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The Saint

Any Chance Martin Gives Halak a Real Shot?

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I know that Carey Price is "The Franchise", but maybe even Bob has to realize that to win you play your best players, and it just could be that Halak outplays Price this season. I mean sheesh, he did the extreme makeover of the roster, maybe he also lost a little of his man-crush for Price.

Thoughts? Can Jacques be the guy to go against the grain and get away with it? Would he, or is he drinking the Price kool-aid as well?

I really like both goalies, and would love to see a more shared workload but regardless, I just want wins!

I still remember the days of Roy and Hayward winning the Jennings trophies in the late 80's.

I want it back!

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If Montreal has to rely on Halak as the Number one goalie then there is going to be no playoffs for the Habs. I like him, he is good, however

I have not seen anything that makes me think he is a better goalie.

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I really like both goalies, and would love to see a more shared workload but regardless, I just want wins!

Unfortunately for you, development may get in the way of that - what with a 22 year old starting goalie and a 24 year old backup goalie.

I don't think Price is getting preferential treatment because he was picked 5th OA. Draft selection has very little to do with it, other than a goaltender picked 5th OA is projected to be much better than a goaltender picked 271st OA. At 22 years old (21 last season with Carbo), projected talent is more often than not more important than current talent, and benching a kid than isn't playing well may work short term, but can kill you long term.

Do you honestly feel Price has capped out his talent level? Does he have nothing left to learn? Is Price's development better served as a backup or a starter? I'm sure Gainey, Timmins and Martin (and Carbo last season) feel he's better off getting starting minutes, even when he's not necessarily playing well, than backup minutes.

Marc-Andre Fleury took a bit of time to become a Cup winning goaltender. Wins be damned, let's grow a franchise player!

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Unfortunately for you, development may get in the way of that - what with a 22 year old starting goalie and a 24 year old backup goalie.

I don't think Price is getting preferential treatment because he was picked 5th OA. Draft selection has very little to do with it, other than a goaltender picked 5th OA is projected to be much better than a goaltender picked 271st OA. At 22 years old (21 last season with Carbo), projected talent is more often than not more important than current talent, and benching a kid than isn't playing well may work short term, but can kill you long term.

Do you honestly feel Price has capped out his talent level? Does he have nothing left to learn? Is Price's development better served as a backup or a starter? I'm sure Gainey, Timmins and Martin (and Carbo last season) feel he's better off getting starting minutes, even when he's not necessarily playing well, than backup minutes.

Marc-Andre Fleury took a bit of time to become a Cup winning goaltender. Wins be damned, let's grow a franchise player!

:clap::clap::clap:

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Everyone wants the quick fix, and thats what plagued the habs for years, never being bad enough to get that high draft pick, and now we have one and people only care about the now. People act like Halak was so dominating last year. They BOTH had almost identical G.A.A, they both looked bad. Halak had his chance to run with the ball last year, and never strung together wins.

The entire team played bad last year, I think it's unfair to blame the teams woes on Price, imagine if the Pens gave up on Fleury?

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I thikn that Price should get between 45 and 52 starts. Halak should get the rest. Halak has proven over the past 2 seasons that he's an NHL goalie, and he deserves to start more than just 20 games this year!

This doesn't mean that I've given up on Price, it just means that Halak has done well every time he was needed. Until Carey Really shows us that he's the real deal, I think we will need Halak.

Edited by Habsfan

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Everyone wants the quick fix, and thats what plagued the habs for years, never being bad enough to get that high draft pick, and now we have one and people only care about the now. People act like Halak was so dominating last year. They BOTH had almost identical G.A.A, they both looked bad. Halak had his chance to run with the ball last year, and never strung together wins.

The entire team played bad last year, I think it's unfair to blame the teams woes on Price, imagine if the Pens gave up on Fleury?

Poppycock.. Halak was given no chance last year. He played amazing and strung together a number of wins, despite the team in front of him, but was dumped the minute Price came back.

