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Commandant

#6: Montreal Canadiens @ Pittsburgh Penguins, 7:00PM

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It's not just a loss, it's just not a brutal loss, it's a loss against a totally depleted team! And the Habs were outshot, outhit, dominated on the faceoff circle, failed on 4 PP, got 2 roughing/boarding penalties from... our two 5'7 diminutive!! Shameful and pathetic.

That totally depleted team has won 4 other games this year already, it's not like this was their first win of the season. I don't think the coaches/fans of the other teams that lost would say it's shameful and pathetic losing to a team with injuries, it happens. (Though the effort wasn't the greatest for most of the game, save for most of the first and the last few minutes of the 3rd, I'll give you that.) Yes, their offence isn't intact (their defence largely is though) but they do just enough to win. Kinda reminds me of the Habs in years past, finding ways to win even if it's not pretty while being shorthanded.

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That totally depleted team has won 4 other games this year already, it's not like this was their first win of the season. I don't think the coaches/fans of the other teams that lost would say it's shameful and pathetic losing to a team with injuries, it happens. (Though the effort wasn't the greatest for most of the game, save for most of the first and the last few minutes of the 3rd, I'll give you that.) Yes, their offence isn't intact (their defence largely is though) but they do just enough to win. Kinda reminds me of the Habs in years past, finding ways to win even if it's not pretty while being shorthanded.

That's the point, they beat us without Crosby, Malkin and Letang, but they have a coach who gets most out of what he has.

We lose without Markov, Campoli and the blessing of not having Spacek and most people make excuses for JM (tonight being an exception).

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firstly,,,, the line juggling started before gomez went down! it had nothing to do with injuries early just constant over coaching. please......

he had cammalleri on the 4th and killing penalties... i bet gomez isnt even hurt and just b$&*hed out in the game cause he was pissed at martin.... i cant see how any of these players want to be playing for this joker anymore!!

how hard is it to assemble lines and keep them together for 5-10 games. he cant even maintain a line up for 3 periods especially breaking up a line that's looked so damn good? let them play through the hard times as well as the good! this guy changes lines by periods and i bet these players are just as sick of it as me!

the problem is cunneyworth, perrin and jacques martin! none of these guys are habs through and threw!!! they dont bleed our colours and they are not winners!!!! they lack that twinkle in there eye that true champions possess!

does anyone know when the last time any of these 3 guys won anything close to a championship?

we have how many allumni habs? true champions that fought for the C on our chest? yet we have the ottawa senators coaching trio??

muller, robinson and roy would be wonderful right now

cause logically this team should of lined up like this to start and JM should of said:

Kos-DD-Pac (you guys are playing like our top line! I'll give you the minutes get me the goals boys.. i trust you)

Ell-Ple-Cam (cammi's back! get open, feed him the puck, dont take a penalty)

gio-gom-cole (C&G go to the net!!! gomez feed them the puck, dont take a penalty and skate!!)

moen-enq-dar(bring it boys! throw the body, crash the net, dont take a penalty)

after gomez went down logic would of been to insert eller... promote moen over darche and rotate a double shift of our wingers on the 4th line while maintaining the other 3 lines. when enquivst also went down for that short period he should of just rolled 3 lines and sat darche or rotated darche with moen and scrapped the fourth line!

please dont give me the martin brings result b.s cause you cant ignore what he's doing!

sorry for the rant!!

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i wont even talk about how the entire nhl actually used preseason games to prepare for the season and we had desimone, woywitka, and gallagher, tinordi, and company playing right till the final 2 games of the year!

i look at a team like the dreaded leafs who actually played each preseason game with 65% of there team and won preseason games and r 4-1-1 now... we ran a bulldog preseason! JM had cole dressing for games with gomez during the preseason and hasnt used them on a line once!! check it out and you'll see! its no wonder price hasnt been focused and are team hasnt been prepared!

our PP is abysmal... because perrin and cunneyworth are running it! like WTF was plex doing back on the point again! cammalerri should be on the half boards waiting for the one timer! plex should be behind the net ready to feed the puck and keep possession, kosty on the other half boards for the love of GOD! put to "DEFENDERS" on the point (lefty's together righties together!) 1 is a QB the other should have his stick cocked for a slapper or a pass!!

sorry for this 2nd rant!

