Permanent Rumour Thread

[bbp]

The real question is : Trailing by 1 with 20 seconds to go in the 3rd, who do you want to see taking that shot ? Subban or the 2 Swiss ?

Are we playing Boston

[ForumGhost]

Subban shooting % was 3.4%, the only lower on team was Gorges and Gomez, he cant hit the broad side of a barn and the showboating wind-up is useless. i am sure Pacioretty and Cole just dread trying to screen with him shooting over the net, or 5 feet wide.

Funny how any criticism of Subban at all, gets people all excited.

and statistically i think, the 2 Swiss were both way ahead on actually getting pucks to the net with shots.

If we are looking at shooting %, should we look at more relevant stats, such as point production?

[DON]

If we are looking at shooting %, should we look at more relevant stats, such as point production?

OK; Subban 5 goals on PP in 82 games, Weber 4 goals in 60 games, with a tad fewer PP minutes/game also. So really no comparison who is more efficient on the PP point.

[DON]

The real question is : Trailing by 1 with 20 seconds to go in the 3rd, who do you want to see taking that shot ? Subban or the 2 Swiss ?

No question, either of the 2 swiss d-men, until Subban can learn how to hit the net and realize the huge telegraphed slap shot is unnecessary and inaccurate. And also that a well placed wrist shot is just as effective (maybe more so?).

[Commandant]

Free agency is not the only option and is rarely the best option to upgrade the defence.

Ok, so after you dump Kaberle, who is giving you a legit top 4 defenceman and what are you trading to get him?

[JMMR]

No question, either of the 2 swiss d-men, until Subban can learn how to hit the net and realize the huge telegraphed slap shot is unnecessary and inaccurate. And also that a well placed wrist shot is just as effective (maybe more so?).

We will have to agree to disagree, I'll say PK scores 14-17 this year.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Weber will be 24 before the season starts. Lets stop this myth that he's so young with so much potential.

I don't know why I thought he was 21. It makes no sense.

until Subban can learn how to hit the net

He hit the twine 14 times in his rookie season. He only scored 42 goals in junior hockey. He has a crazy nice shot but Subban was elite offensively in the OHL due to 148 assists in 234 games, not his shot. I think he'll regularly have a career of scoring around 12-15 every season but might have a Souray-esque season where he scores 20+ here or there.

We're also obviously going to get a top four defenceman by trading our scraps, expensive contracts and adding Danny Kristo because he's never had the pretty shine other prospects in our system have so we might as well add him to every trade proposal.

[JoeLassister]

We're also obviously going to get a top four defenceman by trading our scraps, expensive contracts and adding Danny Kristo because he's never had the pretty shine other prospects in our system have so we might as well add him to every trade proposal.

That is exactly what we missed : A Halak + Ryder + a 2nd pick bundle !!!!

[Machine of Loving Grace]

That is exactly what we missed : A Halak + Ryder + a 2nd pick bundle !!!!

Today it seems to be Bourque, Weber and Kristo.

[DON]

We will have to agree to disagree, I'll say PK scores 14-17 this year.

I agree PK will likely be in the teens in goals, especially if Markov stays healthy.

Markov makes everyone better.

I think Subban will be an All Star soon and love his game and he is making progress, especially in own end.

But 1/2 his shots from the point hit his own players in front of net, i bet Cole and Pacioretty took more shots in the back and mid section from PK than all the rest of d-men combined.

He has a good 1-timer, but still wild and with his big wind-up slapshot, even he couldnt tell you where it is going.

If he can crank it back a notch or learn to keep a bit lower, i think would be more effective.

But like you say, diff of opinion, agree to disagree, and just a minor criticism of a super player.

[hab29RETIRED]

Ok, so after you dump Kaberle, who is giving you a legit top 4 defenceman and what are you trading to get him?

There are a lot of guys we could kick the tires on. Obviously, you you give up will depend on the player you are getting back.

Some guys i'd target are Yandle (right age to give up assets for), Klesla on Phoenix, Polak on the Blues, Hainsey and Bogosian from Winnepeg, Blum for Nashville.

I've always believed that a team should be built from the net out - we have our goalie. We have a lot of nice prospects and I'd be looking either for someone to be a stop gap when some our defensive, as well as offensive prospects start hitting their stride (i.e. Polak, Hainsey), or guys that will grow with the team and hopefully be veteran leaders for the guys stepping up (i.e. Yandle, Bogasian).

