GDT Canadiens @ Flyers - Nov. 25th, 2011

[Commandant]

For the first part of your post.... So only a guy who was once a star in the NHL can make a good coach... and a guy who was more of a journeyman like Ladoucer can't coach.

Tell that to Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour, Glen Sather, Mike Babcock, Dan Bylsma, etc.... oh and well your at it, go look up the career coaching records of Maurice Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion, Wayne Gretzky, and numerous other hall of fame players. I don't buy the argument for one second that because Ladoucer wasn't a star he can't coach. Doesn't make any sense at all. Sometimes journeymen make the best coaches because they lacked natural talent and had to work the hardest and learn every trick in the book just to stay in the league.

As for every success is in spite of martin... yup it makes sense, every loss is Martin's fault and every success is in spite of him. The guy somehow won 600+ games by accident, and better coaches than him are found on hockey message boards, twitter and call in sports radio.

[dlbalr]

You can harp all you want about the injuries and inexperience on defence, but at the end of the day, it comes down to coaching, mis-managment of players and really not developing young players. Eller is going through the same crap that MaxPac and Subban went through with Martin.

And please, i'm tired of the BS about how well MaxPac and Subban have been developing under Martin. THese guys have had success in spite of Martin and proved themselves when Martin has NO CHOICE but to play them because of injuries.

What, they didn't have a choice when they chose to recall Pacioretty last year instead of others? The young players over the past few years have played relatively well for the most part, you can't arbitrarily state that the coach had nothing to do with it. And yeah, a lot of it does have to do with injuries. When your 10th string defenceman is forced to dress as a forward, injuries have clearly taken their toll.

I agree that the usage of some youngsters (namely Eller) has been odd, but I think I see the strategy they're going for with him. I'll save that for the HW Recap on Sunday though as I'm short on ideas otherwise.

It was an off game; last I checked, this isn't something unique to the Habs organization. If you want a positive, they should have some energy left in the tank for tomorrow.

[hab29RETIRED]

You're on fire today hab29! With each post, you get me thinking about coach Martin, as you've been consistent for along time. Sometimes I think, show me a great goalie, and I'll show you a great coach.

Was Demers a great coach, or did Roy win him a cup.

Demers greatest coaching decision in his life was showing some balls and calling for a stick measurement and letting his offensive guys like Muller, Damphouse, Bellows loose and only watched them score 90 points. But his meal ticket was Roy. As well as Muller, Damphouse, Leclair were in 93, without Roy there would not have been a cup in 93'.

Martin has Cammy playing like he is in a straight jacket and is trying to turn Eller into Mike MacPhee.

[Commandant]

Demers was a two time jack adams award winner... the only person ever to win the award in consecutive years before he even started coaching Patrick Roy.

But apparently he was only a good coach because of his goalie.

[hab29RETIRED]

For the first part of your post.... So only a guy who was once a star in the NHL can make a good coach... and a guy who was more of a journeyman like Ladoucer can't coach.

Tell that to Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour, Glen Sather, Mike Babcock, Dan Bylsma, etc.... oh and well your at it, go look up the career coaching records of Maurice Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion, Wayne Gretzky, and numerous other hall of fame players. I don't buy the argument for one second that because Ladoucer wasn't a star he can't coach. Doesn't make any sense at all. Sometimes journeymen make the best coaches because they lacked natural talent and had to work the hardest and learn every trick in the book just to stay in the league.

As for every success is in spite of martin... yup it makes sense, every loss is Martin's fault and every success is in spite of him. The guy somehow won 600+ games by accident, and better coaches than him are found on hockey message boards, twitter and call in sports radio.

I'm not saying to bring Robinson as a head coach, nor am I saying that you have to be a star player to be a good head coach - it's usually the opposite - the best coaches have generally been journeyman or guys who didn't have great head coaching careers. Blake is probably the exception.

What I'm saying is that the habs need a mentor/coach for their young defence. Macrimmon played that role with calgary and detroit. RObinson has already done that in NJ. Subban is a very talented and creative guy, I just think he would look up and listen to a guy like Robinson a lot more then Ladeaceur and Pearn are not offensive coaches. Read interviews from guys like Blake, Sydor on how they raved about how Robinson worked with them one on one and acted as mentor to them. Ideally, Subban would have a mentor who had his talent level to show him the ropes, since that doesn't exist in Montreal (Markov, doesn't seem to play the mentor role), having an assistant coach who isn't busting his balls, is probably something he could use.

