Permanent Rumour Thread

[CoRvInA]

Hmmm. It's a good, fundamental question.

In many ways the rebuild has already fallen apart: Higgins, Streit and Komisarek gone; its veteran anchors (Koivu, Kovalev) disposed of; its defining coach gone. We also threw away a lot of draft picks on Schneider, Lang, and Tanguay - all gone.

So there can be no question that Bob sacrificed a lot for short-term goals in 2008-09, and there's no question that core components of the rebuild have now been tossed overboard.

Bob has thus rebuilt on the fly via free agency. Two ways to look at it. One is that he's replaced a declining, aging, and inadequate core with a younger, superior one, and that this will provide a better platform for the up-and-coming young talent as well as the 'young vets' like Kostitsyn, Gorges, Price and Plekanec to succeed. So the 'plan' - building from within - continues, just with a new veteran core and minus Higgins and Komisarek, who were never that great anyway. (Well, maybe Komi).

The other is that he's failed to lock up core players (c.f. Komisarek) and has fatally locked us into bad contracts for years to come in order to field a competitive team in the short term. In this case, everything has indeed fallen apart because of short-term logic. Time will tell. I do feel we're in good company in spending to the cap, and if the cap doesn't collapse then I have no beef with this.

For me, Year 100 has to be viewed as an aberration. If Gainey wants this to be our new core I have no problem with it, but I emphatically don't want us throwing away further picks/young players, especially not to address temporary problems.

What I want is two things:

1. Better development of young players. We've tossed away too many talented youngsters because they were 'immature' (Ribs, Grabovski, and coming soon to a TSN update near you, at least one Kostitsyn) and we lost Komi (and perhaps indirectly Higgins) in part because of questionable contract policies and in part because of a lack of internal mentorship. There's a sense that Gainey is bringing an old-school logic to new-school young players and that a more proactive approach would have helped. (Martin over Carbo is a good step - maybe the crucial step - in this direction). Instead he's scrambled to repair problems that, ideally, would have been anticipated.

2. Better drafting. Sorry, but the Great Gainey Rebuild simply failed to yield elite talent except in goal. Not slagging Timmins here, but Higgins, Lapierre, Komisarek, Pacioretty, D'Agostini, Plekanec, the Kostityns, O'Byrne, Gorges (acquired through trade but still young)...NONE of these players has yet shown any convincing, consistent signs of being elite players. Not one of those forwards is unambiguously a top-6 forward in the NHL. I have no problem with the idea of four balanced lines, and I agree that these are all useful players...but the idea of the Habs as an elite drafting/developmental organization has to be questioned at this point. Other teams seem able to find convincingly strong players with some regularity. Our young guns, meanwhile, have turned out to be more like pop-guns.

So that's how I feel. Rebuild 1.0 didn't work out and it's partly Gainey's fault. Whether 'short term thinking' has fatally ruined us will be an open question until the future of the cap is resolved.

there are so many foregone conclusions in your theory that, frankly, have no basis my friend... I agree that the outcome tilt's in your favor

but do you not remember that this ill core you talk of, that which Gainey dismantled, finished first in the East not too long ago!

That core had a shelf-life and its the reason so many contracts ended simultaneously last year.

IMO the problem was:

1) Gainey believed too much in what Timmins had brought in from the drafts (hence C Julien's firing when GAiney didnt like the way Julien was treating the Kosties among others things ) Which sparked the first doubts in Gainey's mind that he needed to find out more about the team and the players... it also was the same time he gave extensions on contracts Koivu kovalev etc...

2) Last season, something very toxic was brooding... (we will never really know what it was or what sparked it) At first, it was dormant when the team was winning then the illness came to light when the team was losing.....This precipitated Carbo into paralysis and proved he was unable to act ot inform Gainey about it in time, maybe he didnt even want to admit there was something wrong. Gainey then took matters into his own hands... And I've said it before, proof of this is KOMISAREK signing in Toronto! Gainey was not able to persuade him HE DIDNT WANT TO STAY with the HABS...He and Chris Higgins (who was ecstatic when traded) knew what was putrid in the team.. Think about it Komi went to TO to Brian Burke for crying out loud. A yoga and spiritual athlete that he was he left to play with the laughs!!!

THERE IS NO COACH NO GM That Could ever have guessed the outcome of last season....unless they had a team of shrinks and whistle blowers.

3) Jacques Martin was not brought in only for his ability to win games! he was brought in to exorcise the demons in this team... BG needed an experienced colleague to tackle the Virus together and clean-up the mess, and see if there were any other infected players that could still be saved

What Gainey has done my friend, in light of the unexpected difficulties that arose... IMO was Masterful!!!! (time will tell!!!)

Thank you

Edited October 7, 2009 by CoRvInA

[Wamsley01]

wtf?

28 y.o., 29 y.o. and 30 y.o. (camm, gomer and gionta)

all locked up for 5 years.

that's short term?

