GAME THREAD: Wings @ Canadiens

[Colin]

Plex is

... HW farted on me. My post is later. LOL

Edited November 23, 2009 by Colin

[BCHabnut]

a nice guy???

[Toronthab]

I liked those lines.

Remember during the preseason, Plekanec and Camm were a good duo.

with Gomez back, we should NOT put him back with Camm.

Gomez Max Pac and whoever (eventually Gio, when he'll be back)

It wouldn't surprise me if M. Gomez didn't have at least a gentleman's agreement that he would only play on the first line or perhaps with certain levels of players as part of his coming to Montreal. This may not be the case, but if I were a player agent, I would be inclined to seek assurances to cover my asset, so to speak.

I don't think game 23 o4 19 matters very much to a lot of players, which is perhaps part of why we took 3 points from top teams. Our guys know we are in a footrace, and we have to reach a certain level of performance to make it to the dance floor later in the year.

I personally think an 82 game hockey season is utterly insane and can't imagine a player so commited or commitable that he can keep intensity up for relatively nothing games.

I suspect a lot of players know just how deeply we care about them personally too while expecting full devotion in return and money is known not to be much of a motivator in itself.

That said, what a thrill to see Pluck playing at his wonderful best.

And of course, Uncle Bob is a genius.

[Toronthab]

So what's with the seemingly improved play of OBie. Is this here to stay? That would be a lovely thing.

[Colin]

Plex is the type of player that I'd actually change my policies for. The way he's playing right now is reminicent of Koivu at his going-for-it-every-shift best, and he's producing at a similar pact to Koivu in his first years before the knee blowout. Gomez is a great player (despite the season to date) and I think he's going to turn it around, but having an (albeit small) attacking one-two punch of Gomez-Plekanec is VERY interesting to me.

I'd like to see if Plex can keep it up for another 20-30 games, but if he can, I'd like to hear that Bob has opened the book and is starting to talk.

I'm one of the (very) few who has agreed with Gainey's tactic on negotiations. In general, IMO, it actually gives a team more leverage. Now, that comes with an asterisk, and that asterisk has a name: Montreal. Almost anywhere else, you can attract the best UFA's. In Montreal, I don't believe that to be the case. That said, I don't think there's been any real reason to negotiate with any of our UFA's in the past few seasons. You can argue about Streit until the cows come home, but the stark reality is that he was a quasi-winger, quasi-defender who was useful on the PP for one, count it, one year. I fully understand why Bob would want to wait until the year was up to start up that negotiation. I feel that Bob had every reason to believe he could replace the Streitster if he refused to resign in Mtl in the off-season.

Okay, that said: Plex. I think this might be the opportunity to break the mold. Either you find a way to package him for a productive and BIG dominating centre, or you need to sign him. If you sign him, you have essentially locked up two solid, always there, productive centres with speed and a sense of their own zone. If you don't sign him, you risk losing a one-two punch for nothing with only a wing and a prayer at filling that spot from within and less than a prayer at trying to fill that spot during UFA season.

Bottom line for me, Plex has to continue to show he's the real deal (AKA not Kovy's centre, but a centre with a heart) until at least the AS break. Then you open the book and get it done. If it costs you cap room because you have to buy out a guy like Laraque, I think it's worth it.

Incidentally, I feel that Hamr will take a discount - whether it's here or elsewhere. I'm pretty sure no one thinks him a $5.5M guy anymore. $3.5 maybe, but that's already a $2M savings.

[Seb]

I think Bob should talk to Plex's agent, get a feel for what Plex would cost, and (if possible) flat out offer 5 mil/year for 3 years, and say "listen, in the third year, if Plex has outplayed that price, then we'll give him even more on a new contract."

That way Plex has the assurance of an extension, he gets his money (which he's worth, IMO), and Bob has him for not too long term, making him tradable should he sour.

Either way, if we don't think he's worth 5 mil/year, someone else will. That's a promise. And his agent knows it.

