GDT: Montreal vs New Jersey, Dec. 2

[dlbalr]

My 3 Stars for the night: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2288 I also added the scoring summary as the assists on quite a few goals changed.

[Toronthab]

My 3 Stars for the night: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2288 I also added the scoring summary as the assists on quite a few goals changed.

THat was a very nicely done summary. It was pleasant to read and showed a real appreciation for the players. Well done.

[Toronthab]

Sad to say, but it'll propbably be Weber. It's too bad, cause he's playing well tonight.

Another guy nobody seemed to notice last night was Picard. Even though i think he's been doing well this year, i thought Picard had a bad game last night! Maybe he'll sit out on saturday!

I also wanted to say that I think it's ok for Subban to be benched tonight. It'll do him some good in the long run!

Nice to see the guys Ham it up. I've been quite impressed with Picard all year. I'm not the sharpest critic, but he seems to play a lot of good steady hockey.

[JCPetit]

Good game by Weber. He had six shots on goal even though he did play less than 18 minutes and we had only two power plays. Obviously, he is more mature than P.K. when comes the time to use his shot. He knows the importance of hitting the net. P.K. is still young and very exhuberant; he likes big, booming slapshots. The problem is they're either on the boards or deflected, because he takes too much time to wind up.

I think that Weber, if can keep up playing like he did tonight deserves to be in the line-up on a regular basis. We also need P.K. There's no option, but to bench Picard, even though he has been playing well. We simply need a good power play and Weber has potential to become an important part of this special unit.

I also think that Max Pax is very close to Montreal. I would like him to remain a little bit more in Hamilton, but we definitely have a problem on the wings and he might be a solution. We simply can't compete with the best teams with Moen on one of our two best lines. It won't work and Martin is probably well aware of the problem and Gauthier too.

It's just a question of time. We'll see another forward joining the club very soon.

[brobin]

Good over all game, but to be honest, the Devils were brutal. They are making a lot of teams look good these days. Take away the Brodeur curse and even we can beat them!

As for the Subban benching, I am a bit worried about comments from JM that he needs to play within the system. I would read that as "play like the rest of the D, dump it in, don't take chances". While he has lots to learn, I don't want him stifled this early in his career. I want him to make that end to end rush. I want him to take some risks. Tonight, I watched our vets make stupid pinches many times and give NJ 2-1 chances. I doubt they will bench them for it.

I am not that worried, as long as this doesn't become a recurring theme every time he has a bad game.

Gomez almost had two tonight.. missed a wide open net, but that seems to be his luck these days. At least he is starting to score.. he is getting tighter to the net and getting the dirty goals... about time.

[JCPetit]

Let's face it: Subban played selfishly lately. Hockey is team sport. You have to play within a system, like it or not. It doesn't mean that you have to dump the puck. You can be creative on the ice, but you also have to be aware of what the other players are capable of doing. I am big Subban fan, but IMO he still has a lot to learn. Don't forget that Boucher benched him last year. I am not worried by Martins' decision. He has been very patient and, obviously, he likes the young man but also wants him to listen. That's a wake-up call for P.K. He is not in the OHL anymore; he plays with men and should act like one. That's all.

Edited December 3, 2010 by JCPetit

[PMAC]

Let's face it: Subban played selfishly lately. Hockey is team sport. You have to play within a system, like it or not. It doesn't mean that you have to dump the puck. You can be creative on the ice, but you also have to be aware of what the other players are capable of doing. I am big Subban fan, but IMO he still has a lot to learn. Don't forget that Boucher benched him last year. I am not worried by Martins' decision. He has been very patient and, obviously, he likes the young man but also wants him to listen. That's a wake-up call for P.K. He is not in the OHL anymore; he plays with men and should act like one. That's all.

Jesus, that Martin... what an idiot.. all he does is have the team in first in its division and playing consistently well.

