Time for Gainey to go

[BCHabnut]

Copied and pasted from another thread on a news sight.

Beauchemin 3.8, Komi 4.5, Streit 4.1, Souray 5.4 = 17.8 mil for 4 mediocre dmen. Huet, 5.625 for a backup goalie. Kovalev 5.0, Ribeiro 5.0. That's a total of 33.425 mil for 7 players total. THAT'S why Gainey let these average (except for Kovy) players go. Jack, you don't know what you're writing about. Try another sport.

Other than maybe Ribiero, I agree with all of this.

[brobin]

Copied and pasted from another thread on a news sight.

Beauchemin 3.8, Komi 4.5, Streit 4.1, Souray 5.4 = 17.8 mil for 4 mediocre dmen. Huet, 5.625 for a backup goalie. Kovalev 5.0, Ribeiro 5.0. That's a total of 33.425 mil for 7 players total. THAT'S why Gainey let these average (except for Kovy) players go. Jack, you don't know what you're writing about. Try another sport.

Other than maybe Ribiero, I agree with all of this.

As much as we overpaid for Gomez and Hammer, most of those guys are over paid too. The sad fact is that most players who hit free agency are overpaid.

I do think it lends some credence to the argument that you can't let all these guys get to FA.. had he signed some of these guys earlier they would be making 30 percent less then they are now. Streit in particular could have been had for under $3M (according to some reports) if we had signed him prior to his last year with us...

The biggest thing killing Gainey this year is the lack of progress by the kids.. Successful teams have these cheap players filling out the roster to complement the high priced guys. Our cheap guys are playing like cheap guys. Chicago will lose a few players after this year, but don't think we will get one of them cheap.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The issue is not that we let guys get away as UFAs. Every team does that, and this has become another one of those silly red herrings that fans and media throw around, listing the guys we let go without mentioning the guys we added. It's a mug's game designed to make Gainey look stupid. No, the issue is partly that we failed to get much back for Souray and Komisarek - two guys on crappy teams who would have bagged HUGE returns - and also lost Beachemin, Ribeiro, Hainsey and Grabovski while getting little back. But the real point, as I repeat ad nauseum, is the absence of any elite talent developed from within. ANY franchise in that position is going to have to start resorting to patch-up jobs and overpaid UFAs after a while. This is the trap Gainey's fallen into.

Edited October 18, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[jackp]

Copied and pasted from another thread on a news sight.

Beauchemin 3.8, Komi 4.5, Streit 4.1, Souray 5.4 = 17.8 mil for 4 mediocre dmen. Huet, 5.625 for a backup goalie. Kovalev 5.0, Ribeiro 5.0. That's a total of 33.425 mil for 7 players total. THAT'S why Gainey let these average (except for Kovy) players go. Jack, you don't know what you're writing about. Try another sport.

Other than maybe Ribiero, I agree with all of this.

And you, my friend, should try another English teacher, because you responded to a post from someone else, not me.

In my case, I had no issues with letting Souray, Beauchemin, Komi, or Huet go. Streit, Kovy, and Ribs was my beef.

Edited October 18, 2009 by jackp

[Habsy]

The issue is not that we let guys get away as UFAs. Every team does that, and this has become another one of those silly red herrings that fans and media throw around, listing the guys we let go without mentioning the guys we added. It's a mug's game designed to make Gainey look stupid. No, the issue is partly that we failed to get much back for Souray and Komisarek - two guys on crappy teams who would have bagged HUGE returns - and also lost Beachemin, Ribeiro, Hainsey and Grabovski while getting little back. But the real point, as I repeat ad nauseum, is the absence of any elite talent developed from within. ANY franchise in that position is going to have to start resorting to patch-up jobs and overpaid UFAs after a while. This is the trap Gainey's fallen into.

Keep on banging that drum, because you're absolutely right. Having said that, Andrei Kost is killing me. I though he'd be a 30 goal man.

[Colin]

But the real point, as I repeat ad nauseum, is the absence of any elite talent developed from within.