[Habitforming]

Old horse but Plex might be at the highest trade value of his career. Couple that with Vinny getting less ice time then Ryan freaking Malone and you have a possible move that could be made (assuming of course that TB will actually take salary back which is unlikely). One worth exploring at least.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Habitforming

[Seb]

Old horse but Plex might be at the highest trade value of his career. Couple that with Vinny getting less ice time then Ryan freaking Malone and you have a possible move that could be made (assuming of course that TB will actually take salary back which is unlikely). One worth exploring at least.

Keep Plex, send Gomez and something else.

[Habitforming]

Keep Plex, send Gomez and something else.

Sure I agree there, but only in a perfect habs world could that happen. You need to give to get in the NHL and no one wants Gomez unless it is for free (almost)

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Packaging Plekanec for that mythical 'Big Centre' is tempting, but who do we package *with* him? That C needs wingers to play with. And he needs D to get him the puck. We have a scarcity of either commodity.

The other option is to chuck away more high picks, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing at this stage.

I still think it's Pleks or bust. One way to keep the cost down might be to offer insane contract length - e.g., $4 mil over seven years, something like that. It all depends on what Pleks is looking for. maybe a chronically insecure dude like him will value security and familiarity over payout.

Also, if Vinny has sucked ass this season, why is that? People have been nervous about him being damaged goods. At this point, that surely has to be considered a possibility.

Edited November 23, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Habitforming]

Packaging Plekanec for that mythical 'Big Centre' is tempting, but who do we package *with* him? That C needs wingers to play with. And he needs D to get him the puck. We have a scarcity of either commodity.

The other option is to chuck away more high picks, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing at this stage.

I still think it's Pleks or bust. One way to keep the cost down might be to offer insane contract length - e.g., $4 mil over seven years, something like that. It all depends on what Pleks is looking for.

Also, if Vinny has sucked ass this season, why is that? People have been nervous about him being damaged goods. At this point, that surely has to be considered a possibility.

Well if Plex's value is high then the "with" would be lower. Maybe S.K or a pick or Carle who knows.

[Habitforming]

Packaging Plekanec for that mythical 'Big Centre' is tempting, but who do we package *with* him? That C needs wingers to play with. And he needs D to get him the puck. We have a scarcity of either commodity.

The other option is to chuck away more high picks, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing at this stage.

I still think it's Pleks or bust. One way to keep the cost down might be to offer insane contract length - e.g., $4 mil over seven years, something like that. It all depends on what Pleks is looking for. maybe a chronically insecure dude like him will value security and familiarity over payout.

Also, if Vinny has sucked ass this season, why is that? People have been nervous about him being damaged goods. At this point, that surely has to be considered a possibility.

You can't consider him damaged goods no matter how bad he plays this year after just one season anymore then we did with Plex having one horrid year.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Habitforming

[BTH]

Packaging Plekanec for that mythical 'Big Centre' is tempting, but who do we package *with* him? That C needs wingers to play with. And he needs D to get him the puck. We have a scarcity of either commodity.

The other option is to chuck away more high picks, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing at this stage.

I still think it's Pleks or bust. One way to keep the cost down might be to offer insane contract length - e.g., $4 mil over seven years, something like that. It all depends on what Pleks is looking for. maybe a chronically insecure dude like him will value security and familiarity over payout.

Also, if Vinny has sucked ass this season, why is that? People have been nervous about him being damaged goods. At this point, that surely has to be considered a possibility.

It would have to include Hamrlik just because of salaries...

Vinny has 19 points in 20 games. He's not damaged goods, just probably not worth his salary. Do we want to be locked into a top two C tandem of Lecavalier-Gomez costing 15 million dollars for 140 points?

I do, however, think that a team with Vinny, Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Markov and Price locked in long-term is sure to be a pretty good team in each of those seasons. Would we have the cap space to haul in the support necessary for a Cup? Probably not.

[Habitforming]

It would have to include Hamrlik just because of salaries...

Vinny has 19 points in 20 games. He's not damaged goods, just probably not worth his salary. Do we want to be locked into a top two C tandem of Lecavalier-Gomez costing 15 million dollars for 140 points?

