Fire Jacques Martin

[BTH]

ALL COACHES SHUFFLE LINES ALL THE TIME FOR ALL SORTS OF REASONS. Of all the arguments against JM this one is the absolute lamest. Any other coach we bring in here will do the same damned thing. Get over it.

lol @ Cucumber's sanity grinding down dealing with grumpy Habs in a losing season. I can picture you on the edge of your seat, refreshing the page, waiting for a Wamsley post.

So any coach we bring in will break up working lines, right. Any coach we bring in will put a checker with 2 scorers and limit their ice-time while expecting one of the 2 scorers to be one of the scoring leaders on the team, right.

Yes and yes. I have heard the same exact criticisms made about every coach I've watched in Montreal - Martin, Gainey, Carbonneau, Julien, Therrien (I feel like I'm forgetting someone) - and will be made about every coach that comes here in the future. It's because they apply to any coach when the team is losing. You are looking at Martin's attempted solutions to losing and calling them the cause of the losing in the first place.

Nobody here could deal with the situation any better than Martin can, and no French-speaking coach out there could either.

[Habsy]

lol @ Cucumber's sanity grinding down dealing with grumpy Habs in a losing season. I can picture you on the edge of your seat, refreshing the page, waiting for a Wamsley post.

Yes and yes. I have heard the same exact criticisms made about every coach I've watched in Montreal - Martin, Gainey, Carbonneau, Julien, Therrien (I feel like I'm forgetting someone) - and will be made about every coach that comes here in the future. It's because they apply to any coach when the team is losing. You are looking at Martin's attempted solutions to losing and calling them the cause of the losing in the first place.

Nobody here could deal with the situation any better than Martin can, and no French-speaking coach out there could either.

Great! So let's give him a nice contract extension as a Christmas gift. I'd bet that even heavy duty Martin defenders like Commandant and The Cucumber would question that. I've never called for his firing, but a fresh set of eyes, a new approach, sometimes helps. In my opinion, his message has become stale. Don't go looking for evidence, it's not something you can find.

[BTH]

Great! So let's give him a nice contract extension as a Christmas gift. I'd bet that even heavy duty Martin defenders like Commandant and The Cucumber would question that. I've never called for his firing, but a fresh set of eyes, a new approach, sometimes helps. In my opinion, his message has become stale. Don't go looking for evidence, it's not something you can find.

But you need to have some reason to believe that the replacement will do better or else what good is a new set of eyes? I don't believe in downgrading your coach just to send a message to your players. If they were open to hiring Anglo coaches, there would be a better case for firing Martin.

[Habsy]

But you need to have some reason to believe that the replacement will do better or else what good is a new set of eyes? I don't believe in downgrading your coach just to send a message to your players. If they were open to hiring Anglo coaches, there would be a better case for firing Martin.

It's funny you say that, about anglo coaches. Because in my opinion, yes opinion, many on this team would prefer Kirk Muller as coach. And I don't believe that's such a crazy notion. I'm fully aware a unilingual anglophone coach isn't going to be hired. Also, not sure why you chose the word downgrade. In reality, none of us are really qualified to say if coach A is better than coach B.

[illWill]

Yowza, things get heated in HabsWorld when the team is struggling. Let's all punch the next Leaf fan in the face that we see, I'm sure that will help with the frustration a bit.

[brobin]

This team is not a good coach away from contending, as some hear think.

Many experts believe that JM gets as many points out of these teams as you are going to get. I suspect that is at least close to true. I am not convinced he can win in the playoffs because playoffs require adjustment and he tends to be to slow adjusting.

[Colin]

This team is not a good coach away from contending, as some hear think.

Many experts believe that JM gets as many points out of these teams as you are going to get. I suspect that is at least close to true. I am not convinced he can win in the playoffs because playoffs require adjustment and he tends to be to slow adjusting.

Understatement of the season.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

BTH and Commandant get bouquets for their interventions in this thread

[Toronthab]

This 0-3 slump is disconcerting, because our early season skid put us in a position where we could not afford too many further slumps. I'll say what I said early in the season, though: it's not about wins and losses, it's about where you are in the standings. Right now, we are two, count 'em two, points out of 8th place. So we remain in a perfectly viable position to make the playoffs and firing Martin would be premature.

Obviously, if you think JM is a bumbling boob who is personally responsible for, say, the bad power-play - which, incidentally, is THE major reason we are not comfortably in a playoff spot - then my logic makes no sense. But in my view, which I have maintained all season long, this team just doesn't have the horses to run a consistently strong power play.