As far as head coaches go, i said right AFTER the habs went to the final four, fire Martin and hire Boucher.

[hab29RETIRED]

Demers was a two time jack adams award winner... the only person ever to win the award in consecutive years before he even started coaching Patrick Roy.

But apparently he was only a good coach because of his goalie.

Most jack adams winners tend to be fired the following year. Didn't he win his jack adams when he was coaching Stevie Y??? I also remember them not being able to get over the hump, because (GASP), not having a stud in net.

Not saying he was not a good coach - just not in the same "Great" class like a bowman, Arbour. I also don't hold much stock in the jack adams award. IMO ,the best coach in the game for the past 6-7 years has been Babcock - how many jack adams has he won???? At his best, i'd take Babcock over Demers any day.

[Trizzak]

On the topic of the powerplay, I think there is more wrong with it than just Plekanec on the point. Pacioretty is really weak on the right side. Weber somehow forgot how to shoot a one timer. They have no down-low play whatsoever.

I hope Markov is the magic elixir, but now I'm not sure...

I'm just quoting myself because it's more true now that it was at the end of the 1st period.

[Habsy]

Ok Trizzak, since the only one agreeing with you is, well, you. I'm going to deliver a mega +1 to your power play assessment!!!

[Trizzak]

Ok Trizzak, since the only one agreeing with you is, well, you. I'm going to deliver a mega +1 to your power play assessment!!!

Not really looking for agreement as much as I am looking for discussion. hab29 and Commandant briefly touched on PP strategy, but I really think it deserves a closer look.

Is Markov the answer? Or is the PP question multiple choice?

[Commandant]

I'm not saying to bring Robinson as a head coach, nor am I saying that you have to be a star player to be a good head coach - it's usually the opposite - the best coaches have generally been journeyman or guys who didn't have great head coaching careers. Blake is probably the exception.

What I'm saying is that the habs need a mentor/coach for their young defence. Macrimmon played that role with calgary and detroit. RObinson has already done that in NJ. Subban is a very talented and creative guy, I just think he would look up and listen to a guy like Robinson a lot more then Ladeaceur and Pearn are not offensive coaches. Read interviews from guys like Blake, Sydor on how they raved about how Robinson worked with them one on one and acted as mentor to them. Ideally, Subban would have a mentor who had his talent level to show him the ropes, since that doesn't exist in Montreal (Markov, doesn't seem to play the mentor role), having an assistant coach who isn't busting his balls, is probably something he could use.

As far as head coaches go, i said right AFTER the habs went to the final four, fire Martin and hire Boucher.

Guy Boucher who just lost to the Leafs 7-1 and is 9-9-2 this season? that Guy Boucher? Genius.

And Ladoucer is a failure considering PK is 22 years old, playing over 24 minutes per game, and is even on the season after starting as a -7. Isn't that right? PK needs better coaching and a better mentor on defence? Never mind that our young D as a whole have played more minutes and played better than anyone could have expected this season.

But Ladoucer is a terrible coach who can't teach these guys??

Most jack adams winners tend to be fired the following year. Didn't he win his jack adams when he was coaching Stevie Y??? I also remember them not being able to get over the hump, because (GASP), not having a stud in net.

It was 1987 and 1988, there was this team in the Campbell Conference who were orange and blue and won a whole bunch of Stanley Cups and had Wayne Freaking Gretzky and like 10 hall of famers. No surprise they didn't get over the hump.

Not saying he was not a good coach - just not in the same "Great" class like a bowman, Arbour. I also don't hold much stock in the jack adams award. IMO ,the best coach in the game for the past 6-7 years has been Babcock - how many jack adams has he won???? At his best, i'd take Babcock over Demers any day.

[dlbalr]

Not really looking for agreement as much as I am looking for discussion. hab29 and Commandant briefly touched on PP strategy, but I really think it deserves a closer look.

Is Markov the answer? Or is the PP question multiple choice?

It has to be the latter. A good PP strategy is tailored to the personnel on the ice which means multiple options are at play. Markov may help one unit a little if the Plan 'A' idea is to shoot from the point (Markov's a good passer to set up the shot)...although Subban and Weber realizing they don't need to shoot through the goalie when by him will work just as well would also make a positive difference.

