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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Rebuild in disguise - Some confirmation?

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Gomez is over paid but he still a good player....u keep looking at the point but you got to take in everthing else gomes does PK, leadership,fight, cup wins etc...HE just lead this team past the 2 best teams in the east in the playoff and this was his first year and you what to dump him...but who do u get to replace him????

you find all the problems with the team..how about the good? how do we fix these problems?

you think we got it bad look at Tampa bay players and their deals and where they finish last few years...

I don't call getting into fights with the other teams 3rd/4th liners very smart. If Gomez fought a Richards or Crosby, it would be worth the trade-off. But getting into it with marginal players is a lousy tradeoff - something a vetern like him should know! There are other teams looking to move big contracts. Jeff Carter would be one option. At least his production warrents his contact.

With the number of teams looking for cap flexibility right now, this is the ideal time to have room to take on a big contract.

As far as Tampa goes, i think they can finish higher then us this year, now that there management/ownership circus is gone.

Edited by hab29RETIRED

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Look at Pouliot. There was absolutely NO REASON for not just offering him a qualifying offer and then negotiating a deal later. Instead he gets a huge raise for really only producing for 1/4 of the season and doing nothing in the playoffs. Most GM's in this leaugue are idiots. Others like Holland have set a bar and they stick to it. Given what Gauthier has already signed Pouliot to, do you think he is going to show the restraint needed going forward? Il'm still worried what he is going to offering Price this year, let alone what others will get 3 years from now.

Sure there was - they didn't want him going to arbitration and getting an award closer to $2 M so they settled in the middle of what his QO would've been and what he likely would have got in arbitration.

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As far as Tampa goes, i think they can finish higher then us this year, now that there management/ownership circus is gone.

I agree. I think that TB will be next year's Coyotes.

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Lets play 'pretend'. Say Gomez contract is off the books...what do you do, who would you have signed? My biggest problem with the Gomez must go crowd is they overestimate what other teams will give for him, undervalue his worth to the current team, and undercut what it'd cost to sign players to come here. The fact Gomez is EMBRACING the city of Montreal, not letting the media get to him, shows he is the kind of player you want. He's over paid by $2 million by most accounts, but the habs are not a $2 million contract away from the cup.

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Lets play 'pretend'. Say Gomez contract is off the books...what do you do, who would you have signed? My biggest problem with the Gomez must go crowd is they overestimate what other teams will give for him, undervalue his worth to the current team, and undercut what it'd cost to sign players to come here. The fact Gomez is EMBRACING the city of Montreal, not letting the media get to him, shows he is the kind of player you want. He's over paid by $2 million by most accounts, but the habs are not a $2 million contract away from the cup.

I would say its $2.5M over given his production the past three years. $2.5M would bring more depth to the D. But the point is the number of dumb big contracts we have. We have almost $13M tied up in Gomez and Hamrlik this year. $16.5M tied up to Gomez, Hamrlik and Spacek. You start adding up this signings and you are really limiting your chances of success. I would gladly have taken Lombardi at $3.5M or $3.75M over Gomez's $3.7M without thinking twice about it.

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Sure there was - they didn't want him going to arbitration and getting an award closer to $2 M so they settled in the middle of what his QO would've been and what he likely would have got in arbitration.

The point isn't just how much he was paid. There was NO REASON to make the offer at the time they did. They could have just gave him a qualifying offer now and signed him later. Get Laps signed and then get Price and Pouliot signed. Being overly generous to Pouliot is going to cost them with Laps as well.

The other thing is, if you are going to overpay, try and get another year added on at that rate. It amazes me how GM's seem to be bargaining against themselves at times. :wacko:

Edited by hab29RETIRED

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Subban is signed through 2012 at 875K per. At that point he becomes an RFA, he will then have 4 more seasons before he becomes a UFA.

The GMs were handed this system to avoid overpaying young players and like always they did the exact opposite and escalated salaries. RFA offers are very rare and in a worst case scenario Subban will be signed to $5M per, so why give it to him if you don't have to?

