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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Rebuild in disguise - Some confirmation?

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Digging up an old thread...I'd say the "in disguise" can be dropped from the thread title.

Good point! Gauthier is clear as the cross on top of Mount Royal that further improvement is likely going to have to come from within and from young players. I wish I had more faith in our track record with young players, but I suppose that's what a 'rebuild' looks like.

(Then again, I've almost forgotten what I meant by my original 'rebuild in disguise' hypothesis. The original idea was that the team would be competitive over 4-5 years, giving the Habs breathing space to stockpile young talent to build a REAL contender for years following the Gomez/Gionta era. However, a case can be made that this core in fact IS good enough to be the nucleus of a contender within that window. What it would take, arguably, is for at least one young player, and probably two, to emerge as bona-fide top-6 forwards and one young player as a top-4 defenceman, without us getting weaker in any other area. Added size would also help.

With Subban on board we've ticked one of the those boxes. But we're weaker in goal and possibly on the bottom six, and we will need to somehow replace Hammer's contributions in order for this to happen.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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Good point! Gauthier is clear as the cross on top of Mount Royal that further improvement is likely going to have to come from within and from young players. I wish I had more faith in our track record with young players, but I suppose that's what a 'rebuild' looks like.

(Then again, I've almost forgotten what I meant by my original 'rebuild in disguise' hypothesis. The original idea was that the team would be competitive over 4-5 years, giving the Habs breathing space to stockpile young talent to build a REAL contender for years following the Gomez/Gionta era. However, a case can be made that this core in fact IS good enough to be the nucleus of a contender within that window. What it would take, arguably, is for at least one young player, and probably two, to emerge as bona-fide top-6 forwards and one young player as a top-4 defenceman, without us getting weaker in any other area. Added size would also help.

With Subban on board we've ticked one of the those boxes. But we're weaker in goal and possibly on the bottom six, and we will need to somehow replace Hammer's contributions in order for this to happen.

Rebuild in disguise is apt because this team resembles the 2004-2007 team now.

The anger from me came from the fact that we were sold that Kovalev, Koivu, Souray, Theodore were the core veterans and the success was dependent upon Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Markov, Kostitsyn etc improving to become our next core. 2008 happened and it seemed like our patience had paid off.

At this point I was totally on board. I had been drinking the Kool-aid. Then they pulled the chute and began the process all over again. When you are sold cherry Kool-aid for 5 seasons and then the Kool-Aid salesman tells you he just noticed the 6 turds floating in the pitcher it tends to illicit a poor reaction.

So the question is, if the Canadiens spend the next 4 years battling for 7-9th place and they let Gomez, Gionta, Markov walk and purge the kids they are telling us are going to lead us to the next glory (Eller, Price, Subban, Pouliot, Paccioretty) how will we react?

I gave them a mulligan last season because I had never experienced a full rebuild before (1980-2002), but I am not willing to accept what will essentially have become a 10 year window of treading water to fill playoff dates.

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Rebuild in disguise is apt because this team resembles the 2004-2007 team now.

The anger from me came from the fact that we were sold that Kovalev, Koivu, Souray, Theodore were the core veterans and the success was dependent upon Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Markov, Kostitsyn etc improving to become our next core. 2008 happened and it seemed like our patience had paid off.

At this point I was totally on board. I had been drinking the Kool-aid. Then they pulled the chute and began the process all over again. When you are sold cherry Kool-aid for 5 seasons and then the Kool-Aid salesman tells you he just noticed the 6 turds floating in the pitcher it tends to illicit a poor reaction.

So the question is, if the Canadiens spend the next 4 years battling for 7-9th place and they let Gomez, Gionta, Markov walk and purge the kids they are telling us are going to lead us to the next glory (Eller, Price, Subban, Pouliot, Paccioretty) how will we react?

I gave them a mulligan last season because I had never experienced a full rebuild before (1980-2002), but I am not willing to accept what will essentially have become a 10 year window of treading water to fill playoff dates.

I think almost everone knew the habs were not that good..I always hated and though komi and kovalev was over rated and to this day blames alot of the dressing room problams on kovlev,we need him to be a leader, that never happen...I think Koivu really try but with UFA not whating to come here he never got the help he so much needed to take this team to the next level...I was never sure what happen to Theodore but feel it was his home life..after most of these guys left they really never did anything so how good were they?

