GDT: Capitals vs Canadiens, Mar. 26

[bar]

CC all joking aside can you stand by JMs decision making? I know I have lots of questions. PHD line was dynamite earlier in the season but lets not put them back together.

[BrenDittero]

So Tampa, Buffalo and New York all got points today. Not good news for the Habs.

[dlbalr]

So Tampa, Buffalo and New York all got points today. Not good news for the Habs.

Carolina lost at least, moving the magic number to clinch down to 7 points.

[Habsy]

Don Cherry might be the dumbest man on television. He suggests karma for the Habs running up the score against Minnesota. Didn't his beloved Bruins beat us by the same margin?

[hab29RETIRED]

Yeah, this powerhouse roster would be right up there with Vancouver for the league lead if we didn't have that stupid boob Jacques Martin

Who said anything about challenging for the league lead. At least they wouldn't be putting up three consecutive goose eggs up on the board and show such a horrible effort after a humiliating defeat at home against Boston.

JM is a stubborn ass and as I said last year, he CANNOT make adjustments on the fly. Subban should have been on the PP - Pleks doesn't belong on the point that experiement sholud have ended before Pleks got injured. E

ller was showing some drive, he should have been paired with Gionta who at least played hard. AK46 doesn't deserve to have to play with Gomer - everytime they have tried that AK46 has gone to sleep - today he still played hard.

Cammy should have his ass nailed to the bench for a while. He has sucked and deserves the embarressment of having his ass nailed to the bench. Let him stew over in anger and at least come back with some hunger. He isn't just missing on good oppertunities, he has also been lacking in his effort.

Coaches have to make adjustments in slumps like this, but like I said, Martin is the stubborn stupid gambler who is trying to stick with the same plan he had going in and is unable to make adjustments when required.

This is one of the most penalized teams in the league - yet it is one of the least physical. penalties are usual stupid, selfish, lazy penalties - many of them taken by so called leaders like Gomez and Hamrlik. To me that is on the coaching staff. You have to hold people accountable to stupid, lazy penalties (not just rookies), and the penalty issue should have been nipped in the bud months ago.

You seem to have the same blind faith in JM that you had in Gomez for his first 1 1/2 years in Montreal.

Don Cherry might be the dumbest man on television. He suggests karma for the Habs running up the score against Minnesota. Didn't his beloved Bruins beat us by the same margin?

Yep and of course he didn't bring up that it was karma that led them to be shutout by the Rangers. But I wouldn't expect any sort of objectivity from that cross dressing drag queen.

Edited March 27, 2011 by hab29RETIRED

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

CC all joking aside can you stand by JMs decision making? I know I have lots of questions. PHD line was dynamite earlier in the season but lets not put them back together.

Actually, I agree with some of the criticisms made of JM today. Reducing PK's ice-time seems to me sheer folly, for instance, as he has been consistently been the best thing going on this team (except for Price). I understand his decision to keep (doggedly) using Gomer Pyle but disagree with it; by now I would have given up on that idiot and started redistributing his ice time to DD and Eller. But since I come at it from the prior assumption that JM is a good coach, I don't take every single decision I disagree with as MORE PROOF THAT JM IS A JACKASS.

Specific decisions aside, the irrationality of constantly blaming Martin every time things don't go our way is exposed the moment you ask who else could have done better with this injury-decimated team all season long. Unless you believe that this really is a 110-point team in disguise, the results prove Martin's worth. So I suppose I should clarify: it's not criticism of this or that decision I mind, it's the endless raving from Habs fans about how Martin is some sort of incompetent dinosaur who needs to go - which is usually the conclusion at play among posters playing Angry Armchair Coach.

[Habsy]

I think you make a valid point CC. This team has over-achieved so far this season, so blaming the coach might not be fair. However, if this was New Jersey, his ass would be fired tonight, by you know who.

[hab29RETIRED]

I think you make a valid point CC. This team has over-achieved so far this season, so blaming the coach might not be fair. However, if this was New Jersey, his ass would be fired tonight, by you know who.

