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Time for Gainey to go

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I believe, as time goes on, I'm slowly moving towards one of the main issues of the modern Habs being one of drafting. While I used to think it a strong suit, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Now, I don't know if it's the actual picks we make or if it's the way we develop said picks, but there's something wrong with the process.

Now, we've gone through a series of AHL leaders, so it really makes me wonder about Timmins. For all the gems he's drafted in later rounds, as my brother-in-law says rather frequently, even a monkey types a word once in a while.

Time for a deep and critical analysis of Timmins and his staff.

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I believe, as time goes on, I'm slowly moving towards one of the main issues of the modern Habs being one of drafting. While I used to think it a strong suit, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Now, I don't know if it's the actual picks we make or if it's the way we develop said picks, but there's something wrong with the process.

Now, we've gone through a series of AHL leaders, so it really makes me wonder about Timmins. For all the gems he's drafted in later rounds, as my brother-in-law says rather frequently, even a monkey types a word once in a while.

Time for a deep and critical analysis of Timmins and his staff.

Excellent point...a couple of years back when everything was great in Habs land, and we thought we had the best group of prospects in the league. Gaineys detractors would suggest this was due to the expert eye of Trevor Timmins, and not because of Bob.

However now we realize all these blue chip prospects aren't as good as we thought. The people calling for Gaineys head are bringing up the drafting success or lack thereof (Kostitsyn over Getzlaf...etc) along with some questionable trades, and signings.

So I just think its funny that a lot of the people who said bob wasn't responsible for the drafting of our crop of young talent are now citing it as a reason he should be fired.

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I believe, as time goes on, I'm slowly moving towards one of the main issues of the modern Habs being one of drafting. While I used to think it a strong suit, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Now, I don't know if it's the actual picks we make or if it's the way we develop said picks, but there's something wrong with the process.

Now, we've gone through a series of AHL leaders, so it really makes me wonder about Timmins. For all the gems he's drafted in later rounds, as my brother-in-law says rather frequently, even a monkey types a word once in a while.

Time for a deep and critical analysis of Timmins and his staff.

I think there has been big deficiencies in players development, mainly a) lacking mental preparation of players while they were in Hamilton and b) lack of supervision once the players arrived in the NHL.

For the former, I think the Habs lacked modern expertise in Hamilton. Don Lever was an old-school coach who had been in the NHL for over 10 years prior. He had long lost touch with the junior world. Not to say he couldnt coach because the Calder Cup championship proved the contrary; but none of the prospects he sent us seemed to have come mentally ready for the big show, not even Price.

As for the the latter part, Gainey and Carbo were victims of their own personal strengths: strong work ethic, discipline and self-motivation. In retrospect, it seems they underestimated the amount of baby-sitting the kids would still need once they had reached the NHL.

Concerning the picks themselves and Timmins' work; I think he got caught up in the organization's obsession with size and athleticism, which in turn justified Timmins' US programs fetishism because kids there get more time for physical training and such. In the process, it seems that hockey sense and attitude became secondary. Hopefully they decide to adjust. Leblanc and Dumont were sort of a different direction, but Nattinen has Urquhart written all over him.

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The biggest problem on this board (and others) is that people get all in love with prospects. Before they even play a game in the NHL people are convinced they are better then half the guys on the roster. When they come up, most disappoint. How could they not, they have been hyped to the point where if we just brought up the next 10 guys we would be winning the cup.

I hate to break this to people, but most of our prospects will top out at 3rd line careers. Maybe one or two will surprise us, but who knows which ones. Wait until they breakout and then be happy enjoying the surprise.

I am tired of the constant glorification of unproven prospects. Other then Price, we have none that are sure things. We don't have a Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, etc. in the ranks. Our draft picks were just not that high. There are no guarantees with these kids (and that includes Price). Markov is the perfect example of a low pick that worked out. No one knew he would turn out so good at the time.

I do think our development is a bit wanting, but I also think we promote up some prospects with hype before they have done a thing, sending a terrible message to the guys slaving away in the AHL (I am looking at you Price and Lats).