I think the new habs are more team players and i hate to say this but with the new NA look as work out for us....

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I think almost everone knew the habs were not that good..I always hated and though komi and kovalev was over rated and to this day blames alot of the dressing room problams on kovlev,we need him to be a leader, that never happen...I think Koivu really try but with UFA not whating to come here he never got the help he so much needed to take this team to the next level...I was never sure what happen to Theodore but feel it was his home life..after most of these guys left they really never did anything so how good were they?

I think the new habs are more team players and i hate to say this but with the new NA look as work out for us....

Our NA defence as well with Markov, Hamrlik and Spacek :D nah j/k. It sure seems like there is a bigger risk of noheart in european players, especially easterneurope player (pls dont jump me now).

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I just thought that with Gauthier's statements yesterday about letting younger, cheaper players fill the spots of the departing Moore, Metro, Mara, that this thread was appropriate to be dug up. I guess the "disguise" portion is still valid, as the original point was mainly referring to removing the old core, swapping in Gomez, Gionta, Camms, as kind of a band aid as the prospect pool was reestablished. Now with older, serviceable bottom lines vets being jettisoned in favor of Boyd, Pyatt, and presumably White, Eller, Laps, it's even more apparent. (I realize older players also come with cap implications which factored somewhat into the decisions made by Gauthier.) The team has been thinnest at D, so swapping in young dmen has been more of a struggle, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a purge next year of at least a couple of vets (Hamrlik's expiring contract helps there).

I do think that, while justified, it's interesting that the guys considered questionable talents on the Habs top 2 lines (Pouliot, AK) are the youngsters. Maybe we're a little gun shy after being sold management's previous "can't miss" version of the future.

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Rebuild in disguise is apt because this team resembles the 2004-2007 team now.

The anger from me came from the fact that we were sold that Kovalev, Koivu, Souray, Theodore were the core veterans and the success was dependent upon Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Markov, Kostitsyn etc improving to become our next core. 2008 happened and it seemed like our patience had paid off.

At this point I was totally on board. I had been drinking the Kool-aid. Then they pulled the chute and began the process all over again. When you are sold cherry Kool-aid for 5 seasons and then the Kool-Aid salesman tells you he just noticed the 6 turds floating in the pitcher it tends to illicit a poor reaction.

So the question is, if the Canadiens spend the next 4 years battling for 7-9th place and they let Gomez, Gionta, Markov walk and purge the kids they are telling us are going to lead us to the next glory (Eller, Price, Subban, Pouliot, Paccioretty) how will we react?

I gave them a mulligan last season because I had never experienced a full rebuild before (1980-2002), but I am not willing to accept what will essentially have become a 10 year window of treading water to fill playoff dates.

Love the 'turds in the pitcher' metaphor :lol:

You're focusing only on the first of my two scenarios (i.e., this core tides us over until the next wave of talent comes up, then we contend), and not the second, which sees us contending within the Gionta/Gomez window. I think that, with some luck, the latter is possible. Price and the combo of Pouliot/Kostitsyn/other young forwards are the main keys to this happening. And as somebody pointed out, we'll have more cap space to play with next year.

More broadly, after all the disappointment and heartache, I don't share your grumpiness about it. Perhaps that's because I do think the current core has a chance to contend if 2-3 young guns come along...or heck, maybe because I just like a lot of the players our current roster (Gomez, Gio, Cammy, Gill would top this irrational 'likeability' list).

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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When I heard the news that Mr jeffrey Molson will take over the ship I could't tell you how happy this made me. Last year when I heard from pierre Biovin that we need a billingual G-M and a billingual coach it drew the final straw. Theres no need for politics in sports I can relate to the preference of a bilingual coach or G-M but not to the the point of excluding your best options for our team and it's future. Salut Pierre est bonne chance! :clap:

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I didn't want to start another topic for this so I will try and make it relevant to this thread. Is a captain necessary to being a successful team, and will/should the habs name a captain for the next season? I think they will, I just hope the players vote in the captain and he isn't appointed by the coach or GM. I just don't see how naming a captain who will bring you good PR is better than actually recognizing and promoting the actual leader of the team.

