Who would you pick as a long term coach?

[hab29RETIRED]

Great player = great coach

Tell that to Maurice Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion, Wayne Gretzky, and numerous other great players who were absolute failures as coaches.

Yeah, except unlike those other guys, who had ZERO coaching experience, you conviniently keep forgetting that Robinson paid his dues as an assistant (like Muller), went on to become a successful head coach, but suffered from anxieity and nervousness, and didn't want to be a head coach anymore. He has a proven track record of helping young players like Blake, Neidemeyer, sydor, zhitnik develop as elite defenceman. He was EXACTLY what the habs needed when he came knocking on Gainey's door and was treated like shit!

I think Vigneault was a great coach in Montreal. As you say the team that Houle put together was an absolute joke. Vigneault got that team to overachieve. The roster they had should have been picking 1st overall in his years.

That said, I agree we shouldn't hire another rookie coach... I'm sick of being the breeding ground for everyone else's coach.

Botton line is the team was shit. I think he was a promising coach - not a great coach and learned from the experience and also went back to minors/juniors to hone his craft and improve.

[Commandant]

There is a big difference in giving a guy a chance before he is ready and having a guy fail and learn from his mistakes until he succeeds. Julian was also fired by the devils. And even though he totally out coached Martin last year, the bruins don't win the cup without help from the NHL officiating slant.

Even though I love Bylsma's style, it also helped inheriting a loaded lineup - much like Perron inherited in 1986. the difference is that Bylsma is actually a ggod coach.

I don't disagree with that.

Doesn't change the fact that we fire coaches before or during their third season as if on queue. I bet no matter who we hire, vet or rookie we'll be having this same thread in less than 3 years.

[Habsy]

I don't disagree with that.

Doesn't change the fact that we fire coaches before or during their third season as if on queue. I bet no matter who we hire, vet or rookie we'll be having this same thread in less than 3 years.

Honestly, who cares? That's the point of these silly websites. You seem to be banging away on several of them.

[Commandant]

Honestly, who cares? That's the point of these silly websites. You seem to be banging away on several of them.

The point is to share and exchange opinions.

Hey, if you don't like mine, you don't have to read it....

I'll even make it easy for you.... http://forums.habswo...ea=ignoredusers

[Habsy]

So you do get it ? Wasn't sure, you didn't seem to.

[JoeLassister]

Please not Hartley. Can't stand this guy. He sounds like a freaking moron that I'd punch in the face everyday on tv.

I'd rather have a rookie coach than him.

[dlbalr]

If we pick a rookie coach, I'd rather go with Gerard Gallant.

Gallant isn't a rookie though. He coached Columbus for 147 games from 2003-04 to 2006-07.

[Commandant]

Gallant isn't a rookie though. He coached Columbus for 147 games from 2003-04 to 2006-07.

Thanks all the better then. I really like the job he's done with St. John.

So you do get it ? Wasn't sure, you didn't seem to.

And I'll debate opinions all day....

And there is a difference between attacking an opinion and attacking a person. You are very close to crossing that line. You've been hinting at having a problem with me for a while. If you don't like my opinions, I'm not forcing you to read them.

[Habsy]

Thanks all the better then. I really like the job he's done with St. Johns.

And I'll debate opinions all day....

And there is a difference between attacking an opinion and attacking a person. You are very close to crossing that line.

I have no problem with being close to any line. The idea that the fan base is all nuts, and that this is going go happen again is like saying the ski is blue. That's the nature of these websites. It's also why the cliche coaches are hired to be fired exists.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I have no problem with being close to any line. The idea that the fan base is all nuts, and that this is going go happen again is like saying the ski is blue. That's the nature of these websites. It's also why the cliche coaches are hired to be fired exists.

The point, like I say in the other thread, that JM was a good coach not a great one, and his replacement will (probably) be the same. I'd say there is a better chance of his replacement being a bozo than being a great coach, but the odds are that we end up with another guy drawn from the sizeable pool of 'decent-to-good' NHL coaches. This means we will likely gain a new set of strengths and weaknesses. Within a year or two, the fans will be obssessing over the weaknesses, just as they did with JM. Short term, this move will probably help; other than that it is likely a lateral move.

