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3 hours ago, illWill said:

 

So much to dissect from the original post but I don't have all day so I focused on one of my favorite topics. 

 

1. Weber's "stupid cap hit length salary" Poile is the one that matched the offer sheet. And Nashville is going to be decimated in cap recapture if Weber retires early.

 

2. Trades for Subban when they had a stacked defense already, but trades him because of the same stacked defense? How "stupid" is Subbans contract that he had to salary dump him and the only team that would take it without salary retention was NJ? Would you trade Shea Weber for Subban right now?

 

3. Bergevin "failed" to sign Duchene? You say that as if Mark Bergevin single handedly is the reason why Matt Duchene is in Nashville. Like Duchene is picking between GMs and was so wooed by David Poile the man that he made a decision for himself and his family to go with Poile. Tell us how MB could have sealed the deal. Change the income tax in Quebec? How about creating a warmer weather system? Buy some guitars for the entire city so they can learn country music? 

1.  Any GM in an expansion market, already having lost Suter would have matched.  What was important was the no trade protection.  And if you had a half a brain even you would have known he matched before the cap recapture penalty was put in place.  It’s bergevin who was dumb enough to trade for a player with a cap recapture penalty- because montreal is now knowingly on the hook for the cap recapture penalty - a portion of which Poile was smart to dump.  BOOM. To your first stupid point.


2. Nashville had 4 guys that could be on the first pair on any team - including Montreal, had Josi to resign - which is now done and other young promising dmen.  Poile also recognized that he needed a top centre for a chance a t the cup because turris wasn’t getting the job done and was untraceable (he has been better this year and is actually contributing, but now can be moved if needed. Poile made a move from a position of strength to fill a need to be a true contender.  MB on the other hand made the Drouin deal by creating a Grand Canyon wiz while on our left D.  It was again MB who signed Subban to that stupid contract by insisting on a bridge deal, only to have him win the norris.  He was also a top three for the Norris twice after signing the contract - how many times was Weber a top 3 contender??   For  what NJ paid for Subban, our unused cap space and Swiss cheese ad, I would have picked him up in a heartbeat. And yes I’d rather have the 3 or 4 years on Subban’s contract than the 7 or 8 on Weber’s.

 

3. Why are other teams constantly able to trade for a top centre, or sign one (Poile managed to do both multiple times).  while Man constantly whines how hard it is. Why didn’t duschane want to come  to Montreal - one reason was a MUCH better guarantee of being in the playoffs and a chance at the cup.

 

MB even. ####ed up the offer sheet by not offering more money to Aho which would have given the Canes more draft picks and made them think harder about taking the picks. Every friggin analyst said IMMEDIATELY that there was no way that the canes wouldn’t match such a low offer sheet with so few picks going back and that MB did the canes work by negotiating Aho’s contract for them. 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

1.  Any GM in an expansion market, already having lost Suter would have matched.  What was important was the no trade protection.  And if you had a half a brain even you would have known he matched before the cap recapture penalty was put in place.  It’s bergevin who was dumb enough to trade for a player with a cap recapture penalty- because montreal is now knowingly on the hook for the cap recapture penalty - a portion of which Poile was smart to dump.  BOOM. To your first stupid point.

 

A couple of points to this.  Poile shouldn't get credit for there not being any no-trade protection in Weber's contract.  By rule, offer sheets cannot contain any form of no-trade protection.  Even if they could, the credit would have to go to Philly's GM who actually negotiated the contract.

 

Second, the potential cap recapture penalty varies by season and in Montreal's situation, they're actually off the hook for it entirely as long as Weber doesn't retire between now and the end of the year (which is a pretty safe bet).  Nashville didn't dump any of their obligation in the trade; if anything, they increased their potential obligation substantially by trading him before the cheap years of his deal kicked in.  Here's a look at their potential obligations if Weber decides to retire early:

 

Screen_Shot_2016-06-29_at_5.20.33_PM.0.p

Once this season ends, the recapture exposure is solely Nashville's concern, not Montreal's.

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The idea is that poile and wilson kept their jobs cause at least they have made the cup final and bergevin hasnt.

 

Wilson made the final in his 12th season (13 years due to 04-05) after taking over as Sharks GM in 2003.

 

Poile made the final in his 18th season (20 years after being hired, 1 year pre expansion draft and 1 year lockout).

 

So yeah they both would have been fired by your 7 years and no cup final logic for bergevin.

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If Weber is ready to retire in, say, four or five years ... I wonder what kind of players Nashville would be willing to give to us, to avoid the $8M or $12M recapture penalty? And then bury his cap hit in LTIR ... that one-year $24M penalty is a killer.

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

The idea is that poile and wilson kept their jobs cause at least they have made the cup final and bergevin hasnt.

 

Wilson made the final in his 12th season (13 years due to 04-05) after taking over as Sharks GM in 2003.

 

Poile made the final in his 18th season (20 years after being hired, 1 year pre expansion draft and 1 year lockout).

 

So yeah they both would have been fired by your 7 years and no cup final logic for bergevin.

Excellent points on GM's time before cup.