If you give him a natural escalation to the top line defenseman we think he can be he will be looking at 875K, 875K, 1.75M, $2.5M, 3.5M and $5M. By the time he is due big money the Gomez/Cammalleri core will be off the books and you can buy up his UFA years in year 5 and 6. If he has a big season in between you still don't have to break the bank. I don't see why you would give him $5M when he would have 3 more RFA seasons left just to by up two UFA years.

In my scenario he will cost you under $15M for 6 years, if you hand him $15M after year 3 you are looking at closer to $20M.

Just because some GMs lock up young players doesn't mean everybody should. New Jersey didn't do it with Parise. They brought him

up at 21 and he went 700k, 700k, 2M, 2.5M and 3M and he has a 90+ and 80+ point season on his resume. He will get his payday

over the next year I am sure.

Niklas Hjalmarsson just got offered $14-million over four-years from the Sharks. If he can get that much, I don't think it would be a stretch to think that Subban would get offered more in two years time.

Everyone's favourite internet nerd Eklund is reporting the Habs may be putting an offers sheet together for Bobby Ryan. If that happens that would be one of the few times, I'd actually hoping that clown's site is right.

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I would say its $2.5M over given his production the past three years. $2.5M would bring more depth to the D. But the point is the number of dumb big contracts we have. We have almost $13M tied up in Gomez and Hamrlik this year. $16.5M tied up to Gomez, Hamrlik and Spacek. You start adding up this signings and you are really limiting your chances of success. I would gladly have taken Lombardi at $3.5M or $3.75M over Gomez's $3.7M without thinking twice about it.

Just checking, you'd replace Gomez with Lombardi and depth on D? I don't get the whole depth on D, if anything, we have depth on D, and could do with dealing some away. Now if you said, replace Gomez, with say Bobby Ryan from the Ducks...I'd be on board with that. One thing, I've started doing is not just looking at numbers, but looking at what the player brings as a whole, and Gomez brings a lot of intangibles that I like.

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Everyone's favourite internet nerd Eklund is reporting the Habs may be putting an offers sheet together for Bobby Ryan. If that happens that would be one of the few times, I'd actually hoping that clown's site is right.

Our 2nd round draft pick in Florida says hi. No offer sheets from the Habs to anyone.

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Our 2nd round draft pick in Florida says hi. No offer sheets from the Habs to anyone.

dont we get another #2 pick for not resigning one of our kids?

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For not signing Fischer, yes. The problem is, it has to be your original draft pick to do this.

Although, this is not a sticking point. The habs could offer up to $4.99m/yr. I believe if its less than $5m it only costs you a 1st and a 3rd, but surely the ducks would match it if it was that low.

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Just checking, you'd replace Gomez with Lombardi and depth on D? I don't get the whole depth on D, if anything, we have depth on D, and could do with dealing some away. Now if you said, replace Gomez, with say Bobby Ryan from the Ducks...I'd be on board with that. One thing, I've started doing is not just looking at numbers, but looking at what the player brings as a whole, and Gomez brings a lot of intangibles that I like.

There is a diffference between having a lot of players signed on defence and having a good defence core or good depth at defence. We have a lot of Dmen that are #5-7, but really only Markov and Subban as elite dmen and Gorges is great as #4-5.

IMO, the team really should only have one of Hamrlik, Spacek and Gill. Given salaries, I'd keep Gill and get another decent Dman to replace Hamrlik (who would be great for $2.5M, but is a ripoff at $5.5M) and Spacek.

i'd LOVE to have Bobby Ryan, but on offense, IF Pouliot can come in stronger and IF AK46 comes in with his head screwed in right and IF Eller can at least contribute strongly as a third liner, we shold be better up front. That's a lot of ifs, but I'm much more worried about the age and transition game from our D. Either we have guys whose best years are behind them (Spacek, Hamrlik), big slow guys (Gill, O' Byrne) who can't move the puck to the advantage of our speed up front, or young inexperienced guys who still need to prove the belong (Weber, Carle).