Predictability is the biggest problem I have with the PP, not so much the personnel. On the first unit, it's pass, pass, pass, Weber shoots while on the second, it's pass, pass, pass, Subban shoots. On the rare time it's not a point shot, it's a corner shot from Cammalleri. Mix the strategy up, try and break down the opposition box by getting someone in the middle of it, opening things up on the sides for rebounds/jam plays, areas where Pacioretty and Cole can use their size in front.

[Commandant]

I'm just quoting myself because it's more true now that it was at the end of the 1st period.

i agree with you Trizzak, this PP has far more wrong with it than just Plekanec at the point.

I don't think I'd change him, he's finally looking better back there and was one of our best PP guys.

But I agree with Habs29retired in that Patches and Cole and the returning AK need to crash the net and the point guys need to shoot more. Don't like Patches on the half boards. Simplify til Markov returns.

[Trizzak]

First of all, get Pleks in off the point, put him where he has been for the past couple of year, just of the hashmarks, Cole and MaxPac in front and just start shooting from the point. Get Subban and Weber on the point. Have them practice and tell that they are going to be on the 1st unit until Markov comes back, as long as they do as instructed. Tell them, they have one job, one job only - shoot the friggin puck, rather then keep passing it around and like they're playing hot potatoe. Keep blasting it away. Simplify the PP, by just shooting.

It's probably just hyperbole saying "one job only - shoot the friggin puck" because just doing one thing over and over is pretty easy to defend, but the point players do need to get more shots through from the point.

Pacioretty has scored most of his powerplay goals in the slot, so I'd definitely put him back there. I'd rather have green youth on the blueline than Plekanec right now. Pleks down low is where I want him. Cammalleri stays at the half boards for a possible one timer... There are a lot more options available to the team, even with all these injuries. Seeing the same thing over and over is getting tiresome.

[hab29RETIRED]

Guy Boucher who just lost to the Leafs 7-1 and is 9-9-2 this season? that Guy Boucher? Genius.

And Ladoucer is a failure considering PK is 22 years old, playing over 24 minutes per game, and is even on the season after starting as a -7. Isn't that right? PK needs better coaching and a better mentor on defence? Never mind that our young D as a whole have played more minutes and played better than anyone could have expected this season.

But Ladoucer is a terrible coach who can't teach these guys??

It was 1987 and 1988, there was this team in the Campbell Conference who were orange and blue and won a whole bunch of Stanley Cups and had Wayne Freaking Gretzky and like 10 hall of famers. No surprise they didn't get over the hump.

Boucher clearly is operating without a goalie or Defence. I shudder to think what Martin would do in that situation - at least the Habs have Price.

How well did the habs do last year on the PP with Muller vs. Cunneyworth/Ladeceaur/Pearn. Seemed that Subban was playing the same type of minutes last year with the depleted habs defense AND was producing offensively.

Could it have been Muller was a better mentor??? Not questioning coaching ability here. talking about mentorship and being able to get through to a player.

Yes the Oilers were a stacked team - IMO they should have been able to win more cups then they did, prior to the Gretzky trade - which btw, is meant to be an underhand shot at Slats . But bottom line was that Detroit had no goaltending that could have offered more resistance then going down 4-1 if they at least had a goalie. Kind of like Hextall at least gave the flyers a shot.

[hab29RETIRED]

It's probably just hyperbole saying "one job only - shoot the friggin puck" because just doing one thing over and over is pretty easy to defend, but the point players do need to get more shots through from the point.

Pacioretty has scored most of his powerplay goals in the slot, so I'd definitely put him back there. I'd rather have green youth on the blueline than Plekanec right now. Pleks down low is where I want him. Cammalleri stays at the half boards for a possible one timer... There are a lot more options available to the team, even with all these injuries. Seeing the same thing over and over is getting tiresome.

I've been saying Pleks should be down low for the past month or so - he's had sucess there why change it. I'd rather keep Cammy of the PP for now. Concentrate on getting the D to just shoot the friggin puck and concentrating getting it through then going for the cute passes. Leave Cole and MaxPac to screen and pick up garbage from rebounds. When the PP is as bad as it is, you need to simplify things and just concentrate on hitting the net with traffic. Once the players start getting some confidence back and a shot from the point is seen as a threat by the opposition, chances for passes to the slot or at the side of the net will start opening up as teams try and cover the point.

Right now, teams don't see the shot from the point as a threat and there is usually pretty good coverage of the forwards. The habs PP is perdictable and to cap it off, Pleks on the point has been a defensive liability.

On the plus side, I've liked the job Weber has done in keeping pucks in the zone. He just needs to start shooting and practice hitting the damn net.