On D the guys that I wouldn't move are Subban, Markov, Emelin and Gorges. We have a very good promising crop of prospects on defence that I think should make the tabs within 2 to 3 years. But I would prefer to either pick up a guy at Yandle's age that will provide a veteran experience if Markov is done in 2 years), but still will be marketable if we want to move him.

Up front the guys that would be off the are non starters are MaxPac and Cole and i'd be VERY hesitant to move Pleks, Eller or DD. Other then that, from our core veterans, everyone is fair game. I'd see if a team like Phoenix who may lose Doan wants a blood and guts guy like Gionta as part of a package for Yandle.

The guys i'd like to move for a true top 4 dan are Bourque, Weber, Diaz from our main roster and I think we can give up prospects like a Pulushaj, Leblanc (only in a package for someone like Yandle), Kristo (I'm really worried with the CBA rules he may pull a Schultz).

The other guy I'd be willing to move and there would probably be interest for is Moen. I think we have too many 3rd/4th line type guys like Prust, Armstrong, White. Do we really need 4 checkers??? I know how some will say we just signed him and the bad message it would send, but teams like Philly and the NYR have signed and traded players for years and it has never been an issue for them.

[hab29RETIRED]

That is exactly what we missed : A Halak + Ryder + a 2nd pick bundle !!!!

Actually, I never understood why we didn't move Ryder when he was being benched anyways. Ryder was another guy, who we devalued by having him sit and play with grunts where he had zero chances of success. Then as the year went on, it was obvious, Carbo wasnt going to play him, yet Gainey didn't move him despite him heading to free agency. It made zero sense. The guy is a 25-35 goal scorer. Can't back check worth shit and rarely uses his size, but as long as you know what you are getting and give him his ice time, he does score.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

There are a lot of guys we could kick the tires on. Obviously, you you give up will depend on the player you are getting back.

Some guys i'd target are Yandle (right age to give up assets for), Klesla on Phoenix, Polak on the Blues, Hainsey and Bogosian from Winnepeg, Blum for Nashville.

I've always believed that a team should be built from the net out - we have our goalie. We have a lot of nice prospects and I'd be looking either for someone to be a stop gap when some our defensive, as well as offensive prospects start hitting their stride (i.e. Polak, Hainsey), or guys that will grow with the team and hopefully be veteran leaders for the guys stepping up (i.e. Yandle, Bogasian).

On D the guys that I wouldn't move are Subban, Markov, Emelin and Gorges. We have a very good promising crop of prospects on defence that I think should make the tabs within 2 to 3 years. But I would prefer to either pick up a guy at Yandle's age that will provide a veteran experience if Markov is done in 2 years), but still will be marketable if we want to move him.

Up front the guys that would be off the are non starters are MaxPac and Cole and i'd be VERY hesitant to move Pleks, Eller or DD. Other then that, from our core veterans, everyone is fair game. I'd see if a team like Phoenix who may lose Doan wants a blood and guts guy like Gionta as part of a package for Yandle.

The guys i'd like to move for a true top 4 dan are Bourque, Weber, Diaz from our main roster and I think we can give up prospects like a Pulushaj, Leblanc (only in a package for someone like Yandle), Kristo (I'm really worried with the CBA rules he may pull a Schultz).

So we're going to trade the guys you don't want to get a top four D you do want. Fantastic! So which GM do we drug first?

[hab29RETIRED]

I agree PK will likely be in the teens in goals, especially if Markov stays healthy.

Markov makes everyone better.

I think Subban will be an All Star soon and love his game and he is making progress, especially in own end.

But 1/2 his shots from the point hit his own players in front of net, i bet Cole and Pacioretty took more shots in the back and mid section from PK than all the rest of d-men combined.

He has a good 1-timer, but still wild and with his big wind-up slapshot, even he couldnt tell you where it is going.

If he can crank it back a notch or learn to keep a bit lower, i think would be more effective.

But like you say, diff of opinion, agree to disagree, and just a minor criticism of a super player.