This team has over achieved, but thats because of Price. I think its telling sign, when you get shut-out 2-0 and your goalies the first star (yeah, part of that is due to the fans voting), but really, if Price hadn't stolen at least 10-12 games this year, the habs are not in the playoffs.

[dlbalr]

3 Stars now up, needed a few more minutes to research the stat of the night which really isn't a stat so much from tonight but rather something that's been bothering me for a bit. http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2436

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This team has over achieved, but thats because of Price. I think its telling sign, when you get shut-out 2-0 and your goalies the first star (yeah, part of that is due to the fans voting), but really, if Price hadn't stolen at least 10-12 games this year, the habs are not in the playoffs.

Right. So this team without Martin is good for an extra 10-12 wins, I guess.

Hate JM all you like, I'm tired of the running argument.

EDIT: I just noticed your crack about my 'blind love' of Gomez. Last season Gomez was #20 in the entire league for assists. Therefore I defended him. This year he is wretched in every facet of the game. Therefore I don't defend him. See the difference? I thought not.

Edited March 27, 2011 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[hab29RETIRED]

Right. So this team without Martin is good for an extra 10-12 wins, I guess.

Hate JM all you like, I'm tired of the running argument.

EDIT: I just noticed your crack about my 'blind love' of Gomez. Last season Gomez was #20 in the entire league for assists. Therefore I defended him. This year he is wretched in every facet of the game. Therefore I don't defend him. See the difference? I thought not.

I seem to recall you defending him as late as december this season as well - despite him being wretched in every facet of the game.

Edited March 27, 2011 by hab29RETIRED

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I seem to recall you defending him as late as december this season as well - despite him being wretched in every facet of the game.

That's right, I waited a good length of time before throwing a proven veteran under the bus. What was I thinking.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Don Cherry might be the dumbest man on television. He suggests karma for the Habs running up the score against Minnesota. Didn't his beloved Bruins beat us by the same margin?

Yeah, but that was followed by the Bruins getting shutout vs the Rangers themselves.

[dlbalr]

I seem to recall you defending him as late as december this season as well - despite him being wretched in every facet of the game.

From a comment like this, an uninformed reader would think that Gomez hasn't done a single thing right all year (and yes, I know you're using a phrase used by someone else earlier). Guess what, he has. To call him wretched in every facet of the game is complete and utter BS. He can still play, and still help this team. They are better with him than they are without him and if people don't think so, check out the success of this team while he was out of the lineup. Quite reminiscent of this stretch but with less offensive pressure (which is quite sad to even remember, honestly).

I'm venting a bit here but I'm sick and tired of the incessant Gomez bashing, it's gotten old and accomplishes nothing. If he has a good game, we see people whine that he doesn't do it more often. Guess what? He's not the only player struggling but yet he's the only one people seem to call out with any regularity. Is it justified? Yes, he deserves some of the blame. Note that some doesn't mean all, yet some here (and elsewhere) seem to believe that he is to blame for all of the team's problems. It's not true, and everyone here knows that (or should at least). Same for Martin, yes, we disagree with some of the tactics but it's still up to the players to execute; I don't think anyone's naive enough to believe that the game plan was to go and get shut out 3 straight games.

I remember a post I made during a similar stretch where I said enough is enough about the posts that simply perpetuate the same tired rants about Gomez and Martin in particular. A reminder is in order, I believe. As a reader (and someone who has to moderate this board), I don't think I, or anyone else wants to read something where every 5th post spews the same things over and over that's full of incessant whining. Other boards are known for that; that's why people come here, for intelligent discussion and to escape stuff like this. Repeated bashing posts doesn't exactly provide that.

Look, I know it's a losing streak and we're all upset. But even still, we should still be capable of having quality discussions that don't involve hyperbole as quoted above. Please also note that this is not directed at anyone in particular and that the quoted post was just selected as the most recent one from this discussion; it was not intended to single that poster, or any other one, out.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

dlbar, you are a voice of reason of course. If you look at the post where I used the phrase, you'll find I wrote it less as a direct blast at Gomez and more as a rhetorical parallelism to make a rather different point, a point about basing opinions on performance rather than axiomatic likes and dislikes.

