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Trading PRICE vs Trading HALAK

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Did you miss this one also? "Jack, with all do respect, my 4 year old debates better than you do." That one was posted today. Or was this one a joke also? Maybe I'm missing something here but equating one's debating skills to a 4 year old is the same as calling someone illiterate, wouldn't you say?

I called it even for the situation linked later in this post.

And posting *publicly* that you almost gave someone a formal warning, is the same as actually giving them a formal warning, wouldn't you say that's so also?

No, because you are still able to post.

I don't recall this at all. Can you direct me to the post?

This is by far the most idiotic post I've read so far!!! (Notice I'm not calling YOU an idiot, just your post).

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Did you miss this one also? "Jack, with all do respect, my 4 year old debates better than you do." That one was posted today. Or was this one a joke also? Maybe I'm missing something here but equating one's debating skills to a 4 year old is the same as calling someone illiterate, wouldn't you say?

Comments like that happen often. Nobody gets warned for just one comment. It's only people that constantly wind up in arguments with other people. You're constantly insulting someone different, and always because of Price.

Speaking almost entirely about one topic + getting into fights almost every time = dangerously close to being a troll.

Other people have bashed Price and Gainey without being compared to someone's 4 year old or being told to get off their meds.

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So no insinuation here: I think your arguments against Price are ridiculous. Bringing up the playoff save percentage of a 22 year old? I think I read before that you're a teacher. If that's true, I don't see how you can write off development so easily.

Remember last year? Remember when I said that the NHL is *not* a development league?

Trizzak, I coached both hockey and football at the high school level. No kid on my team ever sat on a bench for any length of time. They all played. And I *never* yelled or screamed at them over a mistake. *But this was high school!* It wasn't the NHL or the CFL. Fans pay hundreds of dollars to watch a game. In return, the organization is supposed to put *the best product it can* on the playing field. Sure, I'm willing to allow Price time to develop *as long as he provides mid-range NHL-level goaltending* to the mix. I honestly don't believe Price is doing that on a consistent basis.

2 years ago, I was all for Price. When he played poorly against Philly in the 2nd round, I gave him a pass. Then he started last year pretty well. "Ah, last year against Philly was just an anomaly" I thought. But then we all know what he did in the 2nd half of the year and in the playoffs. This year, he started poorly, then played really well, and is now going back to being poor. I simply don't trust him anymore. I'm really fearful that his up and down play will cost us *for years* until they finally realize that this kid is going to be inconsistent for his entire career.

You know, I think this is the root of my dislike - this fear that I have that he'll play great for awhile, then poorly, on and on and on - costing us playoff series after playoff series. I don't know if you follow NFL football, but this is exactly what happened to the Buffalo Bills when Rob Johnson was around. The kid would play the odd great game. There was so much *potential.* Buffalo lost 3 years until they finally realized this was never gonna change.

I don't want to lose those 3 years. Either that, or I want to be completely and utterly wrong about Price...

This is by far the most idiotic post I've read so far!!! (Notice I'm not calling YOU an idiot, just your post).

You know, I was completely sincere in that post. I was really trying to avoid getting personal. If you were in the educational world, you'd understand this implicitly. We never tell a kid, "You were bad!" We say, "You did a bad thing." This takes away the personal element. I certainly wasn't gloating. That's why I was so surprised when I read your post where you said that.

This is the short-coming inherent in the written word. Intentions are often hard to discern when there's no body language present.

You're constantly insulting someone different, and always because of Price.

Could you provide examples please of my personally insulting someone specifically.

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Remember last year? Remember when I said that the NHL is *not* a development league?

I don't remember, but this, aha, now this is an interesting point worth delving into.

This I want to talk about more later.

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Could you provide examples please of my personally insulting someone specifically.

Just look at your posts in this thread - calling Fanpuck and Trizz illiterate (when it was you who hadn't read), calling the posters who support Price brainless Price-lovers, saying Trizzak was spreading propaganda for supporting Price, ...

(Before you say that terms like "Price lovers" are general, if you post them right after people defend Price, it's obvious that it's directed at them.)

This is just one of many threads......

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Just look at your posts in this thread - calling Fanpuck and Trizz illiterate (when it was you who hadn't read), calling the posters who support Price brainless Price-lovers, saying Trizzak was spreading propaganda for supporting Price, ...

(Before you say that terms like "Price lovers" are general, if you post them right after people defend Price, it's obvious that it's directed at them.)