Now, go back to when Gainey took over the team. I believe he said that this team would compete based on what came through the system, not on acquisitions through UFA or trades. That was basically his opening statement on how he was going to build the team.

I don't know where the fault lies, but our kids have not panned out.

Question: does Gainey - being a good guy - get too close to his personnel and then have trouble firing them? Did he see Carbo failing, bluster through and call Carbs 'his best signing' because he was desperate to see his close buddy succeed, and then get pressured to fire him only a short time later?

Are he and Timmins close?

Perhaps there is an issue in separating business and pleasure.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Now, go back to when Gainey took over the team. I believe he said that this team would compete based on what came through the system, not on acquisitions through UFA or trades. That was basically his opening statement on how he was going to build the team.

I don't know where the fault lies, but our kids have not panned out.

Question: does Gainey - being a good guy - get too close to his personnel and then have trouble firing them? Did he see Carbo failing, bluster through and call Carbs 'his best signing' because he was desperate to see his close buddy succeed, and then get pressured to fire him only a short time later?

Are he and Timmins close?

Perhaps there is an issue in separating business and pleasure.

Hey, as late as the fall of 2008 it looked as though the development program was right on track. That turned out to be an illusion, created in part by Kovalev's unreal performance in 2007-08. Also the loss of Streit hurt, and bad.

Once the veil was lifted Bob was remorseless in destroying all those who seemed tied to the failure. I don't think loyalty is his problem.

That Timmins remains suggests that Bob believes the problem has been more one of development than drafting. I sure hope he's right, but there are definitely grounds for questioning Gainey's judgement at this point. He certainly has not proven to be an above-average evaluator of player OR coaching talent at either the professional or amateur levels in his time with us.

[CoRvInA]

Hey, as late as the fall of 2008 it looked as though the development program was right on track. That turned out to be an illusion, created in part by Kovalev's unreal performance in 2007-08. Also the loss of Streit hurt, and bad.

Once the veil was lifted Bob was remorseless in destroying all those who seemed tied to the failure. I don't think loyalty is his problem.

That Timmins remains suggests that Bob believes the problem has been more one of development than drafting. I sure hope he's right, but there are definitely grounds for questioning Gainey's judgement at this point. He certainly has not proven to be an above-average evaluator of player OR coaching talent at either the professional or amateur levels in his time with us.

As keen as I am to see you all aware of the development problem and why Gainey sacked the developers... I must disagree in the coaching talent awareness., Claude Julien is an example that Gainey recognized caoching talent...

Anyways If any of you can understand french I strongly suggest you bare the (antichambre debates) on RDS... alot of points and arguments and also Blame are thrown around.. I particularly liked the fact that the reporters were to blame when players were inflated (talent and potential) For example When Pacioretty was drafted, timmins said he had all the potential of a powerforward... the MEDIA then took this along with his great training camp and pumped him into the Next wonder of the world.. same happened to LAts same Subban etc...

Its what happens when your a habs... And Like J demers said lets wait for 20 games and then decide if were drowning or not

[Wamsley01]

As keen as I am to see you all aware of the development problem and why Gainey sacked the developers... I must disagree in the coaching talent awareness., Claude Julien is an example that Gainey recognized caoching talent...

Anyways If any of you can understand french I strongly suggest you bare the (antichambre debates) on RDS... alot of points and arguments and also Blame are thrown around.. I particularly liked the fact that the reporters were to blame when players were inflated (talent and potential) For example When Pacioretty was drafted, timmins said he had all the potential of a powerforward... the MEDIA then took this along with his great training camp and pumped him into the Next wonder of the world.. same happened to LAts same Subban etc...

Its what happens when your a habs... And Like J demers said lets wait for 20 games and then decide if were drowning or not

Gainey didn't hire Julien, Savard did. So it actually proves the opposite point when Gainey canned him.

Julien hired in Jan 03, Gainey hired May 03

[BCHabnut]

And you, my friend, should try another English teacher, because you responded to a post from someone else, not me.