Fire the coach...benching the rook led to a blowout in Jersey! Uh wait... Habs blew out the Devils!!?? Fire him anyway, he LOOKS boring

[bar]

Being a fan of the team PMAC, doesn't mean you have to trust ALL their decisions, and despite last night, I still think that was the wrong decision.

[Wamsley01]

Good over all game, but to be honest, the Devils were brutal. They are making a lot of teams look good these days. Take away the Brodeur curse and even we can beat them!

As for the Subban benching, I am a bit worried about comments from JM that he needs to play within the system. I would read that as "play like the rest of the D, dump it in, don't take chances". While he has lots to learn, I don't want him stifled this early in his career. I want him to make that end to end rush. I want him to take some risks. Tonight, I watched our vets make stupid pinches many times and give NJ 2-1 chances. I doubt they will bench them for it.

I am not that worried, as long as this doesn't become a recurring theme every time he has a bad game.

Gomez almost had two tonight.. missed a wide open net, but that seems to be his luck these days. At least he is starting to score.. he is getting tighter to the net and getting the dirty goals... about time.

This Subban stuff is ridiculous. Martin didn't bench him until he made TWO ridiculously reckless plays in a matter of 10 minutes

that were directly responsible for losing a game.

Not only did he make a terrible decision to pinch when he could have peeled back and had Gagner dump the puck out of the zone,

but in OT he admires his pass to Cammalleri and then fails to offer any defensive support should the pass go awry by gliding

out towards the boards.

If you DON'T bench him, what the hell does that say? Do you want Mike Green who continues to put up 80 pts a year but has

zero defensive responsibility or ability to stop anybody or do you want a Niedermayer type rushing defenseman who plays a

complete game?

Martin has been pretty accepting of PKs reckless offensive risks through 35 games, I see no problem with saying enough is enough

and stapling his ass to the bench for a game. I know it feels like PK has been around for a long time, but he is a kid who has played

27 career NHL games.

If Martin is not allowed to bench a raw rookie, why allow him to make any decisions at all?

Being a fan of the team PMAC, doesn't mean you have to trust ALL their decisions, and despite last night, I still think that was the wrong decision.

Why? Why was it the wrong decision?

[saskhab]

Wasn't too good after that though and that Plekanec penalty shot couldn't have been much worse. No speed = no goal, we've seen that enough in the shootout before to know that.

Honestly, as soon as he started with that little speed I gave up. How can Plex, of all people, not use his speed? He doesn't have as quick of hands as, say, Gomez to make a quick little deke even while skating like me at top speed.

And boy, can Weber shoot. We've known this, but it is still nonetheless impressive. And yeah, he looks WAY better as a D than a forward. So did Streit, of course, though no one seemed to realize it (particularly Carbo) since he was at least a passable forward. It's possible practicing with the team and playing spot duty will be good for him, but I'd still prefer him to fulfill his minor league eligibility.

Quit worrying about P.K. We want him to be a top flight d-man. So does the coaching staff. So does P.K. No one is trying to sabotage that.

[saskhab]

As for the D, Martin and Pearn realized early that Picard-Weber wasn't going to work and split them up, giving Weber to Hamrlik and Picard to Spacek. So that's one thing Subban has in his favour going forward: the ability to create a dominant 3rd pairing and a really effective D rotation. The fact the team won so handily without him should humble P.K., too. I'd bring him right back in.

Hamrlik has been freaking good this year. He can't log mad minutes anymore, but can he ever put up effective minutes.

Man, these Devils suck, though.

[TruthMonger]

And boy, can Weber shoot. We've known this, but it is still nonetheless impressive.

Does anybody have a recent number of his shot-speed? I know he hit 99.2 mph to win the OHL hardest shot competition a couple of years ago, but I'm wondering if he's picked up any speed as he gains muscle and experience.

[BCHabnut]

I think if Weber can actually play, we culd get Spacek on his natural side. Gorges is a natural left D, but he does a pretty darn good job on that side overall.

Hammer, Gorges,

Spacek, Weber

Gill, Subban.