This is just one of many threads......

yeah, what she said

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Remember last year? Remember when I said that the NHL is *not* a development league?

Trizzak, I coached both hockey and football at the high school level. No kid on my team ever sat on a bench for any length of time. They all played. And I *never* yelled or screamed at them over a mistake. *But this was high school!* It wasn't the NHL or the CFL. Fans pay hundreds of dollars to watch a game. In return, the organization is supposed to put *the best product it can* on the playing field. Sure, I'm willing to allow Price time to develop *as long as he provides mid-range NHL-level goaltending* to the mix. I honestly don't believe Price is doing that on a consistent basis.

2 years ago, I was all for Price. When he played poorly against Philly in the 2nd round, I gave him a pass. Then he started last year pretty well. "Ah, last year against Philly was just an anomaly" I thought. But then we all know what he did in the 2nd half of the year and in the playoffs. This year, he started poorly, then played really well, and is now going back to being poor. I simply don't trust him anymore. I'm really fearful that his up and down play will cost us *for years* until they finally realize that this kid is going to be inconsistent for his entire career.

You don't think he's doing this? I think he'd be a starter on some of the teams in the league and the backup on others. He'd platoon with most teams. I think if you watched goalies every night, they'd routinely let in bad goals. It's the nature of the position: when the goalie makes a mistake, everyone notices. From what I can see, there's too much comparison to Roy and Brodeur etc, etc. Would you rather have Toskala? Emery? Etc, ad nausum (nausea?) They're all inconsistent goalies who are prone to stupid mistakes. The difference is that Price is, as far as I can see, continuing to improve. Is he struggling a little more recently? Sure. But his overall level of play is still trending upwards. Without him during that 10-game spell a couple of weeks back, we'd be cozying up to Carolina.

Management has made their call: Price is going to learn on the job. They obviously feel he's old enough and I'm guessing they feel his maturity is now such that he should be able to work through tough patches. I'm fine with that. This is a good year to face puck. There's going to be a lot of it, and expectations are pretty low.

Compare Price with Luongo in his first years. And I don't care about the stats - I've not looked at them. But I saw Loo play. He was ludicrous at times. Made abysmal errors, and his rebound control made Halak's worst nights look brilliant. I recall thinking that he saw about twice as many shots as he needed because he kept allowing rebounds. Luongo's saving grace was that, while he was developing his talent, he had cat-like reflexes to fall back on. Price is already a better technical goalie than was Luongo in his first couple of years.

I also remember very clearly some of the debate on Patrick Roy and how, in his early years, he had to learn to rebound better after allowing a bad goal. He had a tendency, particularly in years two and three, if I recall correctly, of allowing goals in bursts before settling again. In fact, didn't he platoon and play only 50% of the time with a vet goalie?

Now, I'm not trying to insinuate with the previous argument that Price is or will be in their league. What I'm saying is that I believe we need to cut the kid some slack. He is still improving. I think that 10-game stretch was very telling. It wasn't just that he was stopping plenty of rubber, it was the way he did it and the attitude he displayed to back that up. That attitude was very much Roy - and yer old like me, so I know you'll remember that obnoxious swagger. ;)

My own personal opinion is that we have a diamond that needs polish. MAFleury sucked distended balls for a few years before finally becoming a reliable, and now Cup-winning, puck-stopper. And I think Price has much better skills than Fleury. Actually, I feel Price is far closer to Brodeur's style than any of the other goalies mentioned. He's not pure flutterby like Patty, and doesn't rely on reflexes nearly like Fleury and Luongo. He's hybrid, calm, and above all else, still learning. I like where his development is going.

You bring up the second half of last season, but that has to come with a large asterisk. He had a bad ankle injury and either was rushed back, or rushed himself back so he could get to that All-Star game. And there's nothing quite like the stupid All-Star game to absolutely kill a young goalie's confidence. Older guys are used to the shelling, but younger guys routinely struggle a little after playing there, as I recall. So once he got back to Montreal, his confidence was shot - probably mostly due to lingering pain in his ankle. From having my ankle destroyed, I can say that even if you're deemed fit for duty after 6 weeks to two months, it still hurts for the balance of a year. Add to that the spectacle that Montreal became, and the ability for any young kid to properly mature was surely lessened.

This year has shown a few bad goals, absolutely. But even then, he's still playing better than he did last season, and he's learning to face ample puck every night. Like I said, I feel he's trending upward - sure with a few setbacks. But I think he's going to be something awesome in the future.