I also think that Kozed hit on a key point. Montreal is party town. All the youngsters need to be both prepared and monitored on arrival. They need some kind of mentor program from the vets to keep them on an even keel. I don't mean they can't go out and party, but it needs to be controlled so it doesn't interfere on the ice. Sheesh, the first thing they do at university is have seniors mentor the frosh.. show them how to get home once drunk. :)

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I think Bob's "wait till the off-season" to negociate contracts is hurting the team. We could've easily gotten a big centre for Komi, Streit, Souray.. instead we got nada. I can understand not offering contracts to old guys who got nothing left in the tank but these were players who were valuable and could've been traded for something good in return even at inflated contracts because they are in their prime.

I would suggest this is Gainey's last chance / year unless we make it to the 2nd round.

I would replace him with a younger more technological savvy candidate who's always on his blackberry looking to lock up valuable players even if it's to trade later on.

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I think Bob's "wait till the off-season" to negociate contracts is hurting the team. We could've easily gotten a big centre for Komi, Streit, Souray.. instead we got nada. I can understand not offering contracts to old guys who got nothing left in the tank but these were players who were valuable and could've been traded for something good in return even at inflated contracts because they are in their prime.

I would suggest this is Gainey's last chance / year unless we make it to the 2nd round.

I would replace him with a younger more technological savvy candidate who's always on his blackberry looking to lock up valuable players even if it's to trade later on.

I agree with that. The biggest issue I have with Gainey is his refusal to make a call on a player and sign some up them long term, especially if he can do it at lower prices. Why he waits until the player is pissed off and he has to compete with 29 other GMs is beyond me.

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The last few posts have been spot on. I've been saying for a while: all the other stuff - trades, handling of RFAs, etc. - is tangential to the REAL problem of the Gainey regime, which is its singular failure to either draft or develop ANY elite talent at any position (except maybe goal). Opinions differ over whether the drafting side has been bad or the development side, or both. Beats me. Either way, though, this failure is the reason why Gainey had to sign 2/3 of a first line and half a defence corps as UFAs, often at high prices, as well as take on the worst contract in all of hockey. He had to, because he had no young top-6 forwards in the system and zero top-4 defencemen. It's just sad. Contrast that with, say, Anaheim, which has an entire first line of home-grown talent, and you see the problem in a nutshell.

If I were the Molsons, I'd sit down with Bob. I wouldn't say a thing about all his UFA signings. I would ask for an explanation of these mediocre drafting/development results. And then I would ask what steps he has taken or will take to ensure that the next five years do NOT leave us with a bunch of Russians who have no interest in playing in the NHL and a bunch of pretty-good third-liners, marginal second-liners, and 5th defencemen. My decision to fire him or to keep him on would be based to a significant degree on how convincing his answers to these questions are.

(It looks like the coaching changes on the farm and the big club have been made with player development in mind. So there's a decent chance Bob would indeed have good answers. But these are the questions that need to be asked; they hold the key to understanding the crashing failure of the Gainey Rebuild).

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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People can list the names of the NCAA players other teams have drafted that have panned out all they want. Ask the Kings if drafting Cammy worked out for them? They can also say all they want aboot Russian no shows. The list of elite young Russians playing in the NHL is bigger than the list of elite young NCAA alumni.

If I were the Molsons I would be asking Bob why the majority of the Habs 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks all off to US colleges for 4 years.

Oh, and I forgot, drafting the Best player available is garbage. That needs to be stopped. The Habs need to draft the best player available for position that they need filled. I'm sick of them drafting so many 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs guys because they were BPA when there were bigger larger guys drafted slightly after them who the Habs actually could have used because they arent like all the 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs prospect in Hamilton. Just wait until the BPA is a G and they draft him.

