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What to do with Kostitsyn


hab29RETIRED

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Last year, if they WOULD HAVE scored in game seven in the Bruins series, they would have won the series.

Juse sayin'. ;-)

Agreed.

We are a playoff team, we won't miss the playoffs. Half our d has been injured, Price had a slowish start and our guys just haven't had a chance to be a unit.

We will heat up! It is still early!

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I'm not sure that we will make the playoffs. That's NOT because of Martin or Gomez or Cammalleri or other boogeymen, but because of the structural weakness created by the departues of Wisnieweski and Hamrlik, and the long-term injuries to their replacements, Markov and Campoli. This seems glaringly obvious to me. I don't know why fans feel compelled to draw all sort of much more comprehensive inferences.

The bizarre thing about habs29's post was that it places more emphasis on bad things that almost happened than good things that actually did happen. What's more important? That Cammy is a playoff superstar, or that the team *almost* didn't make the playoffs two years ago? By this logic, the 1979 Habs were frauds because they *almost* lost to Boston in the semi-finals and Guy Lafleur was a bum because he *almost* didn't score the famous game-tying goal. Meanwhile, he showers love on Andrei Kostitsyn, a useful player who has a track record of erratic regular seasons AND impotent playoffs.

I mean, Habs29 is a valuable contributor around here...but that's kinda strange.

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I'm not sure that we will make the playoffs. That's NOT because of Martin or Gomez or Cammalleri or other boogeymen, but because of the structural weakness created by the departues of Wisnieweski and Hamrlik, and the long-term injuries to their replacements, Markov and Campoli. This seems glaringly obvious to me. I don't know why fans feel compelled to draw all sort of much more comprehensive inferences.

I agree that letting Hamrlik walk was a big mistake. It seems that nobody appreciated the things he did while he was here, and how often it was him who ate up alot of valuable minutes when others were injured. I desperately wanted the Hammer back instead of one-dimensional-Gill but here we are. And about the Wiz, he was merely brought in as a replacement for Markov, a band-aid sort of speak. I don't believe he was in the long term plans at any point with management. I'm sure if he were to be available at a decent price, but surely they knew he would fetch far more than his worth on the open market.

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I agree that letting Hamrlik walk was a big mistake. It seems that nobody appreciated the things he did while he was here, and how often it was him who ate up alot of valuable minutes when others were injured. I desperately wanted the Hammer back instead of one-dimensional-Gill but here we are. And about the Wiz, he was merely brought in as a replacement for Markov, a band-aid sort of speak. I don't believe he was in the long term plans at any point with management. I'm sure if he were to be available at a decent price, but surely they knew he would fetch far more than his worth on the open market.

I wasn't saying we SHOULD have signed Wiz (though I wish we had at least tried) - just pointing out that the team is losing primarily because its replacements for these key elements have been injured. With Markov and Campoli out, we've basically replaced two key guys with raw rookies. This is why our PP sucks, and it's that suckage that is making the difference between winning and losing IMHO.

As for Hammer, I'm with you. People will argue that we couldn't sign him to two years at 3.5 because of the need to re-up Price and Subban, and maybe they're right, but I have trouble believing that $3.5 mil would have made all the difference, especially considering that Spacek will be off the books and there's always the possibility of chucking Gomez, Moen or other contracts. I think you're right - the Habs under-estimated Hammer's value, partly because they were insufficiently cautious about Markov's knee.

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I am not sure why Campoli's injury is even mentioned, he was unwanted by every other team wasnt he and was not a big time player in his career was he? Which d-man would you have sit, Diaz, Weber, Yemelin are all playing fine and even my favourite whipping boy Spacek has been doing fine since his return.

Campoli is depth only isnt he? And the back end is not doing badly at all, just need the scorers to pick it up, which is due and Cammalleri is very streaky and there are only so many posts he can hit before he buries a few and same as Cole and Gionta.

I think the PP stunk at start of last year didnt it and i think it and the team will end up fine again this year.

Old lead foot Hamrlik was valuable and steady, but he aint getting quicker nor younger and that showed in past 2 playoffs, I hope he does well witth Caps, but i agree with Gauthier in not offering a 2 year deal.

And i love the quickness the new d-men bring to the table and i would love to know why Yemelin does not see much ice or is in the press box? He is about the only physical hitting d-men they have, Subban and Gill do a bit of hitting but that aint their game.

