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Yep. Injuries are actually BAD for your cap space. When you have a guy injured, both he AND the callup count against the cap. If this situation puts you over the cap, you have to place guys on the Long Term IR, which means they will have to miss at least 10 games. They'll give you additional cap space worth the value of the injured player's cap hit (actually the value remaining on his contract once your total hits $56.7m). These aren't cap savings, they are simply ways to still compete when injuries hit your team big time.

To add Lecavalier without other roster moves beyond the trade, they'd need to have Tanguay PLUS another player on LTIR for most of the rest of the year.

Anyways, once Koivu gets back, I'm sure Stewart and maybe even Chipchura will be sent back to Hamilton which will save a couple hundred grand on the projected cap space. That's how the cap works... not the opposite.

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Sorry dude, but I,ll take Pierre McGuire's and Bob Mackenzie opinions before I'll take yours.

And both of them said that any trade for Vinny would be a 4 component deal. Ie: an established young player, a d-man, an excellent young prospect and a 1st round pick!

We aren't the ones who came up with the Higgins, Plex, Subban, Gorges and a 1st round pick rumour!

Except that those players are 2 estasblished young, cheap top 6 forwards, a young and probable top 4 d-man, a D prospect that is essentially the equivalent of a 1st round pick now AND another 1st rounder...that's pretty excessive on straight up value let alone when you consider the cost and cap hit of Lecavalier versus what you're moving.

That may be what Tampa WANTS but it's certainly not a fair deal on the Habs side. And there are some posts here saying the Habs SHOULD be dealing something along these lines...which I find incredulous.

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Just curious, who's a better and more dominant centre than Lecavalier besides Crosby, Thornton, and Malkin?

C's I consider better then Lecavalier:

Crosby

Malkin

Thornton

Datsyuk

Getzlaf - give me flak for this one if you want but the guy is playing great hockey...and Vinny is NOT.

C's I consider in the same tier as Lecavalier though clearly all are better or worse in various facets of the game:

Sundin

Spezza

Staal

Sedin

Stastny

Savard

Richards - on the same team he had years that were better and years that were worse...maybe a slight edge to Lecavalier but it's very close.

Sakic

Carter

(wow, lot's of guys who have last names that start with S... :blink: )

You might be able to argue that a couple of the younger guys aren't at his level yet but I believe they've proven themselves.

Guys who could be on that list by next year:

Krejci

Stamkos

Koivu (Mikko)

Backstrom

Tavares

Toews

Argue all you guys want but Lecavalier is underperforming this year, had 2 good years in a row but has typically been a 75 point type of player. He wears a C but he's always at the centre of media bubbles, wants in, wants out, etc. Is he a VERY good player? Yes, obviously. He can be a game changer. But he's not the same as some of those top guys...I could have made an argument that Spezza, Sundin, Sakic (when healthy), Carter, Richards and even Staal are better but I know I'd convince no one and the reality is that those guys are probably all on the same level. At the same time I could probably argue that Vinny is slightly ahead of Savard, Richards and Sedin on "leadership" but I'm not sold that he's more/less of a leader then any of those guys. Certainly, their offensive production is similar though those guys may be more on the playmaker side of the equation then Vinny.

At least 4 of the guys I listed for next year will be on par too. Guaranteed.

Koivu, Toews, Backstrom and Krejci are almost there already...Tavares will be regardless of production.

So, that's 18 guys and Vinny falls somewhere between 6 and 14 on the list...but the differences between 6 and 14 is marginal.

Considering his salary, length of contract and age you just don't give up 2 young, cheap, top 6 forwards, a top 4 d-man who is also young/cheap, PLUS throw in basically the equivalent of 2-3 1st round draft picks...which is what I've seen suggested.

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How the heck is Saku not on the long term injury list? What doctor boned that 1plus mill in cap saving?

He must have missed a quarter of the season or does it just seem that way.

What reason exists not to place players on that list? It would save cap space, I believe you need to be out a certain number of games. and I am sure we have players who qualify.

