes him look bad. I have been saying the same thing for years, before Carbo took over. Carbo WAS the only coach in the last 15 years to have 1 real good season. It was a complete culture of laziness, on and of ice problems, rather then looking back i would just look forward to the habs turning things around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Aaah, Carbo and all those days off he gave to his players. Total nonsense, practice makes perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Personally I still strongly beleive that Carbo will be a great coach, one day. Its unfortunate that Carbo didnt really have any coaching experience at a high level, and being the Habs coach isnt something that can be learned on the fly. When is the last time the Habs actually had a coach with as much NHL experience that Martin has? Since 93 there has been a lot of inexperienced Habs coaches. So far I think the primary difference between Carbo and Martin is that Martin tells and explains to his players where and what he wants them to to. Carbo was just too infamous with his lack of communication. I beleive Carbo would say things to his players that were to vague, like "we are going to use the trap", and I'm pretty sure Martin tells his players specific things like where he wants them to be standing, what they're supposed to do while there, and then says thats a trap. Thats a huge fundamental coaching difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/21599 "Changing the culture." "Fitness levels not what they need to be." "Playing a more physically demanding system" than beofre, based on (imagine that!!!) support for the puck carrier and short, crisp passes. Etc., etc., etc.. It seems obvious that in Martin's estimation this team has been allowed to wallow in bad working habits, poor conditioning, and outright laziness. "Changing the culture" amounts to a resounding condemnation of the previous coaching regime and (perhaps) team leadership. Maybe Martin is full of BS, but between a guy with years of experience as coach/GM, and a great player who had one terrific season as coach and two outright disasters, I know whose coaching opinion I respect more. I said at the time that any other organization would have fired Carbo long before Gainey did. And I wonder what all those who leapt to Carbo's defence and painted him as the tragic martyr to Gainey's folly will think if/when they actually see a team playing a DISCIPLINED AND EFFECTIVE SYSTEM out there on the ice. Carbo is a good guy with a strong work ethic and who is VERY demanding of his palyers. He expects a lot. My understanding now is that he assumed that his palyers were Professional athletes, that they were disciplined, had a strong work ethic, etc JUST LIKE HE WAS AS A PLAYER. He didn't know, unlike Jacques Martin, who's been a coach throughout the 90's and 00's that "modern athletes" pretend they are rockstars and NEED to be spoonfed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yeah, not trying to demonize Carbo. (And I don't think Martin is either, necessarily). But whether or not he "struggled to communicate" or just erroneously "assumed" that players were MEN like he was/is and didn't need to have their hands held, the net result was apparently a lazy, out of shape squad. Chris may be right that Carbo inherited a mess; but if so then his job was presumably to fix it. Water under the bridge, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yeah, not trying to demonize Carbo. (And I don't think Martin is either, necessarily). But whether or not he "struggled to communicate" or just erroneously "assumed" that players were MEN like he was/is and didn't need to have their hands held, the net result was apparently a lazy, out of shape squad. Chris may be right that Carbo inherited a mess; but if so then his job was presumably to fix it. Water under the bridge, I guess. I can't blame him. You look at a kid like Higgins, out of University and you say : Heck, I think I'm better off having that guy take some lead in my locker room and show the way, rather than trying to be their fathers and be "annoying". Unfortunately, that guy ends up being a total wreck and nearly a negative influence, despite offseason yoga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yeah, not trying to demonize Carbo. (And I don't think Martin is either, necessarily). But whether or not he "struggled to communicate" or just erroneously "assumed" that players were MEN like he was/is and didn't need to have their hands held, the net result was apparently a lazy, out of shape squad. Chris may be right that Carbo inherited a mess; but if so then his job was presumably to fix it. Water under the bridge, I guess. Carbo tried to treat his players as men and with respect. That is probably the biggest mistake he made. I think the real problems with last years team have mostly left the city. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. These are professional athletes and if they were lazy and out of shape then then they all got what they deserve a one way ticket to a lower paycheque and in some cases no paycheque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Personally I still strongly beleive that Carbo will be a great coach, one day. Its unfortunate that Carbo didnt really have any coaching experience at a high level, and being the Habs coach isnt something that can be learned on the fly. When is the last time the Habs actually had a coach with as much NHL experience that Martin has? Since 93 there has been a lot of inexperienced Habs coaches. So far I think the primary difference between Carbo and Martin is that Martin tells and explains to his players where and what he wants them to to. Carbo was just too infamous with his lack of communication. I beleive Carbo would say things to his players that were to vague, like "we are going to use the trap", and I'm pretty sure Martin tells his players specific things like where he wants them to be standing, what they're supposed to do while there, and then says thats a trap. Thats a huge fundamental coaching difference. I think before people get all carried away with how Carbonneau did as opposed to Martin, we should wait and see how the team does during this coming year. If we see a definite improvement, then we can put at least part of the blame on Carbonneau. However, if it's the same old same old, then we can put the blame squarely on Gainey. But I do think it's too early to be making the broad statements that some people are making here right now. - Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think before people get all carried away with how Carbonneau did as opposed to Martin, we should wait and see how the team does during this coming year. If we see a definite improvement, then we can put at least part of the blame on Carbonneau. However, if it's the same old same old, then we can put the blame squarely on Gainey. But I do think it's too early to be making the broad statements that some people are making here right now. - Jack But the personnel are wildly different. So even then we'd be comparing apples and oranges; they're not coaching the same guys. In other words, who is to say that Carbo wouldn't have had great results with these guys, any more than Martin would have had better results with the previous bunch? If Martin bombs it "proves" nothing about Carbo. My point is that the new coach claims that the team has root and branch issues with work ethic, discipline, and professionalism. This suggests that Martin would give Carbo a failing grade. Judging by what we saw on the ice, and considering the respective levels of experience of both coaches, Martin is probably right - although it's possible these are self-serving PR messages by him, or else a strategy for motivating players and getting more out of them. Was it all Carbo's fault? Seems unlikely, but the captain deserves some blame when the ship sinks and you wouldn't have known that from the "Saint Carbo the Martyr" crowd last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think Carbo just made to many assumptions, (ex saying lets trap, and beleiving they would just know what to do) and the team was just to young and inexperienced for that kind of behavior, especially when several of the veterans had bad work ethic habits of laziness. Inexperienced coach with an inexperienced team isnt a recipe for success. Martin is also changing the system. His oft-repeated mantra of puck possession means we'll be seeing fewer stretch passes. D'oh, I was hoping it would be part of their system, long break out passes. I'm still shocked that teams havent tried to maximize the long pass for break aways. The 2 line pass violation has been gone now for several seasons and I have yet to see a team try to capitalize on the new rule change. Though I fully understand Martins point that he doesnt want players doing nothing out by the blue line trying to cherry pick constantly. The Habs are a team that has speed and skill so I would definitely like for them to try to take advantage of that by doing long break away passes when they get puck possession deep in their own zone but not until they have puck possession. jackp, I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just giving possible explanations and suggesting that Martin will be a lot more vocal about what he wants every player to be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 D'oh, I was hoping it would be part of their system, long break out passes. I'm still shocked that teams havent tried to maximize the long pass for break aways. The 2 line pass violation has been gone now for several seasons and I have yet to see a team try to capitalize on the new rule change. They do defend it. That's why we didn't see a ton of breakaways by our guys last year, but a lot of neutral zone turnovers. We had a lot of D-men that were amongst the league leaders in turnovers. Why is that? Our forwards weren't anywhere near them. They were up ice. Guess what? The other D are now defending the long pass, playing in between the red and their own blue line. Have support guys near the d-man to help get around the initial forecheck. The d-men are backed off a little so there's room to skate through the neutral zone. Watch out for guys stepping up and making open ice hits. Gomez is great at carrying the puck through the neutral zone. How many times did we have forwards do that last year? They all just sat and waited for Markov to either pass it to them at the blue line or until he dumped it in from centre. It was amazingly predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 well jackp it