Bobs previous refusal of long term contracts has helped screw the Habs in drafting aswell, but now with CGG the problem might have been alleviated a bit, but it still exists because he has 1 entire line locked in long term. If Bob had locked in some players with long term contracts than they could draft knowing those positions are filled for the next X years and then draft players for the positions that arent locked in long term. The easiest way to do this is lock in 3 players in the same position. ex Pitts, C, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, they dont need to draft a C for at least 3 years so they can target other positions that they arent as strong in. The way Bob drafts and signs contracts the Habs will never have this luxury. I kow the Habs wont get 3 elite C like Pitts, but they could still pick 3 C's (or any other position) they are happy with and commit to them so they can target other positions.

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People can list the names of the NCAA players other teams have drafted that have panned out all they want. Ask the Kings if drafting Cammy worked out for them? They can also say all they want aboot Russian no shows. The list of elite young Russians playing in the NHL is bigger than the list of elite young NCAA alumni.

If I were the Molsons I would be asking Bob why the majority of the Habs 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks all off to US colleges for 4 years.

Oh, and I forgot, drafting the Best player available is garbage. That needs to be stopped. The Habs need to draft the best player available for position that they need filled. I'm sick of them drafting so many 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs guys because they were BPA when there were bigger larger guys drafted slightly after them who the Habs actually could have used because they arent like all the 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs prospect in Hamilton. Just wait until the BPA is a G and they draft him.

Bobs previous refusal of long term contracts has helped screw the Habs in drafting aswell, but now with CGG the problem might have been alleviated a bit, but it still exists because he has 1 entire line locked in long term. If Bob had locked in some players with long term contracts than they could draft knowing those positions are filled for the next X years and then draft players for the positions that arent locked in long term. The easiest way to do this is lock in 3 players in the same position. ex Pitts, C, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, they dont need to draft a C for at least 3 years so they can target other positions that they arent as strong in. The way Bob drafts and signs contracts the Habs will never have this luxury. I kow the Habs wont get 3 elite C like Pitts, but they could still pick 3 C's (or any other position) they are happy with and commit to them so they can target other positions.

3/4 of the prospect players drafted and signed from europe this year were C. Also, before fisher our prospects were very deep at wing and we went for lots of defense for 3 years. Now it is Centre. I would waiger that if there isn't a potential elite centre available next year, he will go after wingers again, because our good depth at wing is depleted.

Edited by BCHabnut

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Oh, and I forgot, drafting the Best player available is garbage. That needs to be stopped. The Habs need to draft the best player available for position that they need filled. I'm sick of them drafting so many 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs guys because they were BPA when there were bigger larger guys drafted slightly after them who the Habs actually could have used because they arent like all the 5'-10-6' 180-195 lbs prospect in Hamilton. Just wait until the BPA is a G and they draft him.

It's actually drafting larger guys than some smaller BPA's that has befallen the Habs since 2003.

Name me smaller guys that we drafted when we should have drafted bigger ?

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I believe, as time goes on, I'm slowly moving towards one of the main issues of the modern Habs being one of drafting. While I used to think it a strong suit, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Now, I don't know if it's the actual picks we make or if it's the way we develop said picks, but there's something wrong with the process.

Good question. I personally believe it,s our development system that is flawed...that and the fact that Bob won't negotiate during the season!

Edited by Habsfan

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It's actually drafting larger guys than some smaller BPA's that has befallen the Habs since 2003.

Name me smaller guys that we drafted when we should have drafted bigger ?

Chips?

You are right though aboot the Habs having problems drafting larger forwards, but that doesnt mean they should never try it again.

My primary complaint regarding BPA is Bob refusal of being decisive making a long term commitment and locking in 3 players for a specific position so they can target other weaker positions. Also the fact the most of the team only had 1 or 2 year deals doesent show the players that Bob has confidence in them. Plus long term contracts when players are young and just breaking into the NHL can be had for cheaper if you sign them before they have break out years and they realize their true worth.

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Good question. I personally believe it,s our development system that is flawed...that and the fact that Bob won't negotiate during the season!

But I also thought that Bob and Co couldn't of noticed this earlier that what they did... Hamilton was shared with Edmonton for a while and more importantly won the Calder cup not too long ago! NO ONE (Not you nor me) would be thinking: "Hey we just won the AHL championship!..QUick lets dissect our development strategies! Their is obviously something wrong with what were doing!!"