Lets not forget that Subban is still a kid and his offensive game has been reigned in by the coaching staff. I think giving him more rope like Ottawa gave Karlson and some more experience, he SHOULD start figuring out the need to improve his shooting accuracy and getting rid of that telegraphed shot. The kid has a good wrister to go along with the his snapshot, he just needs to make some adjustments. Another reason why I was REALLY hoping for Robinson - I know I've beaten the big bird man crush to death for the past 1 1/2 years, but the development of Subban is a major reason why.

[hab29RETIRED]

So we're going to trade the guys you don't want to get a top four D you do want. Fantastic! So which GM do we drug first?

How much drugs did Sather offer Gainey when he fleeced McDonough, Higgins and Valetenko for gomer pyle??? A budget conscious team like Phoenix is going may need to replace Doan. Gionta brings the leadership, Bourque the goals potential. there are other teams like Winnipeg that are going to need to add veteran leadership (i.e. Gionta type), as well as scoring (bourque) as well. A right package of D prospect like Weber and mix of forwards, could net Bogosian.

[Commandant]

So we're going to trade the guys you don't want to get a top four D you do want. Fantastic! So which GM do we drug first?

You can get anyone with our scrubs, even Malkin... he was available in Pittsburgh once upon a time, we know this!

Stupid Gainey.

[hab29RETIRED]

You can get anyone with our scrubs, even Malkin... he was available in Pittsburgh once upon a time, we know this!

Stupid Gainey.

I do agree with this statement

[Commandant]

How much drugs did Sather offer Gainey when he fleeced McDonough, Higgins and Valetenko for gomer pyle??? A budget conscious team like Phoenix is going may need to replace Doan. Gionta brings the leadership, Bourque the goals potential. there are other teams like Winnipeg that are going to need to add veteran leadership (i.e. Gionta type), as well as scoring (bourque) as well. A right package of D prospect like Weber and mix of forwards, could net Bogosian.

Just because there was once a bad trade 3 years ago, doesn't mean Don Maloney is itching to repeat it.

This isn't NHL 12, trading a bunch of pieces doesn't get you a star defenceman.

Quantity doesn't equal quality.

Plus your whole premise was that we couldn't do these trades because Kaberle is eating our cap space... which doesn't make any sense now that you are proposing trading Gionta and Bourque for these players.... we'd shed more than enough cap in the trade itself that we don't even need to move Kaberle.

Of course you've left us without any second line players, but hey.... I'm sure some other GM is just itching to get fleeced too.

[hab29RETIRED]

Just because there was once a bad trade 3 years ago, doesn't mean Don Maloney is itching to repeat it.

This isn't NHL 12, trading a bunch of pieces doesn't get you a star defenceman.

Quantity doesn't equal quality.

Plus your whole premise was that we couldn't do these trades because Kaberle is eating our cap space... which doesn't make any sense now that you are proposing trading Gionta and Bourque for these players.... we'd shed more than enough cap in the trade itself that we don't even need to move Kaberle.

Of course you've left us without any second line players, but hey.... I'm sure some other GM is just itching to get fleeced too.

I think Kaberle is a waste of cap space for what he brings, but moving Kaberle is not enough unless we dump Gomez and from everything the team is saying, looks like Gomez is going to get another shot, unless there is an amnesty clause in the new CBA. Whoever we bring in is going to be getting similar salary to Kaberle, so I think we do need to move more $'s.

We don't know what Subban is going to cost yet and next year, MaxPac is in for a HUGE raise if he produces similar numbers. I like the fact that we don't have to worry about Eller for the two years that Gomez and Kaberle are eating up at our cap space, but MaxPac is going to be getting his money. Next year (13/14), if Galy, Belieau and Tinordi to make the big club, they will also be eligible for the rookie max and I have no idea what their bonus targets are, but that could significantly bump up their cap hits. If one of them makes it this year, it will also eat up at cap space.

I want to be competitive enough to make the playoffs this year, without sacrificing our young assets, or the development of our young assets. IMO, we need to upgrade at least one top 6 forward and add a true top 4 dman. As much as I like Gionta, I'd rather try moving him now, before he is a year older and when we may potentially have DD, Eller and Gallagher in the top 6.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

How much drugs did Sather offer Gainey when he fleeced McDonough, Higgins and Valetenko for gomer pyle??? A budget conscious team like Phoenix is going may need to replace Doan. Gionta brings the leadership, Bourque the goals potential. there are other teams like Winnipeg that are going to need to add veteran leadership (i.e. Gionta type), as well as scoring (bourque) as well. A right package of D prospect like Weber and mix of forwards, could net Bogosian.

