Habs @ Leafers | Game Thread

[bar]

I wish I knew more french so I could tell what the french guys were always laughing at...it's like everyone knows something funny except me!

[JoeLassister]

I wish I knew more french so I could tell what the french guys were always laughing at...it's like everyone knows something funny except me!

Believe me, 95% of the time, they laugh at something not funny at all.

[Habsy]

Believe me, 95% of the time, they laugh at something not funny at all.

You just made me laugh with that!!! It's true!

[bar]

Believe me, 95% of the time, they laugh at something not funny at all.

But it's that 5% I am missing!

I would also like to point out..I was on a 6 game winning streak til AC took over game threads!! What happens? We lose in the shootout...just saying..

Edited March 22, 2010 by bar

[BlueKross]

I always laugh at how commentators talk about how the team isn't big enough to compete in the playoffs. Like from 76 to now, we have been a speed first team. The system may have changed, but size never really did. We have 6 cups in that time. The next best team for cups in that time frame is Edmonton. Currie and Gretzky were hulking bastards huh? How about Detroit? Their cup teams have been actually quite small. Franzen was the only big guy on the 07/08 team. Holmstrom and Cleary and Zetterberg are average sized. They just play big. This version of the Habs plays big. Hell the smallest guy on the team...in the league?? Gionta, is our net crasher!

I get a kick out of Habs fans. We have barely played .500 hockey all year, we go on a six game winning streak to creep into play-offs possibly, and all of a sudden we are compared to the dynasty Oilers and Red Wings. We have basically done zilch for seventeen years except one year. If you are going to play the card that we have been successful because we are small and fast, I would have to say that our lack of success for the last seventeen years was for the exact same reasons. Not enough GRIT. Furthermore if you are going to bring teams referenced from over thirty years ago you might want to consider to-days size discrepancies.

[Wamsley01]

I get a kick out of Habs fans. We have barely played .500 hockey all year, we go on a six game winning streak to creep into play-offs possibly, and all of a sudden we are compared to the dynasty Oilers and Red Wings. We have basically done zilch for seventeen years except one year. If you are going to play the card that we have been successful because we are small and fast, I would have to say that our lack of success for the last seventeen years was for the exact same reasons. Not enough GRIT. Furthermore if you are going to bring teams referenced from over thirty years ago you might want to consider to-days size discrepancies.

He is not comparing the Habs to those teams, he is making the parallel that you don't need to be big to win. It is a myth created by guys like Cherry and Milbury who have a platform on CBC to spew their rhetoric and push forward their agenda.

If Cherry's platform was given to Martin St. Louis the message would change because the perspective would change.

The 1989 Canadiens got killed in the Finals by all 179 lbs of Doug Gilmour and the 5'6" Theo Fleury.

They were relentless on the puck and refused to quit.

The Wings dynasty was lead by Steve Yzerman who is revered for being one of the best all-around players of all-time. Nobody every questions his size, nobody ever questions his heart, nobody ever questions whether he was too small to compete. He was the number one center and he was 5'11" and 185 lbs and played the prime of his career when 6'5" oafs ruled the league.

Kris Draper, gritty player right? Why do you know this? Because Cherry shows clip after clip of how gritty he is. 5'11" and 190 lbs.

Maxim Talbot the star of Game 7 and one of the grinder/foot soldiers that helped the Pens win the Cup. 5'11' and 185 lbs.

Sidney Crosby. The Golden Boy. Cup winner. MVP. Arguably the best player in the NHL. 5'11 and 200 lbs.

This is not 1997 (which btw had a huge Flyers team get destroyed by a smaller finesse Wings team in the Stanley Cup Finals), yet somehow the stereotypes from that decade are pushed forward by media on a daily basis.

Winning hockey games is a matter of will, not size.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

He is not comparing the Habs to those teams, he is making the parallel that you don't need to be big to win. It is a myth created by guys like Cherry and Milbury who have a platform on CBC to spew their rhetoric and push forward their agenda.