[Commandant]

I have no problem with being close to any line. The idea that the fan base is all nuts, and that this is going go happen again is like saying the ski is blue. That's the nature of these websites. It's also why the cliche coaches are hired to be fired exists.

Maybe i've misread your other posts and if I have I apologize. But it has seemed like you've been on me for at least a couple weeks now.

or did i misinterpret the little jabs of

"You seem to be banging away on several of them."

"So you do get it ? Wasn't sure, you didn't seem to."

[SOOPAVILLIN]

If Tremblay is even interviewed, for the position my 24 years of religously watching the Habs will be done. He made stop watching for a whole season last time he was hear.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

If Tremblay is even interviewed, for the position my 24 years of religously watching the Habs will be done. He made stop watching for a whole season last time he was hear.

Oh, I agree that Tremblay as coach was the second-worst thing ever to happen to this organization - the first being the hiring of that blithering incompetent Houle as GM. The thing is, Tremblay was hired here with absolutely zero experience or qualifications. After that debacle, he spent years learning the trade under the impressive Jacques Lemaire. He is now vastly more qualified and probably a good deal wiser. I conclude that he would actually be a good coach now. But I'm talking sheer hockey terms here, not in terms of the emotion-laden melodrama that goes with the Habs. In hockey terms, he would be a reasonable hire. In emotional terms, he would be untenable.

[Commandant]

Oh, I agree that Tremblay as coach was the second-worst thing ever to happen to this organization - the first being the hiring of that blithering incompetent Houle as GM. The thing is, Tremblay was hired here with absolutely zero experience or qualifications. After that debacle, he spent years learning the trade under the impressive Jacques Lemaire. He is now vastly more qualified and probably a good deal wiser. I conclude that he would actually be a good coach now. But I'm talking sheer hockey terms here, not in terms of the emotion-laden melodrama that goes with the Habs. In hockey terms, he would be a reasonable hire. In emotional terms, he would be untenable.

Tremblay is clearly a better x's and o's hockey guy today than he was when he coached the habs.

However the issue was his personality and how it clashed with our star players.... has that changed? I don't get the impression that it has.

Has his short fuse been lengthened? I don't know that he would be a good choice for this environment.

[Habsy]

Ok, Commandant, I'll apologize as well. Maybe it was a dig. Directing me to an ignore feature didn't come across as someone who's interested in debate. For the record, I'm not jumping up and down at the firing. My reaction was, wow, Gauthier did it. One other thing. Imagine if Cunneyworth does well. But still get's replaced because of language. We'd be laughed at by the planet.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ok, Commandant, I'll apologize as well. Maybe it was a dig. Directing me to an ignore feature didn't come across as someone who's interested in debate. For the record, I'm not jumping up and down at the firing. My reaction was, wow, Gauthier did it. One other thing. Imagine if Cunneyworth does well. But still get's replaced because of language. We'd be the laughed at by the planet.

This Martin issue has led to a lot of intemperate exchanges on this site, which is too bad.

We are setting ourselves up for an awkward situation with Cunneyworth. Imagine if the players love him and the team does well. None of that will matter for the fuming French press, and in the longer term this will become a PR catastrophe. So then what? You fire a coach the players love and play well for? Boy, that's some way to attract UFAs, retain RFAs and keep the team strong, eh? The potential is here for a real test of Molson's cohones. And imagine if the Nordiques come back!!