It is hard for a goalie to get good stats playing a couple of times a month. I don't mind going with Price as the number one guy, but if he melts down like last year (and it was bloody obvious by March) then Halak should be given the same opportunity to play his way into the number one spot.

The Pens didn't play the crap out of Fleury. They sent him down TWO seasons when it was clear he was struggling. Fleury has to play his way back in the minors and "reset his career". I am not suggesting Price be sent down, but spending some time as the backup with the firm message that if he wants to be number one then he needs to earn it might be the best thing they ever did for his development!

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Halak

Year GP W L T SO GA SA PCT GAA

2008-09 34 18 14 1 1 92 - 1077 .915 2.86

Price

Year GP W L T SO GA SA PCT GAA

2008-09 52 23 16 10 1 143 1513 .905 2.83

Now tell me, does it look like Halak outplayed price by a lot? I remember last season cursing at Halak plenty of times for weak goals, NONE of these two played brilliantly, but it's incorrect to say Halak was far surperior to Price last year. If you're gonna play bad, you're gonna wanna play bad with the goalie who has the greater upside, and that is Price.

EDIT: Sorry about the table.

Edited by bar

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Halak was better down the stretch, but that doesn't mean he's the better goalie. However, if things get tight with Price the team shouldn't be afraid to use Halak.

That beings said, I don't expect Price to have a .920 SV% and 6 shutouts. It'll be another growth year.

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Halak's definitely a good goalie and I don't see it as self-evident that he won't be a successful #1, or even that his career won't turn out better than Price's. I say that because player development is never an exact science. Nonetheless, I agree with those who say that Price is universally viewed as a potential franchise goalie on the level of Luongo or Brodeur, something no one has ever said about Halak; and that it's sensible to prioritize Price on that basis - especially as Price has looked like an elite #1 goalie for signficiant stretches of his young career already.

Having said that, Habsfan is right. Halak should get about 30 games a season: he is not Curtis Sanford, a Luongo backup who plays 8 games a year. I see Halak to Price as Brian Hayward was to Patrick Roy, a damned good #2/#1A guy who both pushed Roy and gave the team a safety net should Roy struggle.

It's worth noting, BTW, that EXACTLY the same questions were asked about the team's approach to developing Patrick Roy. For all of 1986, many commentators were grumbling about the club's tendency to dress him over proven vet Doug Soetart. And although Roy's 86 Cup run put paid to most of that, the fact is that Roy was still erratic - rather like Price - and only really permanently established his greatness with the 1993 run. Indeed, as late as the 1993 regular season many people were arguing that the Habs should trade him.

So the Price doubters will probably never go away. But his pedigree is impeccable and ultimately he should be the priority, not Halak.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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I know that Carey Price is "The Franchise", but maybe even Bob has to realize that to win you play your best players, and it just could be that Halak outplays Price this season. I mean sheesh, he did the extreme makeover of the roster, maybe he also lost a little of his man-crush for Price.

Thoughts? Can Jacques be the guy to go against the grain and get away with it? Would he, or is he drinking the Price kool-aid as well?

I really like both goalies, and would love to see a more shared workload but regardless, I just want wins!

I still remember the days of Roy and Hayward winning the Jennings trophies in the late 80's.

I want it back!

he's got a real shot at being the backup.

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And although Roy's 86 Cup run put paid to most of that, the fact is that Roy was still erratic - rather like Price - and only really permanently established his greatness with the 1993 run.

I would just like to point out that Roy did lead the Habs to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1989, and had amazing statistics that year. BY the time he won the 93 cup, his "greatness" had already been established(most notably with 3 vezina torphy's)!! ;):D:clap:

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Halak

Year GP W L T SO GA SA PCT GAA

2008-09 34 18 14 1 1 92 - 1077 .915 2.86

Price

Year GP W L T SO GA SA PCT GAA

2008-09 52 23 16 10 1 143 1513 .905 2.83

Now tell me, does it look like Halak outplayed price by a lot? I remember last season cursing at Halak plenty of times for weak goals, NONE of these two played brilliantly, but it's incorrect to say Halak was far surperior to Price last year. If you're gonna play bad, you're gonna wanna play bad with the goalie who has the greater upside, and that is Price.

