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jmaac1

Who will Gauthier target next?

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I want to know if the young players can play, my friend was bemoaning the loss of potential signings of Arnott and Lagenbrunner, but I am happy. I see a lot of people point at teams like Philly, and Boston, who have these young players step up and say "why can't the habs?", the reason as I think Wammy very well put was, we lack faith in them and go get these vets. I seem to be pulling a lot of stuff from Wammys post, but this is the cap age, I'd rather a player like Enqvuist making a mistake and gaining experience at 800k, than a vet making a mistake and getting paid 1.6m, only to see him leave at years end ala Halpern, Lang, etc.

wait a minute what mistake did players like halpern, lang, and moore make? These guys were essential additions that helped the habs through out the season and playoffs over the years, these are not the type of players who make "mistakes". So what would be wrong about replacing these guys with VETS who KNOW what they are doing especially when it comes to playoffs. I don't know about you but i'm f.u.k.ing sick of this stanley cup drought, and that we have to make moves that will help us win now! And we have to stop talking about how were built for the future and that were only 1 or 2 years away from being perrenial stanley cup contenders because its the same story every f.u.k.ing year.

We are the Montreal Canadiens for god sake its not normal not to win a cup in almost 20 years, so wake up and stop thinking about this youth movement thing, every year we have a youth movement, it always the same story.

Right now we are close to winning, I can feel it and right now our best chance is to fill these littles holes like getting another veteran defenseman for depth, and a third line veteran grinder who can score. I don't care if their young or old but they have to be big guys and to have some playoff experience. And I think if gauthier adresses these holes then your looking at one of the better teams that montreal is gonna have in a very long time. And i'll tell you that if montreal had markov, gorges, and pacioretty against the bruins I guarantee you that they would have no chance beating montreal. Next year you have all these guys back and add the addition of an eric cole and hopefully sign a solid third line player and a defenceman, I would be as excited as a kid in a candy store for next year.

Edited by jmaac1

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yes Nash looked out of step in his first stint, but any player does in jumping up. But just my opinion that he would adjust quick enough as he is good sized, OK on the PP and quick enough, but i would of had Weber eat up Wiz's minutes and if a 2nd was all you think they would of got at deadline, then would not of traded, but i knew he would demand $5/year with his offensive numbers and unlike a Souray or Strait, it would be nice to think long term and trade when value is highest, instead of letting walk for nothing.

I really doubt would of noticed a difference with Weber in Wiz's spot for the last 20 games and 1st round, other than Weber would be more advanced and ready to be a 3rd weapon on the PP point for this coming season .

Nash didn't just struggle with the Habs, he struggled big time down the stretch in Hamilton. He simply ran out of gas and would have even more so with Montreal. He was actually scratched periodically late in the year with the Bulldogs.

Your right we don't know but I think if gauthier really wanted him he could of got him

And why is that? Not every player wants to play for the Habs; he and Arnott were a package deal as well and Montreal didn't have the cap space for both. And at $2.8 million, the Blues can have him.

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All things being equal, face-offs are a nice skill to have, but I would hope it doesn't factor into any decision overly much. Unless you're comparing the best face-off guys in the league to the worst, the difference really isn't as great as it's sometimes made out to be. An average guy like Pleks takes about 20 face-offs a game and wins 10 (50%). A face-off whiz like Konopka wins 57%, which comes out to 11.4 on 20, or just over one extra win per game. So while I'd agree that one extra face-off win per game is not a bad thing, I would never want it to factor into free agent selection more than skating, hitting, or shooting.

I think that faceoffs are more important now than ever before. Why? There are less of them. It is not as easy to use tactics which can blow the play dead. A team like the Habs needs to have the puck. The system relies on them having the puck. They cant bang bodies and take the puck away, so it is best to have it already. Also when you consider the importance of faceoffs and special teams and how the habs rely on special teams, its a nO brainer

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wait a minute what mistake did players like halpern, lang, and moore make? These guys were essential additions that helped the habs through out the season and playoffs over the years, these are not the type of players who make "mistakes". So what would be wrong about replacing these guys with VETS who KNOW what they are doing especially when it comes to playoffs. I don't know about you but i'm f.u.k.ing sick of this stanley cup drought, and that we have to make moves that will help us win now! And we have to stop talking about how were built for the future and that were only 1 or 2 years away from being perrenial stanley cup contenders because its the same story every f.u.k.ing year.