I do, however, think that a team with Vinny, Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Markov and Price locked in long-term is sure to be a pretty good team in each of those seasons. Would we have the cap space to haul in the support necessary for a Cup? Probably not.

No different than Pittsburgh and the Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Gonchar contracts though.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Habitforming

[ForumGhost]

Sign Plex for 4 mil, 5 years. Fair value. Keep him and keep Gomez, I like how he plays with Gionta.

[Trizzak]

Bob signs Plex in January.

Plex has a terrible "little girl" playoffs.

Bob gets crucified for signing a non-playoff performer.

Book it.

[JoeLassister]

Bob signs Plex in January.

Plex has a terrible "little girl" playoffs.

Bob gets crucified for signing a non-playoff performer.

Book it.

Can a mod move this post in the "death of the bandwagon" thread please ?

[hab29RETIRED]

I think Bob should talk to Plex's agent, get a feel for what Plex would cost, and (if possible) flat out offer 5 mil/year for 3 years, and say "listen, in the third year, if Plex has outplayed that price, then we'll give him even more on a new contract."

That way Plex has the assurance of an extension, he gets his money (which he's worth, IMO), and Bob has him for not too long term, making him tradable should he sour.

Either way, if we don't think he's worth 5 mil/year, someone else will. That's a promise. And his agent knows it.

I'd rather seeing if we coiud sign him to a longer term deal for a lower overall hit something like 7 or 8 years at around $4M. I think a guy with his work ethic who finally looks like he has got his head together is worth locking up long term. Offering longer term security may be an incentive to sign for less then what he may get as a UFA. If I'm Pleks and am only getting offered a 3 year deal from the Habs I wait for Juy 1 for more money AND a longer term.

[hab29RETIRED]

You can't consider him damaged goods no matter how bad he plays this year after just one season anymore then we did with Plex having one horrid year.

After this year, Vinny is signed for another TEN freakin years at over a $7million. There's no way I'd want that much tied up in Vinny. If the last 5 years of his contract were under $2M, it would be worth the risk, since he would be more tradable if he doesn't work out, but if I remember correctly only the last two years of his contract are for a low hit. There is no way I'd want to be stuck with a guy from age 36 to around 41 at a $7M hit.

[hab29RETIRED]

No different than Pittsburgh and the Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Gonchar contracts though.

There is a BIG difference. With the exception of Gonchar none of the guys at Pittsburgh have reached their full potential yet - that's what scary. That's what pisses me off about the habs they over pay for old guys where GM's that no how to develop and manage their own assets lock up their players when they are young - BEFORE they breakout.

Well if Plex's value is high then the "with" would be lower. Maybe S.K or a pick or Carle who knows.

If I'm Tampa I'd be all over a deal where I could get Plex, Kostys x 2 and a bona-fide defensive prospect - Carle wouldn't cut it.

[habs rule]

There is a BIG difference. With the exception of Gonchar none of the guys at Pittsburgh have reached their full potential yet - that's what scary. That's what pisses me off about the habs they over pay for old guys where GM's that no how to develop and manage their own assets lock up their players when they are young - BEFORE they breakout.

well these genius managers that you speak of also had teams that were in last or close to last for a lot of years. In the case of pittsburgh they almost lost the franchise. So I guess if you can learn to lose real good you are a genius cause then you can pick malkin crosby ovechkin etc. And then you are a genius. Ya know that plan probably ain't gonna fly in Montreal. We will build and trade and draft and make the playoffs and continue to grow till we get another cup but yes it does take more brains that the simple ability(?) to lose.

[Sir_Boagalott]

Do we want to be locked into a top two C tandem of Lecavalier-Gomez costing 15 million dollars for 140 points?

I do, however, think that a team with Vinny, Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Markov and Price locked in long-term is sure to be a pretty good team in each of those seasons. Would we have the cap space to haul in the support necessary for a Cup? Probably not.

No, that would totally work.

Part of Bobs problem is that he is to conservative, and afraid to take chances. Bobs refusal to sign anybody long term is hurting the Habs. This is the centre of the player development problem.

Now people are beginning to catch on and are question Timmins and are starting to say that the Habs cant develop players, but for what role? See, nobody knows. Every role? Why not narrow it down a bit.