EDIT: Sorry about the table.

My memory may be a bit hazy, but I also remember that Price was given ample opportunity to play himself out of it when he struggled, whereas Halak was benched at the time when he reasonably was playing in good form (and on a few nights seemed the only player out there still competing when the team in front of him was allowing 30-40 shots on a regular basis). Not saying that it's unreasonable to give your starter more rope than your backup, but it speaks more to the preferential treatment than the stats. Plus the case few years ago when he was also benched in the last game of the season in favor of just-recovered Huet, where in fact he was the one whose play down the stretch put us in a position to fight for a playoff spot as well.

My point here is accountability. This was the problem with the whole team last year, the fact was they weren't pushed enough from within, and they didn't get punished for bad/lazy play. Maybe sending a message that everyone, including your projected franchise goalie, is not exempt from sitting down when he's not playing well, and conversely that even your projected backup can be rewarded with more starts because he's playing when those in front of him quit is not a bad thing.

Plus, as CC says, development, like drafting, is not an exact science. If I remember correctly, Hasek was stuck behind Belfour for years before he had a chance to shine in Buffalo, a late bloomer for sure, but in hindsight, I know whom I'd pick between the two. I am not saying that Halak is future Dominik Hasek, just that you should keep an open mind because stranger things have happened.

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Basically, Gainey put those words in Martin's mouth. :blink:

Halak is so much better than Price right now, it's not even funny.

I'm not saying Price won't be a great goalie, but right now, he is not ready AT ALL

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I would just like to point out that Roy did lead the Habs to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1989, and had amazing statistics that year. BY the time he won the 93 cup, his "greatness" had already been established(most notably with 3 vezina torphy's)!! ;):D:clap:

Undoubtedly true, but I recall his 1989 performance as more "solid" than spectacular and I remember him being criticized for not being anything particularly great in that run. (We were a dominant team then, especially defensively, so Roy hardly carried us in that playoff, which explains why these criticisms were possible - not saying I agree with them especially). I also remember him totally stinking out the joint in the 1992 playoffs in particular and being outgoaltended by Andy Moog for a few other playoff series. Nor was he especially great in 1987 (season + playoffs) or in the 1993 regular season. In fact, I had numerous arguments with several Anglo Montrealers over those years where I had to defend Roy's excellence against the accusation that he was overrated. And let's face it, the guy was never really consistently superb on a nightly basis until after the 1993 run (I recall lots of goals on long shots, etc.). The point being that there IS a legitimate analogy between the kinds of debates we're having about Price and those we used to have about Roy - something Price's critics need to keep in mind.

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I still don't know what all the fuss is all about. Price had a great regular season and his TEAM was beaten by the Flyers. The next year he was i think 16-4-4 before he suffered an ankle injury. All reports say he was rushed back too soon, other goalies with the same or similar ankle injuries took a while to come back from.

After he went down the team sucked to put it mildly, for many reasons as numerous posters have mentioned. Halak played well in his place, not dominant just played well. This year he continues to play well.

Price is the number 1, Halak is number 2. I think Price gets 50-60 games barring unjury, Halak gets the rest.

If Proce bombs out, Halak will step in.

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I thikn that Price should get between 45 and 52 starts. Halak should get the rest. Halak has proven over the past 2 seasons that he's an NHL goalie, and he deserves to start more than just 20 games this year!

This doesn't mean that I've given up on Price, it just means that Halak has done well every time he was needed. Until Carey Really shows us that he's the real deal, I think we will need Halak.

the problem is So far everytime Price gets a breather he loses what ever positive mind set he had before. SO PLEASE HABS HIRE A F*^%$@! SPORTS SHRINK FOR HIM!!!! ALL THE BETTER TEAMS HAVE THEM!!!! sorry for screaming (its in case they haven't)

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I still don't know what all the fuss is all about. Price had a great regular season and his TEAM was beaten by the Flyers. The next year he was i think 16-4-4 before he suffered an ankle injury. All reports say he was rushed back too soon, other goalies with the same or similar ankle injuries took a while to come back from.