We are the Montreal Canadiens for god sake its not normal not to win a cup in almost 20 years, so wake up and stop thinking about this youth movement thing, every year we have a youth movement, it always the same story.

Right now we are close to winning, I can feel it and right now our best chance is to fill these littles holes like getting another veteran defenseman for depth, and a third line veteran grinder who can score. I don't care if their young or old but they have to be big guys and to have some playoff experience. And I think if gauthier adresses these holes then your looking at one of the better teams that montreal is gonna have in a very long time. And i'll tell you that if montreal had markov, gorges, and pacioretty against the bruins I guarantee you that they would have no chance beating montreal. Next year you have all these guys back and add the addition of an eric cole and hopefully sign a solid third line player and a defenceman, I would be as excited as a kid in a candy store for next year.

Under JM, vets had a lot more leash than the young guys. I can't recall mistakes that players made but I know they were not perfect. How do players get to become vets? They are played...thats what I am getting at. This team is not lacking for vets as it is: Gomez, Gionta, Cammy, Moen, Gill, Markov, Cole.

I just don't get the theory of these 3rd and 4th line marginal players putting the habs over the top. What the habs were missing last year was scoring, not depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.

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Hey, i was all for calling up Shawn Belle and Alex Henry as well, so what the heck do i know, but i hadnt heard Nash struggled at all, and also i think St.Denis was voted their top d-man wasnt he? What is the matter with Carle? is he just not developing and keeps getting passed over, but of the few reports i hear, they alwasy seem good, but is he a career AHLer, or still too early to say?

Nash didn't just struggle with the Habs, he struggled big time down the stretch in Hamilton. He simply ran out of gas and would have even more so with Montreal. He was actually scratched periodically late in the year with the Bulldogs.

And why is that? Not every player wants to play for the Habs; he and Arnott were a package deal as well and Montreal didn't have the cap space for both. And at $2.8 million, the Blues can have him.

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Hey, i was all for calling up Shawn Belle and Alex Henry as well, so what the heck do i know, but i hadnt heard Nash struggled at all, and also i think St.Denis was voted their top d-man wasnt he? What is the matter with Carle? is he just not developing and keeps getting passed over, but of the few reports i hear, they alwasy seem good, but is he a career AHLer, or still too early to say?

Belle split time last year between Colorado and Edmonton, he was at no time affiliated with the Habs last season. Henry's NHL days are more than done, he's a 3rd pairing AHL guy now and that's it. St. Denis was certainly a stabilizer on their blueline last year. Carle by no means played bad down there, but he didn't exactly turn anyone's heads either. He won't be an NHL'er with the Habs and with each year that passes, he won't be one anywhere else. I think he'll be overseas before too long; if not next season, then the one after that for sure.

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Under JM, vets had a lot more leash than the young guys. I can't recall mistakes that players made but I know they were not perfect. How do players get to become vets? They are played...thats what I am getting at. This team is not lacking for vets as it is: Gomez, Gionta, Cammy, Moen, Gill, Markov, Cole.

I just don't get the theory of these 3rd and 4th line marginal players putting the habs over the top. What the habs were missing last year was scoring, not depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.

I Disagree i dont thing we have any really good 3rd 4th line type guys last year but ryan white, we had a bunch of young guys that are more like 2nd line type players..we got to get bigger and stronger on the bottom 6..We need guys that hit hard and can drop the gloves when need be..

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i know Belle was not with Bulldogs and couldnt even stick with a depleted oiler d-core, i was insinuating that i have been out to lunch regarding d-prospects in past, not just last year.

But thanks for info, too bad for Carle, as he had good offensive #s in junior if i remember correctly.

Belle split time last year between Colorado and Edmonton, he was at no time affiliated with the Habs last season. Henry's NHL days are more than done, he's a 3rd pairing AHL guy now and that's it. St. Denis was certainly a stabilizer on their blueline last year. Carle by no means played bad down there, but he didn't exactly turn anyone's heads either. He won't be an NHL'er with the Habs and with each year that passes, he won't be one anywhere else. I think he'll be overseas before too long; if not next season, then the one after that for sure.