Right now I would have to say the candidates are Gorges, Gionta, and maybe Gomez. Gomez has great skill and leadership plus he is learning french, but I don't see him as the next captain. Gio has the heart of a lion and is always there when we need him and I could definitely see him as the next captain. My choice, however, is Gorges. He is one of the longest serving vets (weird isn't it?) and he never lets the team down. From almost all reports he is the leader in the locker room and players really seem to turn to him on the ice. He is also great with Carey who, lets face it, our entire 2010-11 season is riding on. He also isn't afraid to call out teammates including young mister Price, and that is necessary for a captain.

On a side note I would love to see Gill be named captain for his leadership and for the fact he will stand up to and call out the media. I know, however, that he won't play that much longer for the CH and his regular season performance is at times sub-par. I would still like him to wear an A though.

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I'd also toss Cammys name into the mix for captain. He's very well spoken with the media.

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When I heard the news that Mr jeffrey Molson will take over the ship I could't tell you how happy this made me. Last year when I heard from pierre Biovin that we need a billingual G-M and a billingual coach it drew the final straw. Theres no need for politics in sports I can relate to the preference of a bilingual coach or G-M but not to the the point of excluding your best options for our team and it's future. Salut Pierre est bonne chance! :clap:

That policy isn't going to change any time soon.

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Love the 'turds in the pitcher' metaphor :lol:

You're focusing only on the first of my two scenarios (i.e., this core tides us over until the next wave of talent comes up, then we contend), and not the second, which sees us contending within the Gionta/Gomez window. I think that, with some luck, the latter is possible. Price and the combo of Pouliot/Kostitsyn/other young forwards are the main keys to this happening. And as somebody pointed out, we'll have more cap space to play with next year.

More broadly, after all the disappointment and heartache, I don't share your grumpiness about it. Perhaps that's because I do think the current core has a chance to contend if 2-3 young guns come along...or heck, maybe because I just like a lot of the players our current roster (Gomez, Gio, Cammy, Gill would top this irrational 'likeability' list).

I am not grumpy about this team, I was grumpy about being sold something and finding out what I was sold was BS.

If you recall, I was happy from 2006-2009. I like this core better than the Kovalev/Koivu core but I was more emotionally

invested in the young players when they pulled the chute because I drank the Kool-Aid.

I had never been through a rebuild. I went from Stanley Cup core to Stanley Cup core to Stanley Cup core to 90+ point core from 1980-1998. Then the Houle era put me in the position of witnessing the first rebuild. So when Gainey came back I bought his sales

pitch. Now I am taste testing the Kool-Aid before I get floaters.

Ultimately I think it is progress. Cammalleri, Gionta, Plekanec, Gomez and Markov are better than Kovalev, Koivu, Zednik, Theodore and Souray. I also think that Price, Subban, Eller and Pouliot offer a higher ceiling than Komisarek, Higgins, Kostitsyn and Chipchura.

I also see the team moving toward a team first philosophy.

My point was I have my guard up for a second purge and don't trust the front office like I did 2 years ago.

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Good point! Gauthier is clear as the cross on top of Mount Royal that further improvement is likely going to have to come from within and from young players. I wish I had more faith in our track record with young players, but I suppose that's what a 'rebuild' looks like.

(Then again, I've almost forgotten what I meant by my original 'rebuild in disguise' hypothesis. The original idea was that the team would be competitive over 4-5 years, giving the Habs breathing space to stockpile young talent to build a REAL contender for years following the Gomez/Gionta era. However, a case can be made that this core in fact IS good enough to be the nucleus of a contender within that window. What it would take, arguably, is for at least one young player, and probably two, to emerge as bona-fide top-6 forwards and one young player as a top-4 defenceman, without us getting weaker in any other area. Added size would also help.

With Subban on board we've ticked one of the those boxes. But we're weaker in goal and possibly on the bottom six, and we will need to somehow replace Hammer's contributions in order for this to happen.

Problem is our prospect depth; from the players we have(had) in Hamilton last year, name me one forward is a guaranteed top 6 forward next year...

1. Pacioretty is still healing from a George Laraque back (still not ready for next season) plus he has to gain some muscle

2. Desharnais plays like a little girl in the NHL, he's scared stiff of the mastodonts on the opposing teams (for now) need to have him practice more with Gionta

3. Trotter? top 6 only on poor teams

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Problem is our prospect depth; from the players we have(had) in Hamilton last year, name me one forward is a guaranteed top 6 forward next year...