I would say the Habs will have a crowded back end when Markov and Campoli get back wont they, but will create some great competition i suppose.

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I wasn't saying we SHOULD have signed Wiz (though I wish we had at least tried) - just pointing out that the team is losing primarily because its replacements for these key elements have been injured. With Markov

and Campoli out, we've basically replaced two key guys with raw rookies. This is why our PP sucks, and it's that suckage that is making the difference between winning and losing IMHO.

As for Hammer, I'm with you. People will argue that we couldn't sign him

two years at 3.5 because of the need to re-up Price and Subban, and maybe they're right, but I have trouble believing that $3.5 mil would have made all the difference, especially considering that Spacek will be off the books and there's always the possibility of chucking Gomez, Moen or other contracts. I think you're right - the Habs under-estimated Hammer's value,

partly because they were insufficiently cautious about Markov's knee.

The defense had to get faster long term. I wanted Hammer or Gill, but not both. Long term, I was not a fan of signing Wiz. There is definitely a whole there, but for the last two years it has been painful watching one of Gorges, Hammer, Spacek, or Gill lose a race for the puck. It is dificult to play a forecheck when your D can't skate. I was hoping Hammer would be signed over Gill, but you have to think that if the guy Gautier signed as a fill in (Campoli) didn't get injured on the first game, the PP and defense would have looked better.

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I'm not sure that we will make the playoffs. That's NOT because of Martin or Gomez or Cammalleri or other boogeymen, but because of the structural weakness created by the departues of Wisnieweski and Hamrlik, and the long-term injuries to their replacements, Markov and Campoli. This seems glaringly obvious to me. I don't know why fans feel compelled to draw all sort of much more comprehensive inferences.

The bizarre thing about habs29's post was that it places more emphasis on bad things that almost happened than good things that actually did happen. What's more important? That Cammy is a playoff superstar, or that the team *almost* didn't make the playoffs two years ago? By this logic, the 1979 Habs were frauds because they *almost* lost to Boston in the semi-finals and Guy Lafleur was a bum because he *almost* didn't score the famous game-tying goal. Meanwhile, he showers love on Andrei Kostitsyn, a useful player who has a track record of erratic regular seasons AND impotent playoffs.

I mean, Habs29 is a valuable contributor around here...but that's kinda strange.

Guy Lafleur showed up in the regular season and the playoffs and showed up EVERY DAMN night, even though he was on a team that he could have floated through the regular season. Cammy has been soft and invisible for long stretches. We are a bubble team. We can't have guys who are supposed to be our top guys be missing for long stretches of the regular season. On the one hand you always are criticizing AK46 because he is hot and cold. yet, give Cammy a free pass because he had two good playoffs. Talk to the flames fans. Cammy was INVISIBLE in the playoffs the year he scored 39 goals during the regular season.

My point regarding Cammy is that I really don't give a damn what he MIGHT do in this year's playoffs, if we don't make the damn playoffs. I'm not willing to give him a free pass for being paid $6M for not even scoring 30 goals.

Just like I was dead set against the Gomez trade for him making $7.2M when he had put up 50 some points for the Rangers. You on the other hand were a huge supporter of that trade. How did that great deal turn out???

As for showering love on Ak46, I don't think he has ever got a fair shake in Montreal. His first playoffs he put up 8 points. In his 2nd playoffs, along with the REST of the team, he did nothing, but who did score in that sweep series???? The year the habs went to the final 4, he put up 8 points. Gomez who you seemed to have a love affair with until last year got 12. Four more points, despite getting a lot more ice time and despite him being a playoff grizzled veteran and cup winner. Big friggin deal.

My point regarding AK46 is that he has NEVER been given as much rope as Gomez, Cammy, Gionta when they aren't producing. Hell he isn't even given as much slack as Moen and Darche - despite the fact that Moen sucked lemons last year.

Given he and Sk74 were hung by the french media before even all the facts came out on the "Big scandal that would shake and shame the montreal canadian's foundations" word's by an uneducated jerk like Demers, who ended up becoming a Senator despite such a ignorant attitude (that's the type of guy I'd want sitting on the Canadian Senate), it's no big surprise he struggled.

Last year, whenever anyoe struggled, Ak46 was stuck with them, yet when Ak46 struggled, Martin nailed his ass to the bench.