To get a guy like Ryan - who has already turned down $5M+ from Anaheim, we would need to offer over $6M, which can't be accomplished by moving Gomez alone. We would also have to move at least hamrlik as well.

I would be much more optimistic about next year, if the habs could move Gomez and Harmlik for a Bobby Ryan, Lombardi type center and a Timonen type Dman.

Our 2nd round draft pick in Florida says hi. No offer sheets from the Habs to anyone.

Damn was that next year's pick. Great to give up the 2nd rounder for a guy for 3 months.

For not signing Fischer, yes. The problem is, it has to be your original draft pick to do this.

Although, this is not a sticking point. The habs could offer up to $4.99m/yr. I believe if its less than $5m it only costs you a 1st and a 3rd, but surely the ducks would match it if it was that low.

According to the Murray's media interviews, they already offered him $5M and were turned down. Burke is really high on him, i'm glad the leafs don't have picks either.

Edited by hab29RETIRED

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According to the Murray's media interviews, they already offered him $5M and were turned down. Burke is really high on him, i'm glad the leafs don't have picks either.

I heard it was not the dollar figures but the length that was in dispute, now I don't think we could get him, I was merely pointing out the conditions that would allow the habs to.

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The point isn't just how much he was paid. There was NO REASON to make the offer at the time they did. They could have just gave him a qualifying offer now and signed him later. Get Laps signed and then get Price and Pouliot signed. Being overly generous to Pouliot is going to cost them with Laps as well.

The other thing is, if you are going to overpay, try and get another year added on at that rate. It amazes me how GM's seem to be bargaining against themselves at times. :wacko:

If they give him the QO, he rejects and on July 5th files for arbitration. In the end, they likely come to the same result. I also wouldn't put Lapierre as a priority over Pouliot but it's moot since they all have to be signed anyways. When you go into the offseason, you set aside a flat amount for RFA's, it doesn't necessarily matter which order you go in - though it would've been nice to see Price signed by now.

$1.35M also isn't an overpayment knowing what arbitration could have given him; there was no way he was accepting his QO with arbitration rights, no one does. At 2 years, the salary would've had to have been closer to $2 mil which is quite frankly a big gamble given his struggles down the stretch. It was an unorthodox way to handle his contract but considering the other options, it probably was the best and safest route to take.

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I am no expert on Bobby Ryan. However, sometimes I get tired of watching other teams make all the really bold moves. If the Habs were to attempt a strike on him, it would make great sense in terms of team needs and I'd support it in principle. However, we should all then expect a retaliatory strike (e.g., on Price or Subban) somewhere down the line.

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I am no expert on Bobby Ryan. However, sometimes I get tired of watching other teams make all the really bold moves. If the Habs were to attempt a strike on him, it would make great sense in terms of team needs and I'd support it in principle. However, we should all then expect a retaliatory strike (e.g., on Price or Subban) somewhere down the line.

That's why I they shold try and get Price signed ASAP.

As far as future strikes on RFA's. As long as you keep some cap flexibility to match, you really don't have to worry. If the offer is high enough, it may even be worth walking away from, if the the multiple draft picks are a worth more then the player.

But sounds like a moot point if the #2 pick Gauthier gave up for Moore was next year's pick.

As far as bold moves, I totally agree about the lack of boldness by the habs. It sounds like Philly signed Zherdev for only $2M. If Zherdev is willing to come back from to the NHL for $2M, he should be motivated to put up some pretty good numbers this year.

Edited by hab29RETIRED

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Saying stuff like Zherdev should be motivated THIS year to put up good numbers, haven't we been through this before with Kovy. You want players that are motivated every year.

You want to talk about lack of boldness? Last offseason they went through the largest rebuild in the history of the NHL, not bold? They traded away their so called playoff hero for a blue chipper and a prospect, not bold? I think we've seen quite a bit of boldness this season.

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Saying stuff like Zherdev should be motivated THIS year to put up good numbers, haven't we been through this before with Kovy. You want players that are motivated every year.

You want to talk about lack of boldness? Last offseason they went through the largest rebuild in the history of the NHL, not bold? They traded away their so called playoff hero for a blue chipper and a prospect, not bold? I think we've seen quite a bit of boldness this season.