There are a million variations, but if Weber can actually play, poor Picard will be benched again. lol

[dlbalr]

As for the D, Martin and Pearn realized early that Picard-Weber wasn't going to work and split them up, giving Weber to Hamrlik and Picard to Spacek. So that's one thing Subban has in his favour going forward: the ability to create a dominant 3rd pairing and a really effective D rotation. The fact the team won so handily without him should humble P.K., too. I'd bring him right back in.

Hamrlik has been freaking good this year. He can't log mad minutes anymore, but can he ever put up effective minutes.

Man, these Devils suck, though.

I agree with all those but I'll throw this out for discussion - who sits for Subban? Weber? Picard? Lapierre? (Play 7 D again)

Does anybody have a recent number of his shot-speed? I know he hit 99.2 mph to win the OHL hardest shot competition a couple of years ago, but I'm wondering if he's picked up any speed as he gains muscle and experience.

He wasn't in the hardest shot contest last year at the AHL All-Star game (a stunner), can't find any numbers more recent than that.

[Chris]

Well i was wrong again. I didn't expect that to happen. Fortunatley I didn't bet bar again.

I guess i can only blame myself, i keep going back to the Koivu led teams (not saying his fault) but watching those teams melt down and lose was very predictable. I guess JM and others do what they are doing.

They'll get a much better challenge on Saturday.

I thought most everyone played pretty well. Only a few brain cramps and Price was there to shut the Devils down.

[saskhab]

I think if Weber can actually play, we culd get Spacek on his natural side. Gorges is a natural left D, but he does a pretty darn good job on that side overall.

Hammer, Gorges,

Spacek, Weber

Gill, Subban.

There are a million variations, but if Weber can actually play, poor Picard will be benched again. lol

That would be a possibility, and Spacek is quite the pro about moving around. Though it would kind of suck for him to keep rotating based on a Weber vs. Subban vs. Picard setup.

I don't want to sit a forward... I think our four line setup is a real strength vs. last year.

Really, we just have to see if Weber can hold up 5 on 5 at this point. If we're playing Pittsburgh, Philly, Washington or Boston in their arena, can we really trust Weber out there when we know they'll try and target him by getting their best players on the ice when he's on? That would be the biggest factor in keeping him in the lineup. We know what element he can bring to the PP. 5 on 5 is still a huge question mark, and we don't want to screw around with 14-15 minutes of ice time.

[bar]

Why? Why was it the wrong decision?

I do not like the message it sends to a rookie who stood up and took fault for his actions. The benching was just piling on. You make good points about the room politics Wammy, but to me, I hate it. I dislike the unequal treatment of vets vs rookies. PK may be well off after this, but it just doesn't sit well with me. We will see if it was the correct thing to do in the next couple games.

[bar]

I agree with all those but I'll throw this out for discussion - who sits for Subban? Weber? Picard? Lapierre? (Play 7 D again)

He wasn't in the hardest shot contest last year at the AHL All-Star game (a stunner), can't find any numbers more recent than that.

Look at Brian stealing my discussion point from last night!

I'd say Picard sits though. Split up Spacey and Hammer, put Hammer, PK together, and Spacey Weber.

[PMAC]

I do not like the message it sends to a rookie who stood up and took fault for his actions. The benching was just piling on. You make good points about the room politics Wammy, but to me, I hate it. I dislike the unequal treatment of vets vs rookies. PK may be well off after this, but it just doesn't sit well with me. We will see if it was the correct thing to do in the next couple games.

You may not like it, but unequal treatment of rookies vs vets is as old as sports itself. Even in the veterans (over 35) rugby I play, if you move to a new club you have to prove yourself and pay your dues on and off the field before you are accorded the same treatment as the veterans on the club.

I'm sure that PK knows this and is pissed at being benched as anyone would be. The issue is: what kind of message does it send to the vets, to other rookies and PK himself if he gets a free pass? I really like that PK accepted responsibility. I like the fact that Martin benched him to emphasize that saying sorry is not enough in and of itself and I fully expect to see a focused, defensively responsible and creatively offensive PK in the next game.