1. Pacioretty is still healing from a George Laraque back (still not ready for next season) plus he has to gain some muscle

2. Desharnais plays like a little girl in the NHL, he's scared stiff of the mastodonts on the opposing teams (for now) need to have him practice more with Gionta

3. Trotter? top 6 only on poor teams

Name me one guaranteed top 6 for other teams from their prospect pool. Without them being a top 2 or 3 draft pick. Eller didn't play for Hamilton, so despite the fact that he's a "traded for" prospect, I guess he doesn't count. Since our top 6 is set, barring a trade, I'm not worried about someone from the farm graduating THIS year. Down the road, what's wrong with Kristo, Leblanc, Avstsin, Patches (he's not crippled for life)? And not that I'm saying they're can't miss guys, but Trotter and Desharnais have dressed for a combined total of less than 10 NHL games. Easy to write off prospects if they're never given a change to play.

While given the Habs recent history of development isn't strong (understatement), it's pretty disappointing that a lot of people are still rather pessimistic about the Habs and their prospects. The Habs went to the ECF, and Bulldogs went to their conference finals, and yet...we stink, we have no depth, blah, blah, blah. Never mind that we have a top notch defenseman graduating, where's the top forward!! And yet, many still/will attribute that success to what the organization has lost (Halak, Boucher) as a means to continue the "woe is me" trend.

Edited by huzer

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Name me one guaranteed top 6 for other teams from their prospect pool. Without them being a top 2 or 3 draft pick. Eller didn't play for Hamilton, so despite the fact that he's a "traded for" prospect, I guess he doesn't count. Since our top 6 is set, barring a trade, I'm not worried about someone from the farm graduating THIS year. Down the road, what's wrong with Kristo, Leblanc, Avstsin, Patches (he's not crippled for life)? And not that I'm saying they're can't miss guys, but Trotter and Desharnais have dressed for a combined total of less than 10 NHL games. Easy to write off prospects if they're never given a change to play.

While given the Habs recent history of development isn't strong (understatement), it's pretty disappointing that a lot of people are still rather pessimistic about the Habs and their prospects. The Habs went to the ECF, and Bulldogs went to their conference finals, and yet...we stink, we have no depth, blah, blah, blah. Never mind that we have a top notch defenseman graduating, where's the top forward!! And yet, many still/will attribute that success to what the organization has lost (Halak, Boucher) as a means to continue the "woe is me" trend.

Well, see Wamsley's post above. Once burned, twice shy; until we see young guns stepping up and delivering instead of disappointing, I think caution regarding our prospects is the sensible approach. Subban is certainly a good start. But the entire Gainey era yielded one, count 'em one, clear-cut top-6 forward (Pleks). CoRvInA's concerns are legitimate. (Having said that, I've got an open mind, especially since the entire infrastructure for player development was fire-bombed and rebuilt by Bob in 2009 - which is why I'm not totally pessimistic that we can contend within Gio's window).

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Well, see Wamsley's post above. Once burned, twice shy; until we see young guns stepping up and delivering instead of disappointing, I think caution regarding our prospects is the sensible approach. Subban is certainly a good start. But the entire Gainey era yielded one, count 'em one, clear-cut top-6 forward (Pleks). CoRvInA's concerns are legitimate. (Having said that, I've got an open mind, especially since the entire infrastructure for player development was fire-bombed and rebuilt by Bob in 2009 - which is why I'm not totally pessimistic that we can contend within Gio's window).

Indeed Chicoutimi. Even tho my post seemed uncharacteristically negative, I'm actually hopeful for Pac's recovery and Gionta making Desharnais less Vertically challenged... Huzer, Im not dishing on our prospects, only pointing out the rather mediocre state that has made Gauthier inquire, deal and trade prospect for draft picks and other club's prospects... Because we are truly lacking depth within our depth of forwards, which unless a major revelation occurs during training camp, we really don't (didn't) have any Plekanecs or Ribeiro like forwards that could make the presently top 6 habs forwards fear for their jobs,

Reason why the return on Halak and Sergei presents at least an option that we might have a few to make the before mentioned 6 (or 5 lol) do their best.