That's because a PP is controlled from the blueline, and in the absence of Markov and Wiz (and to a much lesser degree Hamrlik), we lack the defencemen to make it happen. Weber is erratic at best. Subban hasn't put it all together yet. Gorges is not an offensive defenceman. The rest are either Gill or at-best-middling rookies. This is not rocket science.

Our PP sucked last year when Markov went down and before we got Wiz. Then we acuqired Wiz and it became very good again. The independent variable could not be more obvious. It's called talent.

So: the team struggles mainly because the PP struggles. The PP struggles because our blueline has ZERO players who can run a PP. Martin is NOT the main factor in all of this.

Of course there are other, secondary problems. Cammalleri's struggles over this season and last year are becoming a grave concern. That Gio is -6 with poor offensive numbers is unsettling. These guys are supposed to be top-6 forwards - in Cammy's case, an elite top-3 forward - and they are out to lunch. One possibility is that they've quit on Martin. But since they are the only two, as far as I can see, who are playing well below potential, there is little evidence of a wider dressing room revolt. I dunno about you, but I don't think we should fire a coach because Cammy and Gio say so.

Another possibility is that Gio is simply slumping and that Cammy is playing hurt.

A third possibility is that these guys feast offensively on the momentum they get from scoring on the PP. So take the PP out of the equation and their overall offence begins to dry up.

Again: most of this stuff is not on JM.

Now, if the team falls 5-6 points back of 8th place, then - just as I said earlier in the year - I favour a firing, simply because desperate times call for desperate measures and ya gotta do something. Given that times are not desperate yet, and that there remains surprising little evidence that JM is the problem, AND that there are no obviously superior bilingual replacements, I do not think he should be fired.

I agree. I think for the most part we're just looking for emotional release.

For the record, I also agree that our Montreal team does need a francophone coach. The team is a creature, THE creature of La Belle Province and there should be some indication of this.

I look forward to the return of our superhero. And prior to our recent slump I was very impressed with the way the team was playing even on nights when we didn't qute get it done.

It's tough being a hockey player. Its tough being a fan. Life is tough. C'est la vie.

Go Habs Go!

[hab29RETIRED]

Agreed. But this team is a good coach away from competing with consistency and developing our youn players and getting the most out of the guys we have.

This team is not a good coach away from contending, as some hear think.

Many experts believe that JM gets as many points out of these teams as you are going to get. I suspect that is at least close to true. I am not convinced he can win in the playoffs because playoffs require adjustment and he tends to be to slow adjusting.

[Commandant]

Shame how our young players like Emelin and Eller aren't developping under this coach.

OH WAIT... they are much improved from the start of the year..

Just like Patches was last year... just like Price, Subban, Desharnais, White and the rest.

[C-Love]

Shame how our young players like Emelin and Eller aren't developping under this coach.

OH WAIT... they are much improved from the start of the year..

Just like Patches was last year... just like Price, Subban, Desharnais, White and the rest.

I think all players get better with experience, however they are not improving the team, we are playing much worse than last year, so if players are improving and the team is losing more, what does that say? I would suggest that there is something wrong with the system....and in turn the person who directs that system. I believe that much of our success last year was because of Kirk Muller, he is now gone and the team, which on paper is better than last year is playing worse. This is to me is confirmation that the team needs a change.

[BlueKross]

I am not arguing whether Martin should go or not. My worst fear is that he will take over the GM role as he did in Florida and we will get another 2-3 years of the same. I am content right now because we probably as close to a lottery pick as a playoff seat.

[hab29RETIRED]

Thy is revisionist history

Maxpac was rotting away under Martin and ripped Martin apart on how he was being used (which is what Eller has been going through). Maxpac got his confidence and developed in Hamilton and has played strong since.

Subban was rotting away on the bench while other karlson and fowler were being nurtured. He was finally given a chance to show what he could do when Markov, gorges and spacek all went down with injuries and martin had no choice to play him.

Emelin rotted in the pressbox until again injuries decimated the Habs defencemen and Martin HAD to play him.

Eller has consistently been underutilized and was probably paired with the guy that Martin obviously hates - AK46. The two have found chemistry but have been underutilized at the expense of Gionta and Cammy who are having lousy years. Martin also continues to put Eller as a winger, when he obviously is more comfortable at centre. Why??? So he can give 18-20 min a night and toll PP time to the $7m bum Gomez.