Sather didn't offer him drugs. Gainey was going through his daughter dying and had Gauthier assemble the deal for him. It's much like how in Toronto that day to day operations are mostly performed by Dave Nonis but it is Brian Burke who gets the attention for it. It was Gauthier who didn't like McDonaugh and told scouts he didn't see him as a future NHLer. All Gainey did was pull the trigger. I think Gainey should have stepped down after what happened to Laura but I cannot imagine what was going through his head. He likely tried to distract himself with work and ownership wasn't willing to push him out of the door, even if it was for the best for Bob.

Anyway, again. Unless we rob a GM, we're not trading our overpriced and underperforming players for a top four defenceman.

Like I said earlier, this fantasy of trading Bourque, Kristo and Weber for something valuable to the team is ridiculous. And you want to trade Gionta? A player when healthy is a 20-30 goal scorer? Great, we trade him for a top four D man at the same age and in return now have to place Leblanc and Bourque on our top six. That fixes... what? At least Van Riem/Schenn was the teams trading out of strength for their weaknesses.

[hab29RETIRED]

Sather didn't offer him drugs. Gainey was going through his daughter dying and had Gauthier assemble the deal for him. It's much like how in Toronto that day to day operations are mostly performed by Dave Nonis but it is Brian Burke who gets the attention for it. It was Gauthier who didn't like McDonaugh and told scouts he didn't see him as a future NHLer. All Gainey did was pull the trigger. I think Gainey should have stepped down after what happened to Laura but I cannot imagine what was going through his head. He likely tried to distract himself with work and ownership wasn't willing to push him out of the door, even if it was for the best for Bob.

Anyway, again. Unless we rob a GM, we're not trading our overpriced and underperforming players for a top four defenceman.

Like I said earlier, this fantasy of trading Bourque, Kristo and Weber for something valuable to the team is ridiculous. And you want to trade Gionta? A player when healthy is a 20-30 goal scorer? Great, we trade him for a top four D man at the same age and in return now have to place Leblanc and Bourque on our top six. That fixes... what? At least Van Riem/Schenn was the teams trading out of strength for their weaknesses.

There are two reasons I'm willing to move Gionta. First of all is despite how hard and tough he plays, we CAN'T have Gionta, DD and Gallagher (I think he has a serious shot at getting a long look this year, if he has a camp like last year), in the top or even top 9. Secondly, who is Gionta going to play with??? Again, I don't want Gionta on the same line as DD and he had ZERO chemistry with Pleks. So that means that either Pleks or Eller get saddled with scrubs - unless we try and move Eller to centre.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

One thing I will say is that this board sure gets plenty livelier the minute Habs29 goes on a posting frenzy! :lol: Good to have you around, my friend.

[Commandant]

I think Kaberle is a waste of cap space for what he brings, but moving Kaberle is not enough unless we dump Gomez and from everything the team is saying, looks like Gomez is going to get another shot, unless there is an amnesty clause in the new CBA. Whoever we bring in is going to be getting similar salary to Kaberle, so I think we do need to move more $'s.

We don't know what Subban is going to cost yet and next year, MaxPac is in for a HUGE raise if he produces similar numbers. I like the fact that we don't have to worry about Eller for the two years that Gomez and Kaberle are eating up at our cap space, but MaxPac is going to be getting his money. Next year (13/14), if Galy, Belieau and Tinordi to make the big club, they will also be eligible for the rookie max and I have no idea what their bonus targets are, but that could significantly bump up their cap hits. If one of them makes it this year, it will also eat up at cap space.

I want to be competitive enough to make the playoffs this year, without sacrificing our young assets, or the development of our young assets. IMO, we need to upgrade at least one top 6 forward and add a true top 4 dman. As much as I like Gionta, I'd rather try moving him now, before he is a year older and when we may potentially have DD, Eller and Gallagher in the top 6.

In two years, if not sooner.... Gomez, Kaberle, GIonta, Markov, all have their current contracts off our books. Our cap situation 2 years from now when Eller needs a new contract isn't something we should even worry about.