For the record I am NOT advocating that we hire Tremblay! But it is another small case where rational analysis becomes impossible because of the heavy emotional freight of this franchise, something I'm getting increasingly irked about as I get older and crankier.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The whole thing is a joke. As I say, JM was no genius and it's possible his replacement will do just as well or better. But the idea that the guy who had the team playing very well at even strength, keeping SA to league lows and the PK and shot-blocking at league highs was an abject disaster as a coach is simply ridiculous. Unless we get really lucky and hire a Dan Byslma, most of the same fans who were hysterical about JM will be probably hysterical about his replacement within two years. It's just like Vancouver, where fans are attacking Vigneault because they've lost two in a row to bad teams and it is OBVIOUS he should be giving more minutes to Cody Hodgson. Until the team actually started losing games with Schneider in nets, it was equally OBVIOUS that stupid old Vigneault should bench Luongo.

The real problem is simple. This team has not won a Stanley Cup. Until that magical moment happens, whoever coaches this team is on borrowed time before he becomes the scapegoat. Coaches here must inevitably be sacrificed to the angry gods of the Habs fanbase/media. None of this has anything to do with hockey analysis. Sad but true.

I am one of the most (selfly proclaimed) patient habs fans out there and even I was ready for a coaching change. What I'm not necessarily happy about is that we replaced Jacques Martin with another individual from within the same system. As for talking about the fanbase wanting the head of the next coach after his first losing streak I don't necessarily see this as being true. The fans who you are talking about watched Jacques Martin implement his very specific system. While we were winning, especially in the playoffs, the system was great. When losing however, not only did we not pick up any points, the entertainment value was simply horrendous. Should a coach be fired simply because the system he implements is not attractive to the fanbase? Certainly not. Is the constant moaning from the fanbase understandable in such a scenario? I personally think so.

What is important to note here is not the fact that we were losing games because even as you have mentioned, the habs are only a couple of points out of the playoffs. What was even more troubling was the manner in which we won games. In the recent past not only was I upset with the team after losses, but even after wins I did not get that fulfilling feeling that we necessarily even deserved to win. The vibe just wasn't right and I could tell that Martin had a lot to do with it. The powerplay has been better and is sure to continue, however, it was already good under Jacques Martin. This was not the reason for his firing so I see bringing up Kaberle's signing as a relatively moot point. Despite Kaberle's addition we were still winning and losing ugly. Jacques Martin is certainly a competent coach with a decent track record but his time ran out here. Would we have made the playoffs with him behind the bench? I actually think so. But I still see this firing as the right move. Regardless of your perception of the fanbase and their irrationality it seems that a professional in Pierre Gauthier agreed with these same fans. If they were actually irrational then this would certainly be a frightening reality but from my perspective while there have been fans who have been calling for JM's head for the longest of times, the time was finally now. Gauthier got it right.

As for throwing up potential candidates for the next coaching job, I'm not very original on the topic. If we have to hire a coach who is bilingual though, my pick would be Marc Crawford. I actually think he would do a very good job in these parts. To be completely honest, he might be my choice regardless of the language factor. Craig Mctavish is certainly a good call too though for sure.

[SOOPAVILLIN]

Sadly Crawford is probably the best fit for now. Hartley is too much like Keenan and everyone else is too inexperienced. Maybe Cunneyworth will do a good job, but sadly rookie nhl coaches don't generally do good here.

I would be doing anything to get Roy as a assistant here for now, cause if we do end up hiring a young rookie coach, he more then exceeds requirements. Also that would be huge for Price.

[hab29RETIRED]

Oh, I agree that Tremblay as coach was the second-worst thing ever to happen to this organization - the first being the hiring of that blithering incompetent Houle as GM. The thing is, Tremblay was hired here with absolutely zero experience or qualifications. After that debacle, he spent years learning the trade under the impressive Jacques Lemaire. He is now vastly more qualified and probably a good deal wiser. I conclude that he would actually be a good coach now. But I'm talking sheer hockey terms here, not in terms of the emotion-laden melodrama that goes with the Habs. In hockey terms, he would be a reasonable hire. In emotional terms, he would be untenable.

funny you say that, because its pretty strange how no other team in the league would agree with you.