Don't forget Macguire, who sprays orgasms all over the place for brain-dead hulks like Komisarek and Pronger while offering such insightful tidbits as suggesting that Mike Ribeiro would never make it in the NHL. It's all crap.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I was going to do a game thread for the Habs Sens but all madness broke out at work and I got home super furious (work) and just hit the pops when I got home so bad I threw in the towel on the Habs by about 12 mins in and went to bed.

The game came on today on RDS replay. I definitely was not in the mood to critique what I already knew. FLAT!

After the 6 game win it was easy street to the playoffs. And why should this year be any different. Habs do it the hard way This is a bad time for a slump and Buffalo ain't easy. What was once an excellent chance is now questionable due to Atlanta. If Florida, Tampa Bay and the Rangers turn out to be a threat when all is said and done...well, that's a total disaster.

I WANT RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wamsley01]

Don't forget Macguire, who sprays orgasms all over the place for brain-dead hulks like Komisarek and Pronger while offering such insightful tidbits as suggesting that Mike Ribeiro would never make it in the NHL. It's all crap.

He called Pascal Leclaire the best goaltender in Senators history on deadline day last year.

He said that the Jokinen deal made Calgary the team to beat in the west.

He said in 2006 that Souray and Huet had been exposed by the league yet both made the

2007 All-Star team.

When you refuse to come up for air between sentences you are bound to say as many ridiculous things

as you do intelligent. He is the new generation of broadcaster, he is not managing the game, he is managing

the brand. The Pierre McGuire brand.

[BlueKross]

The Wings dynasty was lead by Steve Yzerman who is revered for being one of the best all-around players of all-time. Nobody every questions his size, nobody ever questions his heart, nobody ever questions whether he was too small to compete. He was the number one center and he was 5'11" and 185 lbs and played the prime of his career when 6'5" oafs ruled the league.

Let's try this >

When Steve Y hand picked his Canadian Men's team how many little guys did he pick? Did he have twelve or fourteen like we have on Canadiens or did he have two or three? Guess Stevie doesn't know what he is doing. Besides that Cherry is right on the money more times than not.

[Wamsley01]

The Wings dynasty was lead by Steve Yzerman who is revered for being one of the best all-around players of all-time. Nobody every questions his size, nobody ever questions his heart, nobody ever questions whether he was too small to compete. He was the number one center and he was 5'11" and 185 lbs and played the prime of his career when 6'5" oafs ruled the league.

Let's try this >

When Steve Y hand picked his Canadian Men's team how many little guys did he pick? Did he have twelve or fourteen like we have on Canadiens or did he have two or three? Guess Stevie doesn't know what he is doing. Besides that Cherry is right on the money more times than not.

How close did Stevie Y come to losing to a US team made up of these monsters?

Zach Parise - 5' 11" - 190 lbs

Patrick Kane - 5'10' - 178 lbs

Phil Kessel - 6'0" - 192 lbs

Paul Stastny - 6'0" - 205 lbs

Dustin Brown - 6'0" - 207 lbs

Chris Drury - 5'10" - 200 lbs

Ryan Callahan - 5'11" - 185 lbs

Joe Pavelski - 5'11" - 195 lbs

Brian Rafalski - 5'10" - 200 lbs

What a huge team. No way they could have won with a little lineup like that.

[Habsy]

And to top it off, Sidney Crosby saved our bacon, and he's only 5'11.

[BTH]

He called Pascal Leclaire the best goaltender in Senators history on deadline day last year.

He said that the Jokinen deal made Calgary the team to beat in the west.

He said in 2006 that Souray and Huet had been exposed by the league yet both made the

2007 All-Star team.

When you refuse to come up for air between sentences you are bound to say as many ridiculous things

as you do intelligent. He is the new generation of broadcaster, he is not managing the game, he is managing

the brand. The Pierre McGuire brand.