After he went down the team sucked to put it mildly, for many reasons as numerous posters have mentioned. Halak played well in his place, not dominant just played well. This year he continues to play well.

Price is the number 1, Halak is number 2. I think Price gets 50-60 games barring unjury, Halak gets the rest.

If Proce bombs out, Halak will step in.

How convenient memory is... Price *imploded* in that series against Philly, to the point where they tried to use Halak in a game.

Price has done NOTHING to earn the number one job except be Gainey's 5th overall pick. Last year, BG stuck with him throughout the 4 game sweep, despite the fact he was struggling badly.

And don't even think of comparing him to Roy. Roy won a Cup in his first year. Sure he had his bad days, but there were more good ones, and NEVER did he play as badly as Price has in both the series against the Flyers and the next year against the Bruins.

Personally, I don't think Price will ever be a good goalie and I think the number of years it takes Habs management to figure this out, is the number of years that the team will suck. Hate to say this but I firmly believe it to be true.

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Some really interesting perspectives here, as usual.

I should have been more cautious in my wording, as I did not mean to make sound like I preferred Halak or that he was better now, or has higher upside than Price, which I do not believe to be true.

I was more reflecting on the benefit that the two goalie system the Habs once employed with great success (mid to late 80's Roy/Hayward) could be once again used to our benefit. As the Chicoutimi Cucumber said much more clearly than I. :lol:

Re-reading my post I realize I used too much exaggerated language to get my point across, sorry about that. I hope for Price to get 50-ish starts and Halak 30-ish or something around those numbers as has been stated by others.

As for the reference to the Jennings, that for me was and is a symbol of a team with a focus on defensive play, not a trophy just for the goalies to enjoy. It reflected a level of excellence that the entire team achieved, when back in the day (again mid to late 80's) if the Habs a had a 1 goal lead with 7 minutes to go, most of the time they won. Simple as that. That is what I want back, that kind of TEAM, that kind of commitment.

Really like the varied responses in this thread however, and can't wait for the puck to drop for real next week.

Edited by The Saint

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How convenient memory is... Price *imploded* in that series against Philly, to the point where they tried to use Halak in a game.

Price has done NOTHING to earn the number one job except be Gainey's 5th overall pick.

Really? Do I really need to list all his accomplishments up until this point? Cuz I really don't feel like typing it all out.

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Really? Do I really need to list all his accomplishments up until this point? Cuz I really don't feel like typing it all out.

Yes. Their career NHL stats are quite comparable. Neither has distanced himself from the other.

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Really? Do I really need to list all his accomplishments up until this point? Cuz I really don't feel like typing it all out.

Go ahead. As if a good rookie year when the NHL snipers have not yet learned your weak spots justifies *2* playoff meltdowns, and a 2nd half collapse that would have cost the Habs a playoff spot had Halak not stood on his head while Price was injured.

Wake up and smell the roses! This guy was near the bottom in most goaltender categories last year. I'm not saying Halak is a great goalie, but at least he's a decent NHL goalie, not like the AHL guy we have in Price.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong; maybe you're wrong. Let's see how the season plays out. But if he sucks again this year, please, PLEASE don't persist with all this "he needs to develop BS." This is what the Buffalo Bills did with Rob Johnson - another guy with great potential. Another guy who needed to develop. That little fiasco set the Bills back about 4 years! I'm not willing to wait 4 years for Price, especially when nothing is guaranteed at the end of those 4 years.

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How long do you think it takes for goalies to reach their potential? When they are 22? Please... Luongo only managed to pull more wins than loses fir the first time when he was like 26, and now he's considered one of the best goalies in the world. How about Tim Thomas? And what about Mason. He completely stank in the playoffs this past season. Should Columbus through him out? Did Pittsburg give up on Fleury after a handful of 'meh' seasons?