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But I also thought that Bob and Co couldn't of noticed this earlier that what they did... Hamilton was shared with Edmonton for a while and more importantly won the Calder cup not too long ago! NO ONE (Not you nor me) would be thinking: "Hey we just won the AHL championship!..QUick lets dissect our development strategies! Their is obviously something wrong with what were doing!!"

The Habs had the bragging rights of "our prospects beat your prospects because your prospects arent around because they are good enough to actually be in the NHL already".

Does that really mean something? or have Habs fans completely overrated that Calder win? ^_^

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Good question. I personally believe it,s our development system that is flawed...that and the fact that Bob won't negotiate during the season!

So maybe you would like to tell us who he should sign long term at cheap dollars this year? Metropolit? bergeron? henry? glumac? who for crying out loud. Last year he did not sign any one for a very good reason, you may not agree with it but it was his choice, i think he was right so quit beating this dead horse. There is nobody to sign right now.

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so quit beating this dead horse

DAMN YOU DEAD HORSE! *thump thump*

I NEED GLUE!

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DAMN YOU DEAD HORSE! *thump thump*

I NEED GLUE!

well of course that is different :lol:

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DAMN YOU DEAD HORSE! *thump thump*

I NEED GLUE!

No, Colin! Bestiality is bad!

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With Regards to the Development system,

Why hasnt any of our draft picks come from the CHL??? Ask yourself this...who has came to the big club straight from the OHL? (which is FULL of great talent) ex: Matt Duchene for the Avs...straight from Brampton and getting a decent amount of icetime last night.

I think a player like PK Subban should be eligible to leapfrog this AHL "trial and tryout season", and go straight to the show.

Now I want to Analyze what Gainey's rebuilding plan was

Are We Really Rebuilt?

Defensively...it's a two way street

We have 2 NHL ready D-men who would save us breathing room for cap space around trade deadline time (Subban, Emelin)

But it's a one step forward two steps backward system. If we are done rebuilding...shouldn't we have a good, young nucleus of a blueline? Instead, look at all of a UFA signings that occurred this offseason:

Spacek has done nothing superb so far (I think he's going to be a flop)

Gill: was not needed IMHO (Yes we lost Komi, and yes we do need a Physical presence back there), but that is where a Subban, Belle, or Emelin-type fits in Mara: solid acquisition (great 2 way d-man)

Why not let the young ones like Weber, Belle, and Subban develop like Josh Gorges did..through experience!!

I can hardly notice Gorges compared to last season, his development has blossomed through NHL ice-time. Did he look NHL ready when he first came from San Jose? I certainly think not, but as the minutes added up, he learned from his fundamental errors, and continued to develop. His mistakes this season seem to be minimal, and he's not eating the cap.

BG made a major mistake a few seasons ago. It feels like the he opened up a garbage disposal into a bottomless pit, got a dumptruck full of 5.5 million and dumped it..and out of that bottomless pit came Roman Hamrlik. What a waste of $ and cap space. If that space could be used to sign someone that the Canadiens could have back, I think Mark Streit was a gem that we should have fought harder for contract wise. He was worth his contract imo, unlike Hammer.

So...we have to ask...two steps forward or one step backwards? Montreal needs to do stop being such an ambiguous case and develop a defensive core that stays together for years, and let the pairings develop together through time. No more short term fixes to patch up the leaks.

Offensively? There is no question that the Canadiens have the firepower, but Bob Gainey made another mistake and hired the wrong coach who does not fit the playing style of this team.

Moen with Gomez and Gionta...what is the logic behind that?

If Carey Price wasn't our goaltender and Martin Brodeur was...I'd say sure...lets play 1 goal games. But the Canadiens are notorious for something called firewagon hockey, and they should continue to play games like such for the following reasons:

a) they are more interesting

b) when they do get into high scoring affairs, they seem to come out ahead

This defense first system is sending offensively gifted players (such as Andrei Kostitsyn and Max Pacioretty into turmoil)...it's like they want to do something, but something within Martin's system is restricting them to break out.

