JoeLassister Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: Building through the draft doesn't mean your entire team has to be players you've drafted. Galchenyuk is building through the draft, Beaulieu is building through the draft, Lehkonen is building through the draft. . You need young players on ELC's (or bridge deals), so you then in turn have money to spend on the veteran scorers of the league In salary cap era it's the only way to win a cup, so I'm not sure what your talking about Trading a second for Vanek was a hell of a move. Probably one of the best of Bergevin's career. I totally agree, but I will push it further. In my opinion, to win a Cup after you went with the "building through the draft" approach, you need young players on ELC's or bridge deals to be the major or main contributors to your Playoffs success. Beaulieu ain't projected to be a major contributor, same for Lehkonen (could very well become one during the playoffs though). Galchenyuk is though. That way, the money you save can bring back quality 2nd-3rd line players or 3rd-4th dmen. Why not 1st line our top pair ? Because these guys are locked around the league and are not going anywhere unless you overpay. Weber, Petry, Markov, Pacio and Radulov all part of our major contributors right now. Bergevin is building through the draft ? I don't buy that. He might be building the next Habs generation through the draft (Juulsen and Sergachev (+ maybe McCarron) being the beginning of it). But he certainly didn't build this one through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan1989 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Mb isn't building throught the draft. The fact is our prospect pool is weak ever since the cord now was called up (price,pac,gally) and at the time subban we never really re stocked the farm. Now we are feeling the effect of it. We don't have high prospects to pull off trades for top 6 players. Prospect we have now in the eyes of others are bottom 6 players. Don't know what we are doing wrong but we need to improve our drafting and re stock our farm system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 33 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said: Mb isn't building throught the draft. The fact is our prospect pool is weak ever since the cord now was called up (price,pac,gally) and at the time subban we never really re stocked the farm. Now we are feeling the effect of it. We don't have high prospects to pull off trades for top 6 players. Prospect we have now in the eyes of others are bottom 6 players. Don't know what we are doing wrong but we need to improve our drafting and re stock our farm system. Other than pure luck, there is only one way to garantee that : tanking. And I despise tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 52 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said: Mb isn't building throught the draft. The fact is our prospect pool is weak ever since the cord now was called up (price,pac,gally) and at the time subban we never really re stocked the farm. Now we are feeling the effect of it. We don't have high prospects to pull off trades for top 6 players. Prospect we have now in the eyes of others are bottom 6 players. Don't know what we are doing wrong but we need to improve our drafting and re stock our farm system. You do understand that when you finish top in the league most years, drafting impact players is a little more complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: You do understand that when you finish top in the league most years, drafting impact players is a little more complicated. No silly! They just need to draft 'better' and then all will be glorious rainbows and free beer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan1989 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Red wings, Blackhawks, pens, Sharks have all drafted good players . You don't need to tank just draft smarter which we don't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 22 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said: Red wings, Blackhawks, pens, Sharks have all drafted good players . You don't need to tank just draft smarter which we don't do. Asset management is also pretty important when you typically make the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehjay Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 On 1/25/2017 at 8:39 AM, BlueKross said: Galchenyuk has come back. The reason for Hanzal was to replace the void at center. We have done that most admirably sans Hanzal. I don't see the pressing need there was thought to be. Secondly, look for prices to drop, for secondary pieces, teams will want to get something for pieces of value they can not protect I think that "trade offer" was for Trouba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 hours ago, Habsfan1989 said: Red wings, Blackhawks, pens, Sharks have all drafted good players . You don't need to tank just draft smarter which we don't do. Comon'. Hawks and Pens are tanking Masters. Pens almost went bankrupt for sucking that much while the Hawks pretty much put on a tanking clinic in the early 2000's. This is basically how you build through the draft. Red Wings drafted their good players out of pure luck in rounds 6-7, just like we did with Markov and Gallagher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Hawks drafted Cam Barker (3rd), Jack Skille (7th), Kyle Beach (11th), and Mark McNeill (15th). They've been pretty mediocre as far as drafting goes. For every hit they had a big miss too. Which goes to show that if you want to build through the draft, get as many picks as possible, don't trade away picks. No one is perfect, so if you want to build through the draft, you need the quantity of picks so that when you take a bust, it doesn't hurt as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 13 hours ago, Habsfan1989 said: Red wings, Blackhawks, pens, Sharks have all drafted good players . You don't need to tank just draft smarter which we don't do. And exactly what does drafting 'smarter' mean...any examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, DON said: And exactly what does drafting 'smarter' mean...any examples? Hmmm. I'd like to hear this one too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan1989 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 drafting smarter, look at the 03' draft we could of had Bergeron and getzlaf on this team. We have missed out on a lot of nhl stars and drafted players that haven even ended up in nhl. That's what I mean by drafting smater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said: drafting smarter, look at the 03' draft we could of had Bergeron and getzlaf on this team. We have missed out on a lot of nhl stars and drafted players that haven even ended up in nhl. That's what I mean by drafting smater. Oh, you mean