Confused again, just another day in my life..... :huh:

However, now I believe that if Vinnie comes, or captain remains AK27 and Saku has a new team!

No other centre will free up the needed space!

Our Centers become, Vinnie, Lang, Laps and Chips, Leaves us short on callups for that position, MaxDidn'tDoSoWell.

Again, I am not saying.....

I know you youngsters think he is the end all be all, but he is no #4!

He still reminds me how bad we were when our best was Saku Savage Ruzinsky! We stank!

He only has a few months contract left anyway.

Edited by johnnyhasbeen

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He wears a C but he's always at the centre of media bubbles, wants in, wants out, etc.

What are you talking about? Do you even know what you are talking about? If anything, Vinny has always been clear that he wanted to stay in Tampa. At no time has he ever said that he wanted out. Is it Vinny's fault if the people running the Lightning are complete idiots?

Argue all you guys want but Lecavalier is underperforming this year,

Ever thought that maybe he hadn't completely heal;ed from his Shoulder surgery??

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How the heck is Saku not on the long term injury list? What doctor boned that 1plus mill in cap saving?

He must have missed a quarter of the season or does it just seem that way.

What reason exists not to place players on that list? It would save cap space, I believe you need to be out a certain number of games. and I am sure we have players who qualify.

Confused again, just another day in my life..... :huh:

as I understand it (as explained by other, more knowledgeable folks on HW) - putting a guy on LTIR only creates a cap saving if the team goes over the cap to replace him. So lets say that the team was at ~ $57,700,000 in cap hit and Koivu got injured. Essentially LTIR would allow the team to replace Koivu with a player whose prorated salary was equal or less than Koivu's. Once Koivu came back from injury, the team would need to make a corresponding move to get back under the cap.

Let's say that Koivu had a prorated salary of $1M during his stint on LTIR and they replaced him with another player who only had a prorate d salary of $500k to replace him - creating an apparent $500k savings. This saving is illusory. When Koivu comes back, the team is not considered to be $500k under the cap - they are still right at the cap. The LTIR allowance is better thought of as a separate figure from the cap figure.

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Thanks simonsays, now it makes a litle more sense, Not at all what I thought.

Stupid cap! :P

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This might sound stupid, but you know what defenceman we really need? Sheldon Souray.

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This might sound stupid, but you know what defenceman we really need? Sheldon Souray.

Even though Souray is having a good year in Edmonton, and even though I miss his booming shot from the point...I DO NOT miss his defensive blunders in the defensive zone.

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Lecavalier would be a perfect fit for the Habs but i wouldn't give one of our top 4 D (Gorges). Higgins n plex byebye with a young D man prospect (one of the russians plz) and 1st round draft pick. And another draft pick rather than give Gorges!!

I still dunno how great of a deal this is... bringing in a huge contract like that might force us to drop some core pieces from our team in the near future.

But i do know it would be considered a homerun from the marketing and fans point of view!

Tough call, but for a cup.. i'd do it!!

It's really the after effects that scare me seing what happened to the bolts :S

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Well, I don't quite agree with Zowpeb's analysis, because it overlooks the fact that Vinny entered the league as a 19-year-old. He took a big step forward in his numbers when he hit 26, which is precisely the zone in which most players enter their prime. Joe Thronton shows roughly the same arc of development, for instance. So the idea that he's "really" a 75-80 point player overlooks the fact that he's scored 108 and 92 points as a 'mature' hockey player. I'll admit this season hasn't looked great, but there's the shoulder to consider, and there's also the awfulness of the team, etc.. In short, once Vinny stopped being a punk he became a bona fide elite C. Certainly ahead of Sedin (!), Stastny, Richards, Carter, etc., although a lot of those young guys are a lot more mature than Lecavalier was at the same age. (But that has no bearing on his effectiveness now). Even Malkin - let's wait and see how he evolves as a playoff performer and as a 'franchise' player before anointing him better than Lecavalier, shall we?