Right there is the significant difference between Martin and Gomez, though: namely that JM's results tend to work in his favour and Gomez's don't. Let's face it. When a player's performance has been as catastrophic as Gomez's has been this season - 35 points?? -15??? - there's nothing for it: you're going to get repeated complaining about it, and I don't think there's much that can (or should) be done about that.

[bar]

Brian my reasoning for not praising Gomez play is simple, the salary cap. For what he makes and the minutes he get, he is a terrible value. When he does do well, guess what HE SHOULD be doing it. He isn't a rookie who plays over his head like White, Eller, etc. When you make the big bucks you accept that have to produce or you will be ripped. To be honest though, I'm less worried about Gomez, and am more concerned with Cammy. He doesn't look like his trying out there, Gomez at least tries so there's that, but Cammy, if he's injured, take him out of the line up.

Also as to Brians stat of the night, I think that's a huge deal, I don't have the numbers from the season, but it seems like when ever there is an important draw in the opponents zone, the habs lose it and that kills any momentum. I propose lines like this:

AK/Plek/Cammy

Moen/Gomez/Gionta

White/Eller/Deharnais

Pouliot/Halpern/Darche

Maybe swap Eller and Deharnais. My reasoning is, the PHD line had great success earlier in the season, the 3rd/4th line might have chemistry from Hamilton, the 2nd line actually had some success together, and AK plays better with Plek than Gomez.

[BrenDittero]

3 Stars now up, needed a few more minutes to research the stat of the night which really isn't a stat so much from tonight but rather something that's been bothering me for a bit. http://www.habsworld...cle.php?id=2436

Your breakdown of face offs between Pleks and Halpy was great.

Defiantly one part of this "why can't the Habs get it together " puzzle that is easily overlooked.

Thanks for bringing that up.

[Toronthab]

Actually, I agree with some of the criticisms made of JM today. Reducing PK's ice-time seems to me sheer folly, for instance, as he has been consistently been the best thing going on this team (except for Price). I understand his decision to keep (doggedly) using Gomer Pyle but disagree with it; by now I would have given up on that idiot and started redistributing his ice time to DD and Eller. But since I come at it from the prior assumption that JM is a good coach, I don't take every single decision I disagree with as MORE PROOF THAT JM IS A JACKASS.

Specific decisions aside, the irrationality of constantly blaming Martin every time things don't go our way is exposed the moment you ask who else could have done better with this injury-decimated team all season long. Unless you believe that this really is a 110-point team in disguise, the results prove Martin's worth. So I suppose I should clarify: it's not criticism of this or that decision I mind, it's the endless raving from Habs fans about how Martin is some sort of incompetent dinosaur who needs to go - which is usually the conclusion at play among posters playing Angry Armchair Coach.

The team has done remarkably well this year after starting the years with the loss of Markov... and the injuries piled up from there. Kudos to JM and the coaching staff who at various times even had the team playing over their heads.

While I'm sure coaches make mistakes , large and small... like who doesnt' I believe that in most cases one actually has to be in the room and behind the bench to fine-tune one's decision matrix.

Our team is not an offensive juggernaut while we show pretty good depth and savvy moves from PG to keep us in the game, and our team coaching system, based upon Price is the only one we have to play. And it works, overall.

Go Habs Go. It's also a good time to reflect upon our team and thank God that guys like me arent coaching. :-)

[dlbalr]

dlbar, you are a voice of reason of course. If you look at the post where I used the phrase, you'll find I wrote it less as a direct blast at Gomez and more as a rhetorical parallelism to make a rather different point, a point about basing opinions on performance rather than axiomatic likes and dislikes.

That's where I'm hoping we can get back to. I find more and more now that a lot of people are moving into polarized views, you either are a 'lover' or a 'hater.' It's shaping up as the 2nd coming of Price/Halak again and that's not a good thing.