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We're 1-4-1. (Note that, because although the SO loss makes it *feel* like we're 1-5, we're not). That is hardly an insurmountable deficit - yet. All we need to do is win 3 games and we're at .500.

What has happened, though, is that the rope is running out. You can't just sit around and watch the team go 1-6-1 or 2-8-1, something like that. As Jonathan Rebelo points out in his insightful write-up on the main page, that leaves the team with zero room for any mid-season slump. Not a tenable position.

History shows us that this is a very dangerous place. In 1996, we started 0-5 after missing the playoffs in the previous, strike-truncated season. Two points to note. One is that Serge Savard pulled the trigger on the cataclysmic Leclair deal in an attempt to upgrade the offence and make the playoffs in 1995. The other, much more dramatic lesson is what happened after the 0-5 start. It was the beginning of the fire-bombing of the franchise as those jabbering bonobos Reggie Haircut and Mario Blueberry were brought in and destroyed the very solid foundation Savard had in place.

Be careful what you wish for.

That being said, if it goes on something will have to give...if it's JM, I think that's too bad, but so be it. Replacements? Well, it's a wild idea, but I think if we went and pulled Muller back in we might get a pass from the media on the language thing at least for a while. And Muller knows the players and the systems so his own adjustment would not be massive in those terms. You'd better surround him with accomplished (francophone) assistants, though.

There's other oddball options out there, besides Hartley or whoever. For instance, I always loathed Therrien, but surely he has learned a great deal from his days in Pittsburgh and Montreal? Are there any French Canadian assistant coaches out there we could poach? André Savard? :lol: Carbo???? Just spitballing. :nuts:

EDIT: BTW, the PP is abysmal for one reason - it doesn't have Wisniewski. And anyone who derided Wiz as one-dimensional or 'not a top-4 defenceman' and not someone we should have tried to re-sign, ought to think about that.

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2nd unit should be gio on the left boards for kosty but playing similar to cammi on the 1st unit.. gomez in for plex... pacioretty in cammi's spot but should be possessing the puck like kosty would and 2 def manning the point

PK plays the full 2 minutes as markov would but doesnt rush the puck end to end but actually makes a pass to get it in the zone and diaz and weber split... please no more rushing or dumping it in to nobody!

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Awful, awful game tonight.... Pens dominated.

Tonight, in a road game... we finally saw the effect of being forced to play all those defencemen is. The Habs can hide a rookie pairing in a home game with last change. Tonight, on the road, they couldn't. We desperately need some experienced D back in the lineup. You just cant be running three guys who combine for ~50 games of experience.

The forward lines.... thats what happens when 2 guys get hurt, yeah they were all messed up, but shit happened because of the injuries.

That said, even if your line is screwed up and you have no offensive chemistry, its no excuse to not backcheck and miss assignments like the forwards did.

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i dont want gauthier out!!! nor do i want jaques martin out!

however, upon further review of JM"s credentials.

a) as a coach/ GM in his entire career he has 1 championship!!! a memorial cup in 1986!!! one!!!

b) he's never played in the NHL

c) he has an all-time losing record (47%) win percentage

d) coached the blues, nordiques (then COL for a part season prior to 96 cup), florida and now montreal

trust me i haven't lost composure i just know in the eastern conference getting 3 of a possible 12 points to start the season is really bad! we need to win 3 in a row starting saturday!!! the bleeding has to stop!

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Awful, awful game tonight.... Pens dominated.

Tonight, in a road game... we finally saw the effect of being forced to play all those defencemen is. The Habs can hide a rookie pairing in a home game with last change. Tonight, on the road, they couldn't. We desperately need some experienced D back in the lineup. You just cant be running three guys who combine for ~50 games of experience.

The forward lines.... thats what happens when 2 guys get hurt, yeah they were all messed up, but shit happened because of the injuries.

That said, even if your line is screwed up and you have no offensive chemistry, its no excuse to not backcheck and miss assignments like the forwards did.

he started the game with line changes... injuries came after the fact... martin essentially mess up what he should of been building on over 2 games against col and buffalo.

sorry for flooding the thread!

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he started the game with line changes... injuries came after the fact... martin essentially mess up what he should of been building on over 2 games against col and buffalo.

sorry for flooding the thread!