Having said all that, any proposal to trade either Markov or Komisarek should be laughed right out of town. A #1 D and/or a top-5 shutdown defenceman will be every bit as hard to acquire as that elusive big, star C that Vinny reperesents. It's just trading one glaring organizational weakness for another.

The rumours seem to be slowing down anyway. This could all prove moot.

Oh, and as for the idea that we dare not trade Higgins or we lose Komisarek...come on. Give our players more credit for professionalism than that.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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The rumour my friend told me he heard (clearly not a bulletproof source, but it's not like any of these mock trade offers are reliable) was Plekanec/Higgins, Carle/Weber, Subban and a package of picks (I guess 3-5 of them). Aside for the same salary issues, this one's a much more realistic trade.

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Lecavalier would be a perfect fit for the Habs but i wouldn't give one of our top 4 D (Gorges). Higgins n plex byebye with a young D man prospect (one of the russians plz) and 1st round draft pick. And another draft pick rather than give Gorges!!

I still dunno how great of a deal this is... bringing in a huge contract like that might force us to drop some core pieces from our team in the near future.

But i do know it would be considered a homerun from the marketing and fans point of view!

Tough call, but for a cup.. i'd do it!!

It's really the after effects that scare me seing what happened to the bolts :S

They had more than Vinnie's huge contract though! When they signed all those contracts we all knew it wouldn't last. tampa is run by fools as far as I can see. Now one player making 7 mill the cap allows for. Every team can afford one, I believe. Where we are set to have alot of young, inexpensive players in the lineup, filling top line or d-pairing holes, in the likes of MaxPac, Di'ago, McDonut,Subban, Weber....

Over the next couple years we are saving cap space with these guys. That should allow the room to carry one big contract and a 3 or 4 of 4-5.5 mills. Hopefully some vets return for cuts, but I don't see it.

Be a change, may cost some stability and depth. On the other hand, it is 25 in 100 we are talking. What price is too high? I know there is no promises that a top player will put you over the edge, but we are so close and the centennial and all.... I say get a rental or two. Has to be a UFA d-man on an out of the race team. Gauthier, Leopold, Schnieder but he is expensive.... Why not a little package for Sakic and Leopold. Both UFAs... Be cheaper than we Vinnie. Oh and it is so nice that the Avs are out of it! Finally!

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Why are we still talking about Vinny. He's not being traded.

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How the heck is Saku not on the long term injury list? What doctor boned that 1plus mill in cap saving?

He must have missed a quarter of the season or does it just seem that way.

What reason exists not to place players on that list? It would save cap space, I believe you need to be out a certain number of games. and I am sure we have players who qualify.

Confused again, just another day in my life..... :huh:

However, now I believe that if Vinnie comes, or captain remains AK27 and Saku has a new team!

No other centre will free up the needed space!

Our Centers become, Vinnie, Lang, Laps and Chips, Leaves us short on callups for that position, MaxDidn'tDoSoWell.

Again, I am not saying.....

I know you youngsters think he is the end all be all, but he is no #4!

He still reminds me how bad we were when our best was Saku Savage Ruzinsky! We stank!

He only has a few months contract left anyway.

Gainey would be a genius trading the Captain is the best thing for a team on a potential cup run.

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Why are we still talking about Vinny. He's not being traded.

Not being traded?? Because the Tampa GM said so? If anything, the denials are proof that it's a possibility. Maybe not to the Habs.

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I hope whoever trades for Lecavalier is nice enough to send his condolences to the Bolts because that's gonna put the final nails in their coffin.

I don't people seem to realize that Lecavalier is not just the face of the Tampa franchise, he's the most recognized sports figure in Tampa. That speaks volumes on its own since he's a HOCKEY PLAYER and to even think that the Lightning are trying to trade him is downright stupid.

R.I.P.

Tampa Bay Lightning

1992-2009

"At least they didn't choke like the Devil Rays when the championship was on the line."