[Commandant]

Ok, Commandant, I'll apologize as well. Maybe it was a dig. Directing me to an ignore feature didn't come across as someone who's interested in debate. For the record, I'm not jumping up and down at the firing. My reaction was, wow, Gauthier did it. One other thing. Imagine if Cunneyworth does well. But still get's replaced because of language. We'd be laughed at by the planet.

I accept the apology.... I'm all good debating opinions, and like i said, if it wasn't your intention i apologize. Sometimes hard to read these things as the board has no inflection, no subtlety of language, just words.

As for Cunneyworth, the sad part is that its 95% certain he will be fired one day... its just a matter of when. On that day, some members of the media will say "Cunneyworth was always the wrong choice, this market needs a francophone coach."

Its not right, I don't agree with it, but I agree with the person who said it will become an issue one day.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

XXX, great post. Personally I don't give a rat's ass about entertainment value, but rather about winning; this may be part of the reason for my inability to comprehend fan rage at Martin.

The best argument for canning Martin is this:

"What system is in place doesn't matter if everyone buys in and plays the right way," said defenceman Josh Gorges. "If you only have half the guys doing what's asked of them, everything is in disarray and I think that's where we got to." As per TSN.

There has been suspicion for a while that JM lost key vets (Gio, Gomer, AK, and Cammy being leading suspects). This pretty much settles that question, and there would be something Quixotic about doggedly keeping a coach in place who had lost the room. The suprising thing is that the Habs did so well on several indicators of good coaching despite this. It seems that he got really deep buy-in from some guys, but that his non-converts really hardened against him this season. All told, the fairest verdict would appear to be: 'good coach, passed his best-before date.'

(I wonder how much the departure of Hammer tilted the balance against JM?)

[Habsy]

Intemperate language Mr. Cucumber? I've needed a dictionary to fully comprehend your posts lately!!

[hab29RETIRED]

XXX, great post. Personally I don't give a rat's ass about entertainment value, but rather about winning; this may be part of the reason for my inability to comprehend fan rage at Martin.

The best argument for canning Martin is this:

"What system is in place doesn't matter if everyone buys in and plays the right way," said defenceman Josh Gorges. "If you only have half the guys doing what's asked of them, everything is in disarray and I think that's where we got to." As per TSN.

There has been suspicion for a while that JM lost key vets (Gio, Gomer, AK, and Cammy being leading suspects). This pretty much settles that question, and there would be something Quixotic about doggedly keeping a coach in place who had lost the room. The suprising thing is that the Habs did so well on several indicators of good coaching despite this. It seems that he got really deep buy-in from some guys, but that his non-converts really hardened against him this season. All told, the fairest verdict would appear to be: 'good coach, passed his best-before date.'

(I wonder how much the departure of Hammer tilted the balance against JM?)

have you seen the hammer play this year? WIth the exception of the first 10 games he has been horrible and a healthy scratch in Washington. he only had like 1 point and is a minus player. Definatly not someone you would want around this year, let alone for another year.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

have you seen the hammer play this year? WIth the exception of the first 10 games he has been horrible and a healthy scratch in Washington. he only had like 1 point and is a minus player. Definatly not someone you would want around this year, let alone for another year.

You misunderstand me. I'm talking about Hammer in the locker room, as a leader promoting buy-in into JM's system. Hammer on the ice is another story.

[DON]

^{MacTavish, Carlyle, Crawford or Quinn would be on my list and Roy would for sure be the total opposite of Martin and i would be very curious if he would either be offered or would accept the job? He would be entertaining for sure.}

^{Can Molson go strictly anglophone coach without boycott of their main product, unlikely? C Cucumber is correct and the rabid french media/politicians are the main hinderance to picking a coach from a list which 29 other teams get to choose from.}

^{That was my main beef with hiring Martin , not that he was a terrible coach (not bad nor good), but that he was just the best of a very very short list of options, when there seemed to be a bunch of better options on the market, but they are not bi-lingual.}

^{But coach of year 1 year gets fired the very next and that is just the way sports teams are run i suppose. Just win baby and all is good.}