When we lose him for nothing and he does go ont to score 35 goals elsewhere, i'm sure you will be sitting hear talking about him the way you cry about Ribeiro - a guy who really was a dressing room cancer.

As far as letting Hamrlik go, did you really want a defence of Hamrlik, Gill, Gorges and Spacek again??? All four of them would make great #5 or #6 dman, and can be servicable #4 Dman. So you are saying you would have wanted 4 dman back who are really suited to being #5 or #6 Dman. Hamrlik was good for stretches, but at his age, he can't be counted on being a top 3 dman. I wouldn't have been opposed to bringing back Hamrlik, if we had let Gill go, or were able to trade Spacek. But there is no way in hell I would have wanted all three back.

What we needed was to trade or sign a true #3/#4 dman - preferably a guy with Gill's size but with Gorges heart and willingness to get fiesty. Markov and Subban were expected to be #1 and #2. Then we have a bunch of kids who should be given the chance to be #5 or #6 initially until they can prove they are 2nd pairing Dman. Instead PG, started the year with Gill, Spacek, Weber, Diaz, Emelin and Campoli - all #5 and #6 dman. I think Diaz, Weber and Emelin can move up the dept chart once they get experience and prove themselves and Gorges can play the #4 role at times and is very effective on the PK, but PG did not bring in a true #3 dman to lead the second pairing.

I liked the Campoli signing, because of the dollars he was signed for, but I'm not much of a campoli fan. As i've said he just adds to our long list of bottom pairing dmen. I would have preferred that PG showed some balls and signed a guy like Cam Barker who has more upside physically. The habs only picked up one physical dman and Martin's had him sitting in the press box for most of the year. The irony is that the Dman the habs could use right now is Mcdonagh - the guy I was most vocal about losing when the idiotic Gomez deal was made and you shrugged off at the time.

As far as Wiz goes, I said 1 month after the habs picked him up that the Habs should sign him ASAP, just as I had said into Pleks first year, that they should sign him ASAP and not wait until the off season. I think if the habs had tried, they probably could have got both for around $4.5M. But no, the management has this idiotic policy of not negotiating during the regular season. Other teams are able to lock up their top guys during the season for a lot less money then they would make as UFA's. but the habs under Gainey and PG, have followed this idiotic policy of waiting when the players have all of the leverage in the off season. As far as signing Wiz over Markov, that is a gamble I would have made without even blinking. Wiz had has had 3 similar operations as Markov. He looks no worse for wear. But there is no friggin way i would have given him $5.5M for 5 years. Having said that I think the habs should have been able to get Markov for under his current salary, given they did offer him 3 years. If they were going to give him $5.75M, it should have been a 1 year deal. I'd even have given him a 5 year deal if he signed for $5M or under.

I still think Markov will come back, his surgery is nothing worse then others have come back for and it is a calculated gamble worth taking. At worst, he is done and we pay his salary, but don't take the cap hit. Wiz on the other hand is not a $5.5M player. His ontract represents the stupidity of GM's who everytime the collective bargaining agreement comes up for renewal, owners will cry poor to save themselves from their own stupidity in giving ridiculous contracts and tier 1 money to tier 2 players.

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Wow, 29 and CC, you have made this Habs fan's day. Here I am traveling with family in Thailand taking advantage of a rare moment to check internet on my own and see what's being said after two more losses. And you lead me away from "tank the season!" hysteria to the oasis of thoughtful CH discussion that is the Habsworld forums. Thank you and the other participants in this thread.

OK, my 5 Baht:

1) I mostly agree about AK, as do most on this most reasonable of forums. 29 is right that he doesn't a fair shake in the media or with many fans, and JM seems to be a bit of a xenophobe in the way that he treats him. But The CC speaks for me on this one: "I don't subscribe to the theory that he is a victim of the talent-sapping coaching of JM. In fact he is a model of consistency - exactly the same player he was under the freewheeling, unstructured coach Carbo: a 25-goal, 25-assist guy with some physical edge prone to looooong bouts of offensive torpor. I agree that his relatively robust physical game adds an element the Habs need and would have no problem with re-signing him at a manageable rate. If we don't, I'm not gonna rend my garment about it." Especially that last part about his garment - lol.

2) Wiz was a no go for several reasons - you couldn't judge him early enough to lock him up and he probably wouldn't have signed at low value given how it looked things were shaping up for him point-wise. More importantly, a choice had to be made between two of The Wiz, Markov and Subban. Doubtful you can have all three plus all the other young studs to be locked up over the next few years. I still think PG made the right choice.