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i know Belle was not with Bulldogs and couldnt even stick with a depleted oiler d-core, i was insinuating that i have been out to lunch regarding d-prospects in past, not just last year.

But thanks for info, too bad for Carle, as he had good offensive #s in junior if i remember correctly.

He has had quality offensive numbers with Hamilton too. There's just that certain something that he's lacking and it's hard to quantify in words what that something is.

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I Disagree i dont thing we have any really good 3rd 4th line type guys last year but ryan white, we had a bunch of young guys that are more like 2nd line type players..we got to get bigger and stronger on the bottom 6..We need guys that hit hard and can drop the gloves when need be..

I would be cool with THOSE type of players, but the players suggested, Moore, Halpern, Lang, Bonk, these are not fighters. I was hoping the habs would go after Konopka, or a player like that.

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I Disagree i dont thing we have any really good 3rd 4th line type guys last year but ryan white, we had a bunch of young guys that are more like 2nd line type players..we got to get bigger and stronger on the bottom 6..We need guys that hit hard and can drop the gloves when need be..

That is a stereotypical view of what a 3rd/4th line player is though.

The defending Stanley Cup Champion Bruins were not full of low level fighters/grinders. Their 3rd line winger was Recchi or Ryder.

Outside of Thornton their bottom lines were filled with guys like Rich Peverley, Danielle Paille and Chris Kelly.

Do any of these guys hit hard or drop the gloves? Physical play is one factor, but so is puck possession, the ability to cause offensive zone pressure

defensive responsibility etc. Guys like Eller, Kostitsyn, Desharnais, Darche can be valuable 3rd/4th line guys. They don't need bangers to be successful.

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I would be cool with THOSE type of players, but the players suggested, Moore, Halpern, Lang, Bonk, these are not fighters. I was hoping the habs would go after Konopka, or a player like that.

Yeah they are not always the best players, but it sure is nice knowing that when the sh*t hits the fan that you got somebody that doesn't take any crap.

Its not just having players who fight either, Look at Spacek Lol... He was more than willing a few times only to humiliate himself and make the team look even more pitiful as far as toughness goes.

The Habs in the past have always had a tough guy, and I for one never want to see my team bullied ever again!!! That was horrible to watch.

Im not really into signing goons, as they tend to only fight other goons, but tough character guys like Bieksa, or Rupp would have been nice fits

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I have no idea who Gauthier is really targeting. Looking at the UFA list is depressing. I like Byron Bitz. Frolov is nice addition. But, beyond that I think Gauthier is going to go the trade route or promote. We have serious money left as far as the trade deadline kitty goes. :)

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Looking at the UFA list... did Mike Lundin seriously play over 20 minutes a night? Wow.

When you start thinking a guy that the Islanders didn't qualify at $550k might be a good addition, you might be looking at a terrible list of options. That player would be Jack Hillen, who I actually thought was decent whenever I saw him. Admittedly, I'm no expert on the guy. Still, 25 years old, tough to give up all hope for a guy like him. Might be worth an offer.

Not much out there for sure.

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Under JM, vets had a lot more leash than the young guys. I can't recall mistakes that players made but I know they were not perfect. How do players get to become vets? They are played...thats what I am getting at. This team is not lacking for vets as it is: Gomez, Gionta, Cammy, Moen, Gill, Markov, Cole.

I just don't get the theory of these 3rd and 4th line marginal players putting the habs over the top. What the habs were missing last year was scoring, not depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Yes but the team is not lacking youngsters either, eller, deharnais, white, subban, yemelin, gorges, pleky, pacioretty, Weber, kostitsyn.

You are right about missing scoring, but thats why gauthier when out and got eric cole, and add the fact that pacioretty is coming back from injury, along with markov, and cammy who (played an average 66 games a season in his two years, so hopefully we can get a full year out of him) and add the fact that eller and deharnais will only get better and you have a somewhat very potent offence. (note to also include pleks, kosty and gio to put up there usual numbers and hope that maybe gomez can put up a decent year).