Weber is regressing under him. Palushaj and Leblanc playing with Noki and darche are a sign that Martin not only needs to be fired, but also needs a lobotomy. Do other teams waste their offensive prospects with scrubs??? If eberle, nugent-Hopkins or hall were rookies in Montreal, they would also be playing with nOkinand darche!!!!

Shame how our young players like Emelin and Eller aren't developping under this coach.

OH WAIT... they are much improved from the start of the year..

Just like Patches was last year... just like Price, Subban, Desharnais, White and the rest.

[Commandant]

Guys may not agree with the decisions that Martin makes.

A player may not like the way the coach is treating him. May not like the idea that he needs more AHL time, more practice time, and needs to be slowly integrated into the lineup. It doesn't mesh with their egos, it doesn't mesh with their competitiveness and the fact that they have been premier players for every hockey team they've ever been on since they were 5 years old. They critique the coach. They lash out. They hate being benched and someone slowing them down.

But at the end of the day, they are better players for the patient approach, rather than the "hand them everything on a silver platter" approach that was used with Ribeiro and Latendresse.

Pacioretty needed the AHL time to dominate on the first line and come back a scorer.... Martin recognized that.

Emelin needed the intense work in practice with Randy Ladoucer. Needed to learn to play his position and the new angles that North American Ice provided.... Martin recognized that.

Price needed a kick in the ass, and needed to see that he wasn't the only guy capable of stopping a puck.

Subban needed to slow things down, to not pinch on every play, to stop making silly mistakes.

All of these guys learned from their experience. They may not have enjoyed not being used, but it helped their careers.

Saying that its just coincidence, and that all of these players are succeeding in spite of the coach is fool hardy. If it was one guy, sure, but this is a massive list of guys developed and we can add to it guys like Redden and Bouwmeester who have never been the same without Martin around, and guys like Havlat, Hossa, Philips, Spezza, Chara, Meszaros, and numerous others who developped under him in Ottawa.

[hab29RETIRED]

I agree time shouldn't be handed on a silver platter. Long before maxpac got sent down I was saying what the he'll is he doing in the NHL and that he should be allowed to dominate in the AHL - I said that his first year as well. Same thing with Eller.

I said the same thing with Lats. Our young players are better swrved in the AHL then under Martin - that to me is an indictment on Martin. Other teams young players progress much faster then montreals. You have two extremes in Montreal. Treat young guys Luke that punk ribeiro was treated or handcuff a guy like Subban. He should be rushing more - not less. He has also looked worse on the PP with a year and a half of Martin then when he started.

The issue is Gill, Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, have all looked horrible for long stretches - how has Martin got them to respond.

Guys may not agree with the decisions that Martin makes.

A player may not like the way the coach is treating him. May not like the idea that he needs more AHL time, more practice time, and needs to be slowly integrated into the lineup. It doesn't mesh with their egos, it doesn't mesh with their competitiveness and the fact that they have been premier players for every hockey team they've ever been on since they were 5 years old. They critique the coach. They lash out. They hate being benched and someone slowing them down.

But at the end of the day, they are better players for the patient approach, rather than the "hand them everything on a silver platter" approach that was used with Ribeiro and Latendresse.

Pacioretty needed the AHL time to dominate on the first line and come back a scorer.... Martin recognized that.

Emelin needed the intense work in practice with Randy Ladoucer. Needed to learn to play his position and the new angles that North American Ice provided.... Martin recognized that.

Price needed a kick in the ass, and needed to see that he wasn't the only guy capable of stopping a puck.

Subban needed to slow things down, to not pinch on every play, to stop making silly mistakes.

All of these guys learned from their experience. They may not have enjoyed not being used, but it helped their careers.

Saying that its just coincidence, and that all of these players are succeeding in spite of the coach is fool hardy. If it was one guy, sure, but this is a massive list of guys developed and we can add to it guys like Redden and Bouwmeester who have never been the same without Martin around, and guys like Havlat, Hossa, Philips, Spezza, Chara, Meszaros, and numerous others who developped under him in Ottawa.

[Commandant]

Weber regressing is more a sign that Weber is simply not that good, than an indictment of coaching.... when we have 4 defensemen around him who are developing in Subban, Diaz, Emelin and St. Denis. Some guys are just not that good.

Also comparing our youngsters to 1st overall picks Taylor Hall and Ryan Nugent Hopkins is fool hardy. They were 1ST OVERALL picks for a reason, and that reason is talent.