I don't love every decision that management makes, but I do like this one...and the way that Martin has been handling Eller-- which is designed to deflect criticism from the rook to the coach.

I wasn't a fan of his hiring-- and I hated losing Boucher-- but Martin has earned his money and my respect :hlogo:

[saskhab]

You may not like it, but unequal treatment of rookies vs vets is as old as sports itself. Even in the veterans (over 35) rugby I play, if you move to a new club you have to prove yourself and pay your dues on and off the field before you are accorded the same treatment as the veterans on the club.

I'm sure that PK knows this and is pissed at being benched as anyone would be. The issue is: what kind of message does it send to the vets, to other rookies and PK himself if he gets a free pass? I really like that PK accepted responsibility. I like the fact that Martin benched him to emphasize that saying sorry is not enough in and of itself and I fully expect to see a focused, defensively responsible and creatively offensive PK in the next game.

I don't love every decision that management makes, but I do like this one...and the way that Martin has been handling Eller-- which is designed to deflect criticism from the rook to the coach.

I wasn't a fan of his hiring-- and I hated losing Boucher-- but Martin has earned his money and my respect :hlogo:

Excellent post.

[bar]

You may not like it, but unequal treatment of rookies vs vets is as old as sports itself. Even in the veterans (over 35) rugby I play, if you move to a new club you have to prove yourself and pay your dues on and off the field before you are accorded the same treatment as the veterans on the club.

I'm sure that PK knows this and is pissed at being benched as anyone would be. The issue is: what kind of message does it send to the vets, to other rookies and PK himself if he gets a free pass? I really like that PK accepted responsibility. I like the fact that Martin benched him to emphasize that saying sorry is not enough in and of itself and I fully expect to see a focused, defensively responsible and creatively offensive PK in the next game.

I don't love every decision that management makes, but I do like this one...and the way that Martin has been handling Eller-- which is designed to deflect criticism from the rook to the coach.

I wasn't a fan of his hiring-- and I hated losing Boucher-- but Martin has earned his money and my respect :hlogo:

Not to nitpick but I can turn around your post and say, how does Eller feel to see Gomez playing horrible and getting more ice time, heck how does Pouliot feel, after getting better and better with more limited roles as it goes along? I completely understand that it's a time honoured tradition but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Wamsley01]

Not to nitpick but I can turn around your post and say, how does Eller feel to see Gomez playing horrible and getting more ice time, heck how does Pouliot feel, after getting better and better with more limited roles as it goes along? I completely understand that it's a time honoured tradition but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

What does it have to do with you though? It is unimportant if you don't like the internal dynamic of a dressing room

that you have never or will never be a part of. You are making assessments based on zero information, I don't understand

how you can dislike a decision when you have no access to the pertinent information.

There is a hierarchy, just like there is in an office. If an intern wants to be treated like a guy who has brought in

millions of dollars or won awards, guess what, they will be told to eff off.

The point is Eller, Subban and Pouliot do not have a 10 year resume of trusted performance to fall back on when

they struggle or screw up. So they have a shorter leash. Simple as that.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Wamsley01

[brobin]

What hyperbole ... no one is calling him an idiot or suggesting firing Martin. If Martin is now perfect and never makes mistakes, I guess the cup will soon runninth over...

I think it is valid to have mild concerns about internal issues in the team. I am certianly not suggesting that there are big issues, but we have a track record of prospects getting fed up in Monteal and moving on. This should be an area the team as a whole should work to improve on. Look at Detroit, they seem to slow guys progress down dramatically without any of them feeling frustrated. My hats off to that organization.

It might very well be the right decision to keep a guy in the minors, or use him sparingly as a development technique, but if he is upset about it, then you didn't communicate it correctly.

Frankly, PK is the type who will let it roll of his back and just dig deeper. He won't pull a hissy fit if he gets benched, which is how he developed so quickly and so well. He may be cocky, but he is also extremely humble. (sounds strange, but its true).