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Just look at your posts in this thread - calling Fanpuck and Trizz illiterate (when it was you who hadn't read),

Now BTH, I only read the post after his edit. I had no way of knowing what exactly he had added. And when he himself said that he had to clarify his point even more by adding the relevant section, even though he intimated it shouldn't have been necessary, I still apologized. I think we both know that he *was* attacked for basically expressing his own original, and quite good opinion. Someone even said he should be banned. I personally consider that a lot worse than anything I've ever said.

However, having said all that, I will try to be more careful and not upset anyone's sensibilities in the future...

(Seeing as I'm going down to Florida for the next 2 weeks, that promise should be pretty easy to keep.) :lol:

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You don't think he's doing this? I think he'd be a starter on some of the teams in the league and the backup on others... etc.

Colin, I don't agree with most of what you said, but I almost always appreciate your posts. They're well-thought out and they don't get personal. (Well, one time you tried to "reform" me, but you were very kind in your approach.) :rolleyes:

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As mentioned, I'll be gone for 2 weeks, so...

- Even though some of you piss me off every now and then :)

- Even though I won't be around to educate you guys (and gals) :)

I want you all to know that I *love* this board - read it every day and...

I wish you all (and the Habs) a very happy holiday (misguided though you may be). :lol:

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Price is still just a young kid. (I am 43....I can call him that! :lol: )

It seems that most goalies take a few years to come into their own. I personally watched Carey Price lead the Hamilton Bulldogs to their first Calder Cup victory. We, in Hamilton, expected Yann Danis to start the playoff run, and suddenly, Carey Price showed up and took over (I'm not complaining though).

I still think that Price should have spent some more time in the AHL before joining the Habs....there have been too many times in the NHL that goalies have been rushed into the starting roles and have fallen into the abyss.....

Give Price his time.

He will come into his own given time.

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We, in Hamilton, expected Yann Danis to start the playoff run

Hadn't Halak wrestled the starting job from Danis by that point? Halak was playing much better, if I recall correctly.

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Hadn't Halak wrestled the starting job from Danis by that point? Halak was playing much better, if I recall correctly.

Yes, he had....but Halak went off to some European hockey tournament during that playoff year and missed out on the Calder Cup. Phillipe Sauve was the third goalie in that playoff run.....Price/Danis/Sauve.

Edited by Lammy

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Yes, he had....but Halak went off to some European hockey tournament during that playoff year and missed out on the Calder Cup. Phillipe Sauve was the third goalie in that playoff run.....Price/Danis/Suave.

Don't I feel like an idiot. Whenever I've debated people about the Price/Halak situation, I've always used that playoff run as the first time Halak had gotten screwed over by Price. Makes much more sense to me now that Price was named the starter.

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I recall that Carey Price was horrible in his first few games with the Bulldogs during the playoffs. That quickly changed. He found his "groove" and the rest is history. The Hamilton Bulldogs were the 2007 Calder Cup Champions and it would not have happened had not Carey Price been assigned to the Bulldogs.

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I don't remember, but this, aha, now this is an interesting point worth delving into.

This I want to talk about more later.

To jackp's statement that the NHL is not a development league, I will agree to a point.

This is a the league of the highest hockey skill in the world, and should only be open to the highest skill in the world.

The question needs to be asked, "Was there nothing more for Carey Price to learn in the AHL?"

Probably not. Winning a Calder Cup doesn't teach you everything. Carey Price had to come to the NHL to learn how to handle losing, and perhaps that was a lesson to be learned in the AHL. I do need to ask though, that since everyone seems to now have a low opinion on the abilities of the previous AHL coaching staff, would they be confident in now saying that was the best situation for Price to be in? That that was the tutelage that would have benefited him?

But even without taking into account the coaches, did Price have more to learn in the AHL before making the jump to the NHL?

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I'd like to trade this thread. Jackp can go as a throw in...... Futures anyone, any takers? :unsure:

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I'd like to trade this thread. Jackp can go as a throw in...... Futures anyone, any takers? :unsure:

I wouldn't give you a broken stick and a bag of pucks for it.

Price won't and shouldn't be traded. Enough said.