[JoeLassister]

Dear Markov,

could you come back like... yesterday ?

Please.

Best regards,

JoeLassister

P.S. Weber and Diaz SUUUUUCKED !!!

[Trizzak]

Dear Markov,

could you come back like... yesterday ?

Please.

Best regards,

JoeLassister

P.S. Weber and Diaz SUUUUUCKED !!!

Boone at hockeyinsideout called them "The Swiss Cheese" ... ... ...

[brobin]

First, I think many people are in denial. This team is not that great. They are small. Many are over paid. Many are declining. The rest are very young and still learning.

I like Pacs and Cole as they give us some power forwards. Skill, speed, size, nose for the net.

People say they like this team on paper.. I am not sure why. Stack our lineup against Boston or Philly, Pitts, etc. We are not the worse in the league, but we are far from a big, fast, talent laden team. We have some skills. Many of our players would be awesome, on a team with size and speed, but lines of Cammy, Gomez, and gionta are not going to grind through any 7 game series.

Now, to this game.. Did you see that third period. Philly up by two goals. Did they sit back? No, top teams dominate with a lead. Is it coaching? Well, to be fair, I don't see our team being able to play a top team with speed and energy for 60 minutes. It doesn't matter to me, the fact is our team sits back more often then not, while Boston, Philly, Pitts, etc tend to crush people with leads.

Boston is a better team (still think they are a bunch of pukes). The leafs are a better team. There. I said it. The leafs are way ahead of us with half the goaltending. They have way more offensive punch. I don't see them winning a cup either, but they are moving up. We are sliding down, with contracts which make it hard to get better.

Seriously. Some people think Eller and DD are taking us to the promise land. Eller is a decent 3rd liner. DD is nothing. PK is our biggest young gun in some time (plus Pacs). We don't have anyone close to Tyler Seguin, Kessell, etc.

Its time to face reality. We are not in a slump. This is a .500 team.

[Commandant]

Boucher clearly is operating without a goalie or Defence. I shudder to think what Martin would do in that situation - at least the Habs have Price.

Boucher also has Steven Stamkos and Marty St. Louis, two offensive stars who are much better than anything Montreal has to work with. Not to mention the mythical Vinny Lecavalier.

How well did the habs do last year on the PP with Muller vs. Cunneyworth/Ladeceaur/Pearn. Seemed that Subban was playing the same type of minutes last year with the depleted habs defense AND was producing offensively.

Subban averaged about 4 and a half less minutes per game last year. Thats a huge difference.

And its only Subban's goals that are really suffering he still has 9 pts.

Could it have been Muller was a better mentor??? Not questioning coaching ability here. talking about mentorship and being able to get through to a player.

Subban didnt score that much until after Wiz arrived. He really took off when there were two offensive threats at the blueline. I think he'll score more once Markov returns. He can't do it all himself back there.

Yes the Oilers were a stacked team - IMO they should have been able to win more cups then they did, prior to the Gretzky trade - which btw, is meant to be an underhand shot at Slats . But bottom line was that Detroit had no goaltending that could have offered more resistance then going down 4-1 if they at least had a goalie. Kind of like Hextall at least gave the flyers a shot.

Oh I agree, a Goalie is necessary for any coach to win. You can't win without the goaltending. Which is why I don't blame JM for his losses in Ottawa with Patrick Lalime as a number 1 guy.

[Commandant]

The Leafs are way ahead of us? 3 whole points is way ahead of us?

The Leafs are shit... and they have a team shooting percentage of something north of 10% right now. It was 12.9% earlier in the year. The numbers are reverting to the mean for them. Opposition goalies are not gonna consistently put up a sub 900 Sv% against them, and as that reverts to the mean and it becomes obvious their early season hot streak was nothing more than catching a bunch of opposition goalies on off nights... they will fall down the standings, as they've already begun to do.

[hab29RETIRED]

Boucher also has Steven Stamkos and Marty St. Louis, two offensive stars who are much better than anything Montreal has to work with. Not to mention the mythical Vinny Lecavalier.

Subban averaged about 4 and a half less minutes per game last year. Thats a huge difference.

And its only Subban's goals that are really suffering he still has 9 pts.

Subban didnt score that much until after Wiz arrived. He really took off when there were two offensive threats at the blueline. I think he'll score more once Markov returns. He can't do it all himself back there.