We might be doing well, but until I see Gil giving Gionta a boost so he can sip from the cup, then we have room to continuously improve.

Jesus, that Martin... what an idiot.. all he does is have the team in first in its division and playing consistently well.

Fire the coach...benching the rook led to a blowout in Jersey! Uh wait... Habs blew out the Devils!!?? Fire him anyway, he LOOKS boring

[Wamsley01]

What hyperbole ... no one is calling him an idiot or suggesting firing Martin. If Martin is now perfect and never makes mistakes, I guess the cup will soon runninth over...

I think it is valid to have mild concerns about internal issues in the team. I am certianly not suggesting that there are big issues, but we have a track record of prospects getting fed up in Monteal and moving on. This should be an area the team as a whole should work to improve on. Look at Detroit, they seem to slow guys progress down dramatically without any of them feeling frustrated. My hats off to that organization.

It might very well be the right decision to keep a guy in the minors, or use him sparingly as a development technique, but if he is upset about it, then you didn't communicate it correctly.

Frankly, PK is the type who will let it roll of his back and just dig deeper. He won't pull a hissy fit if he gets benched, which is how he developed so quickly and so well. He may be cocky, but he is also extremely humble. (sounds strange, but its true).

We might be doing well, but until I see Gil giving Gionta a boost so he can sip from the cup, then we have room to continuously improve.

A track record based on a different coach and General Manager.

Also, name me a player of consequence in the last decade who got fed up with management and moved on?

I don't recall any free agents fleeing or coveted prospects slamming Montreal on their way out of town. All the guys

who left had Gainey's foot on their ass as they left. Koivu, Kovalev, Souray, Huet, Theodore, the only guy was Streit

and that was likely a $$ thing, as in the Habs didn't have enough.

Komisarek? Grabovski? S. Kostitsyn? Not exactly regretting the departure of any of those guys. I am on board with CC

on this. Get with the program or goodbye. The sense of entitlement needs to be removed or we risk another lost generation

of prospects.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

A track record based on a different coach and General Manager.

Also, name me a player of consequence in the last decade who got fed up with management and moved on?

I don't recall any free agents fleeing or coveted prospects slamming Montreal on their way out of town. All the guys

who left had Gainey's foot on their ass as they left. Koivu, Kovalev, Souray, Huet, Theodore, the only guy was Streit

and that was likely a $$ thing, as in the Habs didn't have enough.

Komisarek? Grabovski? S. Kostitsyn? Not exactly regretting the departure of any of those guys. I am on board with CC

on this. Get with the program or goodbye. The sense of entitlement needs to be removed or we risk another lost generation

of prospects.

Further to this, the whole point of the Martin era, to me, is that the team is taking a totally different approach to player development. This is possibly less due to a philosophical change, than to the facts that we have a much better veteran core now, which gives us more leeway to put a Pouliot on the bottom-6 and teach him the game; and to the fact that our current coach seems to be much better at conveying a consistent and clear message to the players. The whole point is: no more unwarranted egos, no more unwarranted entitlement. No more treating unproven punks like stars. The team absolutely has to teach young players that no matter how adored they may be out on the bar scene, no matter how much the city throws itself at their feet, when it comes to business they will always be expected to bring total team commitment, hard work, and adherence to the coach's system. If they don't, they sit.

Guys like Gomez and Spacek already know that and have proven over many years that they know that. Treating young players identitically to proven veterans is exactly the wrong message to send. That's how you create the entitlement mentality - by levelling out differences between Cup-winners and unproven punks. No matter how much Gomez is struggling, guys like Subban should not expect to be treated just like him. Gomer has earned respect and trust that he will sort things out. Subban absolutely MUST NOT be given the message that he will have things handed to him regardless of his performance.

I find it slightly funny that a fan base that, until this season, was in a rage over how Carey Price was handed everything despite failing to earn it, now wants the team to do the same thing with Subban. I agree that Price was given the wrong message. And note that JM was the one to straighten him out.

We're in good hands, folks.

Edited December 3, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber