2012 NHL Entry Draft talk

[Commandant]

No Profile today, but a Memorial Cup Preview instead.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/15/2012-memorial-cup-preview/

[thib46]

Damphouse was a pretty good hockey player and did play against some very good defensemen in his career. That should count a little bit when expressing a hockey opinion.

[DON]

Damphouse was a pretty good hockey player and did play against some very good defensemen in his career. That should count a little bit when expressing a hockey opinion.

You could be 100% correct, but i am skeptical that Vincent would have much more a grip on scouting than a layman, even after being a very good player?

I am very high on Dumba as a prospect, but he, in his own words even, needs much work in the defensive zone, but i am one who would risk picking him for sure if Galchenyuk is gone in first 2 picks.

But Habs have a big well paid scouting dept to make the final call on who is worthy of top 3 pick. will see in 5-6 weeks.

[DON]

Ribs...Lats. Those are the two that come to mind. Do these constitute 'good careers with the Habs?' Hmmm.

Not Lats, who has hardly played in several years.

And i gag when i say this, but Riberio has had a very solid career for sure, but still wouldnt want him back.

[nihilz]

Ribs...Lats. Those are the two that come to mind. Do these constitute 'good careers with the Habs?' Hmmm.

Ribiero was at around 115-120 games experience before he became an actual impact player. And, yes. It sucks he was a clubbing douche and not a dedicated professional hockey player while in town.

Lats is Dagenais with more mobility and less snip. His body mechanics are poo, and its too bad, he had potential. Unfortunate he was rushed(understatement) cause his name was Gui and he was big. I doubt Lats will ever be healthy enough consistently to have a productive and effective career.

But yes, Latendresse was the last player that was hyped as a teenager that I can recall. His impact was greatly exaggerated as he only filled voids, potential aside.

And, Carey Price, of course.

[illWill]

Ribiero was at around 115-120 games experience before he became an actual impact player. And, yes. It sucks he was a clubbing douche and not a dedicated professional hockey player while in town.

Ribiero is still a confirmed clubbing douche, but the only difference now is he has a different area code. The Stars were in PEI for training camp in the fall and some of them were out at a popular local club. A good friend of mine is a bartender there and said that Ribiero ordered a drink and argued the volume of actual alcohol poured in it. He did so in a way as if saying, "I think I know what this drink is supposed to taste like", while my friend was like " I think I know what I'm doing". And then to top it off Money Bags Mike passed him one American dollar afterwards and said something to the effect of "there ya go brother". So I think it's one of those cases where he is the same guy but out of the media spotlight.

[Commandant]

Today we look at Jordan Schmaltz

http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/16/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-40-jordan-schmaltz/

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ribiero is still a confirmed clubbing douche, but the only difference now is he has a different area code. The Stars were in PEI for training camp in the fall and some of them were out at a popular local club. A good friend of mine is a bartender there and said that Ribiero ordered a drink and argued the volume of actual alcohol poured in it. He did so in a way as if saying, "I think I know what this drink is supposed to taste like", while my friend was like " I think I know what I'm doing". And then to top it off Money Bags Mike passed him one American dollar afterwards and said something to the effect of "there ya go brother". So I think it's one of those cases where he is the same guy but out of the media spotlight.

That 'douche' has had rather massively superior on-ice production to any Habs's centreman over the past decade. Who cares what he's like in clubs? He never should have been dealt and fans should stop kidding themselves that his moral failings somehow make us better off without him. That deal crippled us at C and continues to do so to this day. There's no silver lining in a mistake that disastrous.

[DON]

That 'douche' has had rather massively superior on-ice production to any Habs's centreman over the past decade. Who cares what he's like in clubs? He never should have been dealt and fans should stop kidding themselves that his moral failings somehow make us better off without him. That deal crippled us at C and continues to do so to this day. There's no silver lining in a mistake that disastrous.

I was very happy he got the boot at the time and i wouldnt want him back still.

I think you might be overstating the move a bit?, it is very similar to Avery getting punted, just 2 classy guys.

[bbp]

I was very happy he got the boot at the time and i wouldnt want him back still.