It will be interesting to see what happens next Off-season,

My only hope is that Bob Gainey will not be the quarterback of it all

:hlogo:

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I think Gainey as done a good job. He has made some hindsight errors, but many of those decisions were based on the information he had at the time. The guy who may get the axe is Timmons. He is in charge of player developement. We are all mad about who Gainey picks. I know he has the last veto, but does he really pick him, or does he like any manager, use his resources and make decisions based on the information provided by those subordinates. The team has a massive scouting system and developement program. There is no way one guy can manage all of those things.

It's funny because two years ago this board was full of people saying Timmons would vigh for Bob's job. Well, look at our prospects. We basically have one that I am excited about. Subaan. That's it.

Edited by BCHabnut

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With Regards to the Development system,

Why hasnt any of our draft picks come from the CHL??? Ask yourself this...who has came to the big club straight from the OHL? (which is FULL of great talent) ex: Matt Duchene for the Avs...straight from Brampton and getting a decent amount of icetime last night.

I think a player like PK Subban should be eligible to leapfrog this AHL "trial and tryout season", and go straight to the show.

Now I want to Analyze what Gainey's rebuilding plan was

Are We Really Rebuilt?

Defensively...it's a two way street

We have 2 NHL ready D-men who would save us breathing room for cap space around trade deadline time (Subban, Emelin)

But it's a one step forward two steps backward system. If we are done rebuilding...shouldn't we have a good, young nucleus of a blueline? Instead, look at all of a UFA signings that occurred this offseason:

Spacek has done nothing superb so far (I think he's going to be a flop)

Gill: was not needed IMHO (Yes we lost Komi, and yes we do need a Physical presence back there), but that is where a Subban, Belle, or Emelin-type fits in Mara: solid acquisition (great 2 way d-man)

Why not let the young ones like Weber, Belle, and Subban develop like Josh Gorges did..through experience!!

I can hardly notice Gorges compared to last season, his development has blossomed through NHL ice-time. Did he look NHL ready when he first came from San Jose? I certainly think not, but as the minutes added up, he learned from his fundamental errors, and continued to develop. His mistakes this season seem to be minimal, and he's not eating the cap.

BG made a major mistake a few seasons ago. It feels like the he opened up a garbage disposal into a bottomless pit, got a dumptruck full of 5.5 million and dumped it..and out of that bottomless pit came Roman Hamrlik. What a waste of $ and cap space. If that space could be used to sign someone that the Canadiens could have back, I think Mark Streit was a gem that we should have fought harder for contract wise. He was worth his contract imo, unlike Hammer.

So...we have to ask...two steps forward or one step backwards? Montreal needs to do stop being such an ambiguous case and develop a defensive core that stays together for years, and let the pairings develop together through time. No more short term fixes to patch up the leaks.

Offensively? There is no question that the Canadiens have the firepower, but Bob Gainey made another mistake and hired the wrong coach who does not fit the playing style of this team.

Moen with Gomez and Gionta...what is the logic behind that?

If Carey Price wasn't our goaltender and Martin Brodeur was...I'd say sure...lets play 1 goal games. But the Canadiens are notorious for something called firewagon hockey, and they should continue to play games like such for the following reasons:

a) they are more interesting

b) when they do get into high scoring affairs, they seem to come out ahead

This defense first system is sending offensively gifted players (such as Andrei Kostitsyn and Max Pacioretty into turmoil)...it's like they want to do something, but something within Martin's system is restricting them to break out.

It will be interesting to see what happens next Off-season,

My only hope is that Bob Gainey will not be the quarterback of it all

:hlogo:

a lot of hind site hooey and not worth a response.

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With Regards to the Development system,

Why hasnt any of our draft picks come from the CHL??? Ask yourself this...who has came to the big club straight from the OHL? (which is FULL of great talent) ex: Matt Duchene for the Avs...straight from Brampton and getting a decent amount of icetime last night.