Well, like you just said, he gives opinions and makes predictions daily. He's bound to come up wrong quite often. I still consider him one of the best analysts around.

By the way, he seems to have been right all along about Huet. Many Habs fans considered him an elite goalie. MacGuire always maintained that he was not much better than average. Now, he's widely considered a merely average starter. The case of Huet isn't so vastly different from that of Tim Thomas, who you've always campaigned against.

[Wamsley01]

Well, like you just said, he gives opinions and makes predictions daily. He's bound to come up wrong quite often. I still consider him one of the best analysts around.

By the way, he seems to have been right all along about Huet. Many Habs fans considered him an elite goalie. MacGuire always maintained that he was not much better than average. Now, he's widely considered a merely average starter. The case of Huet isn't so vastly different from that of Tim Thomas, who you've always campaigned against.

I never thought Huet was elite, but you have to remember 2010 Huet is approaching 35 years old.

I have said it a million times, Ken Holland believes there are 6-7 elite goaltenders and the rest are interchangeable.

I agree. It is why goalies emerge from nowhere and disappear just as fast on a yearly basis.

Bryzgalov hasn't miraculously improved, the team in front of him has. Thomas hasn't struggled this season,

his team is worse and his goal support is way down.

They are among the middle of the pack, far from McGuire's assessment that Huet had been figured out and

could not compete in the 2007 NHL.

[BTH]

I never thought Huet was elite, but you have to remember 2010 Huet is approaching 35 years old.

I have said it a million times, Ken Holland believes there are 6-7 elite goaltenders and the rest are interchangeable.

I agree. It is why goalies emerge from nowhere and disappear just as fast on a yearly basis.

Bryzgalov hasn't miraculously improved, the team in front of him has. Thomas hasn't struggled this season,

his team is worse and his goal support is way down.

They are among the middle of the pack, far from McGuire's assessment that Huet had been figured out and

could not compete in the 2007 NHL.

*shrug*

Huet had 3 great seasons in his career. At 34, he's an average NHL starter - but at 30 he was an average NHL back up. I don't buy that he's washed up.

Thomas's team is worse but he's also losing the starting job to Tuukka Rask who has to play on the same team.

If the 7 elite goalies are Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Nabokov, Miller, Backstrom and Fleury, does that mean that the second-tier guys like Vokoun and Ward are interchangeable with barely NHL goalies like Gerber, Auld and Holmqvist? The best goalies are the most consistent ones. Vokoun went from Nashville to Florida, got bombarded with shots on a weak team but continued playing well. Meanwhile, guys like Gerber, Auld, Holmqvist, Conklin and Garon bounce around from team to team without ever succeeding anywhere as number one for longer than short stretches.

Obviously, the team that plays in front of you is huge. But I wouldn't divide the leagues starting goalies in 2 (7 and 23), but in 3 (~7, ~10, ~13). I know I would take a healthy DiPietro over Brian Elliott.

[Wamsley01]

*shrug*

Huet had 3 great seasons in his career. At 34, he's an average NHL starter - but at 30 he was an average NHL back up. I don't buy that he's washed up.

Thomas's team is worse but he's also losing the starting job to Tuukka Rask who has to play on the same team.

If the 7 elite goalies are Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Nabokov, Miller, Backstrom and Fleury, does that mean that the second-tier guys like Vokoun and Ward are interchangeable with barely NHL goalies like Gerber, Auld and Holmqvist? The best goalies are the most consistent ones. Vokoun went from Nashville to Florida, got bombarded with shots on a weak team but continued playing well. Meanwhile, guys like Gerber, Auld, Holmqvist, Conklin and Garon bounce around from team to team without ever succeeding anywhere as number one for longer than short stretches.

Obviously, the team that plays in front of you is huge. But I wouldn't divide the leagues starting goalies in 2 (7 and 23), but in 3 (~7, ~10, ~13). I know I would take a healthy DiPietro over Brian Elliott.