I think you might be overstating the move a bit?, it is very similar to Avery getting punted, just 2 classy guys.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Avery, but Riberio is not the type of player I would want in the dressing room and am happy he isn't there.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

It's a very interesting debate but I'd tend to side with CC here. One one hand, we have people who complain about not hiring a "winning" coach regardless of language. Then, on the other hand we have people who don't care what skills a player has if he's a supposed cancer in the locker room. It's very hard to build a "winning" team without some of these types of players because with skill comes ego. If anything, it is up to the coach to get them to play up to their full potential. There are many teams in the league, where "problem" players succeed.

Take a look at Claude Giroux for instance. Despite being the great player he is, you can tell that he does have some sort of an attitude problem. What he did to Zubrus is no isolated incident, when he gets angry his temper gets the best of him. With that being said, his teammates feel as though he is a leader on the team. I'm not saying it's always the case but even with a player like Ribeiro, I often think the fans' and media's perception of a player's negative impact in the locker room is overstated. I know if I was a teammate of his, I sincerely would not care how much of a dick Ribeiro could be at a club, or even what he did in his personal time off the ice, as long as he performed when the puck was dropped. Whether or not he did this to his full potential in Montreal is a whole other argument. But my point is, if anything, it has been the Montreal Canadiens' organization who tries to get rid of these players, it's generally not the teammates requesting for them to be shipped out. CC is right in that if you are going to ship out a player of Ribeiro's caliber for a player of Ninimaa's quality, then the move was simply a mistake... Similar to the hiring of a winning coach, our main goal is to be a winning team and shipping a player of Ribeiro's skill set for Ninimaa crippled the team regardless of his on ice and off ice antics.

[Commandant]

Remember how Ribeiro was traded at the start of training camp?

You know how the team always has the annual golf tournament right before training camp?

Wanna know the real reason the guy was traded?

Ribeiro was caught in a compromising position, in a closet, with one of Jean Beliveau's granddaughters.

[illWill]

That 'douche' has had rather massively superior on-ice production to any Habs's centreman over the past decade. Who cares what he's like in clubs? He never should have been dealt and fans should stop kidding themselves that his moral failings somehow make us better off without him. That deal crippled us at C and continues to do so to this day. There's no silver lining in a mistake that disastrous.

There's no question that the trade was a terrible one. I remember thinking " in Gainey we trust". For whatever reason he had, I believed it was for the best of the team. But to get back an aging, overpaid defenseman who we would never really utilize or get anything out of, is nothing short of highway robbery. However, at the same time, do you really want somebody like Ribiero as one of the faces of our franchise? Can you imagine him hoisting the Stanley Cup over his head.....with any team ever? The Canadiens are THE classiest organizations of them all and regardless of on-ice talent, we will not be represented by somebody who is obviously a douche. We have been shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite of skill level.

Remember how Ribeiro was traded at the start of training camp?

You know how the team always has the annual golf tournament right before training camp?

Wanna know the real reason the guy was traded?

Ribeiro was caught in a compromising position, in a closet, with one of Jean Beliveau's granddaughters.

If this is 100% true, then that is awesome. Pics of granddaughter? See, that is something that a horny frat boy would do, not a supposed leader of the greatest hockey team in history.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Ribeiro was caught in a compromising position, in a closet, with one of Jean Beliveau's granddaughters.

Really, it matters how old the granddaughter was.

If she was 18 or older, this should have been a non-issue.

[hab29RETIRED]

There's no question that the trade was a terrible one. I remember thinking " in Gainey we trust". For whatever reason he had, I believed it was for the best of the team. But to get back an aging, overpaid defenseman who we would never really utilize or get anything out of, is nothing short of highway robbery. However, at the same time, do you really want somebody like Ribiero as one of the faces of our franchise? Can you imagine him hoisting the Stanley Cup over his head.....with any team ever? The Canadiens are THE classiest organizations of them all and regardless of on-ice talent, we will not be represented by somebody who is obviously a douche. We have been shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite of skill level. If this is 100% true, then that is awesome. Pics of granddaughter? See, that is something that a horny frat boy would do, not a supposed leader of the greatest hockey team in history.

There is no question that Ribeiro HAD to be traded. The guy was a bum (this is just from his on-ice/dressing antics point of view - I hadn't heard anything about the granddaughter until now) and from all reports he and the three amigos didn't get along with the koivu group. however, this was the trade where I stopped believing in Gainey. Ribeiro HAD to be traded. The guy was and is a punk and I also can't see him ever being a winner, unless its a passenger like Leeman was on the habs 93' win. But the trade was horrible. It was right up there with one of the worst trades a GM has ever made - right up there with the Gomez deal or the Roy deal.