I think a player like PK Subban should be eligible to leapfrog this AHL "trial and tryout season", and go straight to the show.

Now I want to Analyze what Gainey's rebuilding plan was

Are We Really Rebuilt?

Defensively...it's a two way street

We have 2 NHL ready D-men who would save us breathing room for cap space around trade deadline time (Subban, Emelin)

But it's a one step forward two steps backward system. If we are done rebuilding...shouldn't we have a good, young nucleus of a blueline? Instead, look at all of a UFA signings that occurred this offseason:

Spacek has done nothing superb so far (I think he's going to be a flop)

Gill: was not needed IMHO (Yes we lost Komi, and yes we do need a Physical presence back there), but that is where a Subban, Belle, or Emelin-type fits in Mara: solid acquisition (great 2 way d-man)

Why not let the young ones like Weber, Belle, and Subban develop like Josh Gorges did..through experience!!

I can hardly notice Gorges compared to last season, his development has blossomed through NHL ice-time. Did he look NHL ready when he first came from San Jose? I certainly think not, but as the minutes added up, he learned from his fundamental errors, and continued to develop. His mistakes this season seem to be minimal, and he's not eating the cap.

BG made a major mistake a few seasons ago. It feels like the he opened up a garbage disposal into a bottomless pit, got a dumptruck full of 5.5 million and dumped it..and out of that bottomless pit came Roman Hamrlik. What a waste of $ and cap space. If that space could be used to sign someone that the Canadiens could have back, I think Mark Streit was a gem that we should have fought harder for contract wise. He was worth his contract imo, unlike Hammer.

So...we have to ask...two steps forward or one step backwards? Montreal needs to do stop being such an ambiguous case and develop a defensive core that stays together for years, and let the pairings develop together through time. No more short term fixes to patch up the leaks.

Offensively? There is no question that the Canadiens have the firepower, but Bob Gainey made another mistake and hired the wrong coach who does not fit the playing style of this team.

Moen with Gomez and Gionta...what is the logic behind that?

If Carey Price wasn't our goaltender and Martin Brodeur was...I'd say sure...lets play 1 goal games. But the Canadiens are notorious for something called firewagon hockey, and they should continue to play games like such for the following reasons:

a) they are more interesting

b) when they do get into high scoring affairs, they seem to come out ahead

This defense first system is sending offensively gifted players (such as Andrei Kostitsyn and Max Pacioretty into turmoil)...it's like they want to do something, but something within Martin's system is restricting them to break out.

It will be interesting to see what happens next Off-season,

My only hope is that Bob Gainey will not be the quarterback of it all

:hlogo:

I will add you should check out the (and maybe anyone else who wishes to read more) the off topic matters that were discussed in the permanent rumors page

which allude to your points; $ invested, Short supply of players available on the market and failed Hamilton system which lead to the hiring of Jacques martin not only as a Detroit red wings style coaching (which everyone agrees we can emulate) but that he was hired to dissect the rotten from the team and make sure that these things dont happen again and that new coaching staff in Hamilton is in tune with what were sending back down and what the habs choose to bring up.

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Todd criticized Gainey in today's (Saturday) Gazette. Interesting read... His bottom line is the same as Fisher had years ago in criticizing Houle: where is the team *now* after a 6 year reign.

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Interesting comments from Carbo... Koivu and Kovy never clicked, and that was true for 3 coaches. They also said that Kovy really clicked with ribs, but that was cut short by the trade, which is something I still blame Gainey for as a big mistake (I would not have traded him at all, but if I had to, it would not have been at his lowest value, nor for an old, broken defenseman).

I still think that there were long standing issues in that room and Gainey had to do some gutting, but it isn't going to work unless we can get some size on the first line. Moen is not skilled enough for that role, Lats.. don't even go there. We are at least one big, top 6 winger short. If Gainey fails to fix that soon, we will not be successful this year.

I look forward to hearing more from Carbo as the year goes on... like him or hate him, he knows what was going on in that room...

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