Every team gives most of their young players AHL time, this isn't an indictment of the coach at all. The fact that RNH and Hall didn't need AHL time is more about how they are exceptions to the rule (as seen by their draft status), then the fact that they are progressing faster than guys under Martin.

[hab29RETIRED]

My point is not on guys needing AHL time - when the habs had lats and maxpax up too early, I had asked what the he'll were they on the team for??? Why wasn't maxpac sent down earlier????

My point is why are guys that are offensive guys being played by useless scrubs that don't belong in the NHL like darche?????? How is that putting them in a position to succeed????? Why does a bum lime Gomez get his minutes whe AK46 sits in the bench?????? Why is it that Cammy has looked worse in each year with the habs????? Why is it that this team consistently doesn't show up against bottom feeders when they are in a desperate situation that is getting worse whith each loss?????

You have teams like Anaheim that win and still can their coach, because the GM realizes that a different voice is needed. Then you have our coach and gm that have the same type of issues as the Habs had 5-6 years ago and they are still around.

Why is it that when other teams bring up a skilled young player, they get paired with guys that will help them succeed. In Montreal they get the friggin affirmative action guy darche.

Look at gardener under a lousy coach Wilson - gets decent ice and is allowed to do the things that made him successful. Martin would probably have tried to turn Guy Lafleur into a penalty killer.

Weber regressing is more a sign that Weber is simply not that good, than an indictment of coaching.... when we have 4 defensemen around him who are developing in Subban, Diaz, Emelin and St. Denis. Some guys are just not that good.

Also comparing our youngsters to 1st overall picks Taylor Hall and Ryan Nugent Hopkins is fool hardy. They were 1ST OVERALL picks for a reason, and that reason is talent.

Every team gives most of their young players AHL time, this isn't an indictment of the coach at all. The fact that RNH and Hall didn't need AHL time is more about how they are exceptions to the rule (as seen by their draft status), then the fact that they are progressing faster than guys under Martin.

[Colin]

Look at gardener under a lousy coach Wilson - gets decent ice and is allowed to do the things that made him successful. Martin would probably have tried to turn Guy Lafleur into a penalty killer.

This has been the problem with Montreal since the days of... well... Lafleur! The attack is not let loose at all, they have to be defensively aware 100% of the time with no creativity or consistent forechecking depth allowed. I get the need for prudence, but when you have guys who can make things happen, why not at least attempt a little more flamboyant style? Martin is so conservative it's like the Habs have a chastity belt. Let's maintain possession in the opposition zone and attack the net rather than a one-and-a-half man forecheck. Hell, if we're so fast, why not attack hard and just let the guys overtake the opposition on the back-check? I long for the days of Gainey - Carbo - and Nilan. You know, that "defensive" line that ragged the puck on a cycle in the attacking zone for entire shifts? Isn't that a far less risky defensive play than giving the opposition the puck and allowing them into your zone where anything can happen on any given play? Montreal is SO stuck on defence now they've all but forgotten what *actual* puck possession really is!

[Colin]

And for the record again, I'm not against Martin as coach, I just think he's turtling, has lost all ability to be creative and adaptable, and is playing not to lose. We have guys at the back who are garbage defensively (looking at you Weber) but who can pass the puck, so we should ostensibly have a transition game - which we DO NOT. And it's not gap control since the forwards are always back assisting the defence - unless maybe you can call it negative gap failure because everyone is too close... The players are so stuck trying to go to the square foot of ice they're required to be in that any kind of creativity is dead and therefore so is any consistent transition game. The opposition doesn't have to worry about anything unexpected from Montreal because it just doesn't exist!

[Willey101]

I wonder what sort of impact Martin has on youth. Pacioretty if you remember outright said he would rather spend a year in Hamilton then to play 4th line minutes.

Alot of the credits of the youth of this team was curtsy of Don lever. I mean Plekanec, Price, White, Kostitsyn all mentored by Lever. Then there is Pacioretty, Desharnais, Subban, who give credit to Boucher.

Are these players developed because of the tutelage of Martin or because of the tutelage of Hamilton?

As for Emelin I give mad props to gauthier for finally bringing in a D-man coach to help these kids. I see Ladouceur mentoring Emelin big time and always talking to him on the bench. it's great to see.

[brobin]

I am not a big fan of JM, but people need to consider if his current strategy is based on the fact that he knows he doesn't have a decent D back there.

How do you let your offense take risks with Diaz and Weber back there? Do we want to be the islanders?