Niniemma was finished. It was a horrible return for a punk that we need to move, but we should have been able to get a facimile of a hockey player. The habs have a history of making stupid trades like this - Carbo and Roy are ones that come quickly to mind.

IMO Gainey made two Solid trades - Kovy and Gorges/MaxPac draft pick. A bunch of mediocore trades and some horrible trades.

[Commandant]

Nicolas Kerdiles, a very intriguing prospect and one who I had rated higher than my colleagues. I wouldn't mind the Habs taking him, even at 32.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/17/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-41-nicolas-kerdiles/

[DON]

Nicolas Kerdiles, a very intriguing prospect and one who I had rated higher than my colleagues. I wouldn't mind the Habs taking him, even at 32.

http://lastwordonspo...colas-kerdiles/

ISS had him 21st NA skater, CS has 29th and Bob had him at 38th and the 5 point effort in U18 gold medal game wouldnt do anything but raise his status a bit, so will be no surprise to see go anywhere from 30-to-40.

And just another example of why this class dosent seem as thin as some are saying. Timmins should (barring trades) have a sweet haul of 3 quality prospects with 32nd-51st and 63rd picks?

[Commandant]

The more I do the profiles, and assemble the ranks, and I'm looking at guys in the 50s (we've done our list up to 60 right now).... that I want, and guys I haven't even put on that list that are good... I realize this isn't a thin class.

There are good players I haven't even covered yet and I'm already at 41.

I really think its the injuries that are making the class seem weaker than it is.

Plus there is Mark Jankowski (a guy we will do last as an honourable mention) which will be a different kind of article. I see him on a lot of rankings boards. Unfortunately because of the league he played in, not one of us working on these profiles has actually seen the kid play. So my last profile closer to draft day will be an honourable mention of him, stating what we've read in other reports and seen on youtube, but not giving him an actual "Rank" because we have a hard time judging him.

[DON]

The more I do the profiles, and assemble the ranks, and I'm looking at guys in the 50s (we've done our list up to 60 right now).... that I want, and guys I haven't even put on that list that are good... I realize this isn't a thin class.

There are good players I haven't even covered yet and I'm already at 41.

I really think its the injuries that are making the class seem weaker than it is.

Plus there is Mark Jankowski (a guy we will do last as an honourable mention) which will be a different kind of article. I see him on a lot of rankings boards. Unfortunately because of the league he played in, not one of us working on these profiles has actually seen the kid play. So my last profile closer to draft day will be an honourable mention of him, stating what we've read in other reports and seen on youtube, but not giving him an actual "Rank" because we have a hard time judging him.

Ya, i noted Jankowski plays quebec high school or something of the like and Button also thought him hard to judge due to competition level, but has all the parts (but so did/does Ben Pouliot).

Am curious;

I see many question Craig Button's rankings as being out to lunch, but he commented his is not a mock draft per say and more a long term prospect forcast, Whereas the TSN/McKenzie draft rank is easy to look back on and see as fairly accurate; do you know how Button's rankings have played out?

He has been involved with prospects for a long time now and must be pretty good at talent projection by now, any idea?

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The Canadiens are THE classiest organizations of them all and regardless of on-ice talent, we will not be represented by somebody who is obviously a douche. We have been shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite of skill level.

There is no question that Ribeiro HAD to be traded.

however, this was the trade where I stopped believing in Gainey.

Ribeiro HAD to be traded.

But the trade was horrible.

It was right up there with one of the worst trades a GM has ever made - right up there with the Gomez deal or the Roy deal.

Niniemma was finished.

It was a horrible return for a punk that we need to move, but we should have been able to get a facimile of a hockey player.

The habs have a history of making stupid trades like this - Carbo and Roy are ones that come quickly to mind.

I'm sorry to hijack the thread as it's off topic, so I'll try to make this my last post on the topic... But for all the lines that I quoted... Does no one else think that this could be the problem? I'm all fine and dandy with being the classiest organization in the sport, but "shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite skill" may make for a classy organization, but not necessarily a winning one.