Why do you assume that a 38 year old Brodeur is elite? Nabokov is not even close. What has Backstrom accomplished outside of Lemaire's system? Why is Fleury elite? Because he won a Cup? (Only once in Fleury's career has his SV% ascended above the league average).

Your assumption that Vokoun and Ward are second tier is YOUR assumption, not mine. They are among the elite in my book.

Holland's assessment is based on a revolving door. Goalies move in and out of the elite tier because of age. Price is not elite right now, but three years from now he may be. Brodeur was elite 5 years ago, but isn't anymore (take a look at Clemmensen/Weekes stats last season in comparison to the great Brodeur. Look at Danis' stats in comparison to his stats with the Islanders). At any given time there are an elite breed that out perform their contemporaries on a consistent basis regardless of environment.

When has Garon played on a good team? 4 games with the Pens is not a big enough sample to assess what type

of stats he could have accrued with them. Auld's 2008 numbers were very similar to Thomas' on the 2008 Bruins.

Gerber never succesful? Take a look at his 2003-04 seasons. He also put up monster win totals on the Canes and Sens.

You assume that Fleury is elite but then say when has Gerber done anything. Look at these stats.

2005-06 - Gerber - 38-14-6 2.78 GAA .906 SV%

2009-10 - Fleury - 33-19-5 2.66 GAA .906 SV%

Yet you included Fleury among the elite because he won a Cup. Look at Fleury's stats during his Cup winning

season.

2008-09 - Fleury - 35-18-7 2.67 GAA .912 SV%

Not much difference outside of a Stanley Cup and a place on the Olympic team. Strong optics which influence an

opinion due to his exposure and being hyped by the media. Now there are many layers to these numbers, but if assumptions are going be made on these numbers alone, then why not make the same ones for other players with similar numbers.

The majority of goaltenders are a product of their environment. Every year guys put up strong stats and the media fawns over them only for them to disappear when traded. The game has changed, every goalie is taught a technical style that makes it impossible for the untrained eye to pick up their flaws. Most individuals do not look at the goaltenders depth, their lateral movement, the holes that poor crease movement expose, poor technique that does not allow a strong recovery position, poor anticipation or reads that lead to bad save choices etc. They are all good enough to succeed if placed in a well insulated defensive situation.

Rask is putting up better numbers than Thomas because he is better than him. Simple as that.

Goalies peak and have hot seasons, they are not robots so at times they can show blips and differentiate themselves from the average, but over 4-5 years and a bigger sampling they usually descend back to mediocrity.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Wamsley01

[BlueKross]

And to top it off, Sidney Crosby saved our bacon, and he's only 5'11.

I didn't say you can't have little guys. I said repeatedly that you can't have a whole team of them and expect to be successful. Incidently a earlier post referenced Gilmore as a little guy being successful on the 89 Flames. The Flames were one of the biggest teams in the entire league that year, thank you very much. I haven't checked it out but I expect much the same with the Lightning and St. Louis on their Stanley Cup run.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I didn't say you can't have little guys. I said repeatedly that you can't have a whole team of them and expect to be successful. Incidently a earlier post referenced Gilmore as a little guy being successful on the 89 Flames. The Flames were one of the biggest teams in the entire league that year, thank you very much. I haven't checked it out but I expect much the same with the Lightning and St. Louis on their Stanley Cup run.

How about the best team of the last decade, the Red Wings?

Anyway, the real issue is: are the Habs, specifically, too small? Here's the relevant clip from J.T.'s excellent blog at http://habsloyalist.blogspot.com/2010/03/d...abs-myths.html:

"Just about every analyst who talks about the Canadiens cites this as a major weakness, particularly when it comes to the team's centres. It just isn't true, however. I decided to look at team averages by position, rather than overall, as goalie size doesn't really matter when it comes to assessing skaters and big goalies can skew team numbers. On average, the Canadiens are 6 feet tall and 199 pounds at forward. That ranks them about halfway down the list of NHL teams. On defence, (thanks to Hal Gill) they're an average of 6'2" and 213 pounds. That has them in the league's top ten. So, overall, they are not a small team. If anything, they're on par with about half the other teams in the league for size. When you compare their top-four centres to the rest of the league's top-four, they are admittedly a little bit smaller than most on average. The Habs' centres are about 5'11" each, and 198 pounds. The league average at the centre position is 6', 200."