Personally, when our D gets improved (either via injured players returning or an acquisition) AND we get some help up front, I don't know what more he can do. He is essentially trying to hang on by playing a stifling game. If our PP worked, we would be in better shape. I just don't think we have the horses. We are not Boston or Pittsburgh.

[illWill]

This has been the problem with Montreal since the days of... well... Lafleur! The attack is not let loose at all, they have to be defensively aware 100% of the time with no creativity or consistent forechecking depth allowed. I get the need for prudence, but when you have guys who can make things happen, why not at least attempt a little more flamboyant style? Martin is so conservative it's like the Habs have a chastity belt. Let's maintain possession in the opposition zone and attack the net rather than a one-and-a-half man forecheck. Hell, if we're so fast, why not attack hard and just let the guys overtake the opposition on the back-check? I long for the days of Gainey - Carbo - and Nilan. You know, that "defensive" line that ragged the puck on a cycle in the attacking zone for entire shifts? Isn't that a far less risky defensive play than giving the opposition the puck and allowing them into your zone where anything can happen on any given play? Montreal is SO stuck on defence now they've all but forgotten what *actual* puck possession really is!

And for the record again, I'm not against Martin as coach, I just think he's turtling, has lost all ability to be creative and adaptable, and is playing not to lose. We have guys at the back who are garbage defensively (looking at you Weber) but who can pass the puck, so we should ostensibly have a transition game - which we DO NOT. And it's not gap control since the forwards are always back assisting the defence - unless maybe you can call it negative gap failure because everyone is too close... The players are so stuck trying to go to the square foot of ice they're required to be in that any kind of creativity is dead and therefore so is any consistent transition game. The opposition doesn't have to worry about anything unexpected from Montreal because it just doesn't exist!

YESSSSSS!!!! I don't think I have agreed so much on a post before. This is exactly what is going on. I watch alot of hockey and the Habs are probably the most boring and predictable team to watch. I want to pull my eyeballs out. They have no breakout despite having some decent puck movers in the back. The forwards are actually standing still when they receive a pass.....way to use that speed we have. What's the good of having team speed if they aren't always moving their feet? Better chip it out and change instead, then sit back and play defense....hoping the other team makes a mistake. The successful teams are busting their ass and pursuing the puck and fore-checking. The Habs are worried about being in the right position and clogging up lanes. There are so many times that you could throw a blanket over all 5 Habs at one time, they are so close to eachother.

I used to be on the fence on whether or not to fire Martin. He is a good coach despite what the masses are saying. But I don't know how many more snooze fests I can bare to watch. It never used to be this bad. It is more tolerable when they are putting up wins but even then it still sucks. When you have a top 5 goalie in the world, you should use that to your advantage and cheat a bit more offensively, not sit back and protect him like he is a peewee house league goalie. Just for entertainment purposes I would like a new coach behind the bench, it can't be any worse.

[KamalPanesar]

Mayan End of Days prediction.......

Rosicrucian philosophy.

Tsunami

And of course Mass boredom although I think that one may be a valid argument

Hah...good call on the boredom.

[BTH]

This has been the problem with Montreal since the days of... well... Lafleur! The attack is not let loose at all, they have to be defensively aware 100% of the time with no creativity or consistent forechecking depth allowed. I get the need for prudence, but when you have guys who can make things happen, why not at least attempt a little more flamboyant style? Martin is so conservative it's like the Habs have a chastity belt. Let's maintain possession in the opposition zone and attack the net rather than a one-and-a-half man forecheck. Hell, if we're so fast, why not attack hard and just let the guys overtake the opposition on the back-check? I long for the days of Gainey - Carbo - and Nilan. You know, that "defensive" line that ragged the puck on a cycle in the attacking zone for entire shifts? Isn't that a far less risky defensive play than giving the opposition the puck and allowing them into your zone where anything can happen on any given play? Montreal is SO stuck on defence now they've all but forgotten what *actual* puck possession really is!

I don't think sitting back is Jacques Martin's game plan though, he's always said he wants the Habs to be a puck possession team. It's just that with Markov out, this defence sucks and the Habs have to either run and gun, hoping they'll outscore the other teams (don't see it happening) or go into a defensive shell, relying on their PP and goaltending. With a full line up, they're a deep team. Right now, their D isn't playoff team quality. The only way to disguise that is to play all out team defence. Attacking more will probably just expose Diaz and Weber even more.

This is about when Gauthier trades a 2nd rounder for a #4 d-man.