3) Ya, right now it looks like signing the Hammer instead of Gill would have been wise, but we may all rethink that once again come playoff time (if, if, if, I know). More importantly, it may very well come down to $1-3M one way or the other as PG tries to lock up Price, Subban, Eller, Gorges, and perhaps AK (or his replacement) next summer. Hammer drew the line on demanding two years. Again, I think PG made the right choice as Gill will not be back (expect maybe for $1M as a "player-coach").

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Guy Lafleur showed up in the regular season and the playoffs and showed up EVERY DAMN night, even though he was on a team that he could have floated through the regular season. Cammy has been soft and invisible for long stretches. We are a bubble team. We can't have guys who are supposed to be our top guys be missing for long stretches of the regular season. On the one hand you always are criticizing AK46 because he is hot and cold. yet, give Cammy a free pass because he had two good playoffs. Talk to the flames fans. Cammy was INVISIBLE in the playoffs the year he scored 39 goals during the regular season.

My point regarding Cammy is that I really don't give a damn what he MIGHT do in this year's playoffs, if we don't make the damn playoffs. I'm not willing to give him a free pass for being paid $6M for not even scoring 30 goals.

Just like I was dead set against the Gomez trade for him making $7.2M when he had put up 50 some points for the Rangers. You on the other hand were a huge supporter of that trade. How did that great deal turn out???

As for showering love on Ak46, I don't think he has ever got a fair shake in Montreal. His first playoffs he put up 8 points. In his 2nd playoffs, along with the REST of the team, he did nothing, but who did score in that sweep series???? The year the habs went to the final 4, he put up 8 points. Gomez who you seemed to have a love affair with until last year got 12. Four more points, despite getting a lot more ice time and despite him being a playoff grizzled veteran and cup winner. Big friggin deal.

My point regarding AK46 is that he has NEVER been given as much rope as Gomez, Cammy, Gionta when they aren't producing. Hell he isn't even given as much slack as Moen and Darche - despite the fact that Moen sucked lemons last year.

Given he and Sk74 were hung by the french media before even all the facts came out on the "Big scandal that would shake and shame the montreal canadian's foundations" word's by an uneducated jerk like Demers, who ended up becoming a Senator despite such a ignorant attitude (that's the type of guy I'd want sitting on the Canadian Senate), it's no big surprise he struggled.

Last year, whenever anyoe struggled, Ak46 was stuck with them, yet when Ak46 struggled, Martin nailed his ass to the bench.

When we lose him for nothing and he does go ont to score 35 goals elsewhere, i'm sure you will be sitting hear talking about him the way you cry about Ribeiro - a guy who really was a dressing room cancer.

As far as letting Hamrlik go, did you really want a defence of Hamrlik, Gill, Gorges and Spacek again??? All four of them would make great #5 or #6 dman, and can be servicable #4 Dman. So you are saying you would have wanted 4 dman back who are really suited to being #5 or #6 Dman. Hamrlik was good for stretches, but at his age, he can't be counted on being a top 3 dman. I wouldn't have been opposed to bringing back Hamrlik, if we had let Gill go, or were able to trade Spacek. But there is no way in hell I would have wanted all three back.

What we needed was to trade or sign a true #3/#4 dman - preferably a guy with Gill's size but with Gorges heart and willingness to get fiesty. Markov and Subban were expected to be #1 and #2. Then we have a bunch of kids who should be given the chance to be #5 or #6 initially until they can prove they are 2nd pairing Dman. Instead PG, started the year with Gill, Spacek, Weber, Diaz, Emelin and Campoli - all #5 and #6 dman. I think Diaz, Weber and Emelin can move up the dept chart once they get experience and prove themselves and Gorges can play the #4 role at times and is very effective on the PK, but PG did not bring in a true #3 dman to lead the second pairing.

I liked the Campoli signing, because of the dollars he was signed for, but I'm not much of a campoli fan. As i've said he just adds to our long list of bottom pairing dmen. I would have preferred that PG showed some balls and signed a guy like Cam Barker who has more upside physically. The habs only picked up one physical dman and Martin's had him sitting in the press box for most of the year. The irony is that the Dman the habs could use right now is Mcdonagh - the guy I was most vocal about losing when the idiotic Gomez deal was made and you shrugged off at the time.