hindsight drafting? Most are pretty good at that. Timmins /Habs drafting record has been compiled, numbers have been crunched every way you can think of and Habs results have been shown to be above average over Timmins tenure. If you want to do some statistical analysis that disputes that, then I would be open to agree with you. But, it is way too easy to do the hindsight thing and you arnt alone in saying that Timmins/Habs should of done better...and they could of but any pro drafting (especially of 17-18 year old kids) is a crapshoot at best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 26 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said: drafting smarter, look at the 03' draft we could of had Bergeron and getzlaf on this team. We have missed out on a lot of nhl stars and drafted players that haven even ended up in nhl. That's what I mean by drafting smater. More than a dozen other teams passed on Getzlaf and every team, including the Bruins, passed on Bergeron at least once. The draft is more or less a crap shoot. More important than drafting is developing. Sticking with the 2003 draft, Kostitsyn was top 5 in talent and though he had some decent seasons, never put it all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Fanpuck33 said: More than a dozen other teams passed on Getzlaf and every team, including the Bruins, passed on Bergeron at least once. The draft is more or less a crap shoot. More important than drafting is developing. Sticking with the 2003 draft, Kostitsyn was top 5 in talent and though he had some decent seasons, never put it all together. Timmins and Gainey got too clever. Thought they had a first overall pick because they knew they could help his epilepsy. Should have went with the safe selection in Jeff Carter taken soon after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I don't think it's hindsight but drafting Fisher was really bad draft move. The other one for me was Leblanc when Kreider was on the board and taken with the next pick. That was a hometown pick for sure. Kreider had speed and size, no clue what leblanc had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Chris said: I don't think it's hindsight but drafting Fisher was really bad draft move. The other one for me was Leblanc when Kreider was on the board and taken with the next pick. That was a hometown pick for sure. Kreider had speed and size, no clue what leblanc had. Leblanc pick was an era specific mistake. It's hard to understand looking back but at the time, Mike Richards was obsessed over. People thought he was one of the best centres in the game. He just had back to back PPG seasons in 2009. Louis Leblanc pretty much played like a young Richards and was ranked high by scouts because of it. It wasn't just a hometown pick. Bob McKenzie had him high as well. He was a near Top 10 pick for most scouts. It's actually quite common for a guy to get drafted who plays similar to a current player tearing it up and never making it to the same level. Fischer was a huge mistake. People were high on him until his interviews and combine where even Doug McLean and the Columbus Blue Jackets went from draft him to don't touch him. Pretty much from the get go he didn't want to play in Montreal and Montreal was lucky he didn't because they got an extra pick out of him not signing. We traded the compensory 2nd to get Wisniewski. What kills me is that we had two shots at Claude Giroux. We selected 16th, we traded down to 20th, and still took Fischer. Doesn't sting as much as when we took Jason Ward when everyone expected us to take Marian Hossa but it's close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Every team has draft mistakes. It is a basic methodological error to cherry pick specific examples. What I will say is that any team that doesn't tank needs to score major contributors outside of the 1st round. Detroit built an entire generation of success on the back of two freak late-draft picks. Timmins drafted PK Subban in the 2nd round - that is bagging the equivalent of a 1st-overall pick. He also got Gallagher in round 5. That's the kind of thing teams must do, unless they pull a tank job. But that said, any assessment of the team's drafting has to rely on overall patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 14 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: Timmins and Gainey got too clever. Thought they had a first overall pick because they knew they could help his epilepsy. Should have went with the safe selection in Jeff Carter taken soon after. At the time no one was saying that, so saying that now means little, just another what-if. When he was chosen, seems most comments were "he fell to the Habs at 10" very skilled and good size, but has had seizure issues (Chernobyl side effects I say). His rookie or 1st full year, he had 26g & 5g 3a in 12playoff games, so he didn't start off too bad. But that was a long time ago now, so to gripe about it now holds about as much weight as saying, if Habs could of just scored in game 7 OT vs Bruins, they could of won 2011 cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I actually didn't realize how close kostitsyn was to Chernobyl. I guess not really a joke eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, DON said: At the time no one was saying that, so saying that now means little, just another what-if. When he was chosen, seems most comments were "he fell to the Habs at 10" very skilled and good size, but has had seizure issues (Chernobyl side effects I say). His rookie or 1st full year, he had 26g & 5g 3a in 12playoff games, so he didn't start off too bad. But that was a long time ago now, so to gripe about it now holds about as much weight as saying, if Habs could of just scored in game 7 OT vs Bruins, they could of won 2011 cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Stogey24 said: I actually didn't realize how close kostitsyn was to Chernobyl. I guess not really a joke eh Sorry to say not 100% joke, but is still just a Dr. Recchi diagnosis and AK46 has made millions of $$ so likely doing just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 What ever you do, don't google Chernobyl children Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 We're all pretty indoctrinated with the propaganda we were sold on Kostitsyn by the team in the aughts.. He wasn't even the best ranked European skater. Or second. He was behind Zherdev and Michalek. Had Vanek stayed in Europe he would have been fourth. Kostitsyn's "He might be top five" claim comes completely from a star showing in the U-18. People were high on him after that but not high enough to select him ahead of the Europeans who were better than him all year. But I mean, at least he wasn't Hugh Jessiman so whee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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