Edited by CoRvInA

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Caution is understandable and expected. Inevitable failure, however, is how a significant portion of the fan base views our prospects.

It sucks that the Habs, for so long, have been incredibly inept at either identifying or producing top line talent for the club. It's a little sad that most of the posters are youngsters that have only been witness to this type of Canadiens club. My point was mainly that due to the Habs' failures for quite a while, it's rather sad that despite the successes of the team and it's minor league affiliate this year, people can't trust that the team (and it's prospects) will actually improve. Normally such successes would be seen as reasons for hope.

I don't quite think I'm explaining it correctly, though.

After also being a victim of an overindulgence of kool-aid, I'll take small victories for now. The Habs seem to have a gem in Subban, and his graduation (and potentially Eller's) is cause for optimism. To expect more than 1 or two "impact" graduations isn't realistic, however.

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Caution is understandable and expected. Inevitable failure, however, is how a significant portion of the fan base views our prospects.

It sucks that the Habs, for so long, have been incredibly inept at either identifying or producing top line talent for the club. It's a little sad that most of the posters are youngsters that have only been witness to this type of Canadiens club. My point was mainly that due to the Habs' failures for quite a while, it's rather sad that despite the successes of the team and it's minor league affiliate this year, people can't trust that the team (and it's prospects) will actually improve. Normally such successes would be seen as reasons for hope.

I don't quite think I'm explaining it correctly, though.

After also being a victim of an overindulgence of kool-aid, I'll take small victories for now. The Habs seem to have a gem in Subban, and his graduation (and potentially Eller's) is cause for optimism. To expect more than 1 or two "impact" graduations isn't realistic, however.

This is true.

THe Habs will be in good shape if Price makes the leap and Subban and Eller show glimpses of what they will be at 23-24.

Subban and Eller do not have to step in and be great, they need to step in and fill holes for cheap. Look at the Ducks in 2007.

Looking at their roster in hindsight it looks like an All-Star team, but Getzlaf, Penner and Perry were not dominant players, they

filled gaps. When they were ready to be dominant the Ducks moved out the old forward core and added Bobby Ryan two seasons later.

The hope is that Price, Subban, Eller, Pouliot step in to larger roles by 2012 and then Kristo, Paccioretty, Leblanc and Tinordi then apprentice and fill

the gaps. All of these guys will not be major impact players, but the constant progression assures a consistent contender.

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This is true.

THe Habs will be in good shape if Price makes the leap and Subban and Eller show glimpses of what they will be at 23-24.

Subban and Eller do not have to step in and be great, they need to step in and fill holes for cheap. Look at the Ducks in 2007.

Looking at their roster in hindsight it looks like an All-Star team, but Getzlaf, Penner and Perry were not dominant players, they

filled gaps. When they were ready to be dominant the Ducks moved out the old forward core and added Bobby Ryan two seasons later.

The hope is that Price, Subban, Eller, Pouliot step in to larger roles by 2012 and then Kristo, Paccioretty, Leblanc and Tinordi then apprentice and fill

the gaps. All of these guys will not be major impact players, but the constant progression assures a consistent contender.

The three big difference in the Ducks example is that first of all, Burke god rid of the horrible contract they had in Fedorov (for us its Gomez), lucked out by picking up two stud defencemen (Kevin Lowe's stupidity and neidermeyer's desire to play with his brother0 and then they manage to also get a top 5 pick to land Bobby Ryan. The last top 5 the habs had was Price. Unless there is another lockout lottery in 2-3 years time, i don't see the habs being bad enough to get an impact player like Ryan through the Draft - given their track record, I've lost all hope of the habs ability to draft a stud with a mid to late pick (like the Ducks did with Getzlaf - who the habs passed on :puke:).

What really worries me about the future is that Gomez/Gionta/Cammy are all due big bucks for another 4 years, if Eller, Subban, Price and Pouliot do achieve their potential to become front line players, what do we to remain under the cap in another 2 years when, when you consider the no trade/limited trade contracts are big ticket players have.

I just can't see the habs really having a chance at success unless:

1) they move Gomez

2) The luck out and another one of their kids (Kristo or the russian kid they drafted last year) comes into the fold and becomes a top 3 player at a cheap rate.