In my case, I had no issues with letting Souray, Beauchemin, Komi, or Huet go. Streit, Kovy, and Ribs was my beef.

Did I respond to you or quote you when I posted that? Why are you so confrontational? I am quite happy with my grasp of the English language. I was merely pasting a post that I found with an opinion on Gainey's record for signing players. Get over yourself!

Edited October 18, 2009 by BCHabnut

[CoRvInA]

Gainey didn't hire Julien, Savard did. So it actually proves the opposite point when Gainey canned him.

Julien hired in Jan 03, Gainey hired May 03

hehehe i knew you were going to say that... but like we all remember... word was Julien was going to get the boot when BG era started... but Gainey chose to keep him... eye for talent doesnt only mean hiring talent... it also means knowing when to keep it. Yet a few years later we know what happened... yet we explained the possible reasons that lead to that in another thread...

Edited October 18, 2009 by CoRvInA

[jrhabs]

Well it looks like Bob's "science experiment " has blown up in his face.

As Pierre Mcguire said, it's a gamble to do what he did and it's not working.

Great job Bob

- Getting zippo for all those guys he let go

- Stupid philosophy of waiting till season's end to negociate

- Trading some good draft picks

- etc...

Gonna be a long season

[Fanpuck33]

Did I respond to you or quote you when I posted that? Why are you so confrontational? I am quite happy with my grasp of the English language. I was merely pasting a post that I found with an opinion on Gainey's record for signing players. Get over yourself!

In his defense, I thought you were calling him out at first also. Since nothing was in quotes in your post, I thought you forgot to paste whatever it was you copied and that it was all your own comment. Thus, it seemed like the Jack you were referring to was jack-p. Considering your reaction, the middle of your post must have been the quote, and the Jack being referred to was Jack Todd.

No big deal. Let's move on.

[BCHabnut]

I did not even see the jack part in there. Jackp, I apologize for my last response. I never have arguments or quarrels on boards. Just conversations. What a wierd coincedence. I just copied and pasted that from another website. I'm a tard It was to jack todd i guess.

Edited October 18, 2009 by BCHabnut

[matsnaslundsuperfn]

Well it looks like Bob's "science experiment " has blown up in his face.

As Pierre Mcguire said, it's a gamble to do what he did and it's not working.

Great job Bob

- Getting zippo for all those guys he let go

- Stupid philosophy of waiting till season's end to negociate

- Trading some good draft picks

- etc...

Gonna be a long season

Bob's response to Pierre Mcguire..."What's that Pierre? You're a little muffled, can't hear you with this stanley cup ring in my ear."

As for this thread... genius. Give a place for those habs fans to have a pity party and quarantine them.

As for my thoughts,

This season is young, this "experiment" is in the lab and needs time to work. The bunsen burner is on, reactions are taking place, things will change. Give our coach and players a chance, everyone.

Matts.

[jrhabs]

So you're saying gambling with an experiment and potentially not making the playoffs is OK ?

He should have done this experiment 3 years ago

Edited October 18, 2009 by jrhabs

[BCHabnut]

So you're saying gambling with an experiment and potentially not making the playoffs is OK ?

He should have done this experiment 3 years ago

Ya it's more than OK. At this point I wish we were Toronto. I want good draft picks for 4 years. That's how I feel now.

[Habitforming]

Bob's response to Pierre Mcguire..."What's that Pierre? You're a little muffled, can't hear you with this stanley cup ring in my ear."

As for this thread... genius. Give a place for those habs fans to have a pity party and quarantine them.

As for my thoughts,

This season is young, this "experiment" is in the lab and needs time to work. The bunsen burner is on, reactions are taking place, things will change. Give our coach and players a chance, everyone.

Matts.

Nicely put.

In the summer everyone knew that it would take a month or more to find chemistry and or gel as a team and they seemingly had no issues with that... "It is to be expected" .

Now however not even 10 games into the season and the same people are starting crap threads like this.