He started the game with intact lines. Cammy on the fourth, but three lines.

Gomez only played 3 shifts, and then he was out. By the 8:00 mark of the first we were forced to juggle. And that included a PK which screws up the lines for one rotation or so every time anyways... (ie cause our PK pairs aren't always linemates... see DD and Moen.)

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I just watched mcnonahg score the game winner tonight and the 2 nd goal in the vancouver game. He is really looking good. How in the heck did sather work him into the deal? I can't believe it! As for the season so far? This one was a stinker. I predict that the leafs and habs will come in 8th and 9th this year. Not so confident abiut the order.

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It's nice to see our big free agent signing in the offseason getting a nice 13:47 worth of ice time. Probably would've been better off using the money we spent on Cole and Campoli to just keep Wisniewski and Halpern.

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Awful, awful game tonight.... Pens dominated.

Tonight, in a road game... we finally saw the effect of being forced to play all those defencemen is. The Habs can hide a rookie pairing in a home game with last change. Tonight, on the road, they couldn't. We desperately need some experienced D back in the lineup. You just cant be running three guys who combine for ~50 games of experience.

The forward lines.... thats what happens when 2 guys get hurt, yeah they were all messed up, but shit happened because of the injuries.

That said, even if your line is screwed up and you have no offensive chemistry, its no excuse to not backcheck and miss assignments like the forwards did.

The penguins were missing better players then we were. The problem we have is the Penguins have Bylsma and we have the penguin!

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The penguins were missing better players then we were. The problem we have is the Penguins have Bylsma and we have the penguin!

The issue wasn't making excuses for the injuries.... What i was responding to was all the complaints of OMG... Why did JM break up the Pac - DD - AK46 line? It was our only good line. And "how come JM keeps changing the lines, how can they get chemistry if they don't stay together for two shifts"

Gomez went down early in the first and didn't come back. Patches spent most of the first in the dressing room. Engqvist spent most of the 2nd in the dressing room.

When you have 10 forwards on your bench for most of the night... its natural that the line combos won't stay together, and you'll see some pretty strange combos out there... rotating that 10th guy is the only way to keep everyone fresh.

That was what I was saying.

We didn't lose because of injuries.... thats not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying don't blame the coach for shuffling a lineup that was missing two bodies for most of the game.

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The issue wasn't making excuses for the injuries.... What i was responding to was all the complaints of OMG... Why did JM break up the Pac - DD - AK46 line? It was our only good line. And "how come JM keeps changing the lines, how can they get chemistry if they don't stay together for two shifts"

Gomez went down early in the first and didn't come back. Patches spent most of the first in the dressing room. Engqvist spent most of the 2nd in the dressing room.

When you have 10 forwards on your bench for most of the night... its natural that the line combos won't stay together, and you'll see some pretty strange combos out there... rotating that 10th guy is the only way to keep everyone fresh.

That was what I was saying.

We didn't lose because of injuries.... thats not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying don't blame the coach for shuffling a lineup that was missing two bodies for most of the game.

I'd buy that if JM didn't do reshuffle the deck EVERY friggin game. THis has been going on since he's been here. Every game, I wait, hope and pray that we won't see Moen or Darche moved up to the top 6 or even the top 9 and definatley not on the PP. Yet I keep seeing AK46 sitting on the bench and two grunts playing. Why is that Gomez can take a stupid penalty every game and still get his ice time, yet when AK46 leads the team in hits and takes a penalty his ass is nailed to the bench.

Why do we have pleks on the point?? Why isn't Subban playing the full two minutes on the PP with either Diaz or Weber??? These are coaching decisions. We have one of the fastest teams (albiet smaller) in the league, yet the coach usually has them playing a style suited for the old, slow, big, calgary flames that Darryl Sutter built.

JM's success revolves around the goalie standing on his head, the team sitting back and blocking as many shots as the goalie faces and scoring 1 or two goals a game to win. If the other goalie is better then ours, we lose.

So what if we went to the final 4 with him, big friggin deal. The pens went to the finals with Therrian and dumped his sorry ass, becuase they wanted to WIN the friggin cup, not just say they made it to the dance. JM is a loser. Always has been a loser and always will be a loser. He couldn't win with a stacked Ottawa team and he won't win anything here. Last year people kept on going on and on about his experience and his career wins. Big friggin deal, how many career losses does he have???

