Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
REV-G

Don't wait for spring.....do it now!

Recommended Posts

Keep Dreaming Mike Milbury doesn't run the Islanders anymore. You are basically giving up 2 players that can barely crack our lineup and a UFA who averages 40 points a season for two top 6 fowards one of which should probably be an all-star.

For now I would just focus on trying to get whatever picks we can get for our impending free agents. This would include Kostitsyn and Moen unless we are able to resign them for a reasonable price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trade Kostitsyn, Weber & Nokelainen to NYI for Matt Moulson & P.A Parenteau. Then trade Kaberle & Palushai to Edmonton for L. Smid. Trade Campolli for a pick once Markov gets back. We look like this Desharnais, Pacoiretty, Cole- Plekanec, Bourque, Parenteau- Gomez, Moulson, Moen- Eller, White, Blunden (Darche)

D- Suppan-Smid

Georges- Markov

Gill Diaz & Emelin

Neither of those would ever happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kostitsyn, Weber and Nokelainen for Moulson and parenteau......love that.

I would trade Darche and a pick to Nashville for Tootoo, then trade Tootoo to Toronto for Boazk. Then trade Bozak to Phoenix for Torres. Then Trade Torres to LA for Stoll. Then trade Stoll to Detroit for Val Filpulla, Then trade Filpulla to Columbus for Carter and then trade Carter to Piitsburgh for Staal.

Essentially trade Darche for Staal !!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep Dreaming Mike Milbury doesn't run the Islanders anymore. You are basically giving up 2 players that can barely crack our lineup and a UFA who averages 40 points a season for two top 6 fowards one of which should probably be an all-star.

For now I would just focus on trying to get whatever picks we can get for our impending free agents. This would include Kostitsyn and Moen unless we are able to resign them for a reasonable price.

Unfortunately AK is in the middle of one of his yearly disappearing act,2 goals in his last 17 games. That and being a UFA means you won't get much for this widely known inconsistent player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trade Kostitsyn, Weber & Nokelainen to NYI for Matt Moulson & P.A Parenteau. Then trade Kaberle & Palushai to Edmonton for L. Smid. Trade Campolli for a pick once Markov gets back. We look like this Desharnais, Pacoiretty, Cole- Plekanec, Bourque, Parenteau- Gomez, Moulson, Moen- Eller, White, Blunden (Darche)

D- Suppan-Smid

Georges- Markov

Gill Diaz & Emelin

Another post that thinks teams are going to give us good players for our crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another post that thinks teams are going to give us good players for our crap.

Maybe we can trade gauthier to one of those teams and then once that is done make the necessary trades.

So let's send gauthier back to Anaheim and then let's move forward

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we can trade gauthier to one of those teams and then once that is done make the necessary trades.

So let's send gauthier back to Anaheim and then let's move forward

Nothing gets solved if Gainey is still here.I can't stand Gauthier,but he's a scapegoat for Gainey IMO,who I believe is heavily involved in every decision,if not in charge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing gets solved if Gainey is still here.I can't stand Gauthier,but he's a scapegoat for Gainey IMO,who I believe is heavily involved in every decision,if not in charge

But what's that based on? Gainey said he needed to step back. Considering the personal trauma he went through in addition to the terribly disappointing outcome of the team he patiently assembled (the 2009 team) and a brutal rupture with a life-long friend in Carbo, I think the probabilities support him doing what he said he was going to do, i.e., advise and play a role, but accept a reduced role. Beyond that, the confusion emitted from Gauthier's office this season is not what we were accustomed to seeing from Bob. (Not saying Gainey was a genius, just that he tended to operate with a sort of dogged, principled consistency, the exact opposite of what Gauthier has done this year). The blame here lies with either Gauthier or Molson IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But what's that based on? Gainey said he needed to step back. Considering the personal trauma he went through in addition to the terribly disappointing outcome of the team he patiently assembled (the 2009 team) and a brutal rupture with a life-long friend in Carbo, I think the probabilities support him doing what he said he was going to do, i.e., advise and play a role, but accept a reduced role. Beyond that, the confusion emitted from Gauthier's office this season is not what we were accustomed to seeing from Bob. (Not saying Gainey was a genius, just that he tended to operate with a sort of dogged, principled consistency, the exact opposite of what Gauthier has done this year). The blame here lies with either Gauthier or Molson IMHO.

I agree 100%; I see huge differences between the Gainey and Gauthier regimes.