And as for your theory of these 3rd and 4th marginal players putting the habs over the top. These are the guys who step up in the playoffs when your best players are attracting all the attention, look at the bruins who just won the cup,

(god help me if i ever say that again) they had rich peverly a fourth liner with (playoff numbers- 4 goals 8 assists for 12 points in 25GP), and chris kelly a third liner with (playoff numbers-5 goals and 8 assisits for 13 points in 25GP) not too bad for some 3rd and 4th line marginal players. If you want another example look at the 2010 blackhawks which had third liner at the time dave bolland the guy posted (playoff numbers- 8 goals 8 assists in 22GP) and john madden shut down forward specialist and great leader. Then you have the penguins with talbot, and rupp and the list goes on and on. so that is why it is very important for montreal to pick up a big third liner with some scoring ability, and maybe some one who can get under the skin of opposing players (but this one is a stretch). So in other words those marginal guys are the guys that can kill you when it counts most.

Edited by jmaac1

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Yes but the team is not lacking youngsters either, eller, deharnais, white, subban, yemelin, gorges, pleky, pacioretty, Weber, kostitsyn.

You are right about missing scoring, but thats why gauthier when out and got eric cole, and add the fact that pacioretty is coming back from injury, along with markov, and cammy who (played an average 66 games a season in his two years, so hopefully we can get a full year out of him) and add the fact that eller and deharnais will only get better and you have a somewhat very potent offence. (note to also include pleks, kosty and gio to put up there usual numbers and hope that maybe gomez can put up a decent year).

And as for your theory of these 3rd and 4th marginal players putting the habs over the top. These are the guys who step up in the playoffs when your best players are attracting all the attention, look at the bruins who just won the cup,

(god help me if i ever say that again) they had rich peverly a fourth liner with (playoff numbers- 4 goals 8 assists for 12 points in 25GP), and chris kelly a third liner with (playoff numbers-5 goals and 8 assisits for 13 points in 25GP) not too bad for some 3rd and 4th line marginal players. If you want another example look at the 2010 blackhawks which had third liner at the time dave bolland the guy posted (playoff numbers- 8 goals 8 assists in 22GP) and john madden shut down forward specialist and great leader. Then you have the penguins with talbot, and rupp and the list goes on and on. so that is why it is very important for montreal to pick up a big third liner with some scoring ability, and maybe some one who can get under the skin of opposing players (but this one is a stretch). So in other words those marginal guys are the guys that can kill you when it counts most.

The Canadiens are proof that rookies can make an impact on the 3rd and 4th lines and score big Cup/Playoff goals.

Claude Lemieux, Stephane Richer, John Leclair, Paul Dipietro, Gilbert Dionne and even Brisebois all had big moments during their rookie seasons. I seem to recall a rookie named Skrudland scoring 9 seconds into OT in a Cup Final game. Even guys like Dave Maley and Steve Rooney provided big moments for the Habs in 1986. Eric Desjardins was a solid contributor to the 1989 Cup run, as was Mike Keane and Brent Gilchrist. Solid young compliments to the veteran core. (That doesn't even bring up the sophomore's or young players like Odelein, Schneider, Ronan, Lebeau or Belanger who made contributions).

You are viewing things through the benefit of hindsight. Before the Hawks Cup run, Bolland was not viewed like he is now, nor were Peverley or Kelly 3 months ago. Who the hell could have predicted Paul Dipietro's 13 points in 17 games in 1993?

I don't understand the rejection of letting cheap young players make a difference and apprentice on the lower lines. Especially from CC who has witnessed the Canadiens use this type of process during their 15 year run from the early 80's to mid 90's to great success.

I can imagine the pre-1993 training camp having the same conversation.

"I don't feel comfortable with the Habs relying on depth guys like Sean Hill and Patrick Brisebois. What happens if Desjardins or Schneider get hurt? Then our starting D is Schneider, Brisebois, Daigneault, Dufresne, Haller and Hill. Do you feel comfortable moving forward with that? Also, winning a Cup requires strong third and fourth liners. How are the Habs going to win with these unreliable guys like John Leclair, Paul Dipietro, Gilbert Dionne, Benoit Brunet. I mean, Brunet is injury prone and is a scorer, we can't place him on a checking line. Let's not even mention the crappy backup we have in Racicot and how screwed we are if Roy goes down.