I don't care how insecure certain posters are with him, he is the best we have and one of the highest ranked young goalies in the game. Therefore he should stay until we either have someone better or a team offers us a francise player for him, which ain't going to happen. Halak has potential also, but not nearly as much. He isn't happy being backup, so he is trade bait. That is that. Why debate such an obvious point. Carey didn't go to Bob saying I want to play more so trade me. No, he won't bring the return Price would. That is because he doesn't have the potential Price has. If other teams thought he was nearly as good as Price we would have moved him already for an impact player.

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This is funny. there is no debate there.

you don't keep a Backup over a starter...

Price - Starter

Halak - Backup

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This is funny. there is no debate there.

you don't keep a Backup over a starter...

Price - Starter

Halak - Backup

If Halak, can put up another stellar performance and pick up the pace. He may give this a good shake up! Not to mention, BG's request for a Top Six forward in return for trading Halak is looking like it may pan out! GO HALAK GO! GO HABS GO!

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This is funny. there is no debate there.

you don't keep a Backup over a starter...

Price - Starter

Halak - Backup

Or is Halak a starter forced to be a backup?

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Come on guys...Halak had one good game where he played well, lets not start declaring him the next Roy. Did you notice why Halak had a good game? He worked on his rebounds, also the habs were very responsible in the D zone, was that caused by Halak, or the more obvious reason...Markov?

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Come on guys...Halak had one good game where he played well, lets not start declaring him the next Roy. Did you notice why Halak had a good game? He worked on his rebounds, also the habs were very responsible in the D zone, was that caused by Halak, or the more obvious reason...Markov?

Unfortunately, Price plays a good game and he is the next Roy too...

The reality is we have two young goalies who on their best nights look like a top 10 starter, but have yet to show the consistency and mental resolve to carry a team through a season. That goes for Price as well as Halak.

Most teams would solve this by playing a nice tandem with no real bias between the goalies as they both develop. As the season goes on, one hopefully emerges as your playoff guy, but at least the other is ready to come in if needed.

The other option is to have an experienced number 1, with another playing backup. Price should have been this backup for another year or two, imo. That would have allowed him to mature and develop in the NHL without the pressure of Montreal on his back.

Unfortunately, we have gone with the third option. Play favorites with one young goalie, annoint him number one, and discourage the other young kid. Now we have Halak wanting out and will probably end up relying on just Price again as the season progresses. Waste of a good young goalie if you ask me.

I hope that Gainey and company take a step back, give Halak more games, and let them both develop as a tandem. Keep them both happy and sharing the burden. Maybe next year, Price will be ready to carry the load and Halak can be moved to a team looking for a backup on the verge of taking over a team.

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Unfortunately, Price plays a good game and he is the next Roy too...

The reality is we have two young goalies who on their best nights look like a top 10 starter, but have yet to show the consistency and mental resolve to carry a team through a season. That goes for Price as well as Halak.

Most teams would solve this by playing a nice tandem with no real bias between the goalies as they both develop. As the season goes on, one hopefully emerges as your playoff guy, but at least the other is ready to come in if needed.

The other option is to have an experienced number 1, with another playing backup. Price should have been this backup for another year or two, imo. That would have allowed him to mature and develop in the NHL without the pressure of Montreal on his back.

Unfortunately, we have gone with the third option. Play favorites with one young goalie, annoint him number one, and discourage the other young kid. Now we have Halak wanting out and will probably end up relying on just Price again as the season progresses. Waste of a good young goalie if you ask me.

I hope that Gainey and company take a step back, give Halak more games, and let them both develop as a tandem. Keep them both happy and sharing the burden. Maybe next year, Price will be ready to carry the load and Halak can be moved to a team looking for a backup on the verge of taking over a team.

The thing is it isn't Gainey giving anybody games. Martin has played the goalie that he thought could win the game. Halak was great early in the season when Price was shaky. Price played some great games and then started letting in softies, so he started Halak. He started Halak a few times while Price was hot, and Halak's rebound control was horrible. After last night, i expect Halak will play more in the near future. The goalie that Martin has chosen game by game, has seemed logical enough to me.

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I see the argument for keeping Halak, but we have here an asset that could potentially be used to address other weaknesses, which is an overpowering argument for trading him. IF Bob can get a young top-6 forward back - asking Philly for Jeff Carter was exactly the right approach to take, although the odds of that deal going down are slim - then trade Halak and take your chances with Price.

(Of course, the topic of this thread is whether we should be trading Price instead. It's not going to happen, so I prefer to toy with scenarios that might actually have some purchase on reality; plus the whole Price-vs-Halak thing is tired).

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