 

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I get the sense that this discussion is priming people to argue that if MB takes 20 years before building a contender, that's OK.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Beyond that: the defence of MB is currently based on our prospect pool and the belief that in 3-4 years it will elevate the team to the top 1/4 of the league, an elite team and reliable contender. I think Habs29 is right to point out that in this time frame Weber, Petry, and possibly Price will likely be close to being done, so the structural problem remains.

 

But even discounting that problem, my personal take on it is that I have heard this song and dance about everything being hunky-dory in 3-4 years too many times to uncritically believe it this time. If it works out, then great, MB will have delivered the goods. Until it does work out, however, MB remains a GM who has accomplished dick-all in my book.

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8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

1.  Any GM in an expansion market, already having lost Suter would have matched.  What was important was the no trade protection.  And if you had a half a brain even you would have known he matched before the cap recapture penalty was put in place.  It’s bergevin who was dumb enough to trade for a player with a cap recapture penalty- because montreal is now knowingly on the hook for the cap recapture penalty - a portion of which Poile was smart to dump.  BOOM. To your first stupid point.


2. Nashville had 4 guys that could be on the first pair on any team - including Montreal, had Josi to resign - which is now done and other young promising dmen.  Poile also recognized that he needed a top centre for a chance a t the cup because turris wasn’t getting the job done and was untraceable (he has been better this year and is actually contributing, but now can be moved if needed. Poile made a move from a position of strength to fill a need to be a true contender.  MB on the other hand made the Drouin deal by creating a Grand Canyon wiz while on our left D.  It was again MB who signed Subban to that stupid contract by insisting on a bridge deal, only to have him win the norris.  He was also a top three for the Norris twice after signing the contract - how many times was Weber a top 3 contender??   For  what NJ paid for Subban, our unused cap space and Swiss cheese ad, I would have picked him up in a heartbeat. And yes I’d rather have the 3 or 4 years on Subban’s contract than the 7 or 8 on Weber’s.

 

3. Why are other teams constantly able to trade for a top centre, or sign one (Poile managed to do both multiple times).  while Man constantly whines how hard it is. Why didn’t duschane want to come  to Montreal - one reason was a MUCH better guarantee of being in the playoffs and a chance at the cup.

 

MB even. ####ed up the offer sheet by not offering more money to Aho which would have given the Canes more draft picks and made them think harder about taking the picks. Every friggin analyst said IMMEDIATELY that there was no way that the canes wouldn’t match such a low offer sheet with so few picks going back and that MB did the canes work by negotiating Aho’s contract for them. 

 

7 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

A couple of points to this.  Poile shouldn't get credit for there not being any no-trade protection in Weber's contract.  By rule, offer sheets cannot contain any form of no-trade protection.  Even if they could, the credit would have to go to Philly's GM who actually negotiated the contract.

 

Second, the potential cap recapture penalty varies by season and in Montreal's situation, they're actually off the hook for it entirely as long as Weber doesn't retire between now and the end of the year (which is a pretty safe bet).  Nashville didn't dump any of their obligation in the trade; if anything, they increased their potential obligation substantially by trading him before the cheap years of his deal kicked in.  Here's a look at their potential obligations if Weber decides to retire early:

 

Screen_Shot_2016-06-29_at_5.20.33_PM.0.p

Once this season ends, the recapture exposure is solely Nashville's concern, not Montreal's.

1. Boom?

 

2. So your argument is that Turris isn't getting the job done, the same Turris that Poile was able to convince to an overpayment in free agency? And hey everybody, Habs29 would trade Weber for Subban right now. I'd love to throw a poll up on that

 

3. See my point above about how he was able to sign Turris to a deal that nobody would touch now. Sort of like how he had to dump Subban to the only team that would take him

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1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

1. Boom?

 

2. So your argument is that Turris isn't getting the job done, the same Turris that Poile was able to convince to an overpayment in free agency? And hey everybody, Habs29 would trade Weber for Subban right now. I'd love to throw a poll up on that

 

3. See my point above about how he was able to sign Turris to a deal that nobody would touch now. Sort of like how he had to dump Subban to the only team that would take him

The boom was for the idiotic comment that Poile matched the offer.knowing there would be a recapture.

 

turris has been playing better this and even Friedman said that he thinks turris will be moved if he is producing.

 

I think we should trade Weber because he is going to be on the decline if and when. Our kids are ready and we actually ever have a potential contender.  I’d try moving him to a team like Edmonton, but yes given the contracts, I’d rather have Subban. and as far as a poll who cares, most were happy with the Weber trade and the preds went to the finals and Subban was a Norris contender. Like is said earlier id happily take 4 years of Subban than keep Weber past 40. 

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The boom was for the idiotic comment that Poile matched the offer.knowing there would be a recapture.

 

turris has been playing better this and even Friedman said that he thinks turris will be moved if he is producing.

 

I think we should trade Weber because he is going to be on the decline if and when. Our kids are ready and we actually ever have a potential contender.  I’d try moving him to a team like Edmonton, but yes given the contracts, I’d rather have Subban. and as far as a poll who cares, most were happy with the Weber trade and the preds went to the finals and Subban was a Norris contender. Like is said earlier id happily take 4 years of Subban than keep Weber past 40

Why past 40? He's only signed till 40! 