Under Gainey there was a plan, there was definite direction in where he wanted this team to go, and what moves he was gonna make to get it there. There was little to no panic moves. There was little to no caving to media and fan pressure. When the media criticized Koivu, he came out and said "Koivu is a champion, he does everything like a Champion, he plays like a Champion, he practices like a Champion, he even eats breakfast like a Champion." Then we had the brisebois situation where he critiqued the fans for booing him. However despite this plan, the execution was a problem, there were many questionable hockey moves as far as trade value went, such as Ribeiro, Gomez trades or FA signings such as Samsonov.

Under Gauthier, I see a lot of trades and moves which if taken in a vacuum show the team getting good value in return for the assets given up. That part of the operation has improved. But there is no plan, no direction, a ton of panic moves, and caving to media and fan pressures.

Each guy had problems, but they are not the same problems.

That said, Gauthier needs to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree 100%; I see huge differences between the Gainey and Gauthier regimes.

Under Gainey there was a plan, there was definite direction in where he wanted this team to go, and what moves he was gonna make to get it there. There was little to no panic moves. There was little to no caving to media and fan pressure. When the media criticized Koivu, he came out and said "Koivu is a champion, he does everything like a Champion, he plays like a Champion, he practices like a Champion, he even eats breakfast like a Champion." Then we had the brisebois situation where he critiqued the fans for booing him. However despite this plan, the execution was a problem, there were many questionable hockey moves as far as trade value went, such as Ribeiro, Gomez trades or FA signings such as Samsonov.

Under Gauthier, I see a lot of trades and moves which if taken in a vacuum show the team getting good value in return for the assets given up. That part of the operation has improved. But there is no plan, no direction, a ton of panic moves, and caving to media and fan pressures.

Each guy had problems, but they are not the same problems.

That said, Gauthier needs to go.

Well said. And I agree, Gauthier has no vision, which, in my opinion, is a worse failing than having a plan but tripping up in the execution. Axe him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree 100%; I see huge differences between the Gainey and Gauthier regimes.

Under Gainey there was a plan, there was definite direction in where he wanted this team to go, and what moves he was gonna make to get it there. There was little to no panic moves. There was little to no caving to media and fan pressure. When the media criticized Koivu, he came out and said "Koivu is a champion, he does everything like a Champion, he plays like a Champion, he practices like a Champion, he even eats breakfast like a Champion." Then we had the brisebois situation where he critiqued the fans for booing him. However despite this plan, the execution was a problem, there were many questionable hockey moves as far as trade value went, such as Ribeiro, Gomez trades or FA signings such as Samsonov.

Under Gauthier, I see a lot of trades and moves which if taken in a vacuum show the team getting good value in return for the assets given up. That part of the operation has improved. But there is no plan, no direction, a ton of panic moves, and caving to media and fan pressures.

Each guy had problems, but they are not the same problems.

That said, Gauthier needs to go.

Going to agree to disagree. He says that about Koivu,then dumps him and acquires Gomez. A PG-type move. Offers Komi almost the same $$ as TO did. And then dumps Carbo in almost the same manner as Jm got dumped.They were/are awful GMs and have worked together for 8+yrs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree 100%; I see huge differences between the Gainey and Gauthier regimes.

Under Gainey there was a plan, there was definite direction in where he wanted this team to go, and what moves he was gonna make to get it there. There was little to no panic moves. There was little to no caving to media and fan pressure. When the media criticized Koivu, he came out and said "Koivu is a champion, he does everything like a Champion, he plays like a Champion, he practices like a Champion, he even eats breakfast like a Champion." Then we had the brisebois situation where he critiqued the fans for booing him. However despite this plan, the execution was a problem, there were many questionable hockey moves as far as trade value went, such as Ribeiro, Gomez trades or FA signings such as Samsonov.

Under Gauthier, I see a lot of trades and moves which if taken in a vacuum show the team getting good value in return for the assets given up. That part of the operation has improved. But there is no plan, no direction, a ton of panic moves, and caving to media and fan pressures.

Each guy had problems, but they are not the same problems.

That said, Gauthier needs to go.

I support 100% of Gauthier moves besides coach hiring and firings, decisions that I believe Molson imposed on him. It's mainly those coaching decisions that make people suspect he has no plan. Subtract firing Martin and Gauthier has been a better GM than Gainey was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I support 100% of Gauthier moves besides coach hiring and firings, decisions that I believe Molson imposed on him. It's mainly those coaching decisions that make people suspect he has no plan. Subtract firing Martin and Gauthier has been a better GM than Gainey was.

The trading of Cammalleri was also suspect. Again good return based on Cammalleri's play this season, and this season only... but just the timing of it, all wrong.

Also if forced to fire Martin, then fine, fire him... but don't apologize to the media for hiring the guy.