As far as Wiz goes, I said 1 month after the habs picked him up that the Habs should sign him ASAP, just as I had said into Pleks first year, that they should sign him ASAP and not wait until the off season. I think if the habs had tried, they probably could have got both for around $4.5M. But no, the management has this idiotic policy of not negotiating during the regular season. Other teams are able to lock up their top guys during the season for a lot less money then they would make as UFA's. but the habs under Gainey and PG, have followed this idiotic policy of waiting when the players have all of the leverage in the off season. As far as signing Wiz over Markov, that is a gamble I would have made without even blinking. Wiz had has had 3 similar operations as Markov. He looks no worse for wear. But there is no friggin way i would have given him $5.5M for 5 years. Having said that I think the habs should have been able to get Markov for under his current salary, given they did offer him 3 years. If they were going to give him $5.75M, it should have been a 1 year deal. I'd even have given him a 5 year deal if he signed for $5M or under.

I still think Markov will come back, his surgery is nothing worse then others have come back for and it is a calculated gamble worth taking. At worst, he is done and we pay his salary, but don't take the cap hit. Wiz on the other hand is not a $5.5M player. His ontract represents the stupidity of GM's who everytime the collective bargaining agreement comes up for renewal, owners will cry poor to save themselves from their own stupidity in giving ridiculous contracts and tier 1 money to tier 2 players.

Nice post. Balanced, intelligent, and less fumingly grouchy than usual ;)

If we do miss the playoffs and Cammy produces over the season at mediocre levels, then I too will be irritated, obviously. The point is that this hasn't happened yet so I am not going to get worked up about it. What has actually happened so far is that Cammalleri has been an absolute playoff monster for two consecutive years, and I say this should buy him some leeway from fans when he struggles early in a season. (I actually predicted that these struggles would follow his return from injury. That is his pattern, alas).

Not sure what Gomez has to do with this discussion, but what the heck. I believe my reaction at the time was to be happy we had Gomez, who up until his bizarre evaporation last season was one of the most dashing playmakers in the game; but I also said that if McDonagh turned into a top-4 defenceman the trade would prove to be a bad one. I reiterate that the Gomez I expected to see was the Gomez who got 60 points in his first year with us and finished 20th overall in assists. THAT Gomez is not the guy we saw last season. And I did not defend and have never defended the guy we saw last season. Certainly I'd rather we keep Kosty than that bum. I'm with you there.

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I think most of the reason why AK46 is "the whipping boy" for media and fans is because everyone can see how much talent and potential he has, but he doesn't seem to use it most of the time. The guy has a laser beam shot, a big body that he can crush with, good speed and great hands. It is frustrating to watch him play when he doesn't seem to utilize all these abilities. We have all been waiting for him to unleash on a consistent basis, but it's never happened. The thing is though, that this happens all across the league with all kinds of players. It's what separates the great for the good. AK will never be a great player, he has all the tools but not the tool box. I am not hating on the guy, personally I like having him in the lineup and want to keep him but I think what we see is what we are going to get.

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This is a great discussion.

1. Regarding Cammalleri: It's easy to get on his back right now, but he's scored a few and has hit a pile of posts. An inch the other way and we're extolling his virtues rather than ruing his lack of scoring. Let's see what another 10 games or so brings to see if he can start finding that inch. He's obviously close, and I think he's playing pretty good hockey as well. Having said that, I completely agree that we paid him $6M to put the biscuit in the basket. I have to believe we'll be happier in a month or so with his production.

2. Regarding Gomez: He was instrumental in bringing Cammi, Gionta, and quite possibly a couple of other as well. Sometimes you pay too much, but sometimes that's the price of business. I hold out hope that he can find his game. Certainly, there have been moments so far this year where he's looked good. I mentioned it before, but he has to unlearn bad habits he created last year. I think he needs a little more time.

3. Regarding Kostitsyn: He's been, at times, unfairly benched or paired on the third or fourth lines. Of that there can be no question. He's also got the reputation of having the Kovalev Habit; in other words, he shows up for a few great games, and then disappears extensively. However, that was in the past. People change. To me, it looks like his game has matured. His body language tells me he's matured as well. I see more poise from him more often. I'm hoping that Martin is seeing this and will play him in more and more critical situations. Reward the good, rather than just punish the bad. His number one issue, I believe, is decisions. Sometimes he carries when he should pass, and vice versa. I'd also love to see him fight for that puck in the slot and little more and get off his shot. He's got a very powerful shot that we need to see a lot more.