Oh I agree, a Goalie is necessary for any coach to win. You can't win without the goaltending. Which is why I don't blame JM for his losses in Ottawa with Patrick Lalime as a number 1 guy.

How much was he averaging down the stretch and in the playoffs. I thought he was closer to 25min near the end of the season and in the playoffs??

He's not scoring because he isn't shooting like he was. Last year, he showed he had a good wrister to go with his slapper. This year's he's always going with the golf swing. This is where, i think a young player is more open to listening to an assistant who is a mentor. YOu saw Muller last year being vocal during the game with young players. I don't see that when they show the bench now.

As far as TB. Yep he has Stamkos and St Louis. Vinny statiscally is doing alirght, but I just don't see him as a leader or a guy who is going to change things.

The Leafs are way ahead of us? 3 whole points is way ahead of us?

The Leafs are shit... and they have a team shooting percentage of something north of 10% right now. It was 12.9% earlier in the year. The numbers are reverting to the mean for them. Opposition goalies are not gonna consistently put up a sub 900 Sv% against them, and as that reverts to the mean and it becomes obvious their early season hot streak was nothing more than catching a bunch of opposition goalies on off nights... they will fall down the standings, as they've already begun to do.

+1. I can say that all day long - the leafs are shit, have always been shit and will always will be shit!

[JoeLassister]

Boone at hockeyinsideout called them "The Swiss Cheese" ... ... ...

bang on. Never seen 2 players struggling like that in the same game. Awful.

[brobin]

The Leafs are way ahead of us? 3 whole points is way ahead of us?

The Leafs are shit... and they have a team shooting percentage of something north of 10% right now. It was 12.9% earlier in the year. The numbers are reverting to the mean for them. Opposition goalies are not gonna consistently put up a sub 900 Sv% against them, and as that reverts to the mean and it becomes obvious their early season hot streak was nothing more than catching a bunch of opposition goalies on off nights... they will fall down the standings, as they've already begun to do.

there are three points ahead, with a game in hand, after a losing streak, with there number one goalie out.

As I said, they won't win the cup, but I give them better odds of making the playoffs then the habs. They are getting better. We are getting worse.

[Commandant]

How much was he averaging down the stretch and in the playoffs. I thought he was closer to 25min near the end of the season and in the playoffs??

He's not scoring because he isn't shooting like he was. Last year, he showed he had a good wrister to go with his slapper. This year's he's always going with the golf swing. This is where, i think a young player is more open to listening to an assistant who is a mentor. YOu saw Muller last year being vocal during the game with young players. I don't see that when they show the bench now.

I agree that his release is taking far too long right now.

But like I also said, down the stretch and in the playoffs he also had Wiz beside him on the PP.

There is more than one factor and he still has 9 pts.. which isn't awful either. The dropoff isn't that big.

As for the vocal role on the bench... Ladoucer is very animated back there.

there are three points ahead, with a game in hand, after a losing streak, with there number one goalie out.

As I said, they won't win the cup, but I give them better odds of making the playoffs then the habs. They are getting better. We are getting worse.

After a losing streak? Gee the Habs haven't had one of those.

As for Leafs injuries... cry me a river about their number 1 goalie being hurt. Has any team been hit as hard as Montreal with injuries?

Again, I don't see their offensive success being sustainable. You quite simply can not maintain a team shooting percentage over 10% in the NHL today... goalies are too good.

[hab29RETIRED]

I agree that his release is taking far too long right now.

But like I also said, down the stretch and in the playoffs he also had Wiz beside him on the PP.

There is more than one factor and he still has 9 pts.. which isn't awful either. The dropoff isn't that big.

As for the vocal role on the bench... Ladoucer is very animated back there.

After a losing streak? Gee the Habs haven't had one of those.

As for Leafs injuries... cry me a river about their number 1 goalie being hurt. Has any team been hit as hard as Montreal with injuries?

Again, I don't see their offensive success being sustainable. You quite simply can not maintain a team shooting percentage over 10% in the NHL today... goalies are too good.

maybe its because RDS, doesn't show him as much as they showed Muller, but I don't notice him as much. One thing that always struck me, going back even when Carbo was here, was how intently players would be listening to Muller. LIke I said, maybe they aren'r showing Ladeceur as much as they used to show Muller.

Or maybe, its becuase I always saw Muller as a leader as a player and then seeing how the team responded to him as an assistant and how players spoke highly of him in interviews makes me a bit more biased, but i haven't heard any of the players saying how great of a job Ladeceur is doing.