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They had more success with Gomez then they had in the last 18 years. Why would they get rid of him.

Like it or not, 2; 30+ goal scorers came to Montreal because of Gomez.

They are not as cap strapped as you think they are, the are in the same boat as every other team in the league.

Young players have very little options as far as huge contracts, by the time the big 3 contracts expire is when the young players you mention will be asking ofr big money. They are RFA for 5-6 more years.

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Problem is our prospect depth; from the players we have(had) in Hamilton last year, name me one forward is a guaranteed top 6 forward next year...

1. Pacioretty is still healing from a George Laraque back (still not ready for next season) plus he has to gain some muscle

2. Desharnais plays like a little girl in the NHL, he's scared stiff of the mastodonts on the opposing teams (for now) need to have him practice more with Gionta

3. Trotter? top 6 only on poor teams

Aaron Palushaj had a hell of a playoff. I wonder if he isn't taking off? Danny Kristo could be a great second round steal too.

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Aaron Palushaj had a hell of a playoff. I wonder if he isn't taking off? Danny Kristo could be a great second round steal too.

Don't know about Palushaj, but I think you're right about Kristo. He was very good at the WJC and he had an excellent season with his college. Kristo should be in the starting line-up sometimes in the 2011-2012 season.

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They had more success with Gomez then they had in the last 18 years. Why would they get rid of him.

Like it or not, 2; 30+ goal scorers came to Montreal because of Gomez.

They are not as cap strapped as you think they are, the are in the same boat as every other team in the league.

Young players have very little options as far as huge contracts, by the time the big 3 contracts expire is when the young players you mention will be asking ofr big money. They are RFA for 5-6 more years.

RFA's are actually getting a lot more money in the past because teams don't want to risk letting them become UFA's. With the threat of an offer sheet, top tier RFA's are actually getting the same type of money that UFA's USED to get. Teams are willing to sign RFA's for more money in exchange for signing them past their UFA years.

Philly signed Carter and Richards to $5M+ after their initial 3 year deals. After their initial 3 year deals, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin all cashed in for $8M+. Big money were paid to Toews, Kane and Keith in Chicago after their initial contracts. LA is not signing the UFA Kovulchuk becuase they are worried that in a year Doughty and Johnson will become RFA's. This is the reality of the post-cap NHL.

If Subban puts up 60-65 points by the end of year 3, he will be looking for $5M+ and if we want to sign him for 2-4 years into his UFA years, it may cost more. The smart move now is to lock up your young core tplayers o longer term cap friendly contracts.

Top tier players are now signed to big contracts before hitting UFA. Big risk is that what if a guy has a big year in year 2 or 3, and gets signed to a big contract extention, he may go Gomez on you (i.e. contract year gets 80+ points and then regresses to a 55-60 point player).

I dont' see why people on this site have such an aversion of trying to move a guy, just becuase he was signed as a free agent or traded to bring in a free agents. There seems to be some stupid stupid perception that no one will want to play for a team that moves a guy that signed as a ufa - which isn't even the case with Gomez.

Hell, Philly, Boston and the NYR have been doing that for years and they have absolutely no problem in signing players. They have all dumped bad signings and got players to waive NTC or have waived bad signings. God forbid someone suggests that the habs do the same and everyone here goes paranoid on how classless that is. This is a business, if you make a mistake, you need to correct it. In a cap system the margin for error is to small. Look at the Blackhawks. They just won a cup and started dismantling their team to keep their core - which is what the Habs SHOULD have done in 1979 after Dryden, the roadrunner and Lemaire retired. The Hawks WILL dump Huet to the minors to get rid of his cap hit. They still won't have any issues attracting top players. No one is going to stop signing with Philly, for asking Gagne to waive his NTC, or Boston for asking Thomas to waive his NTC. Philly asked Roenick to waive his no NTC and dumped him to the lowly Kings and had absolutely no issues in getting UFA's to sign. Or don't people remember that Briere signed with them after that and not the habs.

Edited by hab29RETIRED

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RFA's are actually getting a lot more money in the past because teams don't want to risk letting them become UFA's. With the threat of an offer sheet, top tier RFA's are actually getting the same type of money that UFA's USED to get. Teams are willing to sign RFA's for more money in exchange for signing them past their UFA years.