4. Regarding Hamr: I think he should have been kept. That said, with Spacek immovable, the business decision says that you can't really keep Hamr. I believe he can still hack it as a #3, 4 if you ensure he's playing 17-20 minutes a game - mostly towards the lower end. He would also have been brilliant early on with all the injuries, but PG can't plan his defence based on the possibility of guys being injured. He has to plan based on assets and financial needs going forward. You have to think he was expecting Diaz and Emelin, in particular, to make the jump and develop as the year progressed. This is happening. I would guess that PG believed Markov was going to be back sooner, but the set-back thew plans for a loop. The Campoli signing was brilliant, in that it filled a hole with experience with a reasonable short-term contract. Who could know he was going to get injured 12 minutes into his first game?

5. Regarding the Wizinator: Numbers game, pure and simple. Would he be great here, sure. I wanted him signed within ten games of him appearing here. And yes, his price would probably have been quite a bit lower. However sometimes you have to take chances. This time, it probably didn't work out quite as hoped. Thems the breaks.

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Colin...It's my belief that the only thing instrumental in persuading Cammi and Gionta to sign here was the fact that we out bid every other team by a country mile. With a microphone in a players face, asking why he decided to sign here, he's not likely to say it's because of his bank account. It's just a politically correct response. It's strictly a business decision. We'll never know, but some on this site quote that as gospel. Like a mathematic equation. Gomez=Cammi/Gionta. I don't believe that for a second.

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Colin...It's my belief that the only thing instrumental in persuading Cammi and Gionta to sign here was the fact that we out bid every other team by a country mile. With a microphone in a players face, asking why he decided to sign here, he's not likely to say it's because of his bank account. It's just a politically correct response. It's strictly a business decision. We'll never know, but some on this site quote that as gospel. Like a mathematic equation. Gomez=Cammi/Gionta. I don't believe that for a second.

I don't believe it to be a certainty either. Neither do I believe either of them to be out-and-out liars. They don't strike me as the sort to just offer platitudes. Particularly the way they can call out the team and players when things aren't going well. There's no reason not to believe that Gomez wasn't a factor in coming to Montreal. And I don't agree that it's just a business decision at all. Is money a large factor? Absolutely. Was Gomez a factor? I think so. Was Gainey's reputation a factor? Again, I think so. Contrary to what many might think, I don't believe these players are only in it for the money. If they were, everyone would sign with New York or Toronto where they could get sponsorship deals as well.

No, I think that, while money was a motivator, so too was the chance to play with a gifted playmaker who can make you look really good (when he's on). Amongst, of course, a great many other reasons.

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First, I should start by saying that Kostitsyn is my fav Habs.

Second, I want you to think about how we play hockey at the rink in the public park, when we play something like 10 on 10 without goalie, equipement, pressure, etc.You know all the crazy dekes, risky passes, all out fancy plays that we try without any fear cuz there is nothing on the game. Every single plays are aimed at showing up what we can do with the puck. And, most of the time, it is individual efforts.

And there is always a guy that is better than the others and that constantly tries this kind of plays and succeed cuz he's too good.

I telieve that in the NHL (probably even AHL), 100% of the players were that guy. But when they play with their pro team now, they are asked to be productive, to win and play a good but safe hockey, as a team, not individual at all.

I think that guys like Ovechkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, etc might try more fancy stuff, but generally, I'd say the % of basic hockey vs fancy hockey for an NHL player should turn around something like 80-20, maybe even 85-15.

When it comes for guys like Andrei Kostitsyn (I'd say Kovalev as well), it looks more like 50-50. So far in his career, it looked like he went for the "between the defender's legs pass" or the huge deke more often than the average player. I can count on my right hand the garbage goals he scored but I can come up with many goals that would crack top 10 of the week.

I believe that he just started to understand that we would all see how good of a hockey player he is if he was to lower the fancy hockey % to 20 and get the basic hockey % to 80 like other players.

I hope he's going there. Cuz IMHO, he is our best forward.

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Joe, I respect your opinion, but to call Kosty our best forward is simply nuts. Plekanec is our best forward by a country mile.

Other than that, your post is insightful. It may be that Kosty is a slow learner who is finally starting to figure things out.