His no speaking to the media except for rare occassions stance also hurts him, and the club, as they allow narratives to spin out of control without quashing them early like Gainey did with Brisebois and Koivu.

Again, I like the hockey moves he's making, but the management game seems off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Gauthier has a phobia of the media?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I support 100% of Gauthier moves besides coach hiring and firings, decisions that I believe Molson imposed on him. It's mainly those coaching decisions that make people suspect he has no plan. Subtract firing Martin and Gauthier has been a better GM than Gainey was.

Huh? Gainey made few bad decisions IMO...Gauthier has been brutal and frankly is one of the most overrated executives in the game. He was awful before coming here and has been awful since arriving. The trades have been ridiculous and listless. The signings brutal. The PR brutal. The lack of leadership is beyond bad. WHAT has he done well???

Him aside the Habs long term problem remains prospect development...they draft well and, aside from blue chip prospects, they have no player development plan. I don't blame Gauthier alone for this since it's been happening for 2 decades.

The 2nd long term issue is media influence over personnel decisions...another decades long problem that real leadership can resolve...

The organization is broken. Rebuild it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The trading of Cammalleri was also suspect. Again good return based on Cammalleri's play this season, and this season only... but just the timing of it, all wrong.

The timing was 'wrong' from an asset maximization standpoint. But much more important, it seems to me, is that we had fired a coach just a few weeks earlier to accommodate players, of which Cammy was first in line, who had quit on Martin. This is what I mean by no vision, no plan. If you're gonna fire the coach to accommodate players you don't go and then trade the player at his lowest value. You commit to one or the other.

It's easy to lose sight of this fundamental incoherence in getting caught up with the minutae of the trade (which, on its own terms, wasn't terrible). In context, though, the trade looks like sheer reactive GMing. Same thing with the Kaberle deal followed immediately by the Martin firing. You acquire a guy to help the coach, then right away can the coach? Gibberish. The guy is flying completely by the seat of his pants and has to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh? Gainey made few bad decisions IMO...Gauthier has been brutal and frankly is one of the most overrated executives in the game. He was awful before coming here and has been awful since arriving. The trades have been ridiculous and listless. The signings brutal. The PR brutal. The lack of leadership is beyond bad. WHAT has he done well???

Him aside the Habs long term problem remains prospect development...they draft well and, aside from blue chip prospects, they have no player development plan. I don't blame Gauthier alone for this since it's been happening for 2 decades.

The 2nd long term issue is media influence over personnel decisions...another decades long problem that real leadership can resolve...

The organization is broken. Rebuild it all.

Which moves have been so bad

Is it the trades that you mention? I mean moves like

Eller and Shulz for Halak

O'Byrne for Bournival

2nd round pick for James Wisniewski

Bourque and Prospect + 2nd for Cammy and Ramo and 5th

Signings like Erik Cole

These have been brutal??

The timing was 'wrong' from an asset maximization standpoint. But much more important, it seems to me, is that we had fired a coach just a few weeks earlier to accommodate players, of which Cammy was first in line, who had quit on Martin. This is what I mean by no vision, no plan. If you're gonna fire the coach to accommodate players you don't go and then trade the player at his lowest value. You commit to one or the other.

It's easy to lose sight of this fundamental incoherence in getting caught up with the minutae of the trade (which, on its own terms, wasn't terrible). In context, though, the trade looks like sheer reactive GMing. Same thing with the Kaberle deal followed immediately by the Martin firing. You acquire a guy to help the coach, then right away can the coach? Gibberish. The guy is flying completely by the seat of his pants and has to go.

This I agree completely with... the overall structure and plan is broken.

I just think the deals taken individually all make sense... not the Martin firing, I was against that strongly... but the two trades are good value I think.

The lack of direction seals his fate though. He's acquiring lots of pieces but not putting a puzzle together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which moves have been so bad

Is it the trades that you mention? I mean moves like

Eller and Shulz for Halak

O'Byrne for Bournival

2nd round pick for James Wisniewski

Bourque and Prospect + 2nd for Cammy and Ramo and 5th

Signings like Erik Cole

These have been brutal??

This I agree completely with... the overall structure and plan is broken.

I just think the deals taken individually all make sense... not the Martin firing, I was against that strongly... but the two trades are good value I think.

The lack of direction seals his fate though. He's acquiring lots of pieces but not putting a puzzle together.

You're in a very,very small minority as a gauthier supporter. look at the standings,LOL.