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Not being traded?? Because the Tampa GM said so? If anything, the denials are proof that it's a possibility. Maybe not to the Habs.
Tell me about it. Spector (L. Richardson) has a great take on this fiasco:

Spector's Hockey News Ticker-The Lecavalier Rumour Circus

SPECTOR'S NOTE: Gainey doesn't like it when trade discussions hit the media, preferring to keep his business private. If he were interested in Lecavalier the leaked reports of an offer on the table might've soured him on the prospect of acquiring him. Meanwhile it doesn't appear as though GM Brian Lawton's denials have done anyting to quiet the situation. The Bolts have a PR problem on their hands when even their hometown media doesn't believe them. Lawton and Lecavalier should face the press together and end this nonsense (if that's what it truly is as they claim) once and for all.

Yup, for a team who has an asset like Lecavalier, they sure are not going out of their way to reassure him or protect him. Whether or not he's traded is one thing but to let him twist in the wind like this is ridiculous!

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Hey... didnt Gainey coach Lawton back in Minnesota?

Might give us a leg up on the deal... unless Gainey benched Lawton...

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Yup, for a team who has an asset like Lecavalier, they sure are not going out of their way to reassure him or protect him. Whether or not he's traded is one thing but to let him twist in the wind like this is ridiculous!

"To suggest we're engaging in conversations to trade him or we're shopping him to all teams in the National Hockey League is completely inaccurate," he said. "It's false, egregious and it's abusive toward the player. ... I can tell you if a player of that stature were ever going to be traded, I would go meet with him, face to face, and discuss the situation. That has never happened."

- Lawton

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If the Dan Boyle situation is anything to base this off of, we are clearly at the point where the owners are the ones going behind the GM's back to negotiate the trade. Remember, GM's were calling Jay Feaster at the draft about Boyle, and he knew nothing of the situation. Of course, he was fired a couple weeks later, but he was still the GM and the owners were negotiating behind his back.

Then, the Lightning denied Boyle was avialable. Only after all this did they go to the player and tell him he wasn't wanted anymore and that he should accept a trade (Boyle had a NTC, Vinny doesn't).

You can't trust any one individual in Tampa as telling the truth. Lawton might be sincere in his comments, but he might not know or be aware of the whole truth of the matter. Certainly it sounds like Vinny believes he is on the trading block.

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the ownership in tampa are too dumm to llet real hockey people handle the team , in the off season they were spending like drunk sailors with a brand new amex card. They wanted every name guy in the business. I personally would not have signed vinny for 11 years but what is done is done if we can benefit from their stupidity lets do it and if tampa falls through the cracks and is moved too bad so sad but upward and onward. I have no sympathy for stupid sunbelt owners they get what they deserve. come home vinny! :ghg: :ghg: :ghg:

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If the Dan Boyle situation is anything...
Thanks saskhab, I had forgotten about the Boyle situation. What in the blazes is wrong with those goofs in TB? Edited by Athlétique.Canadien

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Lecavalier has a goal and an assist already tonight...had a big game the last time T-Bay played too. Vinny is really picking up his game since the trade rumour intensified. I wonder if he's

A) Trying to show Tampa that they should keep him

or

B) Trying to showcase himself for the Habs to help speed up his escape from the sad-sack Lightning

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Forget it, the scoring is coming around. We are scoring goals against everyone (except, of course, the B's).

Go get that 4th d-man, Bouweesmeisterester. Cup winners can be rock-solid d's, choking out other teams (Detroit, Ana). Honestly, the combined potential of a d-corps with him in it (or another high-calibre d-man) is staggering, Komi-Hamr, Markov-Bouw, Gorges-Bouillion, with a healthy Price that looks very nice, offense, defense, transition, skating, size...The team is ready to win it now, we have a lot of nice d-prospects, go for it now with the d-man.

LeCavalier would be sweet...would he put us over the top? Especially if we give up Gorges, and have to rely on either O'Byrne or a rookie? We'd have to make another deal, methinks.

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