Having said that, I've just seen too many of these sorts of players in my time - guys who seem to have great tools, tons of talent, and who are identified by fans as just bound to put it all together sooner or later. Stephane Richer was going to be the new Guy Lafleur. (He did put two great season together but other than that was a career mediocrity). Gilbert Dionne was going to be a 40-goal scorer in this league. Malakhov was going to win the Norris Trophy some day once he 'put it all together.' Danius Zubrus, it was a matter of time before he became a core guy. Richard Zednik was sure to blossom into a first-line winger. Jan Bulis had all the tools to become a star. Latendresse was going to be the new John Leclair. Higgins was a sure-fire candidate for team captain one day and a 40-40 guy. Komisarek was going to become a premier shutdown defenceman. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Kosty has been a model of consistency for four seasons. In this respect he more closely resembles Michael Ryder, a guy who burst into the league more or less fully realized, than a 'grower' like Plekanec. I do think there is a decent possibility that Kosty will have 1-2 Big Seasons in his career, where everything just kinda goes right (c.f. Kovalev, not that Kosty is in that class). There is a more remote, but still realistic, possibility of a true breakout where he takes a jump and becomes an actual front-line player, 35 goals, 70+ points, a go-to guy who reliably delivers.

But I'm not holding my breath. The most realistic probability is that what you see is what you get. 25 goals, 25 assists, good physical game, and 30-40 games a year where he goes around in a total fog.

Note that I don't say this to slag Kostitsyn. The guy I just described is a useful mid-range asset for our team. It's just important not to confuse potential and reality.

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Joe, I respect your opinion, but to call Kosty our best forward is simply nuts. Plekanec is our best forward by a country mile.

Other than that, your post is insightful. It may be that Kosty is a slow learner who is finally starting to figure things out.

Having said that, I've just seen too many of these sorts of players in my time - guys who seem to have great tools, tons of talent, and who are identified by fans as just bound to put it all together sooner or later. Stephane Richer was going to be the new Guy Lafleur. (He did put two great season together but other than that was a career mediocrity). Gilbert Dionne was going to be a 40-goal scorer in this league. Malakhov was going to win the Norris Trophy some day once he 'put it all together.' Danius Zubrus, it was a matter of time before he became a core guy. Richard Zednik was sure to blossom into a first-line winger. Jan Bulis had all the tools to become a star. Latendresse was going to be the new John Leclair. Higgins was a sure-fire candidate for team captain one day and a 40-40 guy. Komisarek was going to become a premier shutdown defenceman. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Kosty has been a model of consistency for four seasons. In this respect he more closely resembles Michael Ryder, a guy who burst into the league more or less fully realized, than a 'grower' like Plekanec. I do think there is a decent possibility that Kosty will have 1-2 Big Seasons in his career, where everything just kinda goes right (c.f. Kovalev, not that Kosty is in that class). There is a more remote, but still realistic, possibility of a true breakout where he takes a jump and becomes an actual front-line player, 35 goals, 70+ points, a go-to guy who reliably delivers.

But I'm not holding my breath. The most realistic probability is that what you see is what you get. 25 goals, 25 assists, good physical game, and 30-40 games a year where he goes around in a total fog.

Note that I don't say this to slag Kostitsyn. The guy I just described is a useful mid-range asset for our team. It's just important not to confuse potential and reality.

What I really meant was Kostitsyn is our best scorer, the one with the most pure hockey skills to put a puck in a net. (Cammalleri is right there with him though)

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What I really meant was Kostitsyn is our best scorer, the one with the most pure hockey skills to put a puck in a net. (Cammalleri is right there with him though)

Perhaps your love for AK and justifiable frustration with the rap he gets and ways Martin (under) uses him are clouding the issue? Pleks is easily our best forward.

Rather than compare him with Cam, I'd put AK in the power forward grouping with Cole and Max. Each has their strengths - AK's happens to his laser shot and passing skills. All three are about even in terms of value right now, but Max has the potential to become an elite winger. Sure AK does too.

I liked your analogy from the frozen pond. In addition, I'd suggest, as I have elsewhere, that the main reason so many get frustrated with Andrei is that they are looking for something that cannot be there from him in the offensive zone. We get some bursts of speed and big hits from him when appropriate, but for the most part AK is a "float like a butter fly, sting like a bee" kinda guy. It looks like he is floating or in a fog, but he is patiently waiting for his spot to make that brilliant pass or shot. If this doesn't happen for too long at a stretch, people accuse him of playing a lazy game. Yet, his greatly improved backchecking and defensive responsibility under The System belie this accusation.