But what's that based on? Gainey said he needed to step back. Considering the personal trauma he went through in addition to the terribly disappointing outcome of the team he patiently assembled (the 2009 team) and a brutal rupture with a life-long friend in Carbo, I think the probabilities support him doing what he said he was going to do, i.e., advise and play a role, but accept a reduced role. Beyond that, the confusion emitted from Gauthier's office this season is not what we were accustomed to seeing from Bob. (Not saying Gainey was a genius, just that he tended to operate with a sort of dogged, principled consistency, the exact opposite of what Gauthier has done this year). The blame here lies with either Gauthier or Molson IMHO.

Gauthier was Gaineys asst for 6 years,and now BG is Gauthiers "advisor" for the last two. They both need to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, if you think I'm a Gauthier supporter, you really need to read that again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which moves have been so bad

Is it the trades that you mention? I mean moves like

Eller and Shulz for Halak

O'Byrne for Bournival

2nd round pick for James Wisniewski

Bourque and Prospect + 2nd for Cammy and Ramo and 5th

Signings like Erik Cole

These have been brutal??

First, I think you are cherry picking the items you want to spin the conversation...

Second, I said is trades have been listless and ridiculous...there is an overall lack of vision which has been discussed ad nauseum.

The return on Halak was "okay"...which is fine.

Trading a 2nd round pick on a rental defenseman is nonsense IMHO...it was a short term solution for a team that was not legit. It was made in a bubble.

I could care less about the O'Byrne deal...it doesn't support the debate in any way.

The Bourque deal is NOT a good return. Cammy's upside is significantly higher then Bourques...and we can argue about the extra pick and the prospect change (Holland is hardly a stellar pick and Ramos is probably worth a little more).

Why not talk about resigning a broken d-man too? I love Markov when healthy but signing a guy who can't play to big dollars is something he should be on the block for...

Why not talk about the Kaberle deal and it's salary implications?

Why not talk about the PR mess they are in due to his lack of leadership?

etc

etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been good moves and questionable ones. Nobody is perfect.

I'll disagree with you the Cammi deal, Bourque has outperformed him the last 2 years. Those are facts, Bourque is bigger, tougher and is a part of what the habs desperatley need. the gave up a goalie who would never play in Montreal. A decent prospect and a 2nd. I think you could argue they could have a first.

Cammi does have better potential, but he didn't live up to his potential.

I liked the O'Byrne move, Bournival is going to be a decent 3rd liner. He also adds soem grit and a little offense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I think you are cherry picking the items you want to spin the conversation...

Second, I said is trades have been listless and ridiculous...there is an overall lack of vision which has been discussed ad nauseum.

The return on Halak was "okay"...which is fine.

The decision on Price vs Halak was also correct. Halak still has the same problems he had in Montreal... good goalie but can't start more than 50 games in a season. Price is a thoroughbred going 65-75 games.

Trading a 2nd round pick on a rental defenseman is nonsense IMHO...it was a short term solution for a team that was not legit. It was made in a bubble.

Without Wiz, we don't make the playoffs last year. No doubt about that in my mind. None whatsoever.Note that this is a business... I'm sure the 6-9 million in playoff revenue is useful for something in terms of helping this team going forward.

Also what are the intangible benefits to the playoff experience that subban, eller, price, desharnais, weber, white, recieved in this series?

What are the benefits of being a playoff team in the eyes of UFA Erik Cole, and other UFAs?

None of this goes into your analysis though, we didnt' win the cup; therefore trading a pick is bad. Guess what 29 teams don't win the cup, and many of them trade picks and prospects.

I could care less about the O'Byrne deal...it doesn't support the debate in any way.

Okay, so the trade that you don't like we'll just erase from the ledger as if it didn't happen?

Why? Because you say its not relevant to the assessment of a GM? But the deal where we trade a 2nd for a Dman is relevant. Inherrent contradiction in your post.

The Bourque deal is NOT a good return. Cammy's upside is significantly higher then Bourques...and we can argue about the extra pick and the prospect change (Holland is hardly a stellar pick and Ramos is probably worth a little more).

I think Ramo has almost 0 value with the NHL goalies available and the fact he's not leaving Europe unless you guarantee him starter money and a starter's job. On top of that Bourque has outrproduced Cammalleri. The timing of the deal is all wrong, but the actual assets returned considering Cammy's contract and the way he's playing were very fair value. I just wish we didn't trade him when his value was at its lowest point.

Why not talk about resigning a broken d-man too? I love Markov when healthy but signing a guy who can't play to big dollars is something he should be on the block for...

Last I checked, the GM's job is not to be a doctor. The team doctor's job is to be a doctor. The team doctor told PG that Markov was progressing well and would be ready to play this season. If that hasn't happened, then maybe a new doctor is required, but I'm not gonna blame the GM for that.