is nice that no matter what happens you've got someone lined up to take the blame. I think mr. Gainey put the blame right where it belonged when he sent 10 or 11 ufa's down the road. I don't think he was blaming the coach even though he had to fire him. Carbo got some bad lemons and did not have the experience to make lemonade. He will be a good coach if he gets another chance. lets remember that Julien couldn't therrien couldn't vigneau couldn't NO coach in the last 10 years has been able to get those slugs to work and play. At least Carbo got one good year out of them nobody else could not even Bob Gainey. They say you can't fire the team, Bob did. nuff said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I read the article. Martin busting Sergei Kostitsyn's balls. You think Carbo hasn't tried that 100 times before? Everybody knew the players were lazy, the atmosphere was bad, the work ethics werent what the should have bee. Everybody knew it, Carbo included. Martin has one thing Carbo never had: vets who can set an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakiqc Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I read the article. Martin busting Sergei Kostitsyn's balls. You think Carbo hasn't tried that 100 times before? Everybody knew the players were lazy, the atmosphere was bad, the work ethics werent what the should have bee. Everybody knew it, Carbo included. Martin has one thing Carbo never had: vets who can set an example. Koivu? Koivu is an enigma to me. He always played 110%. Yet, most of the time the team didn't seem to follow him. Kovalev? I agree he was not an example at all. He pretends to be someone he's not and someone he's NEVER been. I think Kovalev brought much more bad than good to this team. I'm thrilled with the fresh blood here and was very excited seeing Coach Martin yell at S.Kost. Video available on http://www.rds.ca/ click on -> "Sergei subit les foudres de son entraîneur" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 They do defend it. That's why we didn't see a ton of breakaways by our guys last year, but a lot of neutral zone turnovers. We had a lot of D-men that were amongst the league leaders in turnovers. Why is that? Our forwards weren't anywhere near them. They were up ice. Guess what? The other D are now defending the long pass, playing in between the red and their own blue line. Have support guys near the d-man to help get around the initial forecheck. The d-men are backed off a little so there's room to skate through the neutral zone. Watch out for guys stepping up and making open ice hits. Gomez is great at carrying the puck through the neutral zone. How many times did we have forwards do that last year? They all just sat and waited for Markov to either pass it to them at the blue line or until he dumped it in from centre. It was amazingly predictable. I agree that the Habs didnt have many break away goals but the did have numerous break away chances, just they never seemed to capitalize on them. I definitely agree with what you say aboot Gomez and the lack of forwards last year carrying the puck through the neutral zone. I was always frustrated seeing the habs do dump and chase, they werent designed/drafted to be a dump and chase team. The Habs have way more speed and skill they shouldnt be wasting on doing the dump and chase. I think it has to do with what I always say about them always wanting to race to the goal line. This year Gomez, Gionta, and Cammallerri all know its not a race to goal line. Laps was the only 1 last year who seemed to know this and most people here dont think he has any offensive potential. well jackp it is nice that no matter what happens you've got someone lined up to take the blame. I think mr. Gainey put the blame right where it belonged when he sent 10 or 11 ufa's down the road. I don't think he was blaming the coach even though he had to fire him. Carbo got some bad lemons and did not have the experience to make lemonade. He will be a good coach if he gets another chance. lets remember that Julien couldn't therrien couldn't vigneau couldn't NO coach in the last 10 years has been able to get those slugs to work and play. At least Carbo got one good year out of them nobody else could not even Bob Gainey. They say you can't fire the team, Bob did. nuff said I'm not totally convinced that Koivu etc was the entire problem though. I think it was more like having an young inexperienced team combined with an inexperienced coach. All of those coaches in Montreal had young inexperienced teams with aging vets past their primes, no super stars, etc. Its ture that all of them have had more success since coaching the Habs but all 3 have also had more mature teams with a lot more talented players. That definitely helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Puck support and speed has made Detroit a dangerous team for 15 years. I love the Martin quote. The stretch pass can work, but it's high risk. This team is way too small for dump and chase. Puck possession, support, and speed should suit the stature of this team nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Carbo got some bad lemons and did not have the experience to make lemonade. This just about says it all. Koivu obviously wasn't the problem in terms of work ethic and commitment. Any fool