The habs had a chance to keep a truly innovative french coach and the let him go, because they went to the final 4 with the penguin. Now they NEED to say screw the french media, screw RDS and hire a coach that can get the most out of this team and stop being an affirmative action program for quebecers. Ken Dryden got it right back over 30 years ago, when he said the team will need to make a decision on whether they want to win or be french. The french thing is NOT working. Hire the best damn available coach. I want to win!!

I don't want this to turn into a language/political debate, but how well did the whole separtist movement go for Quebec with most corporations that were headquartered in Montreal moving to Toronto???? Yet now RDS/French media would probably rather have the habs lose with 20 french players, a french coach and GM, then win with english, swedish, Fins and american players or management.

It's too bad the Molsons don't have any balls, otherwise, we are 2-3 players and a coach away from having a pretty solid team that can make a serious run for Lord Stanley's mug.

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The only thing that is really, really pissing me off so far is the use of Plex on the point during PP. What a waste of an amazing down low play maker.

The use of Cole is a bit of a frustration too. We are paying a lot of $ for a guy playing third line minutes.

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A) vis-a-vis McDonaugh. We lost that trade, as is becoming quite evident. Sometimes you roll the dice and lose. What few are mentioning is that, in the Halak-Eller trade, things are starting to look more and more like we could potentially come out on top. Number one issue sports fans have? Using stats or making examples which illustrate only one side of the story. ;-)

B) anyone else get the feeling that losing Muller was the biggest deal that happened with Montreal this summer?

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The GM took a risk on resigning markov over Wiz, who knows how it'll turn out. I sometimes feel like JM is trying to be TOO smart, instead of a typical top 6 forwards, bottom grind/smash line and a defensive 3rd line, he's trying to reinvent the wheel with his so called top 9. Sometimes you just have to put all your eggs in one basket.

This is going to sound like a broken record, but I don't see why this team cannot score, they have the talent, but you can tell when it's going to be a good game or not by the first 5 minutes. If the passes are tape to tape the wingers are flying, but when it's not they are just bad. I cringe everytime I see an opposing team cut to the inside of our D-men and get a great scoring chance. Then I watch our boys always ALWAYS go to the out side and shoot a weak shot. Is it a mental thing? Are our forwards afraid to go to the dirty areas? Are they afraid of taking a hit?

The PP was so good last year because of the d-men at the point, this year the habs barely use them, they are so predictable trying that damn down low pass to cross-crease pass EVERY DAMN TIME.The habs habe great shooters at the point, remember last year when Wiz would fire that sharp pass to PK and he'd wire it into the net? That's whats hurting the PP, by the time the pass gets to the point the opposing D-men are in position to block.

I am by no means any kind of hockey genius. I just want to echo the sentiment of others that the coaching staff hurt the habs short-term in the preseason by playing so many AHL/CHL players, and not re-building chemistry.

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A) vis-a-vis McDonaugh. We lost that trade, as is becoming quite evident. Sometimes you roll the dice and lose. What few are mentioning is that, in the Halak-Eller trade, things are starting to look more and more like we could potentially come out on top. Number one issue sports fans have? Using stats or making examples which illustrate only one side of the story. ;-)

B) anyone else get the feeling that losing Muller was the biggest deal that happened with Montreal this summer?

I am wondering if loosing Muller has more to do with his coaching style than the man. Muller 'seemed' to be a teaching coach rather than a policeman type coach. My perception of JM is that of a policeman type.

Fire JM and hire captain Kirk and we will find out!

Muller as head coach, Roy as assistant...Would be interesting.

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Martin can certainly be criticized for not preparing the team in preseason, and if forwards are not doing their jobs defensively that is as definitive an indictment of a coach as exists in my book. The whole point of a coach like JM is that the team plays disciplined, structured defence. Without that, JM has no reason to be here.

But guys: the whole 'he keeps changing line combos' thing doesn't wash. Most NHL coaches do that whenever the team gets into trouble. You'll hear exactly the same griping in Vancouver, for instance ('Vigneault won't leave the lines alone,' yada yada). I disagree with it, because I think it's symptomatic of an ongoing NHL disease, which is overcoaching. But the point is that most coaches do it, Carbo did it, and Martin's replacement will most likely do it. Don't base your case against JM on that.