If our fan base knows when players like Ribeiro, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn need to be shipped out of town because of their attitude problems, then I can assure you that any general manager with any type of sense will know this as well. In conducting these matters in the manner in which they have been, we simply deteriorate the value of said players (and many more). I don't know, on one hand we are saying that he HAD to be traded, and then on the other we are saying the deal should have been made, just in return for a BETTER player. The problem is that if he HAD to be traded, then his value goes down the drain. In these specific situations I think of the saying "beggers can't be choosers" and it's basically a lose-lose situation. I don't know the dynamics of the situation within the locker room, but it seems to me that Ribeiro, Grabovski and Kostitsyn have all embraced their new teams with open arms. In addition, the teams have responded quite positively towards them. Unless the media and pressure is simply too much in this city, then I don't see why they could not have flourished here. One can argue about a change of scenery, but then how come we never get these skilled players who just needed a change of scenery? I agree that we are a classy organization and I am happy with that, but at some point you just need to have a coach and general manager who will give them a slap on the back of the head and get them on the right track... instead of trading these skilled players for nothing in return. Because as I said, other teams and their general managers are all too happy to know that we are the "classiest' organization around and want nothing to do with these types of players.

[DON]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread as it's off topic, so I'll try to make this my last post on the topic... But for all the lines that I quoted... Does no one else think that this could be the problem? I'm all fine and dandy with being the classiest organization in the sport, but "shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite skill" may make for a classy organization, but not necessarily a winning one.

If our fan base knows when players like Ribeiro, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn need to be shipped out of town because of their attitude problems, then I can assure you that any general manager with any type of sense will know this as well. In conducting these matters in the manner in which they have been, we simply deteriorate the value of said players (and many more). I don't know, on one hand we are saying that he HAD to be traded, and then on the other we are saying the deal should have been made, just in return for a BETTER player. The problem is that if he HAD to be traded, then his value goes down the drain. In these specific situations I think of the saying "beggers can't be choosers" and it's basically a lose-lose situation. I don't know the dynamics of the situation within the locker room, but it seems to me that Ribeiro, Grabovski and Kostitsyn have all embraced their new teams with open arms. In addition, the teams have responded quite positively towards them. Unless the media and pressure is simply too much in this city, then I don't see why they could not have flourished here. One can argue about a change of scenery, but then how come we never get these skilled players who just needed a change of scenery? I agree that we are a classy organization and I am happy with that, but at some point you just need to have a coach and general manager who will give them a slap on the back of the head and get them on the right track... instead of trading these skilled players for nothing in return. Because as I said, other teams and their general managers are all too happy to know that we are the "classiest' organization around and want nothing to do with these types of players.

You forgot to include Patrick Roy in dearly departed/bad trade.

Classiest organization? Dont know if i buy that, you would have to poll all non Hab diehard fans for a more unbiased ranking. Likely are exact same as 90% of others.

All teams ship out players for personal reasons and all teams regret a couple of those, no big deal. Habs are again likely in the middle of pack for traded players.

But from what is said, Bergevin and Dudley may be the perfect upgrade on Pro-Player assessments on own and other teams; that maybe Gauthier and Gainey werent best at??

Will see hw plays out.

[hab29RETIRED]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread as it's off topic, so I'll try to make this my last post on the topic... But for all the lines that I quoted... Does no one else think that this could be the problem? I'm all fine and dandy with being the classiest organization in the sport, but "shipping douches out of here left and right for the last decade despite skill" may make for a classy organization, but not necessarily a winning one. If our fan base knows when players like Ribeiro, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn need to be shipped out of town because of their attitude problems, then I can assure you that any general manager with any type of sense will know this as well. In conducting these matters in the manner in which they have been, we simply deteriorate the value of said players (and many more). I don't know, on one hand we are saying that he HAD to be traded, and then on the other we are saying the deal should have been made, just in return for a BETTER player. The problem is that if he HAD to be traded, then his value goes down the drain. In these specific situations I think of the saying "beggers can't be choosers" and it's basically a lose-lose situation. I don't know the dynamics of the situation within the locker room, but it seems to me that Ribeiro, Grabovski and Kostitsyn have all embraced their new teams with open arms. In addition, the teams have responded quite positively towards them. Unless the media and pressure is simply too much in this city, then I don't see why they could not have flourished here. One can argue about a change of scenery, but then how come we never get these skilled players who just needed a change of scenery? I agree that we are a classy organization and I am happy with that, but at some point you just need to have a coach and general manager who will give them a slap on the back of the head and get them on the right track... instead of trading these skilled players for nothing in return. Because as I said, other teams and their general managers are all too happy to know that we are the "classiest' organization around

and want nothing to do with these types of players.