5 years ago we drafted Kostytsyn

6 years ago we drafted Chipchura

those guys are still projects!

that's frikkin LONG TIME in hockey.

if you hate the habs so much guys, just go on a leafs board, im getting sick and tired of your constant useless destructive rambling.

no place for that on a "fans" board.

YAWN. Funny how I am a kool-aid drinker when I defend Price and Gainey, and destructive when I don't support

the plan blindly. This is no longer about moral victories, it is no longer about, "who cares we have a great future",

this is the team that will take it's shot at the Cup.

This has nothing to do with their age. It has to do with the finality of the moves. This is the team.

This IS NOT a rebuild. And these moves were not made with 2 years down the road in mind.

The team is better this season, but will it be next year when they have to re-up Price @ $4M+.

So next season they will have Gionta, Gomez and Cammalari wrapped up @ $22-23M best case scenario.

If the cap declines then what? If Plekanec continues his strong play going into a UFA season, then what? What is his cost?

Do they overpay because their biggest organizational weakness is centers? He is already making close to $3M.

So while the Pens have their $23M wrapped up in Malkin, Crosby and Fleury and the Caps have their $23M wrapped

up in Ovechkin, Green and Semin the Canadiens move forward with Gionta, Gomez and Cammalari and Price.

So ALL of you better hope I have been right about Price for the last 3 years, because ALL OF THIS hinges on him becoming a superstar.

If he does, then they can contend, if he does not then be prepared for the 1993 chants soon.

[alexstream]

????

Wamsley is one of the very best contributors around here and doesn't deserve that. Chill out.

i know, im not aiming at him specifically, he was quoting you and you were the one mentioning the "Sacrificing a lot for short-term".

im just constantly reading bs from so-called fans who are mad that e.g. Gainey let Koivu walk. (just using koivu there, it could be komi, kovalev, ribeiro, beauchemin, etc)

are you a Habs fan or a (e.g.) Koivu fan?

if you are a Habs fan, concentrate on hockey and not on trying to find negatives in anything.

I strongly believe that this offseason settled the team for the next 5 years and is WAY MORE long term oriented than holding on to Koivu (1-2 more seasons?), Kovalev (2-3 more seasons?), etc.

The only "old" guys we added were Gill and Spacek.

I loved the show and the new players, their dedication, etc. up to now and I see no reason to try to find negative in anything. It's irritating, to say the least.

[habs rule]

there are so many foregone conclusions in your theory that, frankly, have no basis my friend... I agree that the outcome tilt's in your favor

but do you not remember that this ill core you talk of, that which Gainey dismantled, finished first in the East not too long ago!

That core had a shelf-life and its the reason so many contracts ended simultaneously last year.

IMO the problem was:

1) Gainey believed too much in what Timmins had brought in from the drafts (hence C Julien's firing when GAiney didnt like the way Julien was treating the Kosties among others things ) Which sparked the first doubts in Gainey's mind that he needed to find out more about the team and the players... it also was the same time he gave extensions on contracts Koivu kovalev etc...

2) Last season, something very toxic was brooding... (we will never really know what it was or what sparked it) At first, it was dormant when the team was winning then the illness came to light when the team was losing.....This precipitated Carbo into paralysis and proved he was unable to act ot inform Gainey about it in time, maybe he didnt even want to admit there was something wrong. Gainey then took matters into his own hands... And I've said it before, proof of this is KOMISAREK signing in Toronto! Gainey was not able to persuade him HE DIDNT WANT TO STAY with the HABS...He and Chris Higgins (who was ecstatic when traded) knew what was putrid in the team.. Think about it Komi went to TO to Brian Burke for crying out loud. A yoga and spiritual athlete that he was he left to play with the laughs!!!

THERE IS NO COACH NO GM That Could ever have guessed the outcome of last season....unless they had a team of shrinks and whistle blowers.

3) Jacques Martin was not brought in only for his ability to win games! he was brought in to exorcise the demons in this team... BG needed an experienced colleague to tackle the Virus together and clean-up the mess, and see if there were any other infected players that could still be saved

What Gainey has done my friend, in light of the unexpected difficulties that arose... IMO was Masterful!!!! (time will tell!!!)

Thank you

this is a post I agree with totally. All last year I kept saying that the reason Bob did not negotiate new contracts is because if this team did not work they were all gone. And lo and behold we have purchased a new core.

[alexstream]

YAWN. Funny how I am a kool-aid drinker when I defend Price and Gainey, and destructive when I don't support

the plan blindly. This is no longer about moral victories, it is no longer about, "who cares we have a great future",

this is the team that will take it's shot at the Cup.

This has nothing to do with their age. It has to do with the finality of the moves. This is the team.

This IS NOT a rebuild. And these moves were not made with 2 years down the road in mind.

The team is better this season, but will it be next year when they have to re-up Price @ $4M+.

So next season they will have Gionta, Gomez and Cammalari wrapped up @ $22-23M best case scenario.

If the cap declines then what? If Plekanec continues his strong play going into a UFA season, then what? What is his cost?