Philly signed Carter and Richards to $5M+ after their initial 3 year deals. After their initial 3 year deals, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin all cashed in for $8M+. Big money were paid to Toews, Kane and Keith in Chicago after their initial contracts. LA is not signing the UFA Kovulchuk becuase they are worried that in a year Doughty and Johnson will become RFA's. This is the reality of the post-cap NHL.

If Subban puts up 60-65 points by the end of year 3, he will be looking for $5M+ and if we want to sign him for 2-4 years into his UFA years, it may cost more. The smart move now is to lock up your young core tplayers o longer term cap friendly contracts.

Top tier players are now signed to big contracts before hitting UFA. Big risk is that what if a guy has a big year in year 2 or 3, and gets signed to a big contract extention, he may go Gomez on you (i.e. contract year gets 80+ points and then regresses to a 55-60 point player).

I dont' see why people on this site have such an aversion of trying to move a guy, just becuase he was signed as a free agent or traded to bring in a free agents. There seems to be some stupid stupid perception that no one will want to play for a team that moves a guy that signed as a ufa - which isn't even the case with Gomez.

Hell, Philly, Boston and the NYR have been doing that for years and they have absolutely no problem in signing players. They have all dumped bad signings and got players to waive NTC or have waived bad signings. God forbid someone suggests that the habs do the same and everyone here goes paranoid on how classless that is. This is a business, if you make a mistake, you need to correct it. In a cap system the margin for error is to small. Look at the Blackhawks. They just won a cup and started dismantling their team to keep their core - which is what the Habs SHOULD have done in 1979 after Dryden, the roadrunner and Lemaire retired. The Hawks WILL dump Huet to the minors to get rid of his cap hit. They still won't have any issues attracting top players. No one is going to stop signing with Philly, for asking Gagne to waive his NTC, or Boston for asking Thomas to waive his NTC. Philly asked Roenick to waive his no NTC and dumped him to the lowly Kings and had absolutely no issues in getting UFA's to sign. Or don't people remember that Briere signed with them after that and not the habs.

Subban is signed through 2012 at 875K per. At that point he becomes an RFA, he will then have 4 more seasons before he becomes a UFA.

The GMs were handed this system to avoid overpaying young players and like always they did the exact opposite and escalated salaries. RFA offers are very rare and in a worst case scenario Subban will be signed to $5M per, so why give it to him if you don't have to?

If you give him a natural escalation to the top line defenseman we think he can be he will be looking at 875K, 875K, 1.75M, $2.5M, 3.5M and $5M. By the time he is due big money the Gomez/Cammalleri core will be off the books and you can buy up his UFA years in year 5 and 6. If he has a big season in between you still don't have to break the bank. I don't see why you would give him $5M when he would have 3 more RFA seasons left just to by up two UFA years.

In my scenario he will cost you under $15M for 6 years, if you hand him $15M after year 3 you are looking at closer to $20M.

Just because some GMs lock up young players doesn't mean everybody should. New Jersey didn't do it with Parise. They brought him

up at 21 and he went 700k, 700k, 2M, 2.5M and 3M and he has a 90+ and 80+ point season on his resume. He will get his payday

over the next year I am sure.

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RFA's are actually getting a lot more money in the past because teams don't want to risk letting them become UFA's. With the threat of an offer sheet, top tier RFA's are actually getting the same type of money that UFA's USED to get. Teams are willing to sign RFA's for more money in exchange for signing them past their UFA years.

Philly signed Carter and Richards to $5M+ after their initial 3 year deals. After their initial 3 year deals, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin all cashed in for $8M+. Big money were paid to Toews, Kane and Keith in Chicago after their initial contracts. LA is not signing the UFA Kovulchuk becuase they are worried that in a year Doughty and Johnson will become RFA's. This is the reality of the post-cap NHL.

If Subban puts up 60-65 points by the end of year 3, he will be looking for $5M+ and if we want to sign him for 2-4 years into his UFA years, it may cost more. The smart move now is to lock up your young core tplayers o longer term cap friendly contracts.

Top tier players are now signed to big contracts before hitting UFA. Big risk is that what if a guy has a big year in year 2 or 3, and gets signed to a big contract extention, he may go Gomez on you (i.e. contract year gets 80+ points and then regresses to a 55-60 point player).

