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Markov too = untouchable.

untouchable = almost impossible to replace in the actual context of the NHL

untouchable is NOT = I love that player and want to buy his Jersey

I'll relent, maybe I was to quick to use the word untouchable.

My thinking was these are you can build an effective team around.

And for a team like montreal whenever there is a french speaking player in a leadership role they are protected by the love of the local fans. But hey, if gretz can be traded anyone can (not that it really worked out for edmonton)

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So although Subban may turn out to be a great player, I will wait til I see

how he progresses in Hamilton and then Montreal before I label him untouchable.

So, he has to make the NHL before he can be considered "untouchable"?

If you had the rights to Tavares, would he be tradeable? Considering you haven't seen him perform at the AHL/NHL level yet.

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So, he has to make the NHL before he can be considered "untouchable"?

If you had the rights to Tavares, would he be tradeable? Considering you haven't seen him perform at the AHL/NHL level yet.

Yeah, that is what I am saying :rolleyes:

So although Subban may turn out to be a great player, I will wait til I see

how HE progresses in Hamilton and then Montreal before I label him untouchable.

Subban was an unknown outside of Belleville before the world juniors where as Tavares has been on the radar for 5 years.

I would not be judging Tavares on two weeks, I would be judging him on primetime coverage on Sportsnet,TSN,etc

for half a decade.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Yeah, that is what I am saying :rolleyes:

Subban was an unknown outside of Belleville before the world juniors where as Tavares has been on the radar for 5 years.

I would not be judging Tavares on two weeks, I would be judging him on primetime coverage on Sportsnet,TSN,etc

for half a decade.

Never judge a player by two weeks and junior stats. I have seen plenty of can't miss junior kids do nothing in the NHL.

The hype machine known as TSN has placed plenty of 19 year olds among the pantheon of greats, and three years later

the same guys were writing these players off.

Just saying :)

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Just like in the HWL, let's be honest, no one is truly untouchable. The fact is that anyone, for the right price, can be moved. To label players as untouchable is nothing more than saying they're a little harder to get. Unless Price and Bob are best friends and Bob isn't going anywhere anytime soon, even he can be moved.

Carbo :P

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You really think McD is better than Subban? Maybe you missed the World Juniors last year, but Subban is a future star. Lapierre may be only a third line centre but he plays hard, is amazing defensively, can score when neccesary, and is always the one we look to to provide a spark. Subban and Lapierre are both heart and soul players who you can build an effecvetive team around.

the reason BG traded McD is probably because we have Subban.

While I really agree with Wamsley's response I'd also like to think any quality GM knows SOMETHING about asset management...I'm not sure Gainey has displayed that in the Gomez deal.

McD is a better prospect then Subban...one day, who knows, Subban MAY become a better player and McD MAY fizzle but that is the less likely scenario. Even if the Habs brass knew something the rest of the world did not about McD's (such as character, or coachability, or whatever) they still could have received much more in MANY other deals where they included this kid. But that's rehashing a worn argument.

Subban and Lapierre are very replaceable players. Every team in the league has a "beloved" 3rd line, gritty, heart and soul player...with 2-5 prospects that are developing to that type of player. Every team has puck moving defensive prospects that need a lot of work on the D part of their game...Subban is a good prospect but he was not a 1st round pick that many thought, including Habs scouts, could/should have went higher on draft day.

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While I really agree with Wamsley's response I'd also like to think any quality GM knows SOMETHING about asset management...I'm not sure Gainey has displayed that in the Gomez deal.

McD is a better prospect then Subban...one day, who knows, Subban MAY become a better player and McD MAY fizzle but that is the less likely scenario. Even if the Habs brass knew something the rest of the world did not about McD's (such as character, or coachability, or whatever) they still could have received much more in MANY other deals where they included this kid. But that's rehashing a worn argument.