So you are saying that if Price doesn't emerge as an elite goaltender this season we should give up on him? At the age of what, 23?

Seriously?

I like Halak as well and I think he could develop into a starting goalie on some teams, but he hasn't shown me anything Price hasn't.

Edited by ForumGhost

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How long do you think it takes for goalies to reach their potential? When they are 22? Please... Luongo only managed to pull more wins than loses fir the first time when he was like 26, and now he's considered one of the best goalies in the world. How about Tim Thomas? And what about Mason. He completely stank in the playoffs this past season. Should Columbus through him out? Did Pittsburg give up on Fleury after a handful of 'meh' seasons?

So you are saying that if Price doesn't emerge as an elite goaltender this season we should give up on him? At the age of what, 23?

Seriously?

I like Halak as well and I think he could develop into a starting goalie on some teams, but he hasn't shown me anything Price hasn't.

There's a difference between letting the best goalie play and giving up on Price. As of yet, neither goalie has established himself as the team's true #1 goalie. Price looked like he had that locked up down the stretch two years ago and early last season. Unfortunately, he collapsed last season and Halak played well in his absence. When it was clear that Price was off his game, he was still given starts over Halak, who at that point in time was playing better hockey. He was given #1 status despite not showing that he could handle it at that time. The team quite obviously was putting Price's development ahead of the good of the team.

We have to very good, young goalies. Give the two of them a truly equal shot at the #1 job and let one of them truly earn it. Don't hand the job to Price because of his draft status or to Halak because Price stumbled last year. You have to earn everything in this league, so let one of them earn the job. That's all I ask.

As for some of their comparisons, they're not all fair. Luongo played on a lousy team which was more responsible for his W-L record than he was. Mason was worn down from playing all but 4 games since the middle of December, while fighting off mono. Plus, the Wings completely overmatched the Jackets, no goalie was getting out of that series alive. And Fleury, he was sent down to the minors for an entire season+, which would have been nice to do with Price, except he got to the point where he needed waivers. At the very least, they should have used his injury last year to send him down for free for a conditioning stint.

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How long do you think it takes for goalies to reach their potential? When they are 22? Please... Luongo only managed to pull more wins than loses fir the first time when he was like 26, and now he's considered one of the best goalies in the world. How about Tim Thomas? And what about Mason. He completely stank in the playoffs this past season. Should Columbus through him out? Did Pittsburg give up on Fleury after a handful of 'meh' seasons?

So you are saying that if Price doesn't emerge as an elite goaltender this season we should give up on him? At the age of what, 23?

Seriously?

I like Halak as well and I think he could develop into a starting goalie on some teams, but he hasn't shown me anything Price hasn't.

It really is ironic that your examples of successes include 2 goalies who have never won a Stanley Cup and, worse yet, failed in last year's playoffs. Luongo had a complete game 7 meltdown and Thomas was merely not that good when the chips were down in that series against Carolina. (As a matter of fact, I'm scared to death that they're going to make Luongo the starter for Team Canada. Brodeur might be old but at least I know he *usually* plays well in pressure situations - not last year.)

I guess I'm an old-fashioned kind of guy. I believe that players should *win* their jobs based on their performance, and not because they're supposed to be good. In my narrow view of the world, those who perform best at a position earn the right to play that position.

So seeing as you're not willing to give up on Price should he cost us another year, how long are you willing to wait? I mean, how many years should we suck because our goalie is near the bottom of the league, before we move on? 2? 3? 4? Keep in mind that it's been nearly 17 years since we've won the Cup. Also keep in mind that rookies like Cam Ward, Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, and Jacques Plante did NOT implode in their first playoff years and actually won the Cup. Others like Tony Esposito were good goalies, but almost ALWAYS choked in pressure situations. And believe me, just PLAYING in Montreal is a pressure situation.

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