Do they overpay because their biggest organizational weakness is centers? He is already making close to $3M.

So while the Pens have their $23M wrapped up in Malkin, Crosby and Fleury and the Caps have their $23M wrapped

up in Ovechkin, Green and Semin the Canadiens move forward with Gionta, Gomez and Cammalari and Price.

So ALL of you better hope I have been right about Price for the last 3 years, because ALL OF THIS hinges on him becoming a superstar.

If he does, then they can contend, if he does not then be prepared for the 1993 chants soon.

I see it as a rebuild.

Gomez - Gio - Camm is a better basis for a team than Koivu - Kovalev - Tanguay

I see it as a good NOW and THEN move.

The crease is good and Price will likely sign a killer 5 M to infinity contract.

The dman is not to be complained of, with a bunch of guys developping and with Markov holding the fort. OB also kinda awakening is reassuring.

I think the team is good now, but I also think the team can be better next year and the year after. We still have a TOP farm despite giving up McDonaugh

We still have good young Vets despite losing Higgins and Komo.

I don't see what's wrong, I don't see the WIN NOW panic button.

This team is fun and exciting and the future is STILL promising. I mean, I take a look at hockey's future ranking and I still have great hopes.

[habs rule]

i know, im not aiming at him specifically, he was quoting you and you were the one mentioning the "Sacrificing a lot for short-term".

im just constantly reading bs from so-called fans who are mad that e.g. Gainey let Koivu walk. (just using koivu there, it could be komi, kovalev, ribeiro, beauchemin, etc)

are you a Habs fan or a (e.g.) Koivu fan?

if you are a Habs fan, concentrate on hockey and not on trying to find negatives in anything.

I strongly believe that this offseason settled the team for the next 5 years and is WAY MORE long term oriented than holding on to Koivu (1-2 more seasons?), Kovalev (2-3 more seasons?), etc.

The only "old" guys we added were Gill and Spacek.

I loved the show and the new players, their dedication, etc. up to now and I see no reason to try to find negative in anything. It's irritating, to say the least.

quite true, I agree

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, Wamsley's right about one thing. Bob sank the equivalent dough into Cammy, Gionta and Gomez that rivals are sinking into the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury - and he did this in a way that ties us in for years. It is certainly possible to argue that this is 'short term' thinking IF we believe that Bob would have been able to sign TRUE superstars with that money had he been willing to wait out another season or two . If we believe that, then clearly Bob was motivated by a desire to be better this season and wasn't thinking ahead. I believe this is Wamsley's argument.

And it's a good argument. But it really only has force if we believe that

1. the cap is going to shrink substantially and

2. this will result in teams unloading franchise players which teams with cap space can then scoop up. Even if #1 happens it doesn't necessarily mean #2 will. (E.g., in shedding salary TB ditched Boyle and Richards, NOT Vinny).

In the absence of either condition #1 or #2, then what Bob has done is work effectively within the limitations of his own very mixed drafting record. As I said, and nobody has challenged it, the Gainey regime has singularly failed to draft and develop ANY elite player at ANY position except goal. This, IMHO, is our REAL problem and has been for some time. So now what Bob has done is sign three bona fide top-6 forwards. The Gainey/Timmins pattern of drafting 'useful' midrange players should then provide him with enough cheap filler to round out the roster effectively. And Price holds the fort. The keys on this model will be, as they have been with New Jersey, great coaching/team play, great goaltending, and all-around balanced production rooted in a handful of exceptionally strong individual players (but not franchise players) and above-average and cheap 'role' players (e.g., Plekanec, Lats, Laps, Kostitsyn).

That would be the anti-Wamsley analysis. Assuming no cap collapse and/or sudden shedding of franchise players, Bob's corrected for his own limited draft success and put a model in place that, provided Price pans out as expected, should make us New Jersey Devils North going forward. That wouldn't be 'short term' thinking, it would be a defensible team-building model.

I don't know if the cap is going to collapse or not and, if it does, whether we could snap up franchise players as a result. But Bob's tenure should probably be judged on how that plays out.

[CoRvInA]

Well, Wamsley's right about one thing. Bob sank the equivalent dough into Cammy, Gionta and Gomez that rivals are sinking into the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury - and he did this in a way that ties us in for years. It is certainly possible to argue that this is 'short term' thinking IF we believe that Bob would have been able to sign TRUE superstars with that money had he been willing to wait out another season or two . If we believe that, then clearly Bob was motivated by a desire to be better this season and wasn't thinking ahead. I believe this is Wamsley's argument.

Im sorry I believe he is not!.. You cannot compare those signings and locking the $$ on those players to ours!!!... I ask you what trade or transaction did those teams do to get Fleury, Ovechkin, Semin, Crosby Malkin etc...????

ANSWER NONE because they sucked for 10 years to get first draft picks!!!!!!

... So BG tried his best to get one he could blimdly lock up for ever.."LeCavalier" and it didn't not work...