Food fer thought.

[Wamsley01]

I didn't say you can't have little guys. I said repeatedly that you can't have a whole team of them and expect to be successful. Incidently a earlier post referenced Gilmore as a little guy being successful on the 89 Flames. The Flames were one of the biggest teams in the entire league that year, thank you very much. I haven't checked it out but I expect much the same with the Lightning and St. Louis on their Stanley Cup run.

Way to back that point up, nothing like proving it.

Their size was on their bottom lines, not on their top forward units.

The biggest guy in their top 6 scoring forwards was Joe Nieuwendyk, a monster of 6'1" and 195 lbs.

The rest of their scorers were Loob, Mullen, Gilmour, Fleury and Hrdina.

Their size was made up of Gary Roberts, Joel Otto, Colin Patterson, Jim Peplinski and Tim Hunter.

Third and fourth line grinders (and Roberts was not on their top lines at that point in his career).

The Flames D was large, but the small Calgary forwards didn't seem to have a problem with the large

Canadiens D, particularly Gilmour and Fleury.

[saskhab]

6-7 truly elite goalies. Let me guess:

Miller, Lundqvist, Ward, Vokoun, Luongo, Kiprusoff and Hiller? Those are 7 goalies who have pretty consistently elevated their teams more so than the other way around (Hiller's new to this list, so tough to tell right now).

[KoZed]

6-7 truly elite goalies. Let me guess:

Miller, Lundqvist, Ward, Vokoun, Luongo, Kiprusoff and Hiller? Those are 7 goalies who have pretty consistently elevated their teams more so than the other way around (Hiller's new to this list, so tough to tell right now).

No Brodeur?

[saskhab]

No Brodeur?

Wamsley said at 38 he doesn't consider him elite anymore. He's probably still on the bubble, though. Marty is severely insulated in Jersey... Clemmensen proved you don't need to be elite in Jersey to put up elite looking numbers.

I'm trying to guess Wamsley's Elite 6-7.

[ForumGhost]

Bryzgalov.

[BlueKross]

Way to back that point up, nothing like proving it.

Their size was on their bottom lines, not on their top forward units.

The biggest guy in their top 6 scoring forwards was Joe Nieuwendyk, a monster of 6'1" and 195 lbs.

The rest of their scorers were Loob, Mullen, Gilmour, Fleury and Hrdina.

Their size was made up of Gary Roberts, Joel Otto, Colin Patterson, Jim Peplinski and Tim Hunter.

Third and fourth line grinders (and Roberts was not on their top lines at that point in his career).

The Flames D was large, but the small Calgary forwards didn't seem to have a problem with the large

Canadiens D, particularly Gilmour and Fleury.

Hrdina was 6' 206 lbs. which in 89 was not small at all. You have correctly identified the small guys in LOOB,Gilmour and and Mullen. You have admitted that their defense was big, which it was, probably top 1,2 or3. You omitted Mark Hunter at 6' 200lbs., Lanny Macdonald at 6' 185 and Brian MacLellan at 6' 3'' 220 lbs. The 89 Calgary flames were one of the biggest teams in the league on defense and well above average up front.

[BCHabnut]

Dude, seriously? You are still arguing? Like a top 6 of Gilmour, Loob, Macdonald, Fleury, Hrdina and Nieuwendyk? Our top 6 averages the same or bigger. I still say the only truly big team to win the cup in forever years were teh Ducks. Big guys are great to have, and have a huge advantage in breaking the defense. They can take hits and give them. Is a massive top six absolutely neccessary? No.