Yeah, you're right about that. My comment about being tired of watching other teams make the bold moves is nonsensical in those terms. And yet...I still feel as if there's something valid in what I say. But I admit it's hard to capture what that something is.

It may be as simple as the lack of really bold trades. Or it may be that the Habs seldom seem to do what teams like Philly and Chicago do, basically saying we want player X and damn the torpedoes. I find it hard to envision the Habs making the Pronger deal, for instance - an absolutely horrible deal in cap terms, but one that carried Philly to within a couple of games of the Stanley Cup. (For some reason, Philly fails to apply the same determination to their netminding). Would teams like San Jose, Chicago, Philly or Boston have tolerated the kind of glaring gaps at C, and size in the top-6, that Habs fans have been asked to tolerate for over a decade? Gainey finally went out and got Gomez, and my affection for Gomez's game is well-known around here, but really...that was Plan B or C and everyone knew it.

I dunno. There's just that sense that the Habs seem to struggle at going out and boldly addressing glaring issues that most other elite franchises would move heaven and earth to address. That's what I like about the Bobby Ryan scenario. It would show the Habs willing to be really bad-assed risk-takers in the quest, not just to be good, but to be a powerhouse - thinking really big and bold. But I could be just plain incoherent here.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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About Bobby Ryan - we might not have our 2nd, but we could still go to Anaheim (in a classier way) and say that if they're expecting to have him signed to an offer sheet, we'll pay them MORE than the offer sheet would give them (e.g. Kostitsyn, Weber, 1st, 2nd or some shit) in a trade. Could be worth it for them if they really can't get him signed.

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Yeah, you're right about that. My comment about being tired of watching other teams make the bold moves is nonsensical in those terms. And yet...I still feel as if there's something valid in what I say. But I admit it's hard to capture what that something is.

It may be as simple as the lack of really bold trades. Or it may be that the Habs seldom seem to do what teams like Philly and Chicago do, basically saying we want player X and damn the torpedoes. I find it hard to envision the Habs making the Pronger deal, for instance - an absolutely horrible deal in cap terms, but one that carried Philly to within a couple of games of the Stanley Cup. (For some reason, Philly fails to apply the same determination to their netminding). Would teams like San Jose, Chicago, Philly or Boston have tolerated the kind of glaring gaps at C, and size in the top-6, that Habs fans have been asked to tolerate for over a decade? Gainey finally went out and got Gomez, and my affection for Gomez's game is well-known around here, but really...that was Plan B or C and everyone knew it.

I dunno. There's just that sense that the Habs seem to struggle at going out and boldly addressing glaring issues that most other elite franchises would move heaven and earth to address. That's what I like about the Bobby Ryan scenario. It would show the Habs willing to be really bad-assed risk-takers in the quest, not just to be good, but to be a powerhouse - thinking really big and bold. But I could be just plain incoherent here.

I think what you are referring to is the feeling in almost every transaction that we have--at best-- broken even. I mean, Halak for Eller and Schultz is not going to have fans cheering and feeling we won the trade--not for years anyway, if ever. I long for the days of Kordic for Courtnall, but even the Gomez deal would have made me ecstatic if we had not given up a good prospect. I felt at the time since we were taking that monster contract we should have gotten more or given less. Anyway, its 3:30 am here and I am not sure that I am coherent, but I do feel the same way. Our moves this off-season may have been bold, they may have been right and PG may someday be revealed as a genius, but those moves have not been satisfying to my inner fan the way us signing Kovalchuk or Frolov might have been.

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Montreal is not the primary destination for UFA'S or players in general to come and play for. The NHL plan was to expand NHL hockey to more U.S cities and that phase all began with trading Wayne Gretzky to Los Angelos. The last canadian team to capture the stanley cup was montreal in 1993 therefor the last 18 stanley cups all went to U.S teams and markets. Is it pure coincidence? I don't think so!!! Our canadian players sold us out for money and self-interests. THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.......

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