If we are going to look through the hindsight lens, over the last 3 seasons and now 17 games into this season. You would have to think Weber has the advantage statistically (even if ever so slightly) and one would think the trend if not for injury in year 2  would of been Weber being better over the whole span (traditional stats that is). Since Subban's back issues, Weber has really started to seperate from Subban and this season even though the sample size is only 17 games and there is still tonnes of hockey to be played, Subban has been brutal! 

 

2019/20 Weber >  Subban (early results)

2018/2019 Weber > Subban

2017/2018 Weber* < Subban   *Weber injury

2016/17 Weber= Subban

 

Weber is older but stronger and much less agile (not neccesarily slower)

Subban younger and fleet of foot but has a bad back and is a pain in the a$$ ( think rumours of being moved after 2nd season and then actually moved for "cap reasons" after year 3)

 

Pick your Poison... I'll go with Chara lite

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1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

 

Why past 40? He's only signed till 40!

Sounds worse.

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Kovulchuk has apparently been told by LA that he can practice with the team but he won't see any games for awhile, and they are reportedly trying to trade him. He has a cap hit of $6 250 000 for this season and next, a signing bonus due to him on Dec 15th (which is either fully or part of $5.3 million), and it's a 35+ contract with a full cap hit buyout. 

 

If Alzner can be part of a deal for Kovulchuk, I don't hate it...

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Byron + Alzner for Kovalchuk?

Maybe we have to retain som salary to make it worth it for the kings.

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12 hours ago, Trizzak said:

Kovulchuk has apparently been told by LA that he can practice with the team but he won't see any games for awhile, and they are reportedly trying to trade him. He has a cap hit of $6 250 000 for this season and next, a signing bonus due to him on Dec 15th (which is either fully or part of $5.3 million), and it's a 35+ contract with a full cap hit buyout. 

 

If Alzner can be part of a deal for Kovulchuk, I don't hate it...

 

So if we assumed a Kovalchuk-for-Alzner swap, LA would shed about $2M of cap. We would effectively pay about $2M for Kovalchuk, who might be a 30-40 point scorer at this point in his career. That's a bit less than we pay, say, Armia so it seems reasonable from a ROI point of view. But where would we fit him in the lineup? As a replacement for Byron? Something else?

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I don't want Kovalchuk. 

 

The strength of the Habs team is skating through all four lines.  Kovalchuk will just slow the team down and he's not the player he once was.  There is a reason its not working in LA, and I don't want his 35+ contract. 

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He's so slow these days, but this team's needs a left handed shooter on the PP. He can still bring the heat with his one timer  

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The team needs a LD. Not a washed-up Kovalchuk who can't even make it on a horrible Kings squad which desperately needs him to succeed. Non merci.

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

I don't want Kovalchuk. 

 

The strength of the Habs team is skating through all four lines.  Kovalchuk will just slow the team down and he's not the player he once was.  There is a reason its not working in LA, and I don't want his 35+ contract. 

 

47 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The team needs a LD. Not a washed-up Kovalchuk who can't even make it on a horrible Kings squad which desperately needs him to succeed. Non merci.

What if getting Kovalchuk was the price to pay to land, let's say, Alec Martinez ? 

Not that he's quite the bonified top pair LD that I'd wish for...

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1 hour ago, Habber31 said:

He's so slow these days, but this team's needs a left handed shooter on the PP. He can still bring the heat with his one timer  

Kovalchuk shoots right handed.

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Kovalchuk shoots right handed.

I worded that stupidly. I meant left side shooter(forward), on the power play, but I guess a lefty would make more sense; being that Weber loads up on the left side, during the power play. 

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Seemed like a bad signing at the time and is playing out as many expected, no thanks to adding him.

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4 hours ago, Habber31 said:

I worded that stupidly. I meant left side shooter(forward), on the power play, but I guess a lefty would make more sense; being that Weber loads up on the left side, during the power play. 

 

The pp is top 10 in the nhl right now.  They seem to have figured it out even without that shot.  I dont want a pp specialist who would sit in the same spot weber already occupies and doesnt help us 5v5.  Save the powder for ld

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15 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

The pp is top 10 in the nhl right now.  They seem to have figured it out even without that shot.  I dont want a pp specialist who would sit in the same spot weber already occupies and doesnt help us 5v5.  Save the powder for ld

Second PP.

 

He's not coming here anyways. LD needs to be priority 

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On a potential Hall deal.

 

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The current slump certainly magnifies the likelihood of MB swinging a deal for Hall. Doing so also fits the pattern he displayed with Petry: get the player here, show them that Montreal is a good place to be, then sign.

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32 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The current slump certainly magnifies the likelihood of MB swinging a deal for Hall. Doing so also fits the pattern he displayed with Petry: get the player here, show them that Montreal is a good place to be, then sign.

 

I wouldn't give up a significant package for Hall (would most certainly include top prospects and picks) and then take the chance of losing him for nothing in the summer.  I am a fan of Hall's talent but not convinced of his character.  I expect he will go to the highest bidder in the summer, it won't be Jersey so I expect them to trade him somewhere. 

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