Subban and Lapierre are very replaceable players. Every team in the league has a "beloved" 3rd line, gritty, heart and soul player...with 2-5 prospects that are developing to that type of player. Every team has puck moving defensive prospects that need a lot of work on the D part of their game...Subban is a good prospect but he was not a 1st round pick that many thought, including Habs scouts, could/should have went higher on draft day.

McD makes me think of Hainsey. Very hyped by everyone, but somehow stalls in his development.

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While I really agree with Wamsley's response I'd also like to think any quality GM knows SOMETHING about asset management...I'm not sure Gainey has displayed that in the Gomez deal.

McD is a better prospect then Subban...one day, who knows, Subban MAY become a better player and McD MAY fizzle but that is the less likely scenario. Even if the Habs brass knew something the rest of the world did not about McD's (such as character, or coachability, or whatever) they still could have received much more in MANY other deals where they included this kid. But that's rehashing a worn argument.

Subban and Lapierre are very replaceable players. Every team in the league has a "beloved" 3rd line, gritty, heart and soul player...with 2-5 prospects that are developing to that type of player. Every team has puck moving defensive prospects that need a lot of work on the D part of their game...Subban is a good prospect but he was not a 1st round pick that many thought, including Habs scouts, could/should have went higher on draft day.

If that's what the basis of your knowledge on Subban is, leave it up to somone else who knows. :blink:

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McDonagh may turn out better, but he's clearly as of right now behind the 3 players he was picked ahead of by the Habs in 2007: Pacioretty, Subban, and Weber.

perhaps but subban and weber are the same size, both shoot right handed both are offensive and neither play too physical while Mcdonagh could've been a nice compliment to either.

now he's gone..time to look foward.

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perhaps but subban and weber are the same size, both shoot right handed both are offensive and neither play too physical while Mcdonagh could've been a nice compliment to either.

now he's gone..time to look foward.

Getting guys to compliment your core players is what free agency is for.

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Lapierre for 2nd line C!

with what offensive talent ??

he's a great 3rd liner but he hasn't enough talent to play Offensive too often.

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perhaps but subban and weber are the same size, both shoot right handed both are offensive and neither play too physical while Mcdonagh could've been a nice compliment to either.

now he's gone..time to look foward.

Good RH are extremely scarce in the whole league

LH are available per dozens each summer. We got 3 decent this summer only. I think it might have been taken into account by Gainey and co when they traded McD.

You have to see that as "trading money"... the scarcest it is, the most "valuable" it is.

e.g.

-a 30 y.o. French speaking backup is worthless (Denis, Lalime, Thibault, even Biron) (I'm joking about the french speaking... but it's still really not cool for these good guys)

-Coyotes grabbed a 5'8" LH center on waivers a couple of years ago : Daniel Brière. Habs signed a couple of those for the farm, hoping maybe to win a lottery : desharnais, russel, trotter, etc. those are cheap.

-BIG offensive centers centers are... impossible to get. It's as tough they do not exist. This is pretty expensive.

-RH centers are very hard to get too. We could get Lang and Metro, we have Lapierre, we got Dowd some seasons ago... but they ain't as good as e.g. Arnott

-LH Dmen, of almost all calibers (except elite) are available each summer on the free agent market.

-RH Dmen are so scarce, there was only Aucoin (and Komisarek) that I know of and who's worthy of mention (I haven't checked though), who was available this summer. The fact that Komi was the only valuable RH is one factor why he got overpaid by such a large margin.

etc.

So in assessing his assets, Gainey and co., at "comparable potential level", might put a priority in keeping what has the most value, i.e. Big Center and RH shooters/dmen.

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with what offensive talent ??

he's a great 3rd liner but he hasn't enough talent to play Offensive too often.

Maybe not, but maybe yes . . . why not give Lapierre a shot on the 2nd line, he's young and has some size and he's getting better every year, has guts and decent hands and, well, I like the look in his eyes hehehe.

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Maybe not, but maybe yes . . . why not give Lapierre a shot on the 2nd line, he's young and has some size and he's getting better every year, has guts and decent hands and, well, I like the look in his eyes hehehe.