When i said Ribeiro HAD to be traded, I didn't mean he needed to be traded in training camp. You have to play the player, put him in a position to produce, put up with the crap and character flaws he has and then trade his spoilt ass ASAP. Issue with Ribeiro was that it was widely reported that he and his fellow amigos didn't get along with the rest of the core.

SK74 was a different situation. he wasn't in the league as long as Ribeiro. Martin mishandled him by using him as an example from the first day of training camp without trying to determine what strings to pull. A coach needs to understand a player and figure out with buttons to push, not come in swearing and ragging on a guy on the first day of training camp.

Both cases though (along with Lats) were a result of Gainey and the habs rushing a young player before they were ready and mature enough to be successful long term. Its a miracle Price turned out well and they almost messed up MaxPac by keeping him in the NHL and having Martin try and turn him into a 3rd/4th liner. I was pushing for the habs to send him to Hamilton a year earlier then they finally did and MaxPac developed into the player he is by gaining confidence in being able to succeed against AHL competition and playing for a coach that nurtured and help develop him according to his skillset. It's asinine as Hunter trying to turn Ovechekin from a goal scorer to a shot blocker.

[hab29RETIRED]

You forgot to include Patrick Roy in dearly departed/bad trade.

Classiest organization? Dont know if i buy that, you would have to poll all non Hab diehard fans for a more unbiased ranking. Likely are exact same as 90% of others.

All teams ship out players for personal reasons and all teams regret a couple of those, no big deal. Habs are again likely in the middle of pack for traded players.

But from what is said, Bergevin and Dudley may be the perfect upgrade on Pro-Player assessments on own and other teams; that maybe Gauthier and Gainey werent best at??

Will see hw plays out.

I agree. I love the habs, but I wouldn't call the organization classy. But other then beliveau there aren't many habs great that retired on good terms. Richard was pushed out. Harvey and Plante left on bad terms. Lafleur was forced to retire. Robinson was screwed around. The way Gainey dumped Koivu but wanted to keep Kovolev was a joke.

It also took a ridiculous amount of time to retire Dryden, Robinson, Gainey's (still love and respect the player - which I can't say for Mario Tremblay - but despise him as a GM), Boom Boom's, dickie moore, the road runner and the senator's numbers.

When they do have ceremony they do it well, but I would say this organization is just paranoid of having to deal with controversy then being classy. This has led to stupid knee jerk reactions (stupid trades of Chelios, Carbo, Roy, Ribeiro, SK74, Cammy).

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The Habs are less classy and more prestigious.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't give a damn whether a player is 'classy.' I care about whether they help the team win hockey games. Period. And I think Ribeiro's 0.91 points per game since 07-08 would have helped us win hockey games (Pleks is significantly lower at .71, incidentally, although I agree that he is a better all around player). I find it bizarre that fans of a team that has had a crippling problem at the C position for the past decade cheerfully regard us as better off without a .91 PPG player at C.

This same philosophy that 'problem' players must immediately be shipped out regardless of return also led the organization to dump Carbo and superstar Chris Chelios (!!!!). The policy is clearly folly once you add up the bodies on the floor: Chelios for Savard; Carbo for nothing; Sergei Kostitsyn for nothing; Grabs for nothing; Ribeiro for nothing. And there's probably others I'm forgetting.

As for Ribs, it may well be that he was at war with Koivu, in which case I suppose Habs29 is right and he had to go...but when you consider that Koivu also apparently hated Grabovski, it raises a different set of problems. Accomodating Koivu's distaste for young, talented but immature C consequently cost us the two best centremen (after Pleks) that the organization developed over Gainey's entire tenure.

Finally, don't forget that, if we keep Ribeiro and he emerges as he did in Dallas, then in principle we don't need to make the trade for Gomez, with all that that has wrought.

Our ongoing headaches at C are, frankly, fitting. They are an appropriate and merited consequence of an irresponsible policy of jettisoning young players the minute they show immature or 'classless' behaviour. The stupidity of the policy becomes cataclysmic when coupled with the Habs' ridiculous refusal to assign someone full-time to the job of overseeing player development. Not only do we hold kids to some saintly standard, but we fail to provide them with mentorship.

It's folly upon folly upon folly. And it's cost us big. Hopefully Bergevin shows a greater awareness of the need to help turn 23 year olds into responsible pros, rather than jettison them when they make mistakes.