Brian my reasoning for not praising Gomez play is simple, the salary cap. For what he makes and the minutes he get, he is a terrible value. When he does do well, guess what HE SHOULD be doing it. He isn't a rookie who plays over his head like White, Eller, etc. When you make the big bucks you accept that have to produce or you will be ripped. To be honest though, I'm less worried about Gomez, and am more concerned with Cammy. He doesn't look like his trying out there, Gomez at least tries so there's that, but Cammy, if he's injured, take him out of the line up.

It's hard to overlook the cap issue, I must admit. But at this point of the season, where no more moves will be made, it's a little easier. Gomez isn't being waived and sent to Hamilton tomorrow, or any other day this season, there's no replacement coming in. Both sides are stuck with each other. It shouldn't be a discussion of what could have been, but rather what is with this roster as constructed. Yes, his play doesn't warrant his salary, I'll be the first to admit that and he's certainly not immune to being criticized, but I try and evaluate him now as, "Does his play help the team?" More often than not, the answer is still yes which is what irks me when after a loss where the entire team doesn't score, the focus and most often the blame shifts to Gomez alone. Just seems too much like scapegoating to me.

Also as to Brians stat of the night, I think that's a huge deal, I don't have the numbers from the season, but it seems like when ever there is an important draw in the opponents zone, the habs lose it and that kills any momentum. I propose lines like this:

AK/Plek/Cammy

Moen/Gomez/Gionta

White/Eller/Deharnais

Pouliot/Halpern/Darche

Maybe swap Eller and Deharnais. My reasoning is, the PHD line had great success earlier in the season, the 3rd/4th line might have chemistry from Hamilton, the 2nd line actually had some success together, and AK plays better with Plek than Gomez.

I'd like to see Cammalleri play with Desharnais myself; for most of this season, it seemed whoever played with Desharnais magically sprung to life. At this point, why not give it a shot?

[SOOPAVILLIN]

That's where I'm hoping we can get back to. I find more and more now that a lot of people are moving into polarized views, you either are a 'lover' or a 'hater.' It's shaping up as the 2nd coming of Price/Halak again and that's not a good

I hope I'm not falling into the love/hate thing cause that's certainly not my intention I'm just trying to be realistic in the sense that the Habs don't need to finish first or win everygame or play 100% everygame to have something good to say, just trying to have cooler heads prevail I guess.

[BTH]

I don't think Gomez has been that bad. I think he (and Cammalleri at the moment) are playing like solid third liners. But higher pay and higher profile names make for higher expectations. They're reminding me of Plekanec in his 49 point season. I thought he was an effective third liner and penalty killer. Meanwhile, most people were calling him a little girl and didn't want him on the team just because he didn't come near his 69 points from the previous season. He finished the season with 20 goals and 29 assists, while being the team's top defensive forward. Gomez, Cammalleri and Gionta are similar to Pleks in that they are all chippy, hard working players that can play at both ends of the ice. This means that even when they can't score for their lives, they still make for great energy players.

[dlbalr]

I hope I'm not falling into the love/hate thing cause that's certainly not my intention I'm just trying to be realistic in the sense that the Habs don't need to finish first or win everygame or play 100% everygame to have something good to say, just trying to have cooler heads prevail I guess.

There's only a handful of people here who I'd classify in that polarized category (and to their credit, have been consistent with it over the long haul which is good), but I've noticed in general on other boards and in the e-mails I get from readers that the battle lines have been drawn so to speak. I'm hoping that by mentioning this now, we can nip this before it becomes more problematic here. Discussion, good or bad, is fine, just as long as it doesn't degenerate into mindless bashing. We've got a good group of posters here, I suspect we'll be fine.

[brobin]

+ Million

If we swapped Gomez and the average 2nd line center, we would hardly be a juggernaut. If we cut his time and gave it to Des, Des would probably struggle with the extra time and extra attention. Des would have to play the top defensive lines on the other team.