SO you have NO CHOICE but to compete with the rest of the league for the sloppy seconds and of course YOUR COMPETING... you think Cammy and GIonta had no other offers???? Everyone is entitled to an opinion... like this player is better to this or that team is better than that... but to err in the reasoning behind investing on non Superstar players because we can't draft any or attract them on their own will is *&$@$@$% sorry!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Im sorry I believe he is not!.. You cannot compare those signings and locking the $$ on those players to ours!!!... I ask you what trade or transaction did those teams do to get Fleury, Ovechkin, Semin, Crosby Malkin etc...????

ANSWER NONE because they sucked for 10 years to get first draft picks!!!!!!

... So BG tried his best to get one he could blimdly lock up for ever.."LeCavalier" and it didn't not work...

SO you have NO CHOICE but to compete with the rest of the league for the sloppy seconds and of course YOUR COMPETING... you think Cammy and GIonta had no other offers???? Everyone is entitled to an opinion... like this player is better to this or that team is better than that... but to err in the reasoning behind investing on non Superstar players because we can't draft any or attract them on their own will is *&$@$@$% sorry!

Basically, your argument is that Bob had 'no choice' but to sign 'sloppy seconds' and we should be happy about it. OK. How about considering Wamsley's view that Bob would have been able to bag FRANCHISE PLAYERS if only he'd waited for the cap to shrink? In any case, your post is so incoherent as a response to mine that I don't even know where to begin responding to it, since it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I was saying in that post.

[Habsfan]

????

Wamsley is one of the very best contributors around here and doesn't deserve that. Chill out.

Correction! Both you and Wamsley are great contributors to this forum! Alex, that was not necessary!

I have to say that I mostly agree with C.C.'s assessment of the situation. I also have somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth after what has happenned with my beloved Habs over the past 18 months. I'm not saying that I won't follow the habs anymore, I'm not saying that I'll stop watching the games or going to the Bell Centre as often as I can, but I am disappointed somewhat!

On a brighter note, I love the signings of Camalerri and Gionta. I hope Gionta will be able to produce 30 goals per year when he'll be 33 years old?!?!? I also have high Hopes for Carey, he is the gem of the organization, we just have to be patient with him! I also love the acquisition of Jacques Martin behind the Bench. His presence should calm things down in the dressing room!

Edited October 7, 2009 by Habsfan

[alexstream]

Well, Wamsley's right about one thing. Bob sank the equivalent dough into Cammy, Gionta and Gomez that rivals are sinking into the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury - and he did this in a way that ties us in for years. It is certainly possible to argue that this is 'short term' thinking IF we believe that Bob would have been able to sign TRUE superstars with that money had he been willing to wait out another season or two . If we believe that, then clearly Bob was motivated by a desire to be better this season and wasn't thinking ahead. I believe this is Wamsley's argument.

And it's a good argument. But it really only has force if we believe that

1. the cap is going to shrink substantially and

2. this will result in teams unloading franchise players which teams with cap space can then scoop up. Even if #1 happens it doesn't necessarily mean #2 will. (E.g., in shedding salary TB ditched Boyle and Richards, NOT Vinny).

In the absence of either condition #1 or #2, then what Bob has done is work effectively within the limitations of his own very mixed drafting record. As I said, and nobody has challenged it, the Gainey regime has singularly failed to draft and develop ANY elite player at ANY position except goal. This, IMHO, is our REAL problem and has been for some time. So now what Bob has done is sign three bona fide top-6 forwards. The Gainey/Timmins pattern of drafting 'useful' midrange players should then provide him with enough cheap filler to round out the roster effectively. And Price holds the fort. The keys on this model will be, as they have been with New Jersey, great coaching/team play, great goaltending, and all-around balanced production rooted in a handful of exceptionally strong individual players (but not franchise players) and above-average and cheap 'role' players (e.g., Plekanec, Lats, Laps, Kostitsyn).

That would be the anti-Wamsley analysis. Assuming no cap collapse and/or sudden shedding of franchise players, Bob's corrected for his own limited draft success and put a model in place that, provided Price pans out as expected, should make us New Jersey Devils North going forward. That wouldn't be 'short term' thinking, it would be a defensible team-building model.

I don't know if the cap is going to collapse or not and, if it does, whether we could snap up franchise players as a result. But Bob's tenure should probably be judged on how that plays out.

yes that's 100% true (Cap locked in some players). but it doesn't stop there.

they will likely lose Gonchar (rumour, capwise, etc), they have to rely on guys like Satan and Sykora on the FA market...

we have Markov for ever (likely), we have Kost, Gui, etc who have more upside than their veteran floaters.

they have more elite, we have more depth.

yes they won the cup. Down the road, they will have decisions to make though.

down the road however, i think we could keep that team for 10 years! right, if the cap doesn't go up, we have to shed Hamr to add a Marleau (speculation / example) however, we have the Ds to replace Hamr. Who do the Pens have on the wings? who can they get? They had to trade Whitney to get Kunitz because they were badly in need of wingers.

about the "cap theory"

what goes down must come up... if the cap drops, it drops for everyone and will come up the next year or so. right now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the salary level is higher than it was before the lockout (I have no clue about that though)

If it goes down, Flyers are screwed, Rangers are screwed, even the "lowly" LEAFS are screwed etc.

My guess, with all the big players involved, it will never go down again. The Rangers and the Leafs were opposed to a cap to start with, they WANT to spend. the higher the cap, the better it is for them since it gives them back their "spending power" edge that Nashville or Buffalo cannot top.

I think it's totally irrelevant to focus on that ONE argument to judge Gainey's work.

-it's mere speculation and it is only a remote possibility among others. The sky might fall too, you know

-if it happens, it happens for everyone, i.e. we're not worse off. Should we take the "wait and see" approach instead and not lock anyone untill hell freezes over (i.e. the cap falls)?? Well Gainey kinda slightly banked on that. that was part of the reason why we had so many FAs and such, he thought that he would be able to collect players for cheap because of a lowered Cap at the start of this season. It didn't happen, so he went on a spending spree during a summer in which GMs were apparently more cautious than before. e.g. a team like Nashville didn't offer a 7M contract to Cammalleri like they could have any other offseason. So with hindsight, spending this summer could be a genius move?! we can't know, it's speculation. we don't know yet, it's useless, it's being overly negative/positive about mere speculations, it's focusing on unknown details rather than on the excitement to see Cammalleri's takeway on a Flames player, make that beautiful pass to Gomez and firing that one timer!!

about drafting elite players...

you're right. we failed beside Price. beside Streit according to NYI's fans. ( i was about to say Komi according to TO fans, but komi was there before timmins )

Beside what A.Kost still promises at only 24 y.o.

MaxPax, Avstin, Maxwell, Subban, Fischer, Nattinen, Leblanc and co. are all extremely young to be called elite or not.

still.

what elite players had we drafted from our 1993 Stanley Cup?

Roy. yes.

Carbonneau was elite?

Desjardins was elite?

Daigneault?

Dionne?

Lebeau?

Muller and Damphousse, yes. But we had traded for them.

anyhow, the post is already too long.

Good game tonight. Don't spend too much time on posts like those guys. Watch the game, the highlights, go to youtube, check Pavel Bure's top ten.

On videotron Illico, centerice is free this month. It's the channels around 420 i think. Have fun.

Schneider?

[Habsfan]

On videotron Illico, centerice is free this month. It's the channels around 420 i think. Have fun.

Thanks for the heads up :bow:

I have Illico and I can't seem to find the channel I checked out channel 420 and it's KOMO, not centerIce??

[BCHabnut]

While I have always supported Wamsley's stance on throwing away the year in order to sign top free agents when and if the cap shrinks, do you reaaly think this is a wise management style? For the team it would have been great, IF THE CAP GOES DOWN. But Gainey would have surely been fired. While some of the high profile FAs on the team may have signed a 1 year deal, many would not have. Now Tanguay, Kovy, Komi, and a score of others are gone, and nobody replaces them. Unless the sell was amazing, (rebuild 2.0_ it would have cost Gainey his job by December. I don't defend him, but waiting and hoping that the cap shrinks is a much bigger gamble than blowing up the team and signing the best players that are willing to come over. You are right that this is the team. There is no rebuild. But if I was the manager trying to protect my job, I would not allow the FAs to walk without replacing them.

[BTH]

It is short-sighted because our team has very little potential to improve in future seasons. Anyone who surprises will have to walk for the big contract the following season. We have far too many big contracts now and Price is due for one at the end of the season. We aren't screwed, but we're likely to be "just good" with this team for some time. If Price becomes a franchise goalie we'll float around the Cup contender level. Everything is invested in Price.

[habs rule]

While I have always supported Wamsley's stance on throwing away the year in order to sign top free agents when and if the cap shrinks, do you reaaly think this is a wise management style? For the team it would have been great, IF THE CAP GOES DOWN. But Gainey would have surely been fired. While some of the high profile FAs on the team may have signed a 1 year deal, many would not have. Now Tanguay, Kovy, Komi, and a score of others are gone, and nobody replaces them. Unless the sell was amazing, (rebuild 2.0_ it would have cost Gainey his job by December. I don't defend him, but waiting and hoping that the cap shrinks is a much bigger gamble than blowing up the team and signing the best players that are willing to come over. You are right that this is the team. There is no rebuild. But if I was the manager trying to protect my job, I would not allow the FAs to walk without replacing them.

look at what happened to the guys that walked..... other than kovy and komi they all took salary cuts or they are not in the league. Just how good was that core? the only guys that got a raise are the 2 we would have kept, however, komi did not want to be a habs and kovy needs an agent. We have replaced them all and I say much to the betterment of the team. We are going to be a damned exciting team to watch imho. Now lets go watch some hockey and worry about all this shite at the end of the year when we are in parade. :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg:

[Habsy]

It is short-sighted because our team has very little potential to improve in future seasons. Anyone who surprises will have to walk for the big contract the following season. We have far too many big contracts now and Price is due for one at the end of the season. We aren't screwed, but we're likely to be "just good" with this team for some time. If Price becomes a franchise goalie we'll float around the Cup contender level. Everything is invested in Price.

Sorry, it's not short sighted. Price get's Hamrlik's money. Hamrlik get's replaced by Subban. The only contract that is difficult to move, if needed, is Gomez. Cammalleri stays for the next 10 years, and scores 350 goals in the process. If Gionta doesn't work out, he can be traded to this long list of teams (sarcasm) that have money to spend when the cap falls off a cliff. Which, by the way, isn't going to happen. Bob did what couldn't be done, sign some free agents, get younger, and correct a poor drafting record. We drafted Duncan Milroy before Cammalleri was selected by the Kings. LOL.

[BCHabnut]

look at what happened to the guys that walked..... other than kovy and komi they all took salary cuts or they are not in the league. Just how good was that core? the only guys that got a raise are the 2 we would have kept, however, komi did not want to be a habs and kovy needs an agent. We have replaced them all and I say much to the betterment of the team. We are going to be a damned exciting team to watch imho. Now lets go watch some hockey and worry about all this shite at the end of the year when we are in parade. :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg: :ghg:

I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me or arguing? I agree that the team was bad last year, but icing a full team of rookies and hoping the cap dropped would be worse. I'm saying that the decisions Gainey made were somewhat radical, but sound from a business standpoint. Trying to keep lots of cap room for next year by only offering a bunch of 1 year contracts would have devasted the team as UFAs and RFAs would have even walked. All of this, just in case the cap drops.

[Wamsley01]

Well, Wamsley's right about one thing. Bob sank the equivalent dough into Cammy, Gionta and Gomez that rivals are sinking into the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury - and he did this in a way that ties us in for years. It is certainly possible to argue that this is 'short term' thinking IF we believe that Bob would have been able to sign TRUE superstars with that money had he been willing to wait out another season or two . If we believe that, then clearly Bob was motivated by a desire to be better this season and wasn't thinking ahead. I believe this is Wamsley's argument.

And it's a good argument. But it really only has force if we believe that

1. the cap is going to shrink substantially and

2. this will result in teams unloading franchise players which teams with cap space can then scoop up. Even if #1 happens it doesn't necessarily mean #2 will. (E.g., in shedding salary TB ditched Boyle and Richards, NOT Vinny).

In the absence of either condition #1 or #2, then what Bob has done is work effectively within the limitations of his own very mixed drafting record. As I said, and nobody has challenged it, the Gainey regime has singularly failed to draft and develop ANY elite player at ANY position except goal. This, IMHO, is our REAL problem and has been for some time. So now what Bob has done is sign three bona fide top-6 forwards. The Gainey/Timmins pattern of drafting 'useful' midrange players should then provide him with enough cheap filler to round out the roster effectively. And Price holds the fort. The keys on this model will be, as they have been with New Jersey, great coaching/team play, great goaltending, and all-around balanced production rooted in a handful of exceptionally strong individual players (but not franchise players) and above-average and cheap 'role' players (e.g., Plekanec, Lats, Laps, Kostitsyn).

That would be the anti-Wamsley analysis. Assuming no cap collapse and/or sudden shedding of franchise players, Bob's corrected for his own limited draft success and put a model in place that, provided Price pans out as expected, should make us New Jersey Devils North going forward. That wouldn't be 'short term' thinking, it would be a defensible team-building model.

I don't know if the cap is going to collapse or not and, if it does, whether we could snap up franchise players as a result. But Bob's tenure should probably be judged on how that plays out.

I have always fully supported the New Jersey Devil model, and with the hiring of Carbo thought this was the plan.

My biggest issue with Gainey has been his asset management. Not solely in regards to letting Streit walk, or his UFAs, but the fact that for 5 years the Canadiens minor league system has been highly touted and he has not identified the replaceable parts and capitalized on their inflated worth. The Pens have too many young defensemen, they trade Whitney to fill a hole. Gainey, he holds on to all of the assets, waits for the best one to emerge and lets the others walk.

Anybody can wait for players to develop before they assess. The elite GMs know that Michael Ryder is one dimensional in 2006 and

deal him when he has value. They do not wait until he is so horrid that nobody wants him. THis has happened TIME AND TIME again

with all of our prospects. Higgins could have landed Hossa when we had our Cup shot in 2008, but he was integral to the future of

the Canadiens. 12 months later he was gone. I don't care if people would rather have Gomez than Hossa, and I thought the price was

too steep then. I also thought Higgins was a cornerstone then.

Gainey has really lacked foresight. From dumping Ribeiro (which from the outside, I agreed with), to misreading Streit's value etc.

I was fine with his patience in not locking up young players and making them earn their cheques when he maintained cap flexibility.

But now we are essentially capped out and on the verge of being burnt again because he didn't want to take a chance on locking up Pleks to a 3-4 year deal at a reduced rate because of fear that last season was the real Plekanec. If he walks this summer, that will be Souray, Streit, Ryder, Plekanec and Komisarek with zero in return and ONE playoff victory. You cannot win letting that many assets walk. Only Ryder and Streit walked in years where the Habs had anything remotely resembling a Cup shot.

It has all been extremely frustrating and confusing for somebody who believed in his vision. Now I find myself just sitting, watching

and praying for the best. I have ZERO expectations for this team. THey could win the Cup or finish in 25th and neither would shock me.

AND. The Cap WILL go down. You can bet on that.

[Wamsley01]

Well, Wamsley's right about one thing. Bob sank the equivalent dough into Cammy, Gionta and Gomez that rivals are sinking into the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury - and he did this in a way that ties us in for years. It is certainly possible to argue that this is 'short term' thinking IF we believe that Bob would have been able to sign TRUE superstars with that money had he been willing to wait out another season or two . If we believe that, then clearly Bob was motivated by a desire to be better this season and wasn't thinking ahead. I believe this is Wamsley's argument.

And it's a good argument. But it really only has force if we believe that

1. the cap is going to shrink substantially and

2. this will result in teams unloading franchise players which teams with cap space can then scoop up. Even if #1 happens it doesn't necessarily mean #2 will. (E.g., in shedding salary TB ditched Boyle and Richards, NOT Vinny).

In the absence of either condition #1 or #2, then what Bob has done is work effectively within the limitations of his own very mixed drafting record. As I said, and nobody has challenged it, the Gainey regime has singularly failed to draft and develop ANY elite player at ANY position except goal. This, IMHO, is our REAL problem and has been for some time. So now what Bob has done is sign three bona fide top-6 forwards. The Gainey/Timmins pattern of drafting 'useful' midrange players should then provide him with enough cheap filler to round out the roster effectively. And Price holds the fort. The keys on this model will be, as they have been with New Jersey, great coaching/team play, great goaltending, and all-around balanced production rooted in a handful of exceptionally strong individual players (but not franchise players) and above-average and cheap 'role' players (e.g., Plekanec, Lats, Laps, Kostitsyn).

That would be the anti-Wamsley analysis. Assuming no cap collapse and/or sudden shedding of franchise players, Bob's corrected for his own limited draft success and put a model in place that, provided Price pans out as expected, should make us New Jersey Devils North going forward. That wouldn't be 'short term' thinking, it would be a defensible team-building model.

I don't know if the cap is going to collapse or not and, if it does, whether we could snap up franchise players as a result. But Bob's tenure should probably be judged on how that plays out.

I have always fully supported the New Jersey Devil model, and with the hiring of Carbo thought this was the plan. It still may be the plan,

and this may be a huge over reaction on my part.

My biggest issue with Gainey has been his asset management. Not solely in regards to letting players like Streit walk, or his other UFAs, but the fact that for 5 years the Canadiens minor league system has been highly touted and he has not identified the replaceable parts and capitalized on their inflated worth. The Pens have too many young defensemen, they trade Whitney to fill a hole. Gainey, he holds on to all of the assets, waits for the best one to emerge and lets the others walk. Is he going to do it again with Subban and Weber? Price and Halak? It only works if both emerge, if one does not, you pissed away an over inflated asset.

Anybody can wait for players to develop before they assess. The elite GMs know that Michael Ryder is one dimensional in 2006 and

deal him when he has value. They do not wait until he is so horrid that nobody wants him. THis has happened TIME AND TIME again

with all of our prospects. Higgins could have landed Hossa when we had our Cup shot in 2008, but he was integral to the future of

the Canadiens. Twelve months later he is gone. I don't care if people would rather have Gomez than Hossa, and I thought the price was

too steep then, but I also thought Higgins was a cornerstone then.

Gainey has really lacked foresight. From dumping Ribeiro (which from the outside, I agreed with), to misreading Streit's value etc.

I was fine with his patience in not locking up young players and making them earn their cheques when he maintained cap flexibility.

The penalty was losing players for nothing, but he avoided being locked into bad contracts in a time where most teams really misread the new landscape.

I really felt that it would provide opportunities as teams felt the squeeze (ie. Kessel for two 1st rounders, the Hawks and their potential dumping of players).

When you you are sold that this teams future lies in growth from within and then your GM does not have the confidence to invest in ANY of his own prospects

long term, it shakes your confidence in what his vision is.

Now the Habs are essentially capped out and on the verge of being burnt again because he didn't want to take a chance on locking up Pleks to a 3-4 year deal at a reduced rate because of fear that last season was the real Plekanec. If he walks this summer, that will be Souray, Streit, Ryder, Plekanec and Komisarek with zero in return and ONE playoff victory. You cannot win letting that many assets walk. Only Ryder and Streit walked in years where the Habs had anything remotely resembling a Cup shot. Souray and Komisarek were retained to make the playoffs. Why? Could Gainey really not see Komisarek walking this summer? What could they have received in return at the deadline for him?

It has all been extremely frustrating and confusing for somebody who believed in his vision. Now I find myself just sitting, watching

and praying for the best. I have ZERO expectations for this team. They could win the Cup or finish in 30th and neither would shock me.

AND. The Cap WILL go down. You can bet on that.

This is mostly frustration from watching them hang Price out to dry like that last night and the continued failure of our prospects to match their hype.

Anybody expecting more than .500 before the return of Markov is probably dreaming considering the Pens plight without Gonchar and the Ducks regression without Niedermayer two seasons ago. One team was the defending Cup champ, the other ended up winning the Cup and both floundered around .500 until they returned.

Until their defense steps up and earns their D, I will be referring to them as the

Montreal Canaiens.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Wamsley01

[Habsy]

Wamsley, I'll take that bet!!! I believe if it does go down, it means a slight adjustment. We lose a Metropolit kind of player.

[Wamsley01]

Wamsley, I'll take that bet!!! I believe if it does go down, it means a slight adjustment. We lose a Metropolit kind of player.

I am not a cap guru by any means, but you have to believe that the influx of revenue the Habs created in 2009 with their

MLSE style promotion of the 100th Anniversary and the return to glory of the Blackhawks and Bruins will be hard to replicate in 2010.

Add in the Coyotes situation as well as the sad parking lot promotional drives in Tampa, Florida and Atlanta, I don't see how it

only slightly dips. This may not be a heavy hitting recession in Canada, but plenty of cities in the US have been decimated

and spending $$ on the NHL is not a necessity.

Bettman is going to hold back those negative numbers as long as possible because in his Shangri-La, a recession hasn't even occurred.

[BTH]

Sorry, it's not short sighted. Price get's Hamrlik's money. Hamrlik get's replaced by Subban. The only contract that is difficult to move, if needed, is Gomez. Cammalleri stays for the next 10 years, and scores 350 goals in the process. If Gionta doesn't work out, he can be traded to this long list of teams (sarcasm) that have money to spend when the cap falls off a cliff. Which, by the way, isn't going to happen. Bob did what couldn't be done, sign some free agents, get younger, and correct a poor drafting record. We drafted Duncan Milroy before Cammalleri was selected by the Kings. LOL.

Going from Hamrlik to Subban is a huge downgrade - and it's not like we already have a contending team. We're in the 6-8th in the East range NOW, with little potential to upgrade anywhere, but sure to be dumping contracts in the future once our younger players need raises, and the cap goes down. First it's Higgins to Pacioretty, then Metropolit to Chipchura, then Hamrlik to Subban. Then what? We're left with a 7th-10th team. Trade Gomez, Cammalleri or Gionta? We'll need to find a new, cheaper first liner. Those only come from the draft. Trade Markov? Never. Price? Never.

The idea of bringing in a younger core was a good one - just that our core players are earning too much. Gomez is a solid player but he IS a cap killer. We need another top 6 winger (quite badly) but we can't afford one. Now we're using players that should be on the farm like Pacioretty because he's the cheapest option.

If Price becomes a franchise player we'll be what the Canucks are now. If he doesn't, we'll be what we've been for the past dozen seasons.

[alexstream]

Thanks for the heads up :bow:

I have Illico and I can't seem to find the channel I checked out channel 420 and it's KOMO, not centerIce??

browse in the 400's im never at home, I cannot confirm.

or check on videotron's website.

I heard it on CKAC and checked when home and found it in the 400s, that's for sure... but can't remember. was it 410s, 420s, 430s? :/

[Habsy]

Going from Hamrlik to Subban is a huge downgrade - and it's not like we already have a contending team. We're in the 6-8th in the East range NOW, with little potential to upgrade anywhere, but sure to be dumping contracts in the future once our younger players need raises, and the cap goes down. First it's Higgins to Pacioretty, then Metropolit to Chipchura, then Hamrlik to Subban. Then what? We're left with a 7th-10th team. Trade Gomez, Cammalleri or Gionta? We'll need to find a new, cheaper first liner. Those only come from the draft. Trade Markov? Never. Price? Never.

The idea of bringing in a younger core was a good one - just that our core players are earning too much. Gomez is a solid player but he IS a cap killer. We need another top 6 winger (quite badly) but we can't afford one. Now we're using players that should be on the farm like Pacioretty because he's the cheapest option.

If Price becomes a franchise player we'll be what the Canucks are now. If he doesn't, we'll be what we've been for the past dozen seasons.

So we keep Hamrlik at 5 million until he's 45 years old? In the same paragraph you have us trading all our best players? For what? All our spectacular young guns that recquire big contracts? You are well aware that we can't get free agents here, unless we overpay. You're also well aware that we haven't drafted very well, essential in a cap world. All the wealthy teams are in trouble, if the cap falls like some of you are predicting. Gomez makes too much, that's about the only problem we have.

[Wamsley01]

If Price becomes a franchise player we'll be what the Canucks are now. If he doesn't, we'll be what we've been for the past dozen seasons.

BINGO!