Why not talk about the Kaberle deal and it's salary implications?

Sure... 4.25 million for a 45-50 pt puck moving defenceman who plays on average 16-18 minutes per game when we have a normal lineup... lets talk about that... and analyze the cap hit of similar puck moving defencemenI posted this elsewhere.

I'm gonna pull defencemen who are primarily puck movers, signed UFA contracts, and compare them to Kaberle. Good and bad. (Cutoffs 4.75 million and 3.75 million cap hit difference of 500K from Kaberle's salary either way).

Clearly Better than Kaberle IMO - 4 players

One thing to note, Streit was signed under a much lower salary cap in 2008, Wideman in 2009, and Ehrhoff would be a much larger cap hit if his contract wasn't one of those mega front load deals.

Joni Pitkanen. 4.5 million cap hit

35 pts in 10-11 in 25 minutes (contract year). Signed July 1, 2011

Currently 12 pts in 21 games in 22:36 of ice time

Mark Streit - 4.1 cap hit

62 pts in 07-08 in 17 minutes of ice time

Currently 24 pts in 43 games and 23:00 of ice time

Dennis Wideman - 3.873 cap hit

50 pts in contract year 24:00 of ice

Currently 31 pts in 44 games and 24:21 of ice time

Christian Ehrhoff at 4.00 cap hit (note the cap hit lowered by long, front loaded deal.. 18 million in first two years, 1 million each in last three years)

50 pts in contract year 23:59

17 pts in 37 games this year 23:36

About the same...IMO - 3 players

Notes: All 3 signed signed under a much lower salary cap.

John-Michael Liles at 4.2 million 32 pts in 2007-08 in contract year 19:40 of ice time

Currently 21 pts in 32 games at 21:32 of ice time

Recently traded for a 2nd round pick

Tom Gilbert at 4.0 cap hit

33 pts in 07-08 and 22:00 of ice

Current 15pts and 23:00 of ice

*less production but able to eat more minutes, lets call it a wash*

Andrej Meszaros at 4.0 cap hit

36 pts in 07-08 and 20:11 minutes in contract year

current 16 pts in 40 games and 20:40 minutes

*see Gilbert*

Clearly worse IMO

Hainsey, Ballard signed when cap was lower.

Ed Jovanovski at 4.125 cap hit

14 pts in 50 games in contract year - 20:29 of ice

Currently 8 pts in 43 games - 16:37 of ice

Ron Hainsey at 4.5 cap hit

(32 pts and 22 minutes per game in 07-08, signed July 2008)

Currently 6 pts in 28 games, and 21:16 of ice time.

Keith Ballard at 4.2 cap hit

34 pts in 08-09 and 22:00 of ice time

Currently 7 pts in 41 games and 15:00 of ice time

Marek Zidlicky at 4.0 cap hit.

24 pts in 46 games at 21:46 of ice time in contract year

current 11 in 33 at 20:00 of ice time.

*Plus/minus numbers are awful with this ice time, and the production is lower than Kaberle.*

Pavel Kubina 38 pts in contract year at 22minutes of ice

Current 10 pts in 41 games at 19:30 of ice

This is the type of UFA money that gets thrown around ever single year for dmen who are seen as puck movers and can add offence. Kaberle's 4.25 is not that bad.

Note also, I'm not cherry picking good or bad contracts; I looked at all the puck movers in the range specified.

Seems to me that 4.25 for what Kaberle brings is fair market value for that type of player. 16 games, 9 pts -1 since joining Montreal.

Why not talk about the PR mess they are in due to his lack of leadership?

etc

etc

Sure and I did talk about that.... and the PR mess and lack of direction are why he needs to be replaced. I've admitted as such. I just don't think the individual moves are as bad as people claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My main issue with PG when it comes to trading away our talent is he doesn't know how to maximize the return. Sure, Price over Halak, but as much as some people love Eller, we will never know what we might have gotten for Halak because it is clear he didn't ask around. Same goes for Cammy. Bourque might be a reasonable return, but did we really have to give up Cammy for him? Calgary was trying to dump him all season. Bob Mac has confirmed several times that Cammy was never shopped around and that there were other good players out there we might have gotten for him.

All these fantasy drafts for guys like Getzlaf would have been far more likey to happen if we had Cammy to headline the trade. We have very little left in the cupboard of any real value without touching our core players (Price, Subban, etc). Gomez has zero value. Gionta now has zero value.

We had Cammy and we shot our load on the first chick who winked at us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gionta has zero value?

I... don't know where to begin there.

How about that he's out for the year and has 2 years left at $5m per when his highest offer other than the Habs was $4m

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...