Makes me sick

[CoRvInA]

Ya it's more than OK. At this point I wish we were Toronto. I want good draft picks for 4 years. That's how I feel now.

HA!! the first one is going to Boston remember!

Nicely put.

In the summer everyone knew that it would take a month or more to find chemistry and or gel as a team and they seemingly had no issues with that... "It is to be expected" .

Now however not even 10 games into the season and the same people are starting crap threads like this.

Makes me sick

Oh so Agreed!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Fanpuck33

[Seb]

Nicely put.

In the summer everyone knew that it would take a month or more to find chemistry and or gel as a team and they seemingly had no issues with that... "It is to be expected" .

Now however not even 10 games into the season and the same people are starting crap threads like this.

Makes me sick

+1

[HabsWEST]

+1

Yes patience...

Do we have a team that just is competitive ( ? ) and barely make the playoffs each year, and maybe, just maybe win 1 round...

year after year..

Or do we want a top level team, to do that, " suck it up for a few years" out of playoffs and have top picks with players like the Crosby's, Getzlaff, Richards, Kopitar, etc......."

Look up the Flyers, not so long ago they finished with 55 points, and drafted James Van Rymsek, ( was it 2nd overall) and added carter , Richards etc...

Look at them now, a few trades to compliment their core...

BRUINS

Same, out of playoffs, received few good picks from draft, ( Kessel...and trade him for 2 High first rounders)...make a few Trades and or FA, ( Chara, Savard)...

BLACKHAWKS

Out of Playoffs, get Kane, Toews, now trade, get FA...

Same can be said for Capitals , Penguins...and up and coming teams like the Blues, LA...

Its matter of expectations and reality of the Salary cap world...

---- The young prospects havent stepped up

---- We lost depth, go down the list of players leaving and coming in...Why the prospects need to make more of impact ( Latendresse, Pacioretty, Kost...etc..)

MISMANAGED assets, we kept all of them, in hoping of winning 1 round???

Higgins, Komy, Kovalev or Koivu, Tanguay, ...all those could have been packed for 1st round picks...

I dont have a problem with the new additions...

But we are missing all the rest!!

By the way the Gomez trade, picking up his contract and all, FINE....but adding Ryan Mcdonagh to trade, was LUDRICOUS, Timmins was quoted as being very dissapointed...and may come back to haunt us!!!! WHY was he added, as we did RANGERS a favour by picking up contract..

MID season, everyone will be calling for gainey to be fired etc....

So here we go again!!!

MISS playoffs for a few years and get a TOP 5 pick.?.....or

build a team to just make the playoffs, hope to win one round, getting middle of pack draft picks, ?

Patience!!

Cheers

Edited October 18, 2009 by HabsWEST

[Sir_Boagalott]

By the way the Gomez trade, picking up his contract and all, FINE....but adding Ryan Mcdonagh to trade, was LUDRICOUS, Timmins was quoted as being very dissapointed...and may come back to haunt us!!!! WHY was he added, as we did RANGERS a favour by picking up contract.

Mcdonagh still has 2 years of NCAA, and then will still most likely need at least 1 year of AHL before he's NHL ready.

Consider this: Lindros looked great in a league of kids and bowled over all of them while skating with his head down. Who's to say at this point that Mcdonagh will look as good in a league where theres lots of men that are his size or a lot bigger? Kramer kicked ass in karate against kids but if he was put against people with the same size, strength and skill he wouldnt look so impressive.

You are right though that Mcdonagh could come back to haunt us in a huge way if he does pan out. The Rags already have young prospects Staal, Del Zotto panning out, and vet Redden is signed till 2013/14. Gilroy and Girardi are 24-25, so they have several young dmen already in NHL, and even more in the AHL.

Hmm, wow, hockeysfuture says Del Zotto is actually ranked 5th (7.5c) for NYR prospects, and McDonagh is 3rd (8c), but Del Zotto is 19 and is playing right now. See, NCAA picks who are off to college for 4 years is a waste. The Habs need players now, not 4 NCAA years + X AHL yrs from now if they actually become good enough.