AS much as I love Lapierre, I don't think he has or will ever have what it takes to become a solid 2nd line centre. He might have grit and speed, but I don't think he's skillfull enough to be a 2nd line centre.

Maybe he'll prove me wrong, and I really hope so, but I doubt it'll happen!

Edited by Habsfan
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If that's what the basis of your knowledge on Subban is, leave it up to somone else who knows. :blink:

I take it that you have an issue with my comment on his defensive ability? It's really the only thing you can challenge in my comment...and I'll stand behind it. IMO, from the games I've seen them play, McD is ahead of Subban in his own end...I'll fully admit that my opinion is based off of the games I could get on TV and what I could gleam from reports.

BTW, the quote from Timmins on Hockeys Future, in the draft review article, seemed to have a implication that he did not fully agree with McD being included in the deal. Anyone else get that feeling from the quote?

Edited by Zowpeb
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I take it that you have an issue with my comment on his defensive ability? It's really the only thing you can challenge in my comment...and I'll stand behind it. IMO, from the games I've seen them play, McD is ahead of Subban in his own end...I'll fully admit that my opinion is based off of the games I could get on TV and what I could gleam from reports.

BTW, the quote from Timmins on Hockeys Future, in the draft review article, seemed to have a implication that he did not fully agree with McD being included in the deal. Anyone else get that feeling from the quote?

I saw PK in about 45 games in the last two years and this "defensively weak" BS has been written about him only once in the media but has spun into a life of it's own and now has become "fact".The truth is that it was unwarranted then and it boarders on lunacy now.

No one who has coached him will ever agree with it and yet people still run with it like it is a common event. Step away from the "reports" and tv's and see a game to judge for yourself.

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i really haven't seen too much of subban. he seems pretty decent, but who really knows. i do like his attitude and character. seems like a kid who would do the CH proud, sort of like the way tremblay and houle used to.

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BTW, the quote from Timmins on Hockeys Future, in the draft review article, seemed to have a implication that he did not fully agree with McD being included in the deal. Anyone else get that feeling from the quote?

Yeah I thought the same thing when I read it. If I recall correctly, he also went out of his way (on a separate occasion, forget where) to give Andre Savard the credit for starting the Habs scouting department back up from the dead. And while AS certainly deserves the credit for it and usually doesn't get enough, the timing in relation to the previous comment and the McDonagh being included in the trade is interesting.

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I saw PK in about 45 games in the last two years and this "defensively weak" BS has been written about him only once in the media but has spun into a life of it's own and now has become "fact".The truth is that it was unwarranted then and it boarders on lunacy now.

No one who has coached him will ever agree with it and yet people still run with it like it is a common event. Step away from the "reports" and tv's and see a game to judge for yourself.

Hey, I'm saying his defensive game needs a lot of work...like many prospects. Saying that it borders on lunacy is extreme to the other end. In relation to McDonagh it's not even fair to compare their ability in their own ends.

The arrogance of "Step away from the "reports" and tv's and see a game to judge for yourself" simply makes me lose respect for your post. I have seen enough hockey to form a valid opinion without you coming off as the high and mighty hockey judge on the defensive ability of a PROSPECT IN JUNIOR. Give your head a shake.

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Hey, I'm saying his defensive game needs a lot of work...like many prospects. Saying that it borders on lunacy is extreme to the other end. In relation to McDonagh it's not even fair to compare their ability in their own ends.

The arrogance of "Step away from the "reports" and tv's and see a game to judge for yourself" simply makes me lose respect for your post. I have seen enough hockey to form a valid opinion without you coming off as the high and mighty hockey judge on the defensive ability of a PROSPECT IN JUNIOR. Give your head a shake.

Enough of the personal attacks.

It wasn't a personal attack, but thanks for blowing it out of proportion!

:rolleyes:

Edited by Habitforming
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