I dont' see why people on this site have such an aversion of trying to move a guy, just becuase he was signed as a free agent or traded to bring in a free agents. There seems to be some stupid stupid perception that no one will want to play for a team that moves a guy that signed as a ufa - which isn't even the case with Gomez.

Hell, Philly, Boston and the NYR have been doing that for years and they have absolutely no problem in signing players. They have all dumped bad signings and got players to waive NTC or have waived bad signings. God forbid someone suggests that the habs do the same and everyone here goes paranoid on how classless that is. This is a business, if you make a mistake, you need to correct it. In a cap system the margin for error is to small. Look at the Blackhawks. They just won a cup and started dismantling their team to keep their core - which is what the Habs SHOULD have done in 1979 after Dryden, the roadrunner and Lemaire retired. The Hawks WILL dump Huet to the minors to get rid of his cap hit. They still won't have any issues attracting top players. No one is going to stop signing with Philly, for asking Gagne to waive his NTC, or Boston for asking Thomas to waive his NTC. Philly asked Roenick to waive his no NTC and dumped him to the lowly Kings and had absolutely no issues in getting UFA's to sign. Or don't people remember that Briere signed with them after that and not the habs.

Gomez is over paid but he still a good player....u keep looking at the point but you got to take in everthing else gomes does PK, leadership,fight, cup wins etc...HE just lead this team past the 2 best teams in the east in the playoff and this was his first year and you what to dump him...but who do u get to replace him????

you find all the problems with the team..how about the good? how do we fix these problems?

you think we got it bad look at Tampa bay players and their deals and where they finish last few years...

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Subban is signed through 2012 at 875K per. At that point he becomes an RFA, he will then have 4 more seasons before he becomes a UFA.

The GMs were handed this system to avoid overpaying young players and like always they did the exact opposite and escalated salaries. RFA offers are very rare and in a worst case scenario Subban will be signed to $5M per, so why give it to him if you don't have to?

If you give him a natural escalation to the top line defenseman we think he can be he will be looking at 875K, 875K, 1.75M, $2.5M, 3.5M and $5M. By the time he is due big money the Gomez/Cammalleri core will be off the books and you can buy up his UFA years in year 5 and 6. If he has a big season in between you still don't have to break the bank. I don't see why you would give him $5M when he would have 3 more RFA seasons left just to by up two UFA years.

In my scenario he will cost you under $15M for 6 years, if you hand him $15M after year 3 you are looking at closer to $20M.

Just because some GMs lock up young players doesn't mean everybody should. New Jersey didn't do it with Parise. They brought him

up at 21 and he went 700k, 700k, 2M, 2.5M and 3M and he has a 90+ and 80+ point season on his resume. He will get his payday

over the next year I am sure.

I'm note seeing the habs should sign him for $5M/per after his entry level deal is up in 2012, I'm saying you will probably will end up having to. The GM's in this league keep on undermining their own collective bargaining agreement. Parise is the exception. ALmost every other young star has been signed to stupid extentions while they have been free agents. Look at Bobby Ryan in Anaheim. He has turned down in excess of $5M/per season as an RFA. Crosby and malkin got $8.7M, Oveckin around $9M, Kane/Toews bewtween $5m-$6m. GM's don't have to, but out of fear that someone will pull a Kevin Lowe, who offered Vanek $7M and then penner over $4M, they end up over-paying. I don't know what Parise's numbers were after his first contract was up, but that may have factored into the equation. Most GM's these days are offering way more then they need to. These days RFA's are getting better deal's then UFA's. I think the rationale is that if you are going to sign someone to a big long-term deal, they would rather sign a 22-23 year old for 7 years then a 27 year old. What they forget is that there is no reason to pay RFA's more.

Look at Pouliot. There was absolutely NO REASON for not just offering him a qualifying offer and then negotiating a deal later. Instead he gets a huge raise for really only producing for 1/4 of the season and doing nothing in the playoffs. Most GM's in this leaugue are idiots. Others like Holland have set a bar and they stick to it. Given what Gauthier has already signed Pouliot to, do you think he is going to show the restraint needed going forward? Il'm still worried what he is going to offering Price this year, let alone what others will get 3 years from now.

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