[hab29RETIRED]

In two years, if not sooner.... Gomez, Kaberle, GIonta, Markov, all have their current contracts off our books. Our cap situation 2 years from now when Eller needs a new contract isn't something we should even worry about.

That's actually what I stated above - that's what I like about his two year deal. I think if MaxPac puts up a big year, we could see him looking for $5-$6M. We also haven't signed Subban yet. If I'm the GM, I try and lock him up now at $5M (giving him more then market now) and offer huge front loaded bonuses like the sabres gave Myers. If I'm Subban i'd be looking for a 1 year deal and have confidence in my self that I'm going to have a big year. If he does sign a one year deal, we've got potentially two big deals to renegotiate next year.

I also see at least one of Galy, Belieau, Gallahger and Tinordi making the team in 2013/14, which means they will be eligible for whatever rookie bonuses they signed on for (I've no idea what they're individual bonuses are, but I believe the max for rookies depending on their draft year is supposed to be in the $3.5M range).

But getting back to this year and the following year, given the moves some teams made, I just don't see us as a playoff team with the existing defence and Gomez - unless Gomez suddenly rediscovers his game (i did't drink that koolaid the last two years and am not about to start now).

The Canes just got better, the lightening got better, even the Lafs got better with vanremeisdyk. We got tougher, but still don't have a guy with any sort of face-off success. A healthy markov for the full year is an improvement, but even then, I don't like our #4, #5 (I love Emelin, but this is his sophomore year, so I wouldn't want to put all my faith on him providing a solid top 4).

Offensively we dropped Ak46 and Cammy and picked up Bourque and three bottom two bottom six guys. I hated the Bourque deal and have zero confidence that Bourque can be counted on in games that count (given what I saw from him in Calgary). So I think we are behind the eight ball at the forward position.

One thing I will say is that this board sure gets plenty livelier the minute Habs29 goes on a posting frenzy! :lol: Good to have you around, my friend.

That happens every now and then when the wife and kids go out on their own

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

But getting back to this year and the following year, given the moves some teams made, I just don't see us as a playoff team with the existing defence and Gomez - unless Gomez suddenly rediscovers his game (i did't drink that koolaid the last two years and am not about to start now).

The Canes just got better, the lightening got better, even the Lafs got better with vanremeisdyk. We got tougher, but still don't have a guy with any sort of face-off success. A healthy markov for the full year is an improvement, but even then, I don't like our #4, #5 (I love Emelin, but this is his sophomore year, so I wouldn't want to put all my faith on him providing a solid top 4).

Offensively we dropped Ak46 and Cammy and picked up Bourque and three bottom two bottom six guys. I hated the Bourque deal and have zero confidence that Bourque can be counted on in games that count (given what I saw from him in Calgary). So I think we are behind the eight ball at the forward position.

Well, I'm not a big one for worrying about what the other teams are doing - I hear the same song and dance every year about how we 'haven't done enough to keep up,' etc., but usually there's some clubs that fall back as well as move forward. Despite that, you're right; like I've been saying for a while, we are probably not a playoff team, because our top-6 is too weak and our defence corps too reliant on 'maybes' (maybe Emelin will keep improving, maybe Markov will come back into form and stay healthy, and holy crap let's hope PK misses zero time due to injury).

The best hope perhaps lies, not in Gomez suddenly becoming an NHL player again, but in the theory that a much stronger bottom-6 will lead to a strong top-6. Maybe a Pleks who doesn't have to grind it out on the PK will have more in the tank for offensive purposes, for instance. Maybe greater team toughness will give forwards besides Patches and Cole a little more confidence and room out there. Maybe a few extra goals from the bottom lines will lead to a few extra wins over a long season. Add in a healthy Gionta and perhaps - which nobody ever contemplates - continued improvement from Desharnais as well as Eller, along with a renewed and revitalized team dynamic as everyone grabs for a fresh start (e.g., even Bourque wakes up) we might squeak it out.

We might. But, again - that's a lot of maybes. Too many.

I can live with the defence corps as an experiment, but I strongly feel that Bergevin needs to add a forward with at least the potential to be in the top-6. Just imagine if one of our top-6 FW gets injured. Not a pretty thought.