I wonder about Cole, though. Two years ago there was a running battle in the dressing room between Gill and his supporters, who wanted to buy 100% into JM's system and play a defence-oriented game, and Gomez, who wanted a run-and-gun thing. Gill won and the team has had success as a result. But if Eric Cole, a prestigious veteran, has added his voice to the anti-Jacques sentiment, in a room full of impressionable rookies, it might be a destabilizing factor, contributing to the forwards' seeming disregard of his defensive strictures. Could be a bad fit, in terms of team/coach relations. Just a thought.

EDIT: shit, I forgot about Roy as a coach!! I think it'll be a disaster, but can you imagine - ?? Anyway, I'd go with Muller first.

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I don't think I can handle losing 2 games to the Leafs in a month; hell in just over 2 weeks............... :mellow:

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Why do we have pleks on the point?? Why isn't Subban playing the full two minutes on the PP with either Diaz or Weber??? These are coaching decisions. We have one of the fastest teams (albiet smaller) in the league, yet the coach usually has them playing a style suited for the old, slow, big, calgary flames that Darryl Sutter built.

Plekanec has been off the point for a few games now (he'd drop back when Subban went low though to cover) and Subban was playing most of, if not all the powerplays later in the game. Same for Weber, who led the team in PP TOI.

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line combos are a major major factor with this team whether it be PK , PP or 5 on 5... martin is clueless to developing lines, his system of linear hockey is the simplest of all systems in the NHL and its the least exhausting to play! so whats the problem! this system is taught at the minor league level of back checking forwards, collapsing to the net and have your wingers on the high boards to chip the puck out we were playing this system when i was a peewee...

-JM's system cannot and will not work with a struggling goalie.... and guys Carey Price is fighting the puck right now!

- yesterday Pacioretty missed maybe 1 shift if that... he took 24 shifts in the game.. he did not miss the most of any period!

- an article on Kostitsyn comes out on tsn crediting him with strong play so far... JM responds to it by giving AK 19 shifts good for the 4th lowest on the team enquivst (9) darche(14) COLE(18) AK (19). that's good coaching? 37 shifts between the 2 and 36 for darche and moen??

- gomez played 4 shifts before going down... then we moved eller to center so TOI and shifts should of increased for our scoring wingers and DD, plex and eller.

Cole has a chance to log heavy minutes and Martin can lean on Kosty more but he gives those minutes to moen and darche

JM is not a career winner as stated in my previous post and last nights handling of his assets proved it more.

pacioretty-DD-kostitsyn should of all played close to 24 shifts and +20 minutes together none on the PK (5 PP minutes and 15+ even strength)

we played 12 minutes on the PK 10 min on the PP

38min even strength

instead of moen taking 22 shifts and darche 14 (36) both should of split time on the 3rd line and the 4th line should of been scratched during enquivst absence its that simple... when enquivst returned we should of continued the 4th line with our scoring forwards (gio, pacio, cole, kosty) all picking up extra shifts to make up the minutes! not a constant juggling act which resulted in zero stability no chemistry and a horrible product on ice!

if andrei markov doesnt return soon to save our PP and season for that matter JM will be out and all us arm chair coaches and GM's will have our pitch forks ready for the next guy!!

i wont complain anymore because it is doing none of us any good. we need to concentrate on the leafs who havent been playing to well over the last 3 games. they should have easily walked away with 0 of 6 pts but managed 3. we on the other hand should of had 4 of 6 but managed 1!

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Plekanec has been off the point for a few games now (he'd drop back when Subban went low though to cover) and Subban was playing most of, if not all the powerplays later in the game. Same for Weber, who led the team in PP TOI.

And now Plekanec is back on the point in practice today...so much for my statement.

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No resilience out of these guys...the team comes out flying, then if things don't go their way (like the Neal goal last night) it's all over. I look at the team this year, the way they've come out after the first and second periods and I can't help but think JM has lost the room. It's obvious the players don't like the line juggling...Cole is unhappy...no cohesion between the forwards and d whatsoever...I don't think a firing is in order now, but if this team flounders into December I think we'll see a whole regime change. This is not a good start to the year. It is early, but right now, even as a life-long fan, I can't find one thing to like about this group.

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