Sign people long term, make a commitment to stick with them, then only draft players you need to play along with them.

ex: With Vinny & Gomez, the Habs wouldnt need to draft any more 5-10" C's because they were BPA. They would be able to draft the 6'2" 215 lbs + Getzlaff, Richards, etc. Draft enough players you need for the specific roles your long term contract guys cant fill.

Now with Gio and Cammy signed they dont need to draft anymore Smurfs for at least 3 years either. Draft nothing but 6'-4" + 225+ lbs guys for 2 or 3 years. Sure you might not get a top 6 winger, but you'd have a tough ass 3rd & 4th lines. Nobody would be calling the Habs small after that. If they do hit the jackpot and get a top 6 winger with that kinda size look out.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Sir_Boagalott

[Habitforming]

There is a BIG difference. With the exception of Gonchar none of the guys at Pittsburgh have reached their full potential yet - that's what scary. That's what pisses me off about the habs they over pay for old guys where GM's that no how to develop and manage their own assets lock up their players when they are young - BEFORE they breakout.

If I'm Tampa I'd be all over a deal where I could get Plex, Kostys x 2 and a bona-fide defensive prospect - Carle wouldn't cut it.

So Vinny for Plex, both Kosty's and a Weber/Subban type?

HAHAHAHA!

Are you insane?

Plex is scoring more than Vinny and has more use as well. Best case scenario considering his contract and performance is Plex and SK (or Carle) with a pick, or Plex and Weber.

[Habitforming]

No, that would totally work.

Part of Bobs problem is that he is to conservative, and afraid to take chances. Bobs refusal to sign anybody long term is hurting the Habs. This is the centre of the player development problem.

Now people are beginning to catch on and are question Timmins and are starting to say that the Habs cant develop players, but for what role? See, nobody knows. Every role? Why not narrow it down a bit.

Sign people long term, make a commitment to stick with them, then only draft players you need to play along with them.

ex: With Vinny & Gomez, the Habs wouldnt need to draft any more 5-10" C's because they were BPA. They would be able to draft the 6'2" 215 lbs + Getzlaff, Richards, etc. Draft enough players you need for the specific roles your long term contract guys cant fill.

Now with Gio and Cammy signed they dont need to draft anymore Smurfs for at least 3 years either. Draft nothing but 6'-4" + 225+ lbs guys for 2 or 3 years. Sure you might not get a top 6 winger, but you'd have a tough ass 3rd & 4th lines. Nobody would be calling the Habs small after that. If they do hit the jackpot and get a top 6 winger with that kinda size look out.

That isn't the way you can build anything except for the Leafs farm system.... a full 23 man roster of big non-talented players.

Why rely on luck just to get a 3rd-4th liner, they are the easiest to sign UFA.

[BTH]

No, that would totally work.

Part of Bobs problem is that he is to conservative, and afraid to take chances. Bobs refusal to sign anybody long term is hurting the Habs. This is the centre of the player development problem.

Now people are beginning to catch on and are question Timmins and are starting to say that the Habs cant develop players, but for what role? See, nobody knows. Every role? Why not narrow it down a bit.

Sign people long term, make a commitment to stick with them, then only draft players you need to play along with them.

ex: With Vinny & Gomez, the Habs wouldnt need to draft any more 5-10" C's because they were BPA. They would be able to draft the 6'2" 215 lbs + Getzlaff, Richards, etc. Draft enough players you need for the specific roles your long term contract guys cant fill.

Now with Gio and Cammy signed they dont need to draft anymore Smurfs for at least 3 years either. Draft nothing but 6'-4" + 225+ lbs guys for 2 or 3 years. Sure you might not get a top 6 winger, but you'd have a tough ass 3rd & 4th lines. Nobody would be calling the Habs small after that. If they do hit the jackpot and get a top 6 winger with that kinda size look out.

Do you realize how few 18 year olds are 6'4, 225 pounds? Maybe one per draft?

Who cares how big they are? We want good players, otherwise we would just sign a bunch of sumo wrestlers and be done with it.