Do any of you guys feel comfortable with that lineup? We need to go out and sign some veterans to compete. We need proven guys on our bottom lines or we will lack the depth to do anything."

I am fine with the way this team is setup. They have a strong veteran leadership core and some elite prospects mixed in with some high upside 3rd and 4th liners. Looks like a 1993/1986 blueprint to me.

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Looks like a 1993/1986 blueprint to me.

Maybe that is why some do not feel comfortable with the line up, we are not in 1986/93.

I am ok with the lineup to _start_ the season, but once we hit the 20 and 40 games mark I expect PG to tune up the line for the playoffs.

I am disapointed Talbot was not signed, and I hope we get a player like Talbot or Marchand to contribute from our bottom 6. Hopefully that player will come from within the organization. I do not htink that type of player is available in the remaining FAs.

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Maybe that is why some do not feel comfortable with the line up, we are not in 1986/93.

I am ok with the lineup to _start_ the season, but once we hit the 20 and 40 games mark I expect PG to tune up the line for the playoffs.

I am disapointed Talbot was not signed, and I hope we get a player like Talbot or Marchand to contribute from our bottom 6. Hopefully that player will come from within the organization. I do not htink that type of player is available in the remaining FAs.

Me thinks you missed the point.

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The difference, and I don't want to get repetitive here, is Carbo and Gainey! Talbot, Madden, Paulsson... These shutdown guys are critical. I suppose Plek could be that guy. Bergeron was this year and is a Selke candidate as well as a second liner. I thought Pyatt was on his way to that. A pure shutdown forward. It's hard for your first line centre to be a goal scorer when he's also your shutdown guy. The only thing close to that in the bottom two lines is Moen. Eller showed glimpes of defensive prowess in the playoffs.

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The difference, and I don't want to get repetitive here, is Carbo and Gainey! Talbot, Madden, Paulsson... These shutdown guys are critical. I suppose Plek could be that guy. Bergeron was this year and is a Selke candidate as well as a second liner. I thought Pyatt was on his way to that. A pure shutdown forward. It's hard for your first line centre to be a goal scorer when he's also your shutdown guy. The only thing close to that in the bottom two lines is Moen. Eller showed glimpes of defensive prowess in the playoffs.

Yes, but pre-1993 nobody saw Brunet evolving into that type of player.

He had 231 points in 175 AHL games with Sherbrooke. He was viewed as a scorer, yet he pulled a Carbo and evolved into a solid shutdown player over his career. What all of us are projecting out is inconsistent with how we will view things in April, guaranteed because with young players it happens every season.

That wasn't Bergeron's expected trajectory at the beginning of his career either. Eller could easily become that guy, Plekanec is already a solid defensive center who can play tough minutes and still contribute offensively.

The types of players that people are stressing over are available at the deadline every season for an affordable price.

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I agree with you that if there is a need, it can easily be filled at the deadline. Plek as the main shutdown guy may not be ideal, but the depth of offense on this team looks very good when healthy and I'm sure that during a playoff run the third line and Gomez could easily produce offense.

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First of all we all expected that Avtsin was going to have to go through a learning curve considering its his first year playing in north america, second of all he just turned 20, so he's still very young and raw. But there is no doubt that this guy can become a force to be reckoned with, considering the fact that when he played in russia's league 1 junior divison he had 56 goals and 54 assists in 76GP, (yes he didn't really play against tough competition but those are really impressive numbers), and also to add that he was picked up by dynamo moscow the KHL's top team as a 19 year old who although didn't really produce (3 goals 6 assists for 9 points) he didn't play much either (30GP averaged 11.5 minutes a game) but he did manage to boast an impressive +6 on the team. So when you say he drowned last year it was "expected" and also to note that many experts projected this kid as a diamond in the rough kind of prospect with second or first line material so it says a lot. Now after a year of him getting his feet wet in Hamilton and also to (note played in only 58 games this year), I expect him to score at least 25 to 30 this year, and exploding on the scene. Also to point out palushaj is 5'11 -178 pounds, compared to avtsin who is 6'2 - 200 pounds so do we really need another small forward on the habs?