can see that Koivu exemplified those virtues (and I'm sick of people confusing Koivu's limitations as a 1st-line C with issues of character or "leadership"). He was likely part of the rebellion against Carbo, though, which didn't help - although when it comes to player rebellions against coaches we can't automatically assume the players are wrong. If Carbo can't explain systems or teach young players, then players are right to get him out of there. Yeah, much of the Habs' game last season was ridiculous, including that lazy milling around the blueline, the Canada-sized gap between forwards and D in the defensive zone, routinely bungled dump-ins, predictable reliance on the long pass, etc., etc.. It's enough to make you want to puke just remembering it. Martin determined to root out all of that and good on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Carbo tried to treat his players as men and with respect. That is probably the biggest mistake he made. I think the real problems with last years team have mostly left the city. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. These are professional athletes and if they were lazy and out of shape then then they all got what they deserve a one way ticket to a lower paycheque and in some cases no paycheque. I don't think that's fair to the players. Don't forget most of them are still in their 20's, they are essentially just kids. They made it to the NHL doing what they new how to do, and they just continued to do that. Can you blame them? What they are learning now is that pro hockey requires a much bigger commitment. As soon as Martin drills that into their heads, they will be okay. It's not like we have any real bad apples. They all seem to have their head in the right place. And before I get the 'Kostitysn' reply, let me point out that Andrei hasn't done too badly, definitely not as bad as fans would have you to believe. Sergei is still a kid and only has one full season under his belt. Why he's already being written off, I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I mainly blame the room, not the coach. That said, it is possible that a different coaching style would have fit the room better, or a different team would have fit Carbo better. I am not convinced that the primary difference is coaching (yet, too little time). The primary difference is a whole new room of Vets who have not only leadership, but apparently have better attitudes. Gainey changed so many guys that there are no "cliques" left and everyone is trying to fit in and be a good team mate. We will see if that hold 6 months from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I don't think that's fair to the players. Don't forget most of them are still in their 20's, they are essentially just kids. They made it to the NHL doing what they new how to do, and they just continued to do that. Can you blame them? What they are learning now is that pro hockey requires a much bigger commitment. As soon as Martin drills that into their heads, they will be okay. It's not like we have any real bad apples. They all seem to have their head in the right place. And before I get the 'Kostitysn' reply, let me point out that Andrei hasn't done too badly, definitely not as bad as fans would have you to believe. Sergei is still a kid and only has one full season under his belt. Why he's already being written off, I have no idea. Somehow i think you misunderstood my post. The guys that Bob let go were not in their 20's they were the vets and leaders of this team. they all had 4 or 5 different coaches and the results did not vary. Bob stopped the merry go round. We will see how the guys left behind respond but the "club house" atmosphere appears to have been given the boot. On to bigger and better things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 well jackp it is nice that no matter what happens you've got someone lined up to take the blame. So you're saying that the alternative is that no one would be to blame?!!! If the team fails this year, you HAVE to blame Gainey. HE make all of those moves INCLUDING the coaching change. Who would bear the responsibility for this, if not the GM? If the team succeeds, then what I said was, you have to PARTIALLY blame Carbo because he had many of the players who are still with the team. (And conversely, you'd have to give Gainey a lot of the credit for being able to see what was needed, and doing it.) I don't know. It seems straightforward logic to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I mainly blame the room, not the coach. That said, it is possible that a different coaching style would have fit the room better, or a different team would have fit Carbo better. I am not convinced that the primary difference is coaching (yet, too little time). The primary difference is a whole new room of Vets who have not only leadership, but apparently have better attitudes. Gainey changed so many guys that there are no "cliques" left and everyone is trying to fit in and be a good team mate. We will see if that hold 6 months from now. The team has had the same shitty attitude through a string of 3 or 4 coaches. I'm sure that the same players would have been no better under Martin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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