All Habs 1st and 2nd rd picks have to be available to the Habs within 4 years of being drafted.

If McDonagh is actually better than Del Zotto, he is wasting his own time in the NCAA. Why do high drafted prospects bother to go off to college? Its dumb. Sure they get a degree, then they attempt a NHL career for 3-4 years. If I was hiring people I would hire a person that got a degree 3-4 yeas ago who has actually been in their field since they graduated, or someone who is right out of college over a person who graduated 3-4 years ago and has 0 job experience in that field who was playing sports and would forget a lot of it or not been keeping up with any changes in that particular field.

[habs rule]

Mcdonagh still has 2 years of NCAA, and then will still most likely need at least 1 year of AHL before he's NHL ready.

Consider this: Lindros looked great in a league of kids and bowled over all of them while skating with his head down. Who's to say at this point that Mcdonagh will look as good in a league where theres lots of men that are his size or a lot bigger? Kramer kicked ass in karate against kids but if he was put against people with the same size, strength and skill he wouldnt look so impressive.

You are right though that Mcdonagh could come back to haunt us in a huge way if he does pan out. The Rags already have young prospects Staal, Del Zotto panning out, and vet Redden is signed till 2013/14. Gilroy and Girardi are 24-25, so they have several young dmen already in NHL, and even more in the AHL.

Hmm, wow, hockeysfuture says Del Zotto is actually ranked 5th (7.5c) for NYR prospects, and McDonagh is 3rd (8c), but Del Zotto is 19 and is playing right now. See, NCAA picks who are off to college for 4 years is a waste. The Habs need players now, not 4 NCAA years + X AHL yrs from now if they actually become good enough.

All Habs 1st and 2nd rd picks have to be available to the Habs within 4 years of being drafted.

If McDonagh is actually better than Del Zotto, he is wasting his own time in the NCAA. Why do high drafted prospects bother to go off to college? Its dumb. Sure they get a degree, then they attempt a NHL career for 3-4 years. If I was hiring people I would hire a person that got a degree 3-4 yeas ago who has actually been in their field since they graduated, or someone who is right out of college over a person who graduated 3-4 years ago and has 0 job experience in that field who was playing sports and would forget a lot of it or not been keeping up with any changes in that particular field.

well I do agree that going to college for most of these guys is in my mind a waste of time. A high draft pick is a millionaire very quickly in the NHL money league. you play 5 years in the nhl and you are basiclly set for life, hell we are paying 200k to play in the ahl. Not a bad deal if you can get it. The ones that do go to college very seldom finish the degree, so what was the point?

[jackp]

Did I respond to you or quote you when I posted that? Why are you so confrontational? I am quite happy with my grasp of the English language. I was merely pasting a post that I found with an opinion on Gainey's record for signing players. Get over yourself!

Why am I so confrontational? I was *reacting* buddy. Here's your direct quote:

" Jack, you don't know what you're writing about. Try another sport."

And it wasn't even my post you were criticizing, hence the allusion to an English teacher who would help you determine who exactly wrote a certain post and what exactly they said.

[Fanpuck33]

Why am I so confrontational? I was *reacting* buddy. Here's your direct quote:

" Jack, you don't know what you're writing about. Try another sport."

And it wasn't even my post you were criticizing, hence the allusion to an English teacher who would help you determine who exactly wrote a certain post and what exactly they said.

You claim not to be confrontational, yet here you are trying to stir the pot after this issue has already been resolved:

In his defense, I thought you were calling him out at first also. Since nothing was in quotes in your post, I thought you forgot to paste whatever it was you copied and that it was all your own comment. Thus, it seemed like the Jack you were referring to was jack-p. Considering your reaction, the middle of your post must have been the quote, and the Jack being referred to was Jack Todd.

No big deal. Let's move on.

I did not even see the jack part in there. Jackp, I apologize for my last response. I never have arguments or quarrels on boards. Just conversations. What a wierd coincedence. I just copied and pasted that from another website. I'm a tard It was to jack todd i guess.