What I said was that I do not believe Avtsin will be playing next year in the NHL. Palushaj got called up last year and will be called up again, as he is young, only 21, and his points jumped from 33-57 from his first too second year. I think you can expect Palushaj too make another jump this year too a 30 goal scorer. Will Avtsin be better the Palushaj in the future... probably, but I would not trust to call him up next year. I would also like too stick out another fact that may play a part. How well a player makes the transition to a higher level of play.

If you look at these stats... He smoothly made the transition from High School too Uni leagues and from Uni to AHL and one can expect a smoother transition from AHL to NHL... Compared to Avtsin who as you have said has had trouble making the transition from Junior Russian too the KHL and from the KHL too AHL... He needs another full year in Hamilton. Players development gets hurt when they are brought up too early. This was shown time and time again with Bulldog players having great years moving up too play a game or two and coming down and not being the same player whatsoever after being shell shocked by the NHL. He also still is learning English which would make it even harder too move up too the NHL level.

2006-2007Des Moines BuccaneersUSHL5622456762

2007-2008Univ. of MichiganNCAA4310 34 44 22

2008-2009Univ. of MichiganNCAA39 13 37 50 26

2009-2010Peoria RivermenAHL44 5 17 22 22

Hamilton BulldogsAHL18 3 7 10 8

Edited by bbp

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What I said was that I do not believe Avtsin will be playing next year in the NHL. Palushaj got called up last year and will be called up again, as he is young, only 21, and his points jumped from 33-57 from his first too second year. I think you can expect Palushaj too make another jump this year too a 30 goal scorer. Will Avtsin be better the Palushaj in the future... probably, but I would not trust to call him up next year. I would also like too stick out another fact that may play a part. How well a player makes the transition to a higher level of play.

If you look at these stats... He smoothly made the transition from High School too Uni leagues and from Uni to AHL and one can expect a smoother transition from AHL to NHL... Compared to Avtsin who as you have said has had trouble making the transition from Junior Russian too the KHL and from the KHL too AHL... He needs another full year in Hamilton. Players development gets hurt when they are brought up too early. This was shown time and time again with Bulldog players having great years moving up too play a game or two and coming down and not being the same player whatsoever after being shell shocked by the NHL. He also still is learning English which would make it even harder too move up too the NHL level.

2006-2007Des Moines BuccaneersUSHL5622456762 2007-2008Univ. of MichiganNCAA4310344422

2008-2009Univ. of MichiganNCAA3913375026

2009-2010Peoria RivermenAHL445172222 Hamilton Bulldogs

AHL1837108

Look I understand what your saying, but palushaj will not make the roster this year, like you said he will probably be the first to call up if we have an injury to one of our wingers. I understand this plain and simple. But I just don't see this kid being a regular in the habs lineup this year or in the future as well considering there is a lot of longterm commitment to our current players now and the fact that we have better prospects (kristo and leblanc that could be ready after this year) than palushaj. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised to see this kid being traded in the future, he could fetch a decent return. But I could be wrong and he might be a regular someday.

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The difference, and I don't want to get repetitive here, is Carbo and Gainey! Talbot, Madden, Paulsson... These shutdown guys are critical. I suppose Plek could be that guy. Bergeron was this year and is a Selke candidate as well as a second liner. I thought Pyatt was on his way to that. A pure shutdown forward. It's hard for your first line centre to be a goal scorer when he's also your shutdown guy. The only thing close to that in the bottom two lines is Moen. Eller showed glimpes of defensive prowess in the playoffs.

Moen used to be considered to be one of those guys too. Those bottom six specialists mostly have phony reputations. I really doubt that Jeff Halpern is significantly worse than Talbot, Madden, and Pahlsson. For the most part they are ordinary grinders that won a Cup. The depth players on contending teams are always glorified.

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Palushaj has a future with the Habs. Next year there are two UFA's at RW: Andrei Kostitsyn and Travis Moen. The Habs rarely re-up their marginal UFA's... Andrei has a shot at being re-signed but I doubt Moen will be re-upped. Palushaj seems like a shoe in for that open spot at this point.

After one or two years of NHL growth, all of a sudden Gionta and Cammalleri are UFA's as well. Who knows how players like Palushaj will compare to them at that point.

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