No doubt he can get in a cold streak like any gifted hockey player, but the main issue is that people are looking for a power forward style that is in part the anti-thesis of AK's productive approach. We should all respect his float and sting style a little more, accept 25-25 as a reasonable top 6 contribution, and realize that if he produced more, we probably couldn't afford him at this juncture.

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Re-read his post. He says Kosty is his favourite player. Not the best on the team. He doesn"t need to put anything together. His bang for your buck, scoring wise is one of the best in the top 6 if you look at the entire season. Everyone knows that he goes to sleep. Everyone knows that Plek is the best forward on the team. But I tend to agree that I would rather see Cammie or Gomez or even Gionta leave the team before Kosty. All these midgets and the only good player in the prospect pool is also a midget. Kosty has a huge upside, but even with his streaky tendancies, he is worth the money.

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Re-read his post. He says Kosty is his favourite player. Not the best on the team. He doesn"t need to put anything together. His bang for your buck, scoring wise is one of the best in the top 6 if you look at the entire season. Everyone knows that he goes to sleep. Everyone knows that Plek is the best forward on the team. But I tend to agree that I would rather see Cammie or Gomez or even Gionta leave the team before Kosty. All these midgets and the only good player in the prospect pool is also a midget. Kosty has a huge upside, but even with his streaky tendancies, he is worth the money.

I don't get all this "midget" talk.

Crosby, 5'11, 200lbs

Gomez, 5'11, 200lbs

Steve Yzerman 5'11, 185

Wayne Gretzky 6' 189

Don't get me wrong, not putting Gomez in this comparison in terms of quality, but why do we keep calling guys of this size "small"? If we had Crosby, would we still be "small"? Okay, he plays bigger, but what about Gretzky. Is that single inch really enough to make him a big centre? Even though he's 11 lbs lighter? Plex is 5'11, 198. Is he small too? What are the criteria to be considered "big"? Over 6'1? Or do you just have to score a lot of points? Is Eller's 6'2 202 big? Or is he small because he looks kinda weedy?

Gio, Cammi, Desharnais. Sure. Small. I just don't get the label on some of the others. It's feels more subjective than objective.

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I don't get all this "midget" talk.

Our "name" players are small (Gionta/Cammalleri) or aren't known to be physical (Markov/Plekanec) and therefore the team is perceived as too small.

I think a solid case could be made that having too many short players in your top 6 is detrimental. I don't think you'll find too many other teams with more than one small player in a key role. Montreal has 2... 3 if you count Desharnais, and 4 if you think Gallagher will be in the NHL next season (I don't).

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Um, I was responding to the part when Joe said: "Cuz IMHO, he is our best forward."

I agree with the rest of what you said.

Ahahaha. Sorry man. I didn't see that. Ya he isn't the best forward. If I was rating I would say Plek, Cammie, Gio and maybe even cole are ahead of him. I do think that the team is too small, or at least the smaller players are not physical enough, and this makes Kosty more important to our top six than say Anaheim. Hartnell is not a fantastic top 6er, but if he was a Hab, he would be very important, because of the way he plays.

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Looking at his production, I see kosty getting a decent raise whether here or elsewhere. He's younger and the numbers are comparable to Cole. He's more physical and has had a better career than Ville Leino. His numbers are similar to Brooks Laich. He's healthier than Tim Connolly. There is a good case for 4.5 million + for AK's agent.

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Looking at his production, I see kosty getting a decent raise whether here or elsewhere. He's younger and the numbers are comparable to Cole. He's more physical and has had a better career than Ville Leino. His numbers are similar to Brooks Laich. He's healthier than Tim Connolly. There is a good case for 4.5 million + for AK's agent.

Have to agree.

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Maybe the question for Kosty's fans is, at what point do you say he's not worth it? $4 mil? $5 mil?

Of course some will reply that he should have been locked-up long-term at $3.5. For me this is just more fantasy-land thinking where players somehow are incapable of determining their actual market worth, or else are so deeply touched by the team's interest that they're willing to undersell themselves for years to come out of sheer sentimentality. So let's have the hard discussion. How much should we be willing to pay for Andrei Kostitsyn?

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