This team has some significant issues: too small, too many injuries, most players have poor years. Next year, these same players might have rebound years, the injuries could be fewer, we could add one or two power wingers, and suddenly.. this is a top team in the east.

Gomez will always be poor value, but most teams have that guy on the roster. If we get a power forward to play wing and he has a decent year (say, 60 plus points), then I will have no issue with him being on the team. If we can find a better player to replace him with, I am good with too. What I don't want, is to panic, dump him, and then find no one to replace him with. If you think Des is the answer, then don't whine about being small up the middle.

That's where I'm hoping we can get back to. I find more and more now that a lot of people are moving into polarized views, you either are a 'lover' or a 'hater.' It's shaping up as the 2nd coming of Price/Halak again and that's not a good thing.

It's hard to overlook the cap issue, I must admit. But at this point of the season, where no more moves will be made, it's a little easier. Gomez isn't being waived and sent to Hamilton tomorrow, or any other day this season, there's no replacement coming in. Both sides are stuck with each other. It shouldn't be a discussion of what could have been, but rather what is with this roster as constructed. Yes, his play doesn't warrant his salary, I'll be the first to admit that and he's certainly not immune to being criticized, but I try and evaluate him now as, "Does his play help the team?" More often than not, the answer is still yes which is what irks me when after a loss where the entire team doesn't score, the focus and most often the blame shifts to Gomez alone. Just seems too much like scapegoating to me.

I'd like to see Cammalleri play with Desharnais myself; for most of this season, it seemed whoever played with Desharnais magically sprung to life. At this point, why not give it a shot?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't think Gomez has been that bad. I think he (and Cammalleri at the moment) are playing like solid third liners. But higher pay and higher profile names make for higher expectations. They're reminding me of Plekanec in his 49 point season. I thought he was an effective third liner and penalty killer. Meanwhile, most people were calling him a little girl and didn't want him on the team just because he didn't come near his 69 points from the previous season. He finished the season with 20 goals and 29 assists, while being the team's top defensive forward. Gomez, Cammalleri and Gionta are similar to Pleks in that they are all chippy, hard working players that can play at both ends of the ice. This means that even when they can't score for their lives, they still make for great energy players.

I dunno...I think this is too charitable to Gomez. So many of his rushes and offensive zone plays seem to end up with the puck on the other team's stick, it's not even funny; if anything, he sucks the life out of plays more often than he succeeds in kindling them. That's what drives me crazy. It's not just that Gomer is not producing; unlike Cammy and Gio, he seems to be actively hurting the team with some frequency, a point well-documented in analyses such as this: http://habsloyalist....mez-effect.html

Certainly he is *not* a good third liner (stats aren't everything, but a +/- of -15 doesn't speak to a good defensive player). And of course he brings absolutely zero physical presence or meaningful 'compete' level along the boards etc.. The bottom line with Gomez is that, despite his limitations as a goal-scorer and his lack of physical prowess, he always was an elite playmaker with great speed. Now his playmaking has almost completely deserted him. The ONLY thing he has left is speed. If he were a rookie, he likely would have been sent down weeks ago, classified as one of those guys who 'shows flashes' but is one-dimensional and still needs to learn the game. Unfortunately he is no rookie.

Now, dlbalr is absolutely right that sending him down NOW, or even ranting about what a horrible acquisition he was two years ago (which conveniently overlooks his perfectly adequate performance last season), is counter-productive, Groundhog-Day-type behaviour. Right now, the only other option we have at C is Desharnais; and only a foolish organization would send a Gomez to the minors with 10 games left and hand over the reins to a 5'7 unproven rookie. We are indeed stuck with him. That shouldn't blind us to the fact that this season he has been absolutely (one of?) the WORST second-line C in the NHL and that a solution WILL need to be found for the Gomez Problem.

Cammy and Gio are plucky players who are slumping. Gomez is another matter entirely.

[bar]

We are overlooking one centre here. Halpern would be #2 on my depthchart of the habs and has shown more offensive flare than Gomez